Anyone know what goes into a commercial oilway gasket (the thin, papery
kind, not metallic head gaskets, thick waterway gaskets etc.)? Are they
simply paper cut to shape, or are they treated with something to make the
fibres stay together better under heat / vibration / oil attack vs.
ordinary paper stock?

cheers

Jules

On 3 June, 19:03, Jules
wrote:
Anyone know what goes into a commercial oilway gasket

Snips, snails, puppy dog tails, asbestos fibres and a subscription to
uk.rec.engines.stationary

Otherwise most "thin" gaskets (i.e. not thick and conformable) can be
ignored these days and replaced by a liquid gasket compound instead.
Hylomar for choice, not Hermetite.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 3 June, 19:03, Jules
wrote:
Anyone know what goes into a commercial oilway gasket

Snips, snails, puppy dog tails, asbestos fibres and a subscription to
uk.rec.engines.stationary

Otherwise most "thin" gaskets (i.e. not thick and conformable) can be
ignored these days and replaced by a liquid gasket compound instead.
Hylomar for choice, not Hermetite.

WE used to cut em out of cornflake packets and soak em in some gunk or
other. Probably gasket compound.

I do like to use them even with hermetite, because the last bit of
tightening of a steel bolt into an aluminium housing can strip without a
little 'give' in the assembly.

On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:41:06 -0700, Andy Dingley wrote:

On 3 June, 19:03, Jules
wrote:
Anyone know what goes into a commercial oilway gasket

Snips, snails, puppy dog tails, asbestos fibres and a subscription to
uk.rec.engines.stationary

:-)

I should actually get back on there... I think I unsubscribed during some
Great Usenet Reorganisation a year or two ago and never quite got around
to signing back up...

Otherwise most "thin" gaskets (i.e. not thick and conformable) can be
ignored these days and replaced by a liquid gasket compound instead.
Hylomar for choice, not Hermetite.

'these days' because the gasket compound's better, or do you mean 'only on
modern stuff', because the tolerances are a bit tighter so the gasket has
less of a job to do?

The existing lower crankcase gasket on the mower's (4-stroke) engine leaks
like a leaky thing, and I'm in a "mucking around with engines" kind of
mood today :-) Easy job to pull the engine and strip the bottom end, so I
was wondering whether to just make a gasket out of thick paper / cardstock
- or just lump it and wait for a week for a genuine one to arrive
(doubtless along with paying ridiculous S&H, it'll arrive mangled, the
lawn will need mowing again by then etc.!)

My motivation says to just make one (because thin gaskets never look
particularly different to thick paper anyway), but OTOH the geniune
thing might be treated (and I'd rather not end up with paper fibres from a
homebrew clogging bearing oilways etc.). I doubt any homebrew would leak
any less than the current gasket on there.

I used to have a stash of 'gasket paper', but I'm on the wrong side of
t'pond for that now...

cheers

Jules

Jules explained :

Anyone know what goes into a commercial oilway gasket (the thin, papery
kind, not metallic head gaskets, thick waterway gaskets etc.)? Are they
simply paper cut to shape, or are they treated with something to make the
fibres stay together better under heat / vibration / oil attack vs.
ordinary paper stock?

Just paper ready cut to shape. I use brown paper for the thin gaskets
and cornflake packet for the thicker ones. Make some initial bolt holes
with a hot soldering iron, drop bolts through to keep the gasket in
place, then tap gently along the edges to mark then on the new gasket.
Remove and cut along the edges with scissors.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 20:15:11 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
WE used to cut em out of cornflake packets

I remember doing that in student days, but student cars never lasted
long enough to reach any conclusion as to whether it was a long term
solution ;-)

I did use a bit of cardboard for the carb gasket on the lawn trimmer the
other day, which so far is holding up - but time will tell.

and soak em in some gunk or
other. Probably gasket compound.

Never did that, though. At one point in time I got used to using a bit of
hylomar with gaskets, but I'm not sure it's absolutely necessary, and just
seems like extra clean-up if the gasket's ever replaced. I've not bothered
with it in recent years, and not had any problems so far.

