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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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broken lawn mower
Hello,
I've got a green Bosch lawnmower ARM32 which seems to be broken. When I press the buttons I get a loud hum from the motor but the blade does not spin. I've noticed if I press the switch on and off, there is a metallic clunk every time I press the switch in to start the mower. I've looked and there are no blockages and -when unplugged!- the blade spins freely by hand. Is it time to buy a new one or can I or an expert fix it? Thanks. |
#2
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broken lawn mower
In article ,
Stephen writes: Hello, I've got a green Bosch lawnmower ARM32 which seems to be broken. When I press the buttons I get a loud hum from the motor but the blade does not spin. I've noticed if I press the switch on and off, there is a metallic clunk every time I press the switch in to start the mower. I've looked and there are no blockages and -when unplugged!- the blade spins freely by hand. Is it time to buy a new one or can I or an expert fix it? Sounds like it's an induction motor with a dead start/run capacitor. The test for this is to see if it starts if you give it a spin, but this is rather dangerous, obviously, so it's up to you if you think you can do this safely without removing fingers. (Don't spin it with your hand!) -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#3
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broken lawn mower
On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:04:53 +0100, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"
wrote: My initial thoughts are you've wound the bottom plate up too tight. If you are winding the helical blade backwads the blades will ride over the bottom "blade" but when the motor tries to power it the leading edge of one of the helical blades will catch on the corner of the bottom blade. Hello, If I have understood correctly, you seem to be suggesting that there are two blades, one on top of the other and they are catching. is that right? If so, I don't think this is happening because as far as I am aware there is only one blade. There is a diagram at: http://www.mtmc.co.uk/prodtype.asp?c...PT_ID=12725761 It's not quite the same model because the one in the diagram talks about batteries, so I assume it is cordless/rechargeable model, whereas mine is mains corded. Thanks. |
#4
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broken lawn mower
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#5
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broken lawn mower
In message , Stephen
writes On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:04:53 +0100, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk" wrote: My initial thoughts are you've wound the bottom plate up too tight. If you are winding the helical blade backwads the blades will ride over the bottom "blade" but when the motor tries to power it the leading edge of one of the helical blades will catch on the corner of the bottom blade. Hello, If I have understood correctly, you seem to be suggesting that there are two blades, one on top of the other and they are catching. is that right? If so, I don't think this is happening because as far as I am aware there is only one blade. Pete thought you had a cylinder mower by the sounds of it. -- Chris French |
#6
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broken lawn mower
Pete thought you had a cylinder mower by the sounds of it.
Thanks for the explanation. Are cylinders better than rotaries, should I need to buy a new one? I found this: http://www.mtmc.co.uk/prodtype.asp?P...ageHistory=cat which is nearer the mark to what I have but even that has a motor for £80, which I am sure is more than I paid for the mower, that's inflation for you. I guess if it needed a new motor, I would be best to buy a new mower; let's hope I can just swap the cap though. BTW I notice what I call the blade, that site alls the knife, is looking a bit worse for wear. Can these be sharpened on a bench grinder or is there a better way? Thanks again. |
#7
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broken lawn mower
Stephen wrote:
Pete thought you had a cylinder mower by the sounds of it. Thanks for the explanation. Are cylinders better than rotaries, should I need to buy a new one? Nothing cuts grass cleaner than a well sharpened and set cylinder. Nothing gets out of whack faster, that a cylinder and wood, stones or children's toys. Your choice. |
#8
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broken lawn mower
Stephen wrote:
On 25 Apr 2009 18:10:11 GMT, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote: Sounds like it's an induction motor with a dead start/run capacitor. The test for this is to see if it starts if you give it a spin, but this is rather dangerous, obviously, so it's up to you if you think you can do this safely without removing fingers. (Don't spin it with your hand!) Thank you. I think you may be right. When I bought the lawn mower I am sure that the marketing emphasised that it had an induction motor, saying that induction motors were quieter than other types of motor. Is that true? I have had a quick look on wikipedia to find out what an Yup, much quieter than a universal motor - which is the other common alternative. induction motor is but I didn't see anything about noise or power compared to other (synchronous ?) motors. The neighbours' mowers do seem louder, so are induction powered mowers rare? They are getting much more common - since rules about noise emissions have tightened. They also have a much more suited torque curve for grass cutting - developing maximum at full speed, rather than maximum when stalled. I don't think that the exploded view I quoted in my other reply shows a capacitor. Is it an integral