Hi

Going to make a medium sized wooden gate. I plan to make a simple butt
joined frame for the gate itself, and top it with a strip of
triangular timber about twice the width to shed water. I want to fit a
bunch of small timber to fill the empty space, but not sure what would
be the best way to fix it, and any other hints on idealising the
details would be welcome. It'll be a full height job, and security
isnt critical.

cheers,
NT

On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:28:05 -0700 (PDT), NT had
this to say:

Hi

Going to make a medium sized wooden gate. I plan to make a simple butt
joined frame for the gate itself, and top it with a strip of
triangular timber about twice the width to shed water. I want to fit a
bunch of small timber to fill the empty space, but not sure what would
be the best way to fix it, and any other hints on idealising the
details would be welcome. It'll be a full height job, and security
isnt critical.

cheers,
NT

It would really help if you could define "medium sized", "small
timber" and "full height".

"security isnt critical" - does that mean it's purely ornamental?

--
Frank Erskine

NT wrote:

Going to make a medium sized wooden gate. I plan to make a simple butt
joined frame for the gate itself, and top it with a strip of

Butt jointed sounds like a rather weak construction for any sort of gate...

Lap jointed, or mortice and tenon would give a much stiffer result.

triangular timber about twice the width to shed water. I want to fit a
bunch of small timber to fill the empty space, but not sure what would
be the best way to fix it, and any other hints on idealising the
details would be welcome. It'll be a full height job, and security
isnt critical.


If you are going to infill the space, would it not be simpler to do a
ledge and brace type of construction (i.e. top middle and bottom rails,
with a couple of diagonal braces, and then planks nailed/screwed to one
side of them)?

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-------------------------




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Jun 22, 11:56*pm, Frank Erskine
wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:28:05 -0700 (PDT), NT had
this to say:

Hi

Going to make a medium sized wooden gate. I plan to make a simple butt
joined frame for the gate itself, and top it with a strip of
triangular timber about twice the width to shed water. I want to fit a
bunch of small timber to fill the empty space, but not sure what would
be the best way to fix it, and any other hints on idealising the
details would be welcome. It'll be a full height job, and security
isnt critical.

cheers,
NT

It would really help if you could define "medium sized", "small
timber" and "full height".

"security isnt critical" - does that mean it's purely ornamental?

Sorry It'll be about 6'-7' high and 2'6"-3' wide. The small infill
will be an open pattern of something like 1x1 to 1.5x1.5 timber.

Re security, it wont provide much, but some casual deterrent value is
useful.


NT

On Jun 23, 1:53*am, John Rumm wrote:
NT wrote:

Going to make a medium sized wooden gate. I plan to make a simple butt
joined frame for the gate itself, and top it with a strip of

Butt jointed sounds like a rather weak construction for any sort of gate....

Lap jointed, or mortice and tenon would give a much stiffer result.

You dont think those would compromise rot resistance somewhat? The
gate will never be painted.

I would think butt jointed 2x4 would be stiff enough, different matter
if it were just 2x2.


triangular timber about twice the width to shed water. I want to fit a
bunch of small timber to fill the empty space, but not sure what would
be the best way to fix it, and any other hints on idealising the
details would be welcome. It'll be a full height job, and security
isnt critical.

If you are going to infill the space, would it not be simpler to do a
ledge and brace type of construction (i.e. top middle and bottom rails,
with a couple of diagonal braces, and then planks nailed/screwed to one
side of them)?

The style really wouldnt fit here. The gate needs to be seethrough,
and something relatively modern.


NT

"NT" wrote in message
...
On Jun 23, 1:53 am, John Rumm wrote:
NT wrote:

Going to make a medium sized wooden gate. I plan to make a simple butt
joined frame for the gate itself, and top it with a strip of

Butt jointed sounds like a rather weak construction for any sort of
gate...

Lap jointed, or mortice and tenon would give a much stiffer result.

You dont think those would compromise rot resistance somewhat? The
gate will never be painted.

I would think butt jointed 2x4 would be stiff enough, different matter
if it were just 2x2.


triangular timber about twice the width to shed water. I want to fit a
bunch of small timber to fill the empty space, but not sure what would
be the best way to fix it, and any other hints on idealising the
details would be welcome. It'll be a full height job, and security
isnt critical.