I do like to use them even with hermetite

Is that the stuff that's a bit like clear caulking? Some oik had used
that on one Stag engine I had, but they used too much - some of it
eventually broke away inside, clogged a waterway, and overheated the
head (always was a sod sealing the intake mainfold on those engines, but
it's still no excuse!)

cheers

Jules

On 3 June, 20:26, Jules
wrote:

'these days' because the gasket compound's better, or do you mean 'only on
modern stuff', because the tolerances are a bit tighter so the gasket has
less of a job to do?

Flatter seal surfaces, partly from machining, partly from better
distribution of clamping forces. Engine cylinder blocks and heads
these days are even FE-modelled and their internal stiffness adjusted
so that the clamping bolt forces don't warp them any more.

On Jun 4, 7:26 am, Jules
wrote:

My motivation says to just make one (because thin gaskets never look
particularly different to thick paper anyway),

Banknotes are very strong, why not use one of those? Probably cheaper
than the proper gasket anyway

Jules wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 20:15:11 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
WE used to cut em out of cornflake packets

I remember doing that in student days, but student cars never lasted
long enough to reach any conclusion as to whether it was a long term
solution ;-)

I did use a bit of cardboard for the carb gasket on the lawn trimmer the
other day, which so far is holding up - but time will tell.

and soak em in some gunk or
other. Probably gasket compound.

Never did that, though. At one point in time I got used to using a bit of
hylomar with gaskets, but I'm not sure it's absolutely necessary, and just
seems like extra clean-up if the gasket's ever replaced. I've not bothered
with it in recent years, and not had any problems so far.

I do like to use them even with hermetite

Is that the stuff that's a bit like clear caulking? Some oik had used
that on one Stag engine I had, but they used too much - some of it
eventually broke away inside, clogged a waterway, and overheated the
head (always was a sod sealing the intake mainfold on those engines, but
it's still no excuse!)


Red rubbery sort of goo, or did it dry hard..

Hermetic compound I suppose it stands for, and a trade name.

cheers

Jules

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Jules wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 20:15:11 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
WE used to cut em out of cornflake packets

I remember doing that in student days, but student cars never lasted
long enough to reach any conclusion as to whether it was a long term
solution ;-)

I did use a bit of cardboard for the carb gasket on the lawn trimmer the
other day, which so far is holding up - but time will tell.

and soak em in some gunk or
other. Probably gasket compound.

Never did that, though. At one point in time I got used to using a bit of
hylomar with gaskets, but I'm not sure it's absolutely necessary, and
just
seems like extra clean-up if the gasket's ever replaced. I've not
bothered
with it in recent years, and not had any problems so far.

I do like to use them even with hermetite

Is that the stuff that's a bit like clear caulking? Some oik had used
that on one Stag engine I had, but they used too much - some of it
eventually broke away inside, clogged a waterway, and overheated the
head (always was a sod sealing the intake mainfold on those engines, but
it's still no excuse!)

Red rubbery sort of goo, or did it dry hard..

Hermetic compound I suppose it stands for, and a trade name.

cheers

Jules


I haven't rebuilt an engine since student days back in the 70's, but then it
was common to use Hermetite on all 'wet' gaskets, barring the metal head
gasket. As I recall, it came in three basic varieties - red, green, and
gold - each of which had its own setting and sealing characteristics for
different gaskets. I think that the red was the general stuff, and that
*did* dry semi-hard, and was a mother to get off later. I seem to recall
that green was for oily gaskets, but I wouldn't swear to that - it's been a
long time ago ! :-)

As to what gold was for, I really don't remember at all, but I do seem to
recall that it was a lot more expensive, so got 'shared around' ...

Arfa

In article . com,
Jules wrote:
Never did that, though. At one point in time I got used to using a bit
of hylomar with gaskets, but I'm not sure it's absolutely necessary, and
just seems like extra clean-up if the gasket's ever replaced. I've not
bothered with it in recent years, and not had any problems so far.