part of the motor? I hope not because that web site prices the motor at more than thrice the cost of the mower! I presume the start cap. is easy to identify being the largest/only capacitor? If I buy one of the same capacitance and same voltage rating, should everything be ok? On many motors they are housed in a bulge on the side of the motor... What would cause the cap to fail: is it age? I bought the mower about eight years ago, is that good for a lawn mower/start cap? How long should they last? They can dry out, or leak... I had a similar problem on my SIP chip collector recently. The cap looked rather knackered - the outer case was leaking and it was a bit soggy! Why does the motor get louder when the cap fails, and why is there the clunking noise? Have I understood wikipedia correctly, is it that the cap is broken so it does not supply enough current to get the motor started? The cap is there to create a phase shifted supply voltage (in effect creating another phase to create a rotating magnetic field that will drag the armature around). Once it is spinning, its no longer needed (the momentum of the armature and the slight "slip" caused by the mechanical load on it, will keep it moving) and a centrifugal switch will normally switch the cap out of circuit. You normally hear a clunk when the switch activates - normally as it is coming up to speed, or as it spins down. Alternatively you may be hearing a solenoid clicking or something like that. There is no reason why it would get louder as it fails - however once it is failing to spin and just stalling at startup, you will get a loud hum from the motor as it just sits there with the armature buzzing in the alternating magnetic field. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#9
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broken lawn mower
Stephen wrote:
Pete thought you had a cylinder mower by the sounds of it. Thanks for the explanation. Are cylinders better than rotaries, should I need to buy a new one? I found this: http://www.mtmc.co.uk/prodtype.asp?P...ageHistory=cat which is nearer the mark to what I have but even that has a motor for �80, which I am sure is more than I paid for the mower, that's inflation for you. I guess if it needed a new motor, I would be best to buy a new mower; let's hope I can just swap the cap though. BTW I notice what I call the blade, that site alls the knife, is looking a bit worse for wear. Can these be sharpened on a bench grinder or is there a better way? Thanks again. easy to grind the blade, and it makes a real difference to performance. They do get in a sorry state. I always ground in situ, with an angle grinder. Dont forget the grind should be one sided, so the grass cuttings are whisked upwards. NT |
#10
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broken lawn mower
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... Stephen wrote: Pete thought you had a cylinder mower by the sounds of it. Thanks for the explanation. Are cylinders better than rotaries, should I need to buy a new one? Nothing cuts grass cleaner than a well sharpened and set cylinder. Nothing gets out of whack faster, that a cylinder and wood, stones or children's toys. Your choice. A bit of a broad description, but nearly right. A good sharp and balanced blade on a rotary will tackle longer grass than a reel mower and still give satisfactory results, often on uneven ground. The actual "cut" leaves the grass more susceptible to ingress of disease if not razor sharp as there is a tearing rather than true cutting action. Clearing the cut grass from the cutting area is essential to reduce load and throw to the box (If fitted) this can be achieved by the shape of the rear of the blade being used to clear the sward from the cutting area. Watching the cut as it happens and seeing a trail of grass behind often indicates that the bag is full, the blade clogged or the exit chute is blocked. Reduction in blade rotation speed then overloads the motor causing premature failure. Usually heard on a petrol when the engine labours. A good sharp bottom blade (AKA Bedknife) and reel with "Fag paper" thickness clearance between the two will give a finer and more uniform cut giving the nice striped effect from the following roller. Commonest mistake my DIYers is to have the reel touching the bottom blade, just produces heat and noise while wearing out both. Backlapping is usually not possible on anything other than commercial units so cannot be done. Running a file over the bottom blade front edge a few degrees off vertical can be a quick way of gaining a "new"" sharp edge before re-mowing the next time. See diagram 10 on the pdf file at http://www.peoplepoweredmachines.com...ers_Manual.pdf for a description of setting the clearance etc. Works for powered mowers equally as well. After 15 years in the trade as a Golf Course machinery mechanic I have tried all sorts of combinations. It's really a case of "Horses for Courses" with your own decision based on the size of plot and the effect or cut style required and whether the area is being prepared for leisure or other purposes. 650 acres of varying heights and grass types is a lot to mow with a reel ;-) |
#11
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broken lawn mower
John Rumm wrote:
