Hi All,

I am looking to buy a pressurised cylinder for my house and the
plumber has recommended either a Megaflo or Santon. Apparently both
made by the same company but under different brand names. He usually
fits Megaflo's as they are a neater solution (Santon's have an
external expansion tank apparently) but in our case, suggested looking
at the Santon as ours will be hidden in the garage.

Given the price difference (£350), it would seem sensible to go for
the Santon however I was wondering if anyone has had any experience or
any views on the 2 options. Part of me says that going for the more
expensive option would be safer but if they are ultimately of the same
quality with the same guarantee......

Any views and help appreciated.

thanks in advance

Lee.

wrote:
Hi All,

I am looking to buy a pressurised cylinder for my house and the
plumber has recommended either a Megaflo or Santon. Apparently both
made by the same company but under different brand names. He usually
fits Megaflo's as they are a neater solution (Santon's have an
external expansion tank apparently) but in our case, suggested looking
at the Santon as ours will be hidden in the garage.

Given the price difference (£350), it would seem sensible to go for
the Santon however I was wondering if anyone has had any experience or
any views on the 2 options. Part of me says that going for the more
expensive option would be safer but if they are ultimately of the same
quality with the same guarantee......

Any views and help appreciated.

thanks in advance

Lee.

There is a (rather old) discussion on this very subject over at DIYnot:-

http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31348

Have you thought about a thermal store instead? Theoretically safer,
easier to install and no need for the annual service... Or perhaps the
Vailant 937 combi with it's built in store.

Regards,

Steve

wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I am looking to buy a pressurised cylinder for my house and the
plumber has recommended either a Megaflo or Santon.


Do not buy one of these. Tell him, do not take any notice if he presses
you, you want either:

1. A high flow combi.
2. A vented heat bank (this is far more than an unvented cylinder
equivallent as it offers an eseential CH buffer.

This is what unvented cylinder can do. Unvented cylinders? They need a £100
per year service and they blow up...

Water heater blasts:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=pu3FwgIHsQA
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=GF_Wrm-Ns0I

http://www.masterplumbers.com/plumbn...1/dec/avon.asp
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/33094_boom28.shtml
http://www2.canada.com/edmonton/edmo...0-5c298527e2d5

http://www.abc15.com/news/local/stor...FSrKb_osA.cspx

http://i43.tinypic.com/2d3s6v.jpg%20

http://i43.tinypic.com/ehg7l0.jpg%20

http://www.abc15.com/media/news/c/0/...0/Original.jpg

An exploding water heater ripped apart a north Phoenix home Thursday
morning.

Video from Air15, near 40th Street and Thunderbird Road, showed a hole in
the roof of the garage, a pile of rubble, and debris blown out into the
neighborhood.

Watch the RAW VIDEO of the explosion scene

The water heater ended up on a sidewalk about two blocks away, across from a
school.

Fire spokesman Victor Rangel said the temperature and pressure valve
malfunctioned, sending the water heater skyrocketing.

Nearby residents were evacuated as a Southwest Gas crew and agents from
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms investigated. Neighbors were allowed back into
their homes after about two hours.

Many neighbors described the sound of a bomb, with windows shattering, walls
shaking, and in one home pictures falling off walls.

A neighbor's wall was damaged by the explosion, which also broke windows in
a house across the street.

One woman who lives two blocks away said the blast knocked all the pictures
off her walls.

Click related link to right to see a water heater explosion.

Most of the damage occured to the house next door and directly across the
street. However debris from the blast could be seen in yards and on roof
tops.

According to Phoenix firefighters, the owner of the house was asleep when
the blast ripped apart his garage about 5 a.m.

Red Cross relocated the homeowner.

No one was injured.

Rangel said he's never seen this happen and he'd spoken to several plumbers
who had heard of hot water heaters exploding, but had never seen it happen.

He said homeowners need to keep up with the maintenance of water heaters;
sometimes the T and P valves become corroded or have been installed
improperly.

Rangel suggests having the units checked by a professional, especially for
people buying homes that have gone through foreclosure. A home bought after
a foreclosure might not have gone through an inspection, especially in a
short sale.

Water heater warnings and tips from the Phoenix Fire Department Most of the
time, your water heater just sits where it's been placed, quietly doing its
job. But unlike your family pet, if it's unhappy it's not going to walk to
the door and bark and scratch. It could just suddenly blow up like the one
that exploded this morning near Thunderbird Road and 38th Street.

