I have a captain's chair (I think that's what it's called?)...
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8233/chair.jpg
....which as you can see has a strut between the legs which has come
adrift. I've tried glueing it back, but the legs have become slightly
splayed, so with my weight on the chair with the strut glued, the strut
is in tension and it pops out again (the ends are not particularly snug
fits anyway.

I could probably solve this by putting an axial screw in either end of
the loose strut, through the side-struts, but this isn't how the chair
was made and I feel that would be rather a bodge. Any suggestions on
how to do it properly?

BTW the tops of the legs are embedded in their sockets in the base of
the seat; they are firmly stuck although there's a bit of lateral play
which I know I need to lose.

Thanks
David

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
I have a captain's chair (I think that's what it's called?)...
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8233/chair.jpg
...which as you can see has a strut between the legs which has come
adrift. I've tried glueing it back, but the legs have become slightly
splayed, so with my weight on the chair with the strut glued, the strut is
in tension and it pops out again (the ends are not particularly snug fits
anyway.

I could probably solve this by putting an axial screw in either end of the
loose strut, through the side-struts, but this isn't how the chair was
made and I feel that would be rather a bodge. Any suggestions on how to
do it properly?

BTW the tops of the legs are embedded in their sockets in the base of the
seat; they are firmly stuck although there's a bit of lateral play which I
know I need to lose.

Thanks
David


If 'Resin W' won't do it I don't know what will. That stuff is stronger than
the wood.

Lobster wrote:
I have a captain's chair (I think that's what it's called?)...
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8233/chair.jpg
...which as you can see has a strut between the legs which has come
adrift. I've tried glueing it back, but the legs have become slightly
splayed, so with my weight on the chair with the strut glued, the
strut is in tension and it pops out again (the ends are not
particularly snug fits anyway.

I could probably solve this by putting an axial screw in either end of
the loose strut, through the side-struts, but this isn't how the chair
was made and I feel that would be rather a bodge. Any suggestions on
how to do it properly?

BTW the tops of the legs are embedded in their sockets in the base of
the seat; they are firmly stuck although there's a bit of lateral play
which I know I need to lose.

Thanks
David

Lobster,

To give a permanent repair:

Try cutting a slot in either end and fit a suitably sized, 'secret' wedge to
the depth of the mortise (as in a mortise and tenon, secret wedged joint) so
that when it is fully in the mortise, it expands the ends if the rail just
enough to grip [1], clean off *all* the old glue, tap the wedge into the end
to start it, glue up the rail ends and insert - giving side rails a sharp
rap with a mallet (and a scrap piece of wood as a protector) until the wedge
is driven fully home.

[1] You could taper the mortise slightly from top-to-bottom (bottom
obviously wider) to form a sort of dovetail thus giving an even better grip
when the wedge is driven home.

Cash

Lobster wrote:
I have a captain's chair (I think that's what it's called?)...
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8233/chair.jpg
...which as you can see has a strut between the legs which has come
adrift. I've tried glueing it back, but the legs have become slightly
splayed, so with my weight on the chair with the strut glued, the strut
is in tension and it pops out again (the ends are not particularly snug
fits anyway.

Get some PVA and mix it with a fair bit of saw dust and glue the strut
back in place. When the joint is dry drill from underneath and fit a
glued dowel to pass through the stut, but not right though the bit I
can't remember what it is called, but the strut joins up to. Dont use
too large a dowel, you are only preventing it from popping out. The
important bit is the filler in the loose strut joint.

I could probably solve this by putting an axial screw in either end of
the loose strut, through the side-struts, but this isn't how the chair
was made and I feel that would be rather a bodge.

End screwing wood grain just doesn't work, so I would forget that idea.

Dave

In article ,
Lobster writes:
I have a captain's chair (I think that's what it's called?)...
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8233/chair.jpg
...which as you can see has a strut between the legs which has come
adrift. I've tried glueing it back, but the legs have become slightly
splayed, so with my weight on the chair with the strut glued, the strut
is in tension and it pops out again (the ends are not particularly snug
fits anyway.