If you are going to infill the space, would it not be simpler to do a
ledge and brace type of construction (i.e. top middle and bottom rails,
with a couple of diagonal braces, and then planks nailed/screwed to one
side of them)?

The style really wouldnt fit here. The gate needs to be seethrough,
and something relatively modern.


NT

You don't say how you are making the butt joints. Dowel? Biscuit? Metal
brackets? If you don't want to make mortise and tenon joints then
cross-halvings are reasonably quick using a circular saw.

You need diagonal bracing to stop your rectangular structure turning into a
parallelogram.

I have some picket fences with gates in the same style. A bit like the ledge
and brace shown above, but with alternate verticals missing. You get some
stiffening from screwed and glued lap joints between the verticals and
horizontals, but I'd still include a diagonal brace.

NT wrote:


The style really wouldnt fit here. The gate needs to be seethrough,
and something relatively modern.


My brother made me a gate for my 40th - standard Z and uprights frame
shape with jigsawed cutouts top and bottom in exterior MDF to give a
kind of 'grass and trees' top and bottom.

Has lasted 10 years so far.

On Jun 24, 12:42*am, "newshound" wrote:
"NT" wrote in message

...



On Jun 23, 1:53 am, John Rumm wrote:
NT wrote:

Going to make a medium sized wooden gate. I plan to make a simple butt
joined frame for the gate itself, and top it with a strip of

Butt jointed sounds like a rather weak construction for any sort of
gate...

Lap jointed, or mortice and tenon would give a much stiffer result.

You dont think those would compromise rot resistance somewhat? The
gate will never be painted.

I would think butt jointed 2x4 would be stiff enough, different matter
if it were just 2x2.

triangular timber about twice the width to shed water. I want to fit a
bunch of small timber to fill the empty space, but not sure what would
be the best way to fix it, and any other hints on idealising the
details would be welcome. It'll be a full height job, and security
isnt critical.

If you are going to infill the space, would it not be simpler to do a
ledge and brace type of construction (i.e. top middle and bottom rails,
with a couple of diagonal braces, and then planks nailed/screwed to one
side of them)?

The style really wouldnt fit here. The gate needs to be seethrough,
and something relatively modern.

NT

You don't say how you are making the butt joints. Dowel? Biscuit? Metal
brackets? If you don't want to make mortise and tenon joints then
cross-halvings are reasonably quick using a circular saw.

I want it to last so the less holing the better. Probably just 6"
screws through the ends.


You need diagonal bracing to stop your rectangular structure turning into a
parallelogram.

with 2x4? I'm not convinced I do if the joints are tight. One thing's
for sure though, I don't want the appearance of a big angled bracing
plank. If there's any bracing it'll be small corner pieces.

The remaining question is how to attach the 1x1 infill. Perhaps just
PU glue, that way there are no holes to rot. Maybe some pins too.

thanks,
NT

You don't say how you are making the butt joints. Dowel? Biscuit? Metal
brackets? If you don't want to make mortise and tenon joints then
cross-halvings are reasonably quick using a circular saw.

I want it to last so the less holing the better. Probably just 6"
screws through the ends.


With respect, it isn't really a joint if you are relying on "bite" from
screws going along the grain, even if it is glued as well. Or do you mean
screws at an angle going back into the outer timber, i.e. going partly
across the grain. The nearest you will see commercially to your type of
joint is the "pine bed frame" construction where the machine screw going
along the grain goes into the side of a metal cylinder going across the
timber.

NT wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:42 am, "newshound" wrote:
"NT" wrote in message

...



On Jun 23, 1:53 am, John Rumm wrote:
NT wrote:

Going to make a medium sized wooden gate. I plan to make a simple
butt joined frame for the gate itself, and top it with a strip of

Butt jointed sounds like a rather weak construction for any sort of
gate...

Lap jointed, or mortice and tenon would give a much stiffer result.

You dont think those would compromise rot resistance somewhat? The
gate will never be painted.