What? You didn't know that your water heater could be so lethal? It can be
if a tank has been improperly installed, if hazards have been allowed to
develop over time, if it has been improperly vented, or if the pressure
relief valve has been tampered with.

Here are some safety tips to use when operating your hot water heater:

TEMPERATURE/PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE (T&P)

This valve is designed to prevent a tank from exploding if temperature or
pressure exceeds safe limits, by opening and venting. Unfortunately,
residential valves are somewhat prone to failure. They should be checked
once a year by pulling up on the handle. Water should flow freely out and
stop when you let go of the handle. If it does nothing, runs or drips, then
the valve should be replaced. Hooking up the drain line with a union or flex
connector makes T&P replacement MUCH easier.
People don't like to test their T&Ps. But when water heaters explode, it's
catastrophic. People are injured or die; buildings are severely damaged.
Test your T&Ps!

Also, T&P drain lines should go down and out. Never up. If the valve opens,
water will pool there and corrode it shut.

Finally, if water is running out of your T&P line, look for the cause. It
might just be a bad T&P. But it could also signal high-pressure problems or
a dangerously defective control. Don't ignore it!

Doctor Drivel wrote:
An exploding water heater ripped apart a north Phoenix home Thursday
morning.


That's Phoenix, Arizona. The designs of these things are different in
the USA.

Drivel is obsessed with combis and generally not well regarded.

Andy

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:22:30 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

That's Phoenix, Arizona. The designs of these things are different in
the USA.

Though the basic principle of a body of hot water under pressure relying
on various mechanical devices to prevent a steam explosion - a remote
probability but a devastating consequence - is the same.


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Pessimists are never disappointed

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
. uk...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
An exploding water heater ripped apart a north Phoenix home Thursday
morning.


That's Phoenix, Arizona. The designs of these things are different in the
USA.

Not much, they still have T&P valves like us. Understand the points being
made.

"YAPH" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:22:30 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

That's Phoenix, Arizona. The designs of these things are different in
the USA.

Though the basic principle of a body of hot water under pressure relying
on various mechanical devices to prevent a steam explosion - a remote
probability but a devastating consequence - is the same.

They think there is a different atmosphere in the USA.

On 24 Feb, 00:15, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"YAPH" wrote in message

...

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:22:30 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

That's Phoenix, Arizona. *The designs of these things are different in
the USA.

Though the basic principle of a body of hot water under pressure relying
on various mechanical devices to prevent a steam explosion - a remote
probability but a devastating consequence - is the same.

They think there is a different atmosphere in the USA.

I have just spoken with Megaflo technical support and they said that
there are 2 main differences...
1. the Santon has an external expansion vessel
2. the lady checked with a colleague and said that the Megaflo has
pipework which seperates the hot and cold water. When I asked what
this meant, she said that the Santon mixes them (i.e. the hot from the
tank mixed with the cold inlet). This seems very odd to me and
looking at their installation manuals online, the pipework diagrams
look identical except for the external expansion vessel.

Can anyone shed any light on the second point?

thanks

Lee.

wrote in message
...
On 24 Feb, 00:15, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"YAPH" wrote in message

...

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:22:30 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

That's Phoenix, Arizona. The designs of these things are different in
the USA.

Though the basic principle of a body of hot water under pressure relying
on various mechanical devices to prevent a steam explosion - a remote
probability but a devastating consequence - is the same.

They think there is a different atmosphere in the USA.

I have just spoken with Megaflo technical support and they said that
there are 2 main differences...
1. the Santon has an external expansion vessel
2. the lady checked with a colleague and said that the Megaflo has
pipework which seperates the hot and cold water. When I asked what
this meant, she said that the Santon mixes them (i.e. the hot from the
tank mixed with the cold inlet). This seems very odd to me and
looking at their installation manuals online, the pipework diagrams
look identical except for the external expansion vessel.

Can anyone shed any light on the second point?


Yes. Abandon the ridiculous idea and get one of these which will give a CH
buffer as well. Get the version with the plate heat exchanger:
http://www.rangecylinders.co.uk/products/flowmax/

The CH need not have any wall stat and just a Smart pump and TRV's all
around. Inefficient boiler cycling is eliminated. Fit a Magnaclean filter
on the CH return to the cylinder - these should be fitted on all systems.