I could probably solve this by putting an axial screw in either end of
the loose strut, through the side-struts, but this isn't how the chair
was made and I feel that would be rather a bodge. Any suggestions on
how to do it properly?

A variation on the sawdust and glue...

I have used a plane (real one, not electric) to generate a shaving
which is the right thickness to make up for any play in a dowel-type
joint. With the plane, you can adjust the cut to get whatever thickness
shaving you need, to make a tight fit (which you also glue).

This has worked very well on the banisters I built - the acorns (or
balls in my case) on top of the newel posts get a hell of a force on
them when everyone swings on them where the stairs turn 180 degrees.
I knew they'd quickly come off it they weren't very secure, and
they've been firmly attached this way for probably 8 years now, with
no loosening whatsoever.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Lobster wrote:

I have a captain's chair (I think that's what it's called?)...
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8233/chair.jpg
...which as you can see has a strut between the legs which has come
adrift. I've tried glueing it back, but the legs have become slightly
splayed, so with my weight on the chair with the strut glued, the
strut is in tension and it pops out again (the ends are not
particularly snug fits anyway.

I could probably solve this by putting an axial screw in either end of
the loose strut, through the side-struts, but this isn't how the chair
was made and I feel that would be rather a bodge. Any suggestions on
how to do it properly?

BTW the tops of the legs are embedded in their sockets in the base of
the seat; they are firmly stuck although there's a bit of lateral play
which I know I need to lose.

Thanks
David

Nice chair!

As a variation on all the other suggestions, clean up the joint and stick it
back together with a liberal dose of Gripfill - obviously cleaning off any
bits which ooze out, before it sets. Leave it a couple of days before
sitting on the chair.

[I always thought that sort of chair was called a 'carver' BICBW].
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

On Sun, 24 May 2009 23:16:07 +0100, Lobster wrote:

BTW the tops of the legs are embedded in their sockets in the base of
the seat; they are firmly stuck although there's a bit of lateral play
which I know I need to lose.

Yes, any movement at the tops of the legs will be amplified at the
position of the strut and will just make those joints fail. You probably
need to strip clean and reassemble the entire legs/struts for the chair.
Ensuring that you have to tap each joint together on assmebly. Secret
wedges are good but I can imaging tricky to get right so that the
expansion is just right with the joint fully home. I quite like the
planing shaving idea but not sure you could have a good tight physical
joint without the shaving being displaced.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Lobster wrote:
I have a captain's chair (I think that's what it's called?)...
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8233/chair.jpg
...which as you can see has a strut between the legs which has come
adrift. I've tried glueing it back, but the legs have become slightly
splayed, so with my weight on the chair with the strut glued, the
strut is in tension and it pops out again (the ends are not
particularly snug fits anyway.

There is a glue designed just for this problem, never used it myself but..

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.a... ile=1&jump=44

The blurb says;

-----------------------------------------------
Veritas Chair Doctor Glue

Chair Doctor Glue does exactly what the name implies - it fixes chairs. If a
chair has a loose rung an injection of Chair Doctor Glue will first swell
the rung and then bond it in position. The secret is the low viscosity. It
soaks into the end grain, swells the wood then 'freezes' the wood in its
swollen state as it cures. A film of dry glue is left on the walls of the
wood cells preventing contraction. The glue can penetrate the narrowest of
cracks and is supplied in a bottle with a micro dropper applicator tip which
lets you place the glue accurately. For regular cabinetmaking PVA adhesive
is the best choice; but for fixing loose joints where disassembly is not an
option Chair Doctor Glue is the most suitable. Available as a 57ml(2fl.oz)
bottle or the Pro Kit which contains 114ml(4fl.oz) of glue, syringe and
three different injection needles.

------------------------------------------------


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 24 May 2009 23:16:07 +0100, Lobster wrote:

BTW the tops of the legs are embedded in their sockets in the base of
the seat; they are firmly stuck although there's a bit of lateral play
which I know I need to lose.