I would think butt jointed 2x4 would be stiff enough, different
matter if it were just 2x2.

triangular timber about twice the width to shed water. I want to
fit a bunch of small timber to fill the empty space, but not sure
what would be the best way to fix it, and any other hints on
idealising the details would be welcome. It'll be a full height
job, and security isnt critical.

If you are going to infill the space, would it not be simpler to
do a ledge and brace type of construction (i.e. top middle and
bottom rails, with a couple of diagonal braces, and then planks
nailed/screwed to one side of them)?

The style really wouldnt fit here. The gate needs to be seethrough,
and something relatively modern.

NT

You don't say how you are making the butt joints. Dowel? Biscuit?
Metal brackets? If you don't want to make mortise and tenon joints
then cross-halvings are reasonably quick using a circular saw.

I want it to last so the less holing the better. Probably just 6"
screws through the ends.


You need diagonal bracing to stop your rectangular structure turning
into a parallelogram.

with 2x4? I'm not convinced I do if the joints are tight. One thing's
for sure though, I don't want the appearance of a big angled bracing
plank. If there's any bracing it'll be small corner pieces.

6" screws in a 2 x 4 frame would be fine for say a window frame. or even a
deck frame. They however don't ever move & a gate does. Small corner
braces won't do the job. The side opposite the hinges will drop & the gate
won't close/open properly.

The large diagonal braces are there to stop the rectangle becoming a
parallelogram .


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Jun 26, 12:57*am, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
NT wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:42 am, "newshound" wrote:
"NT" wrote in message
....
On Jun 23, 1:53 am, John Rumm wrote:
NT wrote:

Going to make a medium sized wooden gate. I plan to make a simple
butt joined frame for the gate itself, and top it with a strip of

Butt jointed sounds like a rather weak construction for any sort of
gate...

Lap jointed, or mortice and tenon would give a much stiffer result.

You dont think those would compromise rot resistance somewhat? The
gate will never be painted.

I would think butt jointed 2x4 would be stiff enough, different
matter if it were just 2x2.

triangular timber about twice the width to shed water. I want to
fit a bunch of small timber to fill the empty space, but not sure
what would be the best way to fix it, and any other hints on
idealising the details would be welcome. It'll be a full height
job, and security isnt critical.

If you are going to infill the space, would it not be simpler to
do a ledge and brace type of construction (i.e. top middle and
bottom rails, with a couple of diagonal braces, and then planks
nailed/screwed to one side of them)?

The style really wouldnt fit here. The gate needs to be seethrough,
and something relatively modern.

NT

You don't say how you are making the butt joints. Dowel? Biscuit?
Metal brackets? If you don't want to make mortise and tenon joints
then cross-halvings are reasonably quick using a circular saw.

I want it to last so the less holing the better. Probably just 6"
screws through the ends.

You need diagonal bracing to stop your rectangular structure turning
into a parallelogram.

with 2x4? I'm not convinced I do if the joints are tight. One thing's
for sure though, I don't want the appearance of a big angled bracing
plank. If there's any bracing it'll be small corner pieces.

6" screws in a 2 x 4 frame would be fine for say a window frame. or even a
deck frame. *They however don't ever move & a gate does. *Small corner
braces won't do the job. *The side opposite the hinges will drop & the gate
won't close/open properly.

The large diagonal braces are there to stop the rectangle becoming a
parallelogram .

Cheers. Maybe I'd best re-examine the existing gate then, I thought it
was 2x3 frame with no bracing whatever, and there was no troublesome
distortion until it eventually rotted & fell apart.

Will report back.


NT

On Jun 26, 12:47*pm, NT wrote:
On Jun 26, 12:57*am, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
NT wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:42 am, "newshound" wrote:
"NT" wrote in message
...
On Jun 23, 1:53 am, John Rumm wrote:
NT wrote:

Going to make a medium sized wooden gate. I plan to make a simple
butt joined frame for the gate itself, and top it with a strip of

Butt jointed sounds like a rather weak construction for any sort of
gate...

Lap jointed, or mortice and tenon would give a much stiffer result..

You dont think those would compromise rot resistance somewhat? The
gate will never be painted.