Buying an unvented cylinder is foolish.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...


http://www.abc15.com/news/local/stor...FSrKb_osA.cspx

Have a look at
http://www.azfamily.com/video/localn...ml?nvid=272949

Shows that pressure relief valve had been replaced with a blanking plug.

I think it takes a fair degree of determination & incompetance to blow one
up. For many folk, the risk of this happening with a competantly installed
cylinder is small enough for them to bear.

I'd image that the number of explosions resulting from an unvented cylinder
heated by a conventional boiler must be in the order of zero.

Tim

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...


http://www.abc15.com/news/local/stor...FSrKb_osA.cspx

Have a look at
http://www.azfamily.com/video/localn...ml?nvid=272949

Shows that pressure relief valve had been replaced with a blanking plug.

I think it takes a fair degree of determination & incompetance to blow one
up. For many folk, the risk of this happening with a competantly
installed cylinder is small enough for them to bear.

I'd image that the number of explosions resulting from an unvented
cylinder heated by a conventional boiler must be in the order of zero.

Not so. Stop being silly. Look at the links and what was posted. A T&P
valve failed on one which took off through the roof and landed a few streets
away. T&P valves are on UK cylinders. In the UK they have to be serviced
(£100 per year) and if not the T&P valve can seal up solid over time if not
opened or tested and a failure .............boooooooooooom. The text I
posted emphases servicing. Will this be done on all of these cylinders?
Not course not.

Many of these cylinders are time bombs. There is a near zero-risk superior
alternative. Use one of those.

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...

I think it takes a fair degree of determination & incompetance to blow one
up. For many folk, the risk of this happening with a competantly
installed cylinder is small enough for them to bear.

They have the potential for dormant faults that can accumulate over time.
When there have been lots about for about thirty years you will hear about
more explosions as the safety devices fail.
Then there will be a law passed that requires annual inspection to check all
the safety device work.

dennis@home wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...

I think it takes a fair degree of determination & incompetance to
blow one up. For many folk, the risk of this happening with a
competantly installed cylinder is small enough for them to bear.

They have the potential for dormant faults that can accumulate over
time. When there have been lots about for about thirty years you will
hear about more explosions as the safety devices fail.

I don't deny any of that but I think the duplication of safety devices on
modern cyclinders probably renders that risk very small indeed.

Also, the majoity of people will be heating them with a gas boiler and as I
said, the risk of explosion when heated this way is probably zero.

Then there will be a law passed that requires annual inspection to
check all the safety device work.

So the "annual inspection required" is at present, a myth?

Tim

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...

Also, the majoity of people will be heating them with a gas boiler and as
I said, the risk of explosion when heated this way is probably zero.

zero? Wow!! You need to have an engineering mind.

Then there will be a law passed that requires annual inspection to
check all the safety device work.

So the "annual inspection required" is at present, a myth?

No. All makes stipulate it. No to do so will render insurance void. If
anyone is killed you may be prosecuted too.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...

Also, the majoity of people will be heating them with a gas boiler
and as I said, the risk of explosion when heated this way is
probably zero.

zero? Wow!! You need to have an engineering mind.

Then there will be a law passed that requires annual inspection to
check all the safety device work.

So the "annual inspection required" is at present, a myth?

No. All makes stipulate it.

I wasn't really questioning the advisability of having an inspection, I'm
just curious as to who has to do this inspection and whether it's actually
enshrined in law. Is it actually specified anywhere that it has to be a
professional installer who does the inspection or can it be any "competant
person"?

Tim

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...

Also, the majoity of people will be heating them with a gas boiler
and as I said, the risk of explosion when heated this way is
probably zero.

zero? Wow!! You need to have an engineering mind.

Then there will be a law passed that requires annual inspection to
check all the safety device work.

So the "annual inspection required" is at present, a myth?

No. All makes stipulate it.

I wasn't really questioning the advisability of having an inspection, I'm
just curious as to who has to do this inspection and whether it's actually
enshrined in law. Is it actually specified anywhere that it has to be a
professional installer who does the inspection or can it be any "competant
person"?

It is enshrined in law. Only approved installers can install or service
these devices. No DIY whatsoever. You can DIY gas if you are "competent",
not unvented cylinders.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...
It is enshrined in law. Only approved installers can install or service
these devices. No DIY whatsoever. You can DIY gas if you are "competent",
not unvented cylinders.