Stephen wrote: On 25 Apr 2009 18:10:11 GMT, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote: Sounds like it's an induction motor with a dead start/run capacitor. The test for this is to see if it starts if you give it a spin, but this is rather dangerous, obviously, so it's up to you if you think you can do this safely without removing fingers. (Don't spin it with your hand!) Thank you. I think you may be right. When I bought the lawn mower I am sure that the marketing emphasised that it had an induction motor, saying that induction motors were quieter than other types of motor. Is that true? I have had a quick look on wikipedia to find out what an Yup, much quieter than a universal motor - which is the other common alternative. induction motor is but I didn't see anything about noise or power compared to other (synchronous ?) motors. The neighbours' mowers do seem louder, so are induction powered mowers rare? They are getting much more common - since rules about noise emissions have tightened. They also have a much more suited torque curve for grass cutting - developing maximum at full speed, rather than maximum when stalled. I don't think that the exploded view I quoted in my other reply shows a capacitor. Is it an integral part of the motor? I hope not because that web site prices the motor at more than thrice the cost of the mower! I presume the start cap. is easy to identify being the largest/only capacitor? If I buy one of the same capacitance and same voltage rating, should everything be ok? On many motors they are housed in a bulge on the side of the motor... What would cause the cap to fail: is it age? I bought the mower about eight years ago, is that good for a lawn mower/start cap? How long should they last? They can dry out, or leak... I had a similar problem on my SIP chip collector recently. The cap looked rather knackered - the outer case was leaking and it was a bit soggy! Why does the motor get louder when the cap fails, and why is there the clunking noise? Have I understood wikipedia correctly, is it that the cap is broken so it does not supply enough current to get the motor started? The cap is there to create a phase shifted supply voltage (in effect creating another phase to create a rotating magnetic field that will drag the armature around). Once it is spinning, its no longer needed (the momentum of the armature and the slight "slip" caused by the mechanical load on it, will keep it moving) and a centrifugal switch will normally switch the cap out of circuit. You normally hear a clunk when the switch activates - normally as it is coming up to speed, or as it spins down. Alternatively you may be hearing a solenoid clicking or something like that. There is no reason why it would get louder as it fails - however once it is failing to spin and just stalling at startup, you will get a loud hum from the motor as it just sits there with the armature buzzing in the alternating magnetic field. I think there is also a requirement for the motor/blade to stop within a few seconds (10?) after switching off. The noise you hear may possibly be an automatic brake being released. Bob |
#12
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broken lawn mower
On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:21:24 +0100, John Rumm
wrote: They can dry out, or leak... I had a similar problem on my SIP chip collector recently. The cap looked rather knackered - the outer case was leaking and it was a bit soggy! Thank you for all the replies. I removed part of the lawn mower body from above the motor: it was held in place by three clips, one on each side. Looking into the mower I can see the motor and the capacitor is bolted onto the side of the motor, so I am hoping I can change the capacitor without having to change the motor. I'm hoping this way I can make a cheap repair rather than have to buy an expensive new mower. The side of the capacitor is obscured by the mower body. I need to remove the motor to read what is on the side of the cap. Incidentally, there does seem to be a bulge three quarters of the way up the capacitor. Does this indicate failure? I tried to spin the blade using a garden cane and standing well back whilst wearing goggles and the motor will run once spun, so I guess this confirms it? On the motor is a label which says "CB 12uF 450VDB". Is this referring to the start capacitor? I am puzzled by the VDB: 450 Volts but what is DB? To remove the motor to read the capacitor directly I need to remove four 17mm bolts. Unfortunately these are recessed and I cannot fit a socket or box spanner into the recess. Any idea how I loosen these? It looks as though the two wires from the cap goes straight into the motor, which presents me with a second problem: how to connect a replacement capacitor? Will the capacitor still be holding a charge. Do I have to be very careful handling it? If so, what is the safest way to discharge it so that it no longer poses a threat? Thanks. |
#13
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broken lawn mower
Sorry to reply to myself.I had another go. What I thought were nylon
nuts were actually covers. Once I flipped these off I found smaller steel nuts that I could fit a socket around. The motor is now loose but it is too big to get out the hole, so I've got to work out how to remove the rest of the mower body! Why aren't these things simple? |
#14
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broken lawn mower
Stephen wrote:
On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:21:24 +0100, John Rumm wrote: They can dry out, or leak... I had a similar problem on my SIP chip collector recently. The cap looked rather knackered - the outer case was leaking and it was a bit soggy! Thank you for all the replies. I removed part of the lawn mower body from above the motor: it was held in place by three clips, one on each side. Looking into the mower I can see the motor and the capacitor is bolted onto the side of the motor, so I am hoping I can change the capacitor without having to change the motor. I'm hoping this way I can make a cheap repair rather than have to buy an expensive new mower. The side of the capacitor is obscured by the mower body. I need to remove the motor to read what is on the side of the cap. Incidentally, there does seem to be a bulge three quarters of the way up the capacitor. Does this indicate failure? I tried to spin the blade using a garden cane and standing well back whilst wearing goggles and the motor will run once spun, so I guess this confirms