Hylomar dissolves in cellulose thinners - which is also a good final wipe
for most mating surfaces too. A 5 litre tin of 'gun' cleaning thinners
isn't expensive but can be hard to find these days.

I do like to use them even with hermetite

Is that the stuff that's a bit like clear caulking?

Hermetite came in two versions - brown which set hard and red which didn't.
But there are better modern products.

Some oik had used
that on one Stag engine I had, but they used too much - some of it
eventually broke away inside, clogged a waterway, and overheated the
head (always was a sod sealing the intake mainfold on those engines, but
it's still no excuse!)

Usually because a head has been planed after a gasket failure which alters
the 'V' the inlet manifold sits in. I ended up with a paper gasket on one
side and an extra thick one on the other to help square it up - and had to
helicoil most of the threads into the heads too. Overheating on those is
caused by poor water circulation - although the pump was modified on later
cars. But still isn't great. I added an electric pump.

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
I haven't rebuilt an engine since student days back in the 70's, but
then it was common to use Hermetite on all 'wet' gaskets, barring the
metal head gasket. As I recall, it came in three basic varieties - red,
green, and gold - each of which had its own setting and sealing
characteristics for different gaskets. I think that the red was the
general stuff, and that *did* dry semi-hard, and was a mother to get
off later. I seem to recall that green was for oily gaskets, but I
wouldn't swear to that - it's been a long time ago ! :-)

Ah - don't think I ever saw gold. Just one which set hard - to a dark
brown colour which came in a green tube, and red which was nominally non
setting. But neither really worked on the motorbikes I had then - but that
wasn't the fault of the sealer. ;-)

--
*In some places, C:\ is the root of all directories *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Jules
saying something like:

I used to have a stash of 'gasket paper', but I'm on the wrong side of
t'pond for that now...

Of course you're not - plenty of home engine builder in Septicland and
they get their gasket sheets somewhere. Try McMaster Carr or Frost's.

On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 13:03:22 -0500, Jules wrote:



Anyone know what goes into a commercial oilway gasket (the thin, papery
kind, not metallic head gaskets, thick waterway gaskets etc.)? Are they
simply paper cut to shape, or are they treated with something to make the
fibres stay together better under heat / vibration / oil attack vs.
ordinary paper stock?

cheers

Jules

=========================================

Strangely, paper gaskets were usually coated with ordinary grease and it
was quite effective as a sealant after the initial bleeding out caused by
heat.

If you're stuck for material you might try heavy duty lining paper
(wall-papering type). I haven't tried it but a single roll would provide
plenty to experiment with. I usually used the covers off notepads/
exercise books if they were big enough.

Cic.

--
==========================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
==========================================

On 4 June, 14:49, Cicero wrote:

If you're stuck for material you might try heavy duty lining paper
(wall-papering type). I haven't tried it but

You need something with long fibres. So good quality paper is good,
newsprint is bad. Wallpaper is likely to be at the poorer end of the
scale.

A workable gasket compound can be made from elephant dung, which has
sufficient fibre content (these were eating acacia). It also makes
really good paper, although the colour is a little "rustic".

On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:02:37 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Jules
saying something like:

I used to have a stash of 'gasket paper', but I'm on the wrong side of
t'pond for that now...

Of course you're not - plenty of home engine builder in Septicland and
they get their gasket sheets somewhere. Try McMaster Carr or Frost's.

Oh, I mean I'm sure I can get it easily here - I just know I have a pile
already, but that doesn't help when it's 4000 miles away :-)

On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 08:38:34 -0700, Andy Dingley wrote:

On 4 June, 14:49, Cicero wrote:

If you're stuck for material you might try heavy duty lining paper
(wall-papering type). I haven't tried it but

You need something with long fibres. So good quality paper is good,
newsprint is bad. Wallpaper is likely to be at the poorer end of the
scale.

Well I've got some pretty heavy duty cartridge paper, which I think is the
right kind of 'consistency' - just not sure how well it'd hold up in a
hot / oily environment. Sounds like it's worth a shot (I got sidetracked
building some benches yesterday, so never did get a chance to play with
the engine)

A workable gasket compound can be made from elephant dung, which has
sufficient fibre content (these were eating acacia). It also makes
really good paper, although the colour is a little "rustic".