To say it is enshrined in law I think overstates it as I do not believe you
necessarily commit any criminal offence by installing or servicing an
unvented tank yourself.

The relevant extract from the building regulations 2000 section 13 is:

(4) Where building work involves the provision of a hot water storage system
in relation to which paragraph G3 of Schedule 1 (hot water storage) imposes
a requirement, a building notice shall be accompanied by a statement which
specifies -



(a) the name, make, model and type of hot water storage system to be
installed;



(b) the name of the body, if any, which has approved or certified that the
system is capable of performing in a way which satisfies the requirements of
paragraph G3 of Schedule 1;



(c) the name of the body, if any, which has issued any current registered
operative identity card to the installer or proposed installer of the
system.



So you have to pre-notify and if the BCO does not like what you are doing it
will not be approved



The guidance part of the Approved Document G3 then says:



3.8 The unit or package should be installed by a competent person, i.e. one
holding a Registered Operative identity card for the installation of
unvented domestic hot water storgage systems.



Note *should* not *must*. So again if the BCO is happy with what you have
done or for some reason does not realise it was a diy job and signs it off
then I cannot see that an offence has been committed.



I stand by to be corrected if someone can point out other bits of
legislation.



Regards

Bruce

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...

Also, the majoity of people will be heating them with a gas boiler
and as I said, the risk of explosion when heated this way is
probably zero.

zero? Wow!! You need to have an engineering mind.

Then there will be a law passed that requires annual inspection to
check all the safety device work.

So the "annual inspection required" is at present, a myth?

No. All makes stipulate it.

I wasn't really questioning the advisability of having an
inspection, I'm just curious as to who has to do this inspection and
whether it's actually enshrined in law. Is it actually specified
anywhere that it has to be a professional installer who does the
inspection or can it be any "competant person"?

It is enshrined in law.

So you say but just saying so don't make it true. Where can I view this
"law"?

Tim

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 04:41:03 -0800, leenowell wrote:

On 24 Feb, 00:15, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"YAPH" wrote in message

...

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:22:30 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

That's Phoenix, Arizona. Â*The designs of these things are different
in the USA.

Though the basic principle of a body of hot water under pressure
relying on various mechanical devices to prevent a steam explosion -
a remote probability but a devastating consequence - is the same.

They think there is a different atmosphere in the USA.

I have just spoken with Megaflo technical support and they said that
there are 2 main differences...
1. the Santon has an external expansion vessel 2. the lady checked with
a colleague and said that the Megaflo has pipework which seperates the
hot and cold water. When I asked what this meant, she said that the
Santon mixes them (i.e. the hot from the tank mixed with the cold
inlet). This seems very odd to me and looking at their installation
manuals online, the pipework diagrams look identical except for the
external expansion vessel.

Can anyone shed any light on the second point?

thanks

Lee.

There are two differences:

First the external or internal expansion vessel. You'd think that the
internal vessel (essentially an ullage pocket in the cylinder itself)
would simplify things. However IME the air pocket keeps dissolving away
(in a time scale of months) and requires renewing (by partially draining
the cylinder - whihc is easy enough).

If you are an organized and competent owner then there is no problem. IME
99% of owners aren't and the internal pockets all dissolve away and all
the cylinders then dribble water out of the the discharge pipes.

Obviously with the external ones the only problem apart from finding
somewhere to put it occurs if the vessel fails. On balance the external
vessel wins in my book for 99% of ordinary users.

The other matter relates to the the blending of Hot and Cold supplies.
The Megaflow does not do this. It has a pressure balanced CW outlet so
the supply of H and C is at the same pressure as the cylinder. Thus
enabling non thermostatic mixers to function pretty well.

Some cylinders (Santon dunno, Elston certainly) thermostatically blend
the outlet HW with CW to produce a consistent and reasonable HW temp.
This mainly for cylinders which are heated by electricity (off peak) so
they can store water at 75C but blend it to 55C as it is drawn off.
With an indirect heating coil the thermostat sets the cylinder temp to
(say 57C) and blending the output is not so important.

HTH

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 04:41:03 -0800, leenowell wrote:

On 24 Feb, 00:15, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"YAPH" wrote in message

...

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:22:30 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

That's Phoenix, Arizona. Â The designs of these things are different
in the USA.

Though the basic principle of a body of hot water under pressure
relying on various mechanical devices to prevent a steam explosion -
a remote probability but a devastating consequence - is the same.

