We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement to
locate them 600mm or more from a sink are there any other regulatory
constraints we should be aware of? We will be getting electricians in
to do the work (Part P) but I would like to provide them with a
reasonably well thought through plan.

--
Robert

"robert" wrote in message
...

We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in relation
to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement to locate them
600mm or more from a sink are there any other regulatory constraints we
should be aware of? We will be getting electricians in to do the work
(Part P) but I would like to provide them with a reasonably well thought
through plan.

--
Robert

I wouldn't bother. They will ask you where you wnt the sockets and
then tell you if you can't.

"robert" wrote in message
...

We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in relation
to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement to locate them
600mm or more from a sink are there any other regulatory constraints we
should be aware of? We will be getting electricians in to do the work
(Part P) but I would like to provide them with a reasonably well thought
through plan.

--
Robert


I think there may be a minimum height above work surfaces.

--
Michael Chare

Michael Chare wrote:
"robert" wrote in message
...

We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement
to locate them 600mm or more from a sink are there any other
regulatory constraints we should be aware of? We will be getting
electricians in to do the work (Part P) but I would like to provide
them with a reasonably well thought through plan.

--
Robert


I think there may be a minimum height above work surfaces.

Not especially - other than the practical limit of allowing room for
cables etc. Part M of the building regs specifies switches and sockets
should be between 400 and 1.2m IIRC, but that does not really apply to
existing properties.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

robert wrote:
We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement
to locate them 600mm or more from a sink are there any other
regulatory constraints we should be aware of?

Is that 600mm from the bowl, or the edge of the draining board?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In message , The Medway
Handyman writes
robert wrote:
We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement
to locate them 600mm or more from a sink are there any other
regulatory constraints we should be aware of?

Is that 600mm from the bowl, or the edge of the draining board?

The reference I found just indicated 'from a sink' which does seem a bit
vague.

--
Robert

robert was thinking very hard :
In message , The Medway
Handyman writes
robert wrote:
We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement
to locate them 600mm or more from a sink are there any other
regulatory constraints we should be aware of?

Is that 600mm from the bowl, or the edge of the draining board?

The reference I found just indicated 'from a sink' which does seem a bit
vague.

It ties in with the short flexes supplied on modern kettles. The idea
is to prevent someone inadvertently sticking a kettle under the tap
whilst still plugged in and live.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:20:30 +0000, robert wrote:

We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement to
locate them 600mm or more from a sink

What requirement is that? Not one of the Requirements for Electrical
Installations aka BS7671 aka The Regs, AFAIK. (If it is can you point me
at the section?)


I'd put outlets every 300-400mm or so above worktops (you wouldn't believe
how many you actually need, and they won't all be where you want them) and
about 300 above the worktops so you can still get at them with appliances
on the surfaces.


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

I am neither for nor against apathy

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
k...
robert was thinking very hard :
In message , The Medway
Handyman writes
robert wrote:
We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement
to locate them 600mm or more from a sink are there any other
regulatory constraints we should be aware of?

Is that 600mm from the bowl, or the edge of the draining board?

The reference I found just indicated 'from a sink' which does seem a bit
vague.

It ties in with the short flexes supplied on modern kettles. The idea is
to prevent someone inadvertently sticking a kettle under the tap whilst
still plugged in and live.

I had one with a long flex and was lazy, and almost dropped it into a bowl
of water.

I made sure never to do it again.

tim

In message , YAPH
writes
On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:20:30 +0000, robert wrote:

We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement to
locate them 600mm or more from a sink

What requirement is that? Not one of the Requirements for Electrical
Installations aka BS7671 aka The Regs, AFAIK. (If it is can you point me
at the section?)

I did a search on kitchen and sockets and the sink/socket stuff was in
one of several pages of text.

I'd put outlets every 300-400mm or so above worktops (you wouldn't believe
how many you actually need, and they won't all be where you want them) and
about 300 above the worktops so you can still get at them with appliances
on the surfaces.

We have currently provided for 9 (hopefully) well placed sockets to
serve the worktops in addition to the appliance outlets and we have
identified possible uses for 5 of them so far. We have thought of
incorporating a 'pop up' 3 gang unit from Wickes in the prep area
worktop to cover future needs.

--
Robert

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 20:50:13 +0000, robert wrote:

In message , YAPH
writes

What requirement is that? Not one of the Requirements for Electrical
Installations aka BS7671 aka The Regs, AFAIK. (If it is can you point me
at the section?)

I did a search on kitchen and sockets and the sink/socket stuff was in
one of several pages of text.