Interesting. No elephants here, but plenty of deer. Maybe I'll give the
kids a job and see what they think

cheers

J.

On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 09:27:12 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Some oik had used
that on one Stag engine I had, but they used too much - some of it
eventually broke away inside, clogged a waterway, and overheated the
head (always was a sod sealing the intake mainfold on those engines, but
it's still no excuse!)

Usually because a head has been planed after a gasket failure which alters
the 'V' the inlet manifold sits in.

Yep. I ended up sourcing another pair of heads and then getting the inlet
manifold machined to suit, which took care of all the problems - just
frustrating that someone had tried to bodge it rather than doing
something like what you did.

I ended up with a paper gasket on one
side and an extra thick one on the other to help square it up - and had
to helicoil most of the threads into the heads too.

Heh, sure - BTDT. I've seen quite a few engines where they've been
stripped. Don't talk to me about seized head studs, either :-)

Overheating on those
is caused by poor water circulation - although the pump was modified on
later cars. But still isn't great. I added an electric pump.

Both of mine were always OK apart from that drama with the sealant - but
I put a new pump in one engine and made sure I'd flushed all the casting
sand out (another major cause of overheat) and it had a decent radiator.
The other engine was a complete ground-up rebuild, and probably ran better
than it had when it left the factory.

Maybe I'll pick one up this side of the Pond sometime, although it's
really hard to find a good one here that still has the original engine.

cheers

Jules

In article . com,
Jules wrote:
Both of mine were always OK apart from that drama with the sealant - but
I put a new pump in one engine and made sure I'd flushed all the casting
sand out (another major cause of overheat) and it had a decent radiator.
The other engine was a complete ground-up rebuild, and probably ran
better than it had when it left the factory.

Maybe I'll pick one up this side of the Pond sometime, although it's
really hard to find a good one here that still has the original engine.

It's my brothers' car - and I really didn't see the point of that engine.
I'm a Rover V-8 fan. ;-) There were so many basic mistakes in the
engineering to make it pretty pointless when the company had a better one
readily available.

--
*You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:07:55 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
It's my brothers' car - and I really didn't see the point of that engine.
I'm a Rover V-8 fan. ;-) There were so many basic mistakes in the
engineering to make it pretty pointless when the company had a better one
readily available.

Heh - one of the best exhaust notes out there, though. I liked the fact it
was OHC, but it certainly was a bit of an oddball design - not very well
thought through, and then with sloppy production when it came to actually
building the thing.

I think I read somewhere (don't have my reference books with me, sadly)
that it was intended to be a stopgap prior to bigger things though, so
maybe 'v2' would have been considerably better (but doubtless still with
crappy quality control :-) Something without bloody head studs and a
coolant pump that was low enough to actually pump coolant would have
worked wonders...

I've done quite a bit of stuff with the ol' Rover V8, too, so have a bit
of a soft-spot for those as well - good, strong engines. Back when I first
got into classics it was really hard to choose between a P6 and a Stag.

cheers

J.

On 4 June, 17:32, Jules
wrote:

Well I've got some pretty heavy duty cartridge paper,

"Cartridge paper" (in its original use) was a gasket for hot
environments. Although it's harder to find it thick enough for that
these days. Certainly the fibres are right for this.


A workable gasket compound can be made from elephant dung, which has
sufficient fibre content (these were eating acacia). It also makes
really good paper, although the colour is a little "rustic".

Interesting. No elephants here, but plenty of deer.

Needs to be elephant (probably hyrax too, not that I'm obsessed with
hyraxes or anything) It's the combination of both tough diet and poor
ability to digest it. Ruminants don't leave enough behind, deer just
nibble the good stuff.

On 4 June, 22:11, Jules
wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:07:55 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
It's my brothers' car - and I really didn't see the point of that engine.
I'm a Rover V-8 fan. ;-) There were so many basic mistakes in the
engineering to make it pretty pointless when the company had a better one
readily available.