Yes, any movement at the tops of the legs will be amplified at the
position of the strut and will just make those joints fail. You probably
need to strip clean and reassemble the entire legs/struts for the chair.
Ensuring that you have to tap each joint together on assmebly. Secret
wedges are good but I can imaging tricky to get right so that the
expansion is just right with the joint fully home. I quite like the
planing shaving idea but not sure you could have a good tight physical
joint without the shaving being displaced.

You should always split the end of legs and wedge, for an intersting reason.

Variations in humidity will cause cross grain wood to move more than it
does along the grain.

Therefore when dowelling into wood that has one dimension along the
grain, you need a cut in the dowel perpendicular to the grain direction
of the seat (say).

Then as the dowel expands and contracts it wont tear the glue free.
wedging is optional, but no bad idea.

On 24 May, 23:16, Lobster wrote:
I have a captain's chair (I think that's what it's called?)...

It's broadly a Windsor (because the seat is a single plank), or more
specifically a Carver because it has arms.

John Carver was one of the first settlers on the Mayflower and became
Governor of New Plymouth. His magistrate's chair survives today. This
might not have been the first Windsor with arms in this style, but as
one of the best-known early examples in the USA, it gave its name to
them.

Captain's chairs are usually revolvers and don't have separate arms &
back, Instead they have a semi-circular gallery all the way round,
often with a padded backrest above this:
http://www.equip4work.co.uk/store/product.asp?spc=AR205

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8233/chair.jpg
...which as you can see has a strut between the legs which has come
adrift. *

Chairs are one of the hardest bits of furniture to make structurally,
and they're worse to repair. Lots of stress, dynamic racking stresses
not just weight, and thin section timber to do it with.

I'll be blunt - your problem here is the cheap crapwood used to make
them, and the stuff isn't hard enough to make a load-bearing tenon
that doesn't wear smaller with any fretting loads on it. The real fix
is better made chairs, better-fitting tenons, made of better timber. A
genuine green Windsor is assembled by differential shrinkage (the
tenon is dry, the mortice is green and shrinks to grab tight hold), no
glue or nails and should last 50 years.

So any attempt (like Veritas Chair Doctor) that assumes a well-fitting
joint in strong timber isn't going to work - the timber's not up to
it. So do something else instead. Don't use foxed wedges (i.e. secret
blind wedges) as the tenon will still chafe and they'll come loose.
Also foxed wedges are considered bad workmanship as they can't be
dismantled for repair in the future.

So what's left? Epoxy is one. Use a good low-viscosity resin (West
System) and thicken it yourself with a filler like phenolic
microballoons to "peanut butter" consistency. Don't use Araldite.
This is a good option for really damaged tenons, but it's a one-shot
fix. If the chair wears loose again, you'll not get it apart for a
second repair. For that reason, you need to fix _all_ the loose joints
in one go.

Another option, commonly used to make this sort of chair nowadays, is
to bolt it together with barrel bolts.Drill axially along the rail and
out along the mortice too. Drill crossways halfway through the rail
and insert a cylindrical barrel nut. This is also tightenable in the
future.

On Mon, 25 May 2009 09:38:00 +0100, "Roger Mills"
wrote:



[I always thought that sort of chair was called a 'carver' BICBW].

Spotted the cable going to the back of it, so I reckon it's an
electric chair.

Old Git wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2009 09:38:00 +0100, "Roger Mills"
wrote:


[I always thought that sort of chair was called a 'carver' BICBW].

Spotted the cable going to the back of it, so I reckon it's an
electric chair.

Heh. Wondered if that would raise any eyebrows!

FWIW it goes to an electric pencil sharpener. (Yeah, I know, and I
didn't buy it....)


David

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 24 May, 23:16, Lobster wrote:
I have a captain's chair (I think that's what it's called?)...

It's broadly a Windsor (because the seat is a single plank), or more
specifically a Carver because it has arms.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8233/chair.jpg
...which as you can see has a strut between the legs which has come
adrift.