Ah, it was from that authoritative source: the interwebs then? ;-)



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus
and Pop Psychologists are from Uranus

robert wrote:
In message , YAPH
writes
On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:20:30 +0000, robert wrote:

We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement to
locate them 600mm or more from a sink

What requirement is that? Not one of the Requirements for Electrical
Installations aka BS7671 aka The Regs, AFAIK. (If it is can you point me
at the section?)

I did a search on kitchen and sockets and the sink/socket stuff was in
one of several pages of text.

There are guidelines published in various places, however it does not
appear as a regulators requirement in BS7671. There is the general
requirement that all accessories used are appropriate for the chosen
location however, so a conventional socket close to where it may be
splashed could fail to meet that requirement.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Huge wrote:
On 2009-02-15, YAPH wrote:

I'd put outlets every 300-400mm or so above worktops (you wouldn't believe
how many you actually need, and they won't all be where you want them) and
about 300 above the worktops

I know you need a lot of sockets in a kitchen, but isn't 300 rather excessive?

One under each halogen downlighter? Sounds about right.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Feb 14, 7:20*pm, robert wrote:
We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. *We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. *Other than a requirement to
locate them 600mm or more from a sink are there any other regulatory
constraints we should be aware of? *

I thought the prohibited area was within 300mm of the edge of the
sink, draining board or cooker. but maybe the new regs have increased
that. In my kitchen I don't think there is anywhere that is less than
600mm from a cooker or sink!


Robert

"robert" wrote in message
...

We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in relation
to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement to locate them
600mm or more from a sink are there any other regulatory constraints we
should be aware of? We will be getting electricians in to do the work
(Part P) but I would like to provide them with a reasonably well thought
through plan.

--


If you know what tiles you are having then you can take this into account
when determing the height of the sockets above the work tops.


mark

On Feb 16, 9:16*am, RobertL wrote:
On Feb 14, 7:20*pm, robert wrote:

We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. *We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. *Other than a requirement to
locate them 600mm or more from a sink are there any other regulatory
constraints we should be aware of? *

I thought the prohibited area was within 300mm of the edge of the
sink, draining board or cooker. *but maybe the new regs have increased
that. *In my kitchen I don't think there is anywhere that is less than
600mm from a cooker or sink!

There is no prohibited area for sockets (see John Rumm's post).

People (including builders and electricians) are often confused by the
regulations about zones in bathrooms - but the rules for kitchens are
different.

I agree about the need for LOTS of sockets. We currently have:
- toaster
- coffee maker
- coffee grinder
- radio
- kettle
- under-shelf lighting
- cooker
- breadmaker
- dishwasher
- fridge
and only five double sockets.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
robert wrote:
In message , YAPH
writes
On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:20:30 +0000, robert wrote:

We are finalising the plan for our kitchen refurb and looking at the
positions of 13A sockets. We know roughly where we want them in
relation to preparation and cooking areas. Other than a requirement to
locate them 600mm or more from a sink

What requirement is that? Not one of the Requirements for Electrical
Installations aka BS7671 aka The Regs, AFAIK. (If it is can you point me
at the section?)

I did a search on kitchen and sockets and the sink/socket stuff was in
one of several pages of text.

There are guidelines published in various places, however it does not
appear as a regulators requirement in BS7671. There is the general
requirement that all accessories used are appropriate for the chosen
location however, so a conventional socket close to where it may be
splashed could fail to meet that requirement.


--
Cheers,

John.

ISTR that the guidelines were 300mm from the edge of a sink. There was no
set regulation though.

Adam

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:51:42 +0000, Huge wrote:

I know you need a lot of sockets in a kitchen, but isn't 300 rather
excessive?

No. :-)

--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

I am neither for nor against apathy

robert wrote:

incorporating a 'pop up' 3 gang unit from Wickes in the prep area
worktop to cover future needs.

I don't know which specific unit you're talking about, but I'd be
dubious about something designed to pop up through the worktop. The
crack round the top sounds like a magnet for crumbs and gunge, not to
mention the sump it drops into filling up with a fine collection of its own.

I assume they've tried to design to avoid this, but I question how
successful they could be compared to unbroken laminate.

Pete

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:37:53 -0800 (PST), a certain chimpanzee, Martin
Bonner randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

There is no prohibited area for sockets (see John Rumm's post).

People (including builders and electricians) are often confused by the
regulations about zones in bathrooms - but the rules for kitchens are
different.

You're not kidding! The electrician doing up my mum's kitchen (a
NICEIC bod, mind!) swore blind that, "you can't have pendant lights in
a kitchen".
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed"?

John Rumm wrote:

I think there may be a minimum height above work surfaces.

Not especially - other than the practical limit of allowing room for
cables etc.