Heh - one of the best exhaust notes out there, though. I liked the fact it
was OHC, but it certainly was a bit of an oddball design - not very well
thought through, and then with sloppy production when it came to actually
building the thing.

I think I read somewhere (don't have my reference books with me, sadly)
that it was intended to be a stopgap prior to bigger things though, so
maybe 'v2' would have been considerably better (but doubtless still with
crappy quality control :-) *Something without bloody head studs and a
coolant pump that was low enough to actually pump coolant would have
worked wonders...

I've done quite a bit of stuff with the ol' Rover V8, too, so have a bit
of a soft-spot for those as well - good, strong engines. Back when I first
got into classics it was really hard to choose between a P6 and a Stag.

cheers

J.



The main point of the design was that the cylinder heads were supposed
to be able to be removed
and refitted without removing the intake manifold, to reduce servicing
costs. I suppose they never
thought of designing an engine that didn't blow head gaskets.

On 4 June, 23:05, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 4 June, 17:32, Jules
wrote:

Well I've got some pretty heavy duty cartridge paper,

"Cartridge paper" (in its original use) was a gasket for hot
environments. Although it's harder to find it thick enough for that
these days. Certainly the fibres are right for this.

A workable gasket compound can be made from elephant dung, which has
sufficient fibre content (these were eating acacia). It also makes
really good paper, although the colour is a little "rustic".

Interesting. No elephants here, but plenty of deer.

Needs to be elephant (probably hyrax too, not that I'm obsessed with
hyraxes or anything) *It's the combination of both tough diet and poor
ability to digest it. Ruminants don't leave enough behind, deer just
nibble the good stuff.


Surely the original use of cartridge paper was for cartridges?

mr fuxit wrote:
On 4 June, 23:05, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 4 June, 17:32, Jules
wrote:

Well I've got some pretty heavy duty cartridge paper,

"Cartridge paper" (in its original use) was a gasket for hot
environments. Although it's harder to find it thick enough for that
these days. Certainly the fibres are right for this.

A workable gasket compound can be made from elephant dung, which
has sufficient fibre content (these were eating acacia). It also
makes really good paper, although the colour is a little "rustic".

Interesting. No elephants here, but plenty of deer.

Needs to be elephant (probably hyrax too, not that I'm obsessed with
hyraxes or anything) It's the combination of both tough diet and poor
ability to digest it. Ruminants don't leave enough behind, deer just
nibble the good stuff.


Surely the original use of cartridge paper was for cartridges?

From Wikipedia; "Cartridge paper is a high quality type of heavy paper used
for illustration and drawing. It was originally used for making weaponry
cartridges".


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article
,
mr fuxit wrote:
The main point of the design was that the cylinder heads were supposed
to be able to be removed and refitted without removing the intake
manifold, to reduce servicing costs. I suppose they never thought of
designing an engine that didn't blow head gaskets.

Don't really see what advantage that gives - removing the inlet manifold
is an easy job, compared to cylinder head removal on an OHC design.

--
*You can't teach an old mouse new clicks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 4 June, 23:19, mr fuxit wrote:

"Cartridge paper" (in its original use) was a gasket for hot
environments.

Surely the original use of cartridge paper was for cartridges?

Yes - and a cartridge case is a one-use gasket for hot environments,
isn't it?

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 4 June, 23:19, mr fuxit wrote:

"Cartridge paper" (in its original use) was a gasket for hot
environments.

Surely the original use of cartridge paper was for cartridges?

Yes - and a cartridge case is a one-use gasket for hot environments,
isn't it?

I reckon that's stretching the connection a little bit far ... d;~}

Arfa

On Fri, 5 Jun 2009 02:45:26 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley wrote:

On 4 June, 23:19, mr fuxit wrote:

"Cartridge paper" (in its original use) was a gasket for hot
environments.

Surely the original use of cartridge paper was for cartridges?

Yes - and a cartridge case is a one-use gasket for hot environments,
isn't it?