it? On the motor is a label which says "CB 12uF 450VDB". Is this referring to the start capacitor? I am puzzled by the VDB: 450 Volts but what is DB? DC it should be. Peak voltage of 230vAC is about 400-415v. So 450V DC ~ 250VAC. To remove the motor to read the capacitor directly I need to remove four 17mm bolts. Unfortunately these are recessed and I cannot fit a socket or box spanner into the recess. Any idea how I loosen these? Get a slender box. It looks as though the two wires from the cap goes straight into the motor, which presents me with a second problem: how to connect a replacement capacitor? Solder or crimp to cut wires, or dismantle motor. Will the capacitor still be holding a charge. Do I have to be very careful handling it? If so, what is the safest way to discharge it so that it no longer poses a threat? No. Almost certainly not. its generally shorted by the totality of the windings. Thanks. |
#15
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broken lawn mower
In article ,
Stephen writes: Thank you for all the replies. I removed part of the lawn mower body from above the motor: it was held in place by three clips, one on each side. Looking into the mower I can see the motor and the capacitor is bolted onto the side of the motor, so I am hoping I can change the capacitor without having to change the motor. I'm hoping this way I can make a cheap repair rather than have to buy an expensive new mower. The side of the capacitor is obscured by the mower body. I need to remove the motor to read what is on the side of the cap. Incidentally, there does seem to be a bulge three quarters of the way up the capacitor. Does this indicate failure? I tried to spin the blade using a garden cane and standing well back whilst wearing goggles and the motor will run once spun, so I guess this confirms it? On the motor is a label which says "CB 12uF 450VDB". Is this referring to the start capacitor? I am puzzled by the VDB: 450 Volts but what is DB? It's probably VAC. Go to http://cpc.farnel.co.uk and type "motor start capacitor 12uf" into the search box, and you should have two choices -- a wire-ended one, and a blade terminal one. The actual capacitance value isn't very important - the higher the value, the higher the starting torque, but the higher the current draw. The voltage should be 400VAC or higher, but all start capacitors are anyway. Check the physical size will fit, and if it won't, go down to the next smaller capacitance value. To remove the motor to read the capacitor directly I need to remove four 17mm bolts. Unfortunately these are recessed and I cannot fit a socket or box spanner into the recess. Any idea how I loosen these? It looks as though the two wires from the cap goes straight into the motor, which presents me with a second problem: how to connect a replacement capacitor? Maybe push-on blade connectors at the capacitor. If not, get a wire ended one, and cut/join the wires. Will the capacitor still be holding a charge. Do I have to be very careful handling it? If so, what is the safest way to discharge it so that it no longer poses a threat? Probably not, as it's dead. Also, don't power it up for a while before opening it. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#16
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broken lawn mower
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:08:22 +0100, "R" wrote:
Bulge in cap' usually means FKD. Discharge it by shorting the wires together if you're worried, (Use insulated pliers) but if it's bulging already it's had it. I managed to dismantle the mower. It was simpler than I first thought. Just a few well hidden screws. I wasn't sure if I touched the two wires together whether it would go bang. Don't I need a series resistor? Judging from the other posts though, it should discharge through the motor windings? |
#18
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broken lawn mower
"Stephen" wrote in message ... On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:08:22 +0100, "R" wrote: Bulge in cap' usually means FKD. Discharge it by shorting the wires together if you're worried, (Use insulated pliers) but if it's bulging already it's had it. I managed to dismantle the mower. It was simpler than I first thought. Just a few well hidden screws. I wasn't sure if I touched the two wires together whether it would go bang. Don't I need a series resistor? Judging from the other posts though, it should discharge through the motor windings? Well it's past 9pm, you're still alive and persevering well. Follow the ideas and recommendations from Andrew below and you'll get there |
#19
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broken lawn mower
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:22:04 +0100, "R" wrote:
Well it's past 9pm, you're still alive and persevering well. Follow the ideas and recommendations from Andrew below and you'll get there Don't worry, I wasn't still working on it at 9pm! I was unsure at first because I could not see how to remove the mower cover and I worried it was a disposable sealed unit with no "user serviceable parts inside". It looked as though it was held together with plastic rivets but I eventually found some screws in the wheel arches. I had already looked at CPC but my capacitor had two leads molded into it, that ran to a connector block on the side of the motor. The block seemed quite loose and I didn't want to pull the wires with any force for fear of breaking the internal connections inside the motor. Fortunately the wire did pull out and had a flat, not fault (spell checker mistake), connector. From the CPC side it would appear they are called "blade" connectors. I will try and re-use mine. The capacitor has arrived today but has a brown wire and a blue wire. I guess it's electrolytic? The old cap had two white wires and there are no markings on the connector. Which one should I connect where or doesn't it matter (or will it make the motor run backwards)? Thanks again for all your help, you have saved me a fortune I'm sure. |