I'll be blunt - your problem here is the cheap crapwood used to make
them, and the stuff isn't hard enough to make a load-bearing tenon
that doesn't wear smaller with any fretting loads on it. The real fix
is better made chairs, better-fitting tenons, made of better timber. A
genuine green Windsor is assembled by differential shrinkage (the
tenon is dry, the mortice is green and shrinks to grab tight hold), no
glue or nails and should last 50 years.

So any attempt (like Veritas Chair Doctor) that assumes a well-fitting
joint in strong timber isn't going to work - the timber's not up to
it. So do something else instead. Don't use foxed wedges (i.e. secret
blind wedges) as the tenon will still chafe and they'll come loose.
Also foxed wedges are considered bad workmanship as they can't be
dismantled for repair in the future.

Bummer - I though that chair doctor stuff looked just the job!

So what's left? Epoxy is one. Use a good low-viscosity resin (West
System) and thicken it yourself with a filler like phenolic
microballoons to "peanut butter" consistency. Don't use Araldite.
This is a good option for really damaged tenons, but it's a one-shot
fix. If the chair wears loose again, you'll not get it apart for a
second repair. For that reason, you need to fix _all_ the loose joints
in one go.

Another option, commonly used to make this sort of chair nowadays, is
to bolt it together with barrel bolts.Drill axially along the rail and
out along the mortice too. Drill crossways halfway through the rail
and insert a cylindrical barrel nut. This is also tightenable in the
future.

The tenons aren't actually badly damaged, they're just slightly loose
now. I can see that the barrel bolt idea would do the business, but had
thought drilling visible holes etc would be rather a bodge in itself -
perhaps I'm being a bit precious about it though since it's not a
particularly old chair and apparently made of crapwood ;-) (although I'm
quite fond of it!).

If I used resin on it, if that repair failed subsequently wouldn't it be
possible to 'convert' to the barrel nut/bolt repair just by drilling the
necessary holes straight through any assembled joints (IYSWIM)?

David

On 25 May, 18:21, Lobster wrote:

If I used resin on it, if that repair failed subsequently wouldn't it be
possible to 'convert' to the barrel nut/bolt repair just by drilling the
necessary holes straight through any assembled joints (IYSWIM)?

Yes, I think that would probably work, in extremis.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Lobster
saying something like:

I have a captain's chair (I think that's what it's called?)...
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8233/chair.jpg
...which as you can see has a strut between the legs which has come
adrift.

Tell the Captain to lose a bit of weight, the fat *******.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 24 May, 23:16, Lobster wrote:
I have a captain's chair (I think that's what it's called?)...

...which as you can see has a strut between the legs which has come
adrift.

So what's left? Epoxy is one. Use a good low-viscosity resin (West
System) and thicken it yourself with a filler like phenolic
microballoons to "peanut butter" consistency. Don't use Araldite.

Just revisiting this thread in the hope that Andy's still watching...! I
don't know much about these resins, and efforts to locate this West
System stuff have only led me towards boat-building quantities. What's
the problem with using Araldite, which I *am* at least familiar with? If
that's not appropriate, is there a suitable readily obtainable alternative?

(BTW forgot to mention in my OP that my original failed attempts at
repair had involved a gripfill-like adhesive (I forget which brand).

Thanks
David

On 3 June, 18:33, Lobster wrote:

don't know much about these resins, and efforts to locate this West
System stuff have only led me towards boat-building quantities. *

Axminster. They sell a "handy pack" (10-15 quid) that's a good
workshop size and enough to keep the workshop going for about the
shelf life of a bottleful. Get a few of the filler materials too,
they're useful and not expensive. If you aren't sticking fillers into
your epoxy, then you're only seeing half of its uses.

What's the problem with using Araldite,

There are three problems with "retail tube" epoxies:

* They tone down the toxicity of some of the resin chemistry. The
liquid stuff is a bit more unpleasant, but works better.

* Viscous tube epoxy isn't such a good resin system either.

* You can thicken liquid epoxies by adding fillers, but you can't thin
an already-viscous epoxy for those jobs where you want it thinner,
fibrous or sandable.