Quite high pressure as well - but a big leak doesn't matter.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

On 5 June, 13:34, PeterC wrote:

Yes - and a cartridge case is a one-use gasket for hot environments,
isn't it?

Quite high pressure as well - but a big leak doesn't matter.

Well it does rather for the early needle guns. Leakage around the
needle blew back into the firer's face.

I admit I don't know the history of cartridge paper in relation to
cartridges of the 18th and early 19th century (although enquiries are
in place amongst the obsessional and sulphorous). By the time of the
one-piece breech-loadable paper cartridge, the need for a long-fibre
rag paper was well recognised - the high quality "cartridge paper"
that we recognise as such. For the earlier muzzle-loading
"cartouches", I'm not so sure. These were a pre-weighed charge and a
way of keeping a pre-greased ball or bullet clean by wrapping the
whole lot up in a one-use paper bag. The shooter would tear (or bite)
the end off the package, and pour the charge down a vertical barrel,
followed by the ball. If they had time, they'd use the paper case
between these as a wad, ramming it into place. For rapid-fire though
there was no time to ram and so the paper wad was skipped. The
question is, were these early packages also seen as requiring such a
good grade of paper? They were in use over a long period, from when
the only paper made was high quality paper, through to a time when
cheap newsprint had appeared. Did the paper used for loose-loading
cartridges drop in quality likewise?

On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:09:11 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article
,
mr fuxit wrote:
The main point of the design was that the cylinder heads were supposed
to be able to be removed and refitted without removing the intake
manifold, to reduce servicing costs. I suppose they never thought of
designing an engine that didn't blow head gaskets.

Don't really see what advantage that gives - removing the inlet manifold
is an easy job, compared to cylinder head removal on an OHC design.

Seconded. Although Stag cams weren't too bad; the timing gear unbolts from
the camshafts and can be fitted temporarily to a couple of brackets
within the engine without losing chain tension or throwing the timing out.
It was one of the nicer OHC setups I've seen.

Problem was that the steel head studs would corrode within the alloy
heads, making it very difficult to get everything apart - probably not
something the engineers ever anticipated when all was new, and which might
have been dealt with if the car had enjoyed a longer production life.

I'm not sure where in the timeline the Stag engine, with alloy heads and
an iron block, fitted - doubtless that didn't help with gasket failure if
metals were expanding at different rates.

cheers

Jules

In article . com,
Jules wrote:
Don't really see what advantage that gives - removing the inlet
manifold is an easy job, compared to cylinder head removal on an OHC
design.

Seconded. Although Stag cams weren't too bad; the timing gear unbolts
from the camshafts and can be fitted temporarily to a couple of brackets
within the engine without losing chain tension or throwing the timing
out. It was one of the nicer OHC setups I've seen.

Apart from the simplex chains having a short life...

Problem was that the steel head studs would corrode within the alloy
heads, making it very difficult to get everything apart - probably not
something the engineers ever anticipated when all was new, and which
might have been dealt with if the car had enjoyed a longer production
life.

Rover had it sorted with their V-8 - use Scotchclad thread sealer on every
thread or over a bolt etc going through ally. Stops corrosion between the
two as well as locking it. But they also used waisted bolts to give
clearance between steel and ally over most of the length.

I'm not sure where in the timeline the Stag engine, with alloy heads and
an iron block, fitted - doubtless that didn't help with gasket failure
if metals were expanding at different rates.

Plenty used ally heads and cast iron blocks - Jaguar on the XK engine
since the '40s, for example. It's not impossible to engineer it correctly.
My impression of the Stag unit was there was someone in charge who decided
to cut corners. Bit like some council house designers. 'Let's try this new
idea just for the sake of it' ;-) The waterpump is a prime example. The
Stag has room for a straight six - so why not a conventional waterpump
which is tried and tested technology? And would have removed the need for
a layshaft.

--
*How much deeper would the oceans be without sponges? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Andy Dingley
saying something like:

A workable gasket compound can be made from elephant dung,

Bush mechanicing, indeed. Did you also **** in the brake fluid
reservoir?