#20
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broken lawn mower
In article ,
Stephen writes: On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:22:04 +0100, "R" wrote: Well it's past 9pm, you're still alive and persevering well. Follow the ideas and recommendations from Andrew below and you'll get there Don't worry, I wasn't still working on it at 9pm! I was unsure at first because I could not see how to remove the mower cover and I worried it was a disposable sealed unit with no "user serviceable parts inside". It looked as though it was held together with plastic rivets but I eventually found some screws in the wheel arches. I had already looked at CPC but my capacitor had two leads molded into it, that ran to a connector block on the side of the motor. The block seemed quite loose and I didn't want to pull the wires with any force for fear of breaking the internal connections inside the motor. Fortunately the wire did pull out and had a flat, not fault (spell checker mistake), connector. From the CPC side it would appear they are called "blade" connectors. I will try and re-use mine. The capacitor has arrived today but has a brown wire and a blue wire. I guess it's electrolytic? The old cap had two white wires and there are no markings on the connector. Which one should I connect where or doesn't it matter (or will it make the motor run backwards)? Doesn't matter which way around, and that won't change the direction. Providing it's marked VAC, it's not an electrolytic. Thanks again for all your help, you have saved me a fortune I'm sure. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#21
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broken lawn mower
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#22
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broken lawn mower
On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:31:26 +0100, Stephen wrote:
Does anyone know what these are called or where I can get a pair? Probably standard 1/4" blades (male, flat) or the female for a blade with the edges rolled around. Halfords sell 'em or you could just solder the wires to the original connectors or carefully uncrimp them, though getting a decent connection after uncrimping without soldering is tricky. -- Cheers Dave. |
#23
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broken lawn mower
On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:05:16 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: Probably standard 1/4" blades (male, flat) or the female for a blade with the edges rolled around. Halfords sell 'em or you could just solder the wires to the original connectors or carefully uncrimp them, though getting a decent connection after uncrimping without soldering is tricky. I had hoped to uncrimp and re-use the originals but I could not open them. How are you supposed to do that? I looked at RS, CPC, Maplin but they didn't have what I was looking for. What I need is slightly longer than the common-size blade terminal that they all sell. It is very difficult to see what I would be buying on these websites as they tend to use a generic photo rather than a close-up photo of the specific item. I did try to read some of the RS datasheets but they were nothing more than sketches and the measurements were in inches! I did the sensible thing and went for a walk around some "real" shops where I could hold the crimps in my hands. I had no joy with a number of electrical shops nor car shops until I went to Halfords who suggested a hidden auto electric shop that I had never heard of before. It was like a trade counter so I couldn't see what else they sold but they went into a drawer and magically produced what I needed. I've never crimped before and didn't do a very good job of it but I soldered it as well, so the solder did the trick even if the crimping did not. Where can I learn more about how to crimp properly and what tool do you recommend? Thank you all once again for all your help. The mower is back to normal again and it cost less than £5. You have been a fantastic help. Thank you. |
#24
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broken lawn mower
Stephen wrote:
Where can I learn more about how to crimp properly and what tool do you recommend? For insulated crimps there is not much to it: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Cable_crimping The uninsulated type sometimes require a little more care to fold the claws round the wire. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#25
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broken lawn mower
John Rumm wrote:
Stephen wrote: Where can I learn more about how to crimp properly and what tool do you recommend? For insulated crimps there is not much to it: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Cable_crimping Superb article John, well done. -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
#26
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broken lawn mower
On Sat, 02 May 2009 22:49:11 +0100, John Rumm
wrote: For insulated crimps there is not much to it: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Cable_crimping Thank you that was very useful. Unfortunately these were uninsulated crimps, so I'll have to wait for part two. |
#27
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broken lawn mower
The Medway Handyman wrote:
John Rumm wrote: Stephen wrote: Where can I learn more about how to crimp properly and what tool do you recommend? For insulated crimps there is not much to it: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Cable_crimping Superb article John, well done. Well thank you... but that one has been there for ages! -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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