They think there is a different atmosphere in the USA.

I have just spoken with Megaflo technical support and they said that
there are 2 main differences...
1. the Santon has an external expansion vessel 2. the lady checked with
a colleague and said that the Megaflo has pipework which seperates the
hot and cold water. When I asked what this meant, she said that the
Santon mixes them (i.e. the hot from the tank mixed with the cold
inlet). This seems very odd to me and looking at their installation
manuals online, the pipework diagrams look identical except for the
external expansion vessel.

Can anyone shed any light on the second point?

thanks

Lee.

There are two differences:

First the external or internal expansion vessel. You'd think that the
internal vessel (essentially an ullage pocket in the cylinder itself)
would simplify things. However IME the air pocket keeps dissolving away
(in a time scale of months) and requires renewing (by partially draining
the cylinder - whihc is easy enough).

Not you are a 70 year old female pensioner.

Obviously with the external ones the only problem apart from finding
somewhere to put it occurs if the vessel fails. On balance the external
vessel wins in my book for 99% of ordinary users.

What about the explosions. Do you think they win too?

"BruceB" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...
It is enshrined in law. Only approved installers can install or service
these devices. No DIY whatsoever. You can DIY gas if you are
"competent", not unvented cylinders.

To say it is enshrined in law I think overstates it as I do not believe
you necessarily commit any criminal offence by installing or servicing an
unvented tank yourself.

Either you have to be certified, or the installation id done by yourself and
passed by a BCO.

The guidance part of the Approved Document G3 then says:

3.8 The unit or package should be installed by a competent person, i.e.
one holding a Registered Operative identity card for the installation of
unvented domestic hot water storgage systems.

Note *should* not *must*. So again if the BCO is happy with what you have
done or for some reason does not realise it was a diy job and signs it off
then I cannot see that an offence has been committed.

As I said, you have to be a) certified, otherwise b) it is passed by a BCO.
You can DIY, well sort of, but with BCO control. The servicing has to be by
a certified man. A BCO does not sign off the servicing.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

You can DIY, well sort of, but with BCO control. The servicing has to be
by a certified man. A BCO does not sign off the servicing.



What is the regulation that says the servicing has to be done by a certified
man?
Regards
Bruce

Doctor Drivel wrote:
It is enshrined in law. Only approved installers can install or
service these devices. No DIY whatsoever. You can DIY gas if you are
"competent", not unvented cylinders.

But then he said:

As I said, you have to be a) certified, otherwise b) it is passed by
a BCO. You can DIY, well sort of, but with BCO control.

My goodness! Could it be that Drivel was wrong about something??

The
servicing has to be by a certified man. A BCO does not sign off the
servicing.

You were wrong once. Could it happen again?

Tim

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:46:40 +0000, Tim Downie wrote:

You were wrong once. Could it happen again?

Nah, he was just "otherwise right" ;-)

--
John Stumbles

Teenagers: tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?
Act now! Move out, get a job and pay your own bills,
while you still know everything!

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:46:40 +0000, Tim Downie wrote:

You were wrong once. Could it happen again?

Nah, he was just "otherwise right" ;-)

Or is he just.

" a) certified "


--
John Stumbles

Teenagers: tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?
Act now! Move out, get a job and pay your own bills,
while you still know everything!

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
It is enshrined in law. Only approved installers can install or
service these devices. No DIY whatsoever. You can DIY gas if you are
"competent", not unvented cylinders.

But then he said:

As I said, you have to be a) certified, otherwise b) it is passed by
a BCO. You can DIY, well sort of, but with BCO control.

My goodness! Could it be that Drivel was wrong about something??

The
servicing has to be by a certified man. A BCO does not sign off the
servicing.

You were wrong once. Could it happen again?

Not wrong.

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:46:40 +0000, Tim Downie wrote:

You were wrong once. Could it happen again?

Nah, he was just "otherwise right" ;-)

Correct.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
Buying an unvented cylinder is foolish.

I can agree with that. But what's wrong with a vented cylinder?

Andy

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
. uk...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Buying an unvented cylinder is foolish.

I can agree with that. But what's wrong with a vented cylinder?

Nothing. The pressure is just poor at showers....and you have a tank in the
loft.

"BruceB" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

You can DIY, well sort of, but with BCO control. The servicing has to be
by a certified man. A BCO does not sign off the servicing.