I would think butt jointed 2x4 would be stiff enough, different
matter if it were just 2x2.

triangular timber about twice the width to shed water. I want to
fit a bunch of small timber to fill the empty space, but not sure
what would be the best way to fix it, and any other hints on
idealising the details would be welcome. It'll be a full height
job, and security isnt critical.

If you are going to infill the space, would it not be simpler to
do a ledge and brace type of construction (i.e. top middle and
bottom rails, with a couple of diagonal braces, and then planks
nailed/screwed to one side of them)?

The style really wouldnt fit here. The gate needs to be seethrough,
and something relatively modern.

NT

You don't say how you are making the butt joints. Dowel? Biscuit?
Metal brackets? If you don't want to make mortise and tenon joints
then cross-halvings are reasonably quick using a circular saw.

I want it to last so the less holing the better. Probably just 6"
screws through the ends.

You need diagonal bracing to stop your rectangular structure turning
into a parallelogram.

with 2x4? I'm not convinced I do if the joints are tight. One thing's
for sure though, I don't want the appearance of a big angled bracing
plank. If there's any bracing it'll be small corner pieces.

6" screws in a 2 x 4 frame would be fine for say a window frame. or even a
deck frame. *They however don't ever move & a gate does. *Small corner
braces won't do the job. *The side opposite the hinges will drop & the gate
won't close/open properly.

The large diagonal braces are there to stop the rectangle becoming a
parallelogram .

Cheers. Maybe I'd best re-examine the existing gate then, I thought it
was 2x3 frame with no bracing whatever, and there was no troublesome
distortion until it eventually rotted & fell apart.

Will report back.

NT


OK, the existing one is a 2x3 frame lap jointed with 4 nails in each
corner, no added bracing, and it was fine until rotted.

I guess I'd better do likewise then, with 2x4. Thanks,


NT

NT wrote:
On Jun 26, 12:47 pm, NT wrote:
On Jun 26, 12:57 am, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
NT wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:42 am, "newshound" wrote:
"NT" wrote in message
...
On Jun 23, 1:53 am, John Rumm wrote:
NT wrote:

Going to make a medium sized wooden gate. I plan to make a simple
butt joined frame for the gate itself, and top it with a strip of
Butt jointed sounds like a rather weak construction for any sort of
gate...
Lap jointed, or mortice and tenon would give a much stiffer result.
You dont think those would compromise rot resistance somewhat? The
gate will never be painted.
I would think butt jointed 2x4 would be stiff enough, different
matter if it were just 2x2.
triangular timber about twice the width to shed water. I want to
fit a bunch of small timber to fill the empty space, but not sure
what would be the best way to fix it, and any other hints on
idealising the details would be welcome. It'll be a full height
job, and security isnt critical.
If you are going to infill the space, would it not be simpler to
do a ledge and brace type of construction (i.e. top middle and
bottom rails, with a couple of diagonal braces, and then planks
nailed/screwed to one side of them)?
The style really wouldnt fit here. The gate needs to be seethrough,
and something relatively modern.
NT
You don't say how you are making the butt joints. Dowel? Biscuit?
Metal brackets? If you don't want to make mortise and tenon joints
then cross-halvings are reasonably quick using a circular saw.
I want it to last so the less holing the better. Probably just 6"
screws through the ends.
You need diagonal bracing to stop your rectangular structure turning
into a parallelogram.
with 2x4? I'm not convinced I do if the joints are tight. One thing's
for sure though, I don't want the appearance of a big angled bracing
plank. If there's any bracing it'll be small corner pieces.
6" screws in a 2 x 4 frame would be fine for say a window frame. or even a
deck frame. They however don't ever move & a gate does. Small corner
braces won't do the job. The side opposite the hinges will drop & the gate
won't close/open properly.
The large diagonal braces are there to stop the rectangle becoming a
parallelogram .
Cheers. Maybe I'd best re-examine the existing gate then, I thought it
was 2x3 frame with no bracing whatever, and there was no troublesome
distortion until it eventually rotted & fell apart.

Will report back.

NT


OK, the existing one is a 2x3 frame lap jointed with 4 nails in each
corner, no added bracing, and it was fine until rotted.

I guess I'd better do likewise then, with 2x4. Thanks,

Yup, a lap joint is *much* stronger than butt without any additional
bracing.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/