If it's all you have, use the Araldite. But good epoxy is a whole new
toy to play with in the workshop and worth seeking out.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 3 June, 18:33, Lobster wrote:

don't know much about these resins, and efforts to locate this West
System stuff have only led me towards boat-building quantities.

Axminster. They sell a "handy pack" (10-15 quid) that's a good
workshop size and enough to keep the workshop going for about the
shelf life of a bottleful. Get a few of the filler materials too,
they're useful and not expensive. If you aren't sticking fillers into
your epoxy, then you're only seeing half of its uses.

What's the problem with using Araldite,

There are three problems with "retail tube" epoxies:

* They tone down the toxicity of some of the resin chemistry. The
liquid stuff is a bit more unpleasant, but works better.

* Viscous tube epoxy isn't such a good resin system either.

* You can thicken liquid epoxies by adding fillers, but you can't thin
an already-viscous epoxy for those jobs where you want it thinner,
fibrous or sandable.

If it's all you have, use the Araldite. But good epoxy is a whole new
toy to play with in the workshop and worth seeking out.

I can assure you that epoxy is not a good glue to use on wood.

I use it a LOT with glass cloth to bind metal struts to ply formers:
Under stress it ALWAYS tears off the wood. It simply does not penetrate
the way e.g. ordinary white glue does, not does it have the flexibility.

After trying just about everything including foaming polyurethane glues,
I have dome back to good old cheap PVA' white carpenters glue.

As I said way back when, the secret to wood work joints is to understand
that wood expands and contracts far more across the grain than it does
along, so a joint that wont split out and work loose needs a slot in the
tenon part *across* the grain direction of the wood into which it fits.

Then a good accurate fit and it should stay tight with PVA.
Alternatively the foaming polyurethanes are flexible and good gap
fillers, but even those have cracked up when faced with drying green oak
joints :-)

Funnily enough old fashioned glue pots - or the modern alternative - a
hot glue gun - are a lot better than most people think. Thats teh final
alternative I would suggest.

Must get one meself...fed up with borrowing me mates..

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I can assure you that epoxy is not a good glue to use on wood.

Then you are using the wrong epoxy.

_ALL_ wooden boats built these days use epoxy (well I suppose there may
be some luddites out there trying to keep the old ways alive). Mine's
been raced for 10 years, and the joints are perfect.

If the OP wants to try it, something like this

https://www.marine-super-store.com/p...edpartno=01339

probably contains all the right bits. Whether it's worth it for an old
chair is another matter.

Andy

--
BTW I don't know that retailer. Picked as they were 1st on my google
search.

Andy Champ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I can assure you that epoxy is not a good glue to use on wood.

Then you are using the wrong epoxy.

_ALL_ wooden boats built these days use epoxy (well I suppose there may
be some luddites out there trying to keep the old ways alive). Mine's
been raced for 10 years, and the joints are perfect.


Ply?

do you crash them?
Bend Them?

Chairs get a LOT of stress.

And ply doesn't move the way ordinary wood does.

If the OP wants to try it, something like this

https://www.marine-super-store.com/p...edpartno=01339


probably contains all the right bits. Whether it's worth it for an old
chair is another matter.

Andy

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Champ wrote:
_ALL_ wooden boats built these days use epoxy (well I suppose there
may be some luddites out there trying to keep the old ways alive).
Mine's been raced for 10 years, and the joints are perfect.


Ply?

Mostly, but not completely. The hog & gunwhales are solid timber and
run the length of the boat; there are other smaller bits.

do you crash them?

Yep. Usually the wood breaks (gunwhales) and has to be replaced in that
section. I've never seen the joint fail; it seems to be tougher than
the wood.

Bend Them?

They're too stiff to bend much. The major construction units are a pair
of foot-wide box sections.

Chairs get a LOT of stress.

The loads on the boat are a lot higher. Some types run several tons of
tension in the rigging and that's on a hull of ~100Kg.

And ply doesn't move the way ordinary wood does.

Mostly I've seen wood moving because of water - humidity changes etc.
We epoxy coat the whole thing - keeping them dry keeps the weight down.

Andy