What is the regulation that says the servicing has to be done by a
certified man?
Regards
Bruce

DR DRIVEL
You asserted that the servicing has to be done by a certified man. I am
genuinely interested in where you have read that because I have not found
it. Although I have a heat bank in one part of my property, I am about to
install (I think for good reasons) an unvented tank in another part of it.
I am an engineer and feel well able to do any necessary annual servicing so
would like to read any regulations on it if you can direct me to them.
Regards
Bruce

BruceB wrote:
"BruceB" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

You can DIY, well sort of, but with BCO control. The servicing has to be
by a certified man. A BCO does not sign off the servicing.


What is the regulation that says the servicing has to be done by a
certified man?
Regards
Bruce

DR DRIVEL
You asserted that the servicing has to be done by a certified man. I am
genuinely interested in where you have read that because I have not found
it. Although I have a heat bank in one part of my property, I am about to
install (I think for good reasons) an unvented tank in another part of it.
I am an engineer and feel well able to do any necessary annual servicing so
would like to read any regulations on it if you can direct me to them.
Regards
Bruce


Hi

Google for Building Regulations Part G3

Steve

Steve Lupton wrote:
BruceB wrote:
"BruceB" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

You can DIY, well sort of, but with BCO control. The servicing
has to be by a certified man. A BCO does not sign off the
servicing.
What is the regulation that says the servicing has to be done by a
certified man?
Regards
Bruce

DR DRIVEL
You asserted that the servicing has to be done by a certified man. I am
genuinely interested in where you have read that because I have
not found it. Although I have a heat bank in one part of my
property, I am about to install (I think for good reasons) an
unvented tank in another part of it. I am an engineer and feel well
able to do any necessary annual servicing so would like to read any
regulations on it if you can direct me to them. Regards
Bruce


Hi

Google for Building Regulations Part G3


As far as I can make out, it just says installation by a "competant person".
No mention of servicing.

Tim

"Steve Lupton" backwards.moc.liamg@pulevets wrote in message
news:49A7A541.6020106@pulevets...
Hi

Google for Building Regulations Part G3

Steve

I had already searched G3. The words 'servicing' or 'annual' do not feature
in the document.

"BruceB" wrote in message
...

"Steve Lupton" backwards.moc.liamg@pulevets wrote in message
news:49A7A541.6020106@pulevets...
Hi

Google for Building Regulations Part G3

Steve

I had already searched G3. The words 'servicing' or 'annual' do not
feature in the document.

Makers stipulate servicing intervals.

"BruceB" wrote in message
...

"BruceB" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

You can DIY, well sort of, but with BCO control. The servicing has to
be by a certified man. A BCO does not sign off the servicing.

What is the regulation that says the servicing has to be done by a
certified man?
Regards
Bruce

DR DRIVEL
You asserted that the servicing has to be done by a certified man. I am
genuinely interested in where you have read that because I have not found
it. Although I have a heat bank in one part of my property, I am about to
install (I think for good reasons) an unvented tank in another part of it.
I am an engineer and feel well able to do any necessary annual servicing
so would like to read any regulations on it if you can direct me to them.
Regards
Bruce

Looking at the regs I have not found anything that says you need a
certificate. It does say to fit one, you need top be "competent". I would
assume any court would take that and determine that to service one you also
would need to be "competent" too. You posted this and I have amended it:

From the building regulations 2000 section 13:

(4) Where building work involves the provision of a hot water storage system
in relation to which paragraph G3 of Schedule 1 (hot water storage) imposes
a requirement, a building notice shall be accompanied by a statement which
specifies-
(a) the name, make, model and type of hot water storage system to be
installed;

(b) the name of the body, if any, which has approved or certified that the
system is capable of performing in a way which satisfies the requirements of
paragraph G3 of Schedule 1;

(c) the name of the body, if any, which has issued any current registered
operative identity card to the installer or proposed installer of the
system.

Pre-notification and the BCO can pass it.

The guidance section of the Approved Document G3 then says:

3.8 The unit or package should be installed by a "competent" person, i.e.
one holding a Registered Operative identity card for the installation of
unvented domestic hot water storage systems.

Note the key word is "should" is used, which is not "must". The i.e., means
"such as", not stating a "registered operative" is mandatory to carry out
the work. If the BCO is happy with what you have installed he can sign it
off.