On 5 June, 18:41, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Andy Dingley
saying something like:

A workable gasket compound can be made from elephant dung,

Bush mechanicing, indeed. Did you also **** in the brake fluid
reservoir?

Of course not, you use shampoo for that (really)

On 5 June, 17:52, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Plenty used ally heads and cast iron blocks - Jaguar on the XK engine
since the '40s, for example. It's not impossible to engineer it correctly.

There's also a works tool for taking the heads off - a tube cutter for
sawing the studs free of their corrosion.

In article
,
Andy Dingley wrote:
Plenty used ally heads and cast iron blocks - Jaguar on the XK engine
since the '40s, for example. It's not impossible to engineer it
correctly.

There's also a works tool for taking the heads off - a tube cutter for
sawing the studs free of their corrosion.

Indeed. But using a modern sealer would have negated that problem. Or
waisted bolts.

--
*Gaffer tape - The Force, light and dark sides - holds the universe together*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:58:20 -0700, Andy Dingley wrote:
Bush mechanicing, indeed. Did you also **** in the brake fluid
reservoir?

Of course not, you use shampoo for that (really)

Really really? I thought shampoo was mostly water... but then I suppose
water is pretty hard to compress...

On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:52:18 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article . com,
Jules wrote:
Don't really see what advantage that gives - removing the inlet
manifold is an easy job, compared to cylinder head removal on an OHC
design.

Seconded. Although Stag cams weren't too bad; the timing gear unbolts
from the camshafts and can be fitted temporarily to a couple of brackets
within the engine without losing chain tension or throwing the timing
out. It was one of the nicer OHC setups I've seen.

Apart from the simplex chains having a short life...

Yeah, 15k miles IIRC*. Although replacing them was a pretty simple job,
and they weren't *that* expensive an item, so I'm not sure it's any worse
than the maintenance schedule on a lot of modern vehicles. Just worse than
most contemporary ones. :-)

* although maybe I'm thinking of the Lotus Esprit...

Problem was that the steel head studs would corrode within the alloy
heads, making it very difficult to get everything apart - probably not
something the engineers ever anticipated when all was new, and which
might have been dealt with if the car had enjoyed a longer production
life.

Rover had it sorted with their V-8 - use Scotchclad thread sealer on
every thread or over a bolt etc going through ally. Stops corrosion
between the two as well as locking it.

Interesting. ISTR copperslip was the stuff to use on Stag ones, but that
was knowledge amongst the owner community, rather than something that
the factory did. I don't know if the factory bothered with anything (I
don't recall mention of it in the official workshop manual, but it's
been a while)

I'm not sure where in the timeline the Stag engine, with alloy heads
and an iron block, fitted - doubtless that didn't help with gasket
failure if metals were expanding at different rates.

Plenty used ally heads and cast iron blocks - Jaguar on the XK engine
since the '40s, for example. It's not impossible to engineer it
correctly. My impression of the Stag unit was there was someone in
charge who decided to cut corners.

I think there was someone in charge who was just plain bonkers, TBH -
cutting corners was a secondary motivation :-) I've often heard a comment
about the engine being essentially two Dolomite inline-fours merged
together, but I've never taken a Dolomite engine apart to see if there's
merit in that.

The Stag has room for a straight six - so
why not a conventional waterpump which is tried and tested technology?

I think the brief was always for a V8, though - their 'six wasn't
considered good enough. Which was fair enough (ignoring the fuel
crisis), and ballsy of them to design their own - but they seemed to make
a lot of fundamental screw-ups along the way.

And would have removed the need for a layshaft.

I don't think that's inherently bad, other than adding a bit of complexity
and extra weight - but again it was a design flaw with insufficent oil
supply (and/or made worse by overheating).

I wonder if there was a reason they couldn't have used an electric water
pump from the start, as various owners have done since... maybe the
technology just wasn't there back then.

cheers

Jules

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Andy Dingley
saying something like:

A workable gasket compound can be made from elephant dung,

Bush mechanicing, indeed. Did you also **** in the brake fluid
reservoir?