There is nothing stating that to "service" a unvented cylinder a
predetermined qualification or registration is required, so an unregistered
operative can do it. All makers specify a service, so not doing one, or not
"proving" it is serviced, may invalidate your insurance. See your insurance
company. Many makers state the service has to be done by an approved
operative, whether this is accepted by an insurance company is another
matter, as there appears to be nothing in law stating that is so. If a
claim they may haggle that the i.e., means "mandatory". You saying you
serviced it and that you are "competent" and no written log may not be taken
as proof. Also, if there is injury and it goes to court, and no proof of
servicing and the makers instructions ignored, not serviced by an registered
operative, a judge may go against you. All very iffy.

Why are you fitting one? Are you a landlord? A vented heat bank thermal
store is by far better in every aspect and no hassle of servicing, insurance
companies, potential explosions, potential expensive safety device
replacements, etc, etc.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

Why are you fitting one? Are you a landlord? A vented heat bank thermal
store is by far better in every aspect and no hassle of servicing,
insurance companies, potential explosions, potential expensive safety
device replacements, etc, etc.


I agree that a vented heat bank has a lot going for it and as I said in
another post I have one already in the main existing part of the property
with oil CH. However the renovated Mill will provide another 6 bedrooms and
we are not on mains gas so it will be heated by a heat pump. Heat pumps are
not efficient if you try to output at anything like the temperatures
normally inside heatbanks. So I believe my best option is to store a lot of
lower temperature water in an unvented tank.
Regards
Bruce

Doctor Drivel wrote:


Looking at the regs I have not found anything that says you need a
certificate. It does say to fit one, you need top be "competent". I
would assume any court would take that and determine that to
service one you also would need to be "competent" too. You posted
this and I have amended it:
[snip]

3.8 The unit or package should be installed by a "competent" person,
i.e. one holding a Registered Operative identity card for the
installation of unvented domestic hot water storage systems.

Note the key word is "should" is used, which is not "must". The
i.e., means "such as", not stating a "registered operative" is
mandatory to carry out the work. If the BCO is happy with what you
have installed he can sign it off.

There is nothing stating that to "service" a unvented cylinder a
predetermined qualification or registration is required, so an
unregistered operative can do it.

And yet, just in case it slipped your mind you wrote:

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message

I wasn't really questioning the advisability of having an
inspection, I'm just curious as to who has to do this inspection and
whether it's actually enshrined in law. Is it actually specified
anywhere that it has to be a professional installer who does the
inspection or can it be any "competant person"?

It is enshrined in law. Only approved installers can install or
service these devices. No DIY whatsoever.

Brilliant volte-face! My breath is almost taken away by your effrontery.

Is there anything that you actually *know* about as opposed to be "full of
p*ss & wind" about?

Tim

"BruceB" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

Why are you fitting one? Are you a landlord? A vented heat bank thermal
store is by far better in every aspect and no hassle of servicing,
insurance companies, potential explosions, potential expensive safety
device replacements, etc, etc.


I agree that a vented heat bank has a lot going for it and as I said in
another post I have one already in the main existing part of the property
with oil CH. However the renovated Mill will provide another 6 bedrooms
and we are not on mains gas so it will be heated by a heat pump. Heat
pumps are not efficient if you try to output at anything like the
temperatures normally inside heatbanks. So I believe my best option is to
store a lot of lower temperature water in an unvented tank.
Regards
Bruce

Old wives tales. A heat bank (using a plate heat exchanger) can operate a
store temperature only 5C above DHW tap temperature. If you set the taps to
50C, you can have 55C store temp. You need to a have an oversized plate
heat exchanger, say 150kW, to extract as much heat as possible from the
stored water. This does not add much to the cost. Using an internal DHW
coil (thermal store) you need to have higher store temperatures. The larger
plate heat exchanger makes all the difference and transforms thermal stores
into a heat bank which is something special in DHW delivery.

I assume the heat pump is air sourced? The Mitsubishi is about the best.
Ground sourced heat pumps perform much better and generally will give a 60C
plus store temps no problem.

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...

Is there anything that you actually *know* about as opposed to be "full of
p*ss & wind" about?

**** off idiotic arsehole.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...

Is there anything that you actually *know* about as opposed to be "full of
p*ss & wind" about?

**** off idiotic arsehole.


Makes a change from "eff off you idiotic plantpot", I suppose.