Of course not, you use shampoo for that (really)

Please, don't tell me what the conditioner was for.

On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:17:19 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
There's also a works tool for taking the heads off - a tube cutter for
sawing the studs free of their corrosion.

Indeed. But using a modern sealer would have negated that problem. Or
waisted bolts.

Even just bolts, TBH. Studs are a complete nightmare when they get stuck
in there - even locking a couple of nuts together on the ends sometimes
isn't enough to shift them (I once made the mistake of buying an expensive
stud extractor tool - it stripped itself to bits after about the third one).

cheers

J.

In article . com,
Jules wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:52:18 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article . com,
Jules wrote:
Don't really see what advantage that gives - removing the inlet
manifold is an easy job, compared to cylinder head removal on an OHC
design.

Seconded. Although Stag cams weren't too bad; the timing gear unbolts
from the camshafts and can be fitted temporarily to a couple of
brackets within the engine without losing chain tension or throwing
the timing out. It was one of the nicer OHC setups I've seen.

Apart from the simplex chains having a short life...

Yeah, 15k miles IIRC*. Although replacing them was a pretty simple job,
and they weren't *that* expensive an item, so I'm not sure it's any
worse than the maintenance schedule on a lot of modern vehicles. Just
worse than most contemporary ones. :-)

* although maybe I'm thinking of the Lotus Esprit...

Most timing chains have a pretty long life. Cam belts are the things that
need a routine change - but even then I don't know of any where this is
15k miles. Most are three times that or more.

Problem was that the steel head studs would corrode within the alloy
heads, making it very difficult to get everything apart - probably
not something the engineers ever anticipated when all was new, and
which might have been dealt with if the car had enjoyed a longer
production life.

Rover had it sorted with their V-8 - use Scotchclad thread sealer on
every thread or over a bolt etc going through ally. Stops corrosion
between the two as well as locking it.

Interesting. ISTR copperslip was the stuff to use on Stag ones, but that
was knowledge amongst the owner community, rather than something that
the factory did. I don't know if the factory bothered with anything (I
don't recall mention of it in the official workshop manual, but it's
been a while)

I can't remember either since my brother has the manual. But do know that
steel protected with Scotchguard doesn't seize into ally. So much so I use
it for other such things.

I'm not sure where in the timeline the Stag engine, with alloy heads
and an iron block, fitted - doubtless that didn't help with gasket
failure if metals were expanding at different rates.

Plenty used ally heads and cast iron blocks - Jaguar on the XK engine
since the '40s, for example. It's not impossible to engineer it
correctly. My impression of the Stag unit was there was someone in
charge who decided to cut corners.

I think there was someone in charge who was just plain bonkers, TBH -
cutting corners was a secondary motivation :-) I've often heard a
comment about the engine being essentially two Dolomite inline-fours
merged together, but I've never taken a Dolomite engine apart to see if
there's merit in that.

It essentially is. Now there might be merit in making a four cylinder as
short as possible - and including a layshaft that can also be a balance
shaft - but not really a V-8 which needs neither. They could still have
used the basic Dolomite design but fitted a conventional water pump and a
distributor driven off somewhere else. After all the inlet manifold wasn't
common to the fours.

The Stag has room for a straight six - so why not a conventional
waterpump which is tried and tested technology?

I think the brief was always for a V8, though - their 'six wasn't
considered good enough. Which was fair enough (ignoring the fuel
crisis), and ballsy of them to design their own - but they seemed to
make a lot of fundamental screw-ups along the way.

The prototype was made from a six cylinder car - IIRC an estate. And it is
an easy job to fit that engine.

And would have removed the need for a layshaft.

I don't think that's inherently bad, other than adding a bit of
complexity and extra weight - but again it was a design flaw with
insufficent oil supply (and/or made worse by overheating).

IIRC, the overheating was caused by a poor rad and waterpump - later
versions were better.

I wonder if there was a reason they couldn't have used an electric water
pump from the start, as various owners have done since... maybe the
technology just wasn't there back then.

They certainly weren't common.

cheers

Jules

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.