But there is a specific recommendation of 150 mm in the 'official'
guidance - i.e. the Electrician's Guide to the Building Regs (EGBR) or
the OSG, or both.

Here's a summary of the EGBR guidance relating to kitchens:

(i) accessories to be on building fabric, not on kitchen furniture;

(ii) control switches to be mounted to avoid need to reach over hobs;

(iii) sockets to be a minimum of 450 mm above floor;

(iv) accessories a min. of 300 mm from edge of sink or draining board;

(v) sockets for washing m/c's or dishwashers etc. to be positioned
so as not to be dripped or splashed on if plumbing leaks;

(vi) sockets to be min. 150 mm above worktop (to centre-line of skt);

(vii) sockets supplying under-worktop appliances to be accessible when
appliance pulled out;

(viii) built-in appliances to be connected to socket or FCU that is
readily accessible when appliance is in normal use, OR controlled
by readily accessible DP switch or switched FCU;

(ix) light switches to be readily accessible;

(x) manufacturer's instructions should be followed.

--
Andy

On Feb 17, 8:59*pm, Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:37:53 -0800 (PST), a certain chimpanzee, Martin
Bonner randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

There is no prohibited area for sockets (see John Rumm's post).

People (including builders and electricians) are often confused by the
regulations about zones in bathrooms - but the rules for kitchens are
different.


In the IEE "electricians guide to the building regs in eth section
5.2.2 on kitchens is says: "general guidance can be provided as
follows"... "no sockets within 300mm of edge of sink" .

that does not mean it's a compulsory, but as it's in the IEE guide I
think it's wise to follow it.

Robert

On 17 Feb, 20:59, Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost wrote:

You're not kidding! The electrician doing up my mum's kitchen (a
NICEIC bod, mind!) swore blind that, "you can't have pendant lights in
a kitchen".

I've heard that too, and from another NICEIC. Where are they getting
it from?

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 03:01:45 -0800, Andy Dingley wrote:

On 17 Feb, 20:59, Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost wrote:

You're not kidding! The electrician doing up my mum's kitchen (a NICEIC
bod, mind!) swore blind that, "you can't have pendant lights in a
kitchen".

I've heard that too, and from another NICEIC. Where are they getting it
from?

There is a tendency to simply and gold-plate the regs.
I've been told that a boiler couldn't have a non-RCD supply as "It's
water and electricty"
A customer was told you you can't have a open flue gas fire in a bedroom
(wrong you can provided it's 14kW, and has an "oxy-pilot").


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

In message , Andy Wade
writes
John Rumm wrote:

I think there may be a minimum height above work surfaces.
Not especially - other than the practical limit of allowing room for
cables etc.

But there is a specific recommendation of 150 mm in the 'official'
guidance - i.e. the Electrician's Guide to the Building Regs (EGBR) or
the OSG, or both.

Here's a summary of the EGBR guidance relating to kitchens:

(i) accessories to be on building fabric, not on kitchen furniture;

(ii) control switches to be mounted to avoid need to reach over hobs;

(iii) sockets to be a minimum of 450 mm above floor;

(iv) accessories a min. of 300 mm from edge of sink or draining board;

(v) sockets for washing m/c's or dishwashers etc. to be positioned
so as not to be dripped or splashed on if plumbing leaks;

(vi) sockets to be min. 150 mm above worktop (to centre-line of skt);

(vii) sockets supplying under-worktop appliances to be accessible when
appliance pulled out;

(viii) built-in appliances to be connected to socket or FCU that is
readily accessible when appliance is in normal use, OR controlled
by readily accessible DP switch or switched FCU;

(ix) light switches to be readily accessible;

(x) manufacturer's instructions should be followed.


Many thanks for this - just what I was looking for.

--
Robert

Andy Wade wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

I think there may be a minimum height above work surfaces.

Not especially - other than the practical limit of allowing room for
cables etc.

But there is a specific recommendation of 150 mm in the 'official'
guidance - i.e. the Electrician's Guide to the Building Regs (EGBR) or
the OSG, or both.

Here's a summary of the EGBR guidance relating to kitchens:

(i) accessories to be on building fabric, not on kitchen furniture;


I reckon that makes 80% of the sockets for washing machines that I see
against the guidance.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 23:25:56 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Here's a summary of the EGBR guidance relating to kitchens:

(i) accessories to be on building fabric, not on kitchen furniture;


I reckon that makes 80% of the sockets for washing machines that I see
against the guidance.

Heh! I shall have to tell my stickler-for-the-regs sparkie mate that. He
(like me) likes to put sockets for the dishwasher & washing machine on the
inside walls of the sink unit rather than on the building wall either at
the back of the machine bay or tucked up under the sink.

Behind the machine it's hard to plug the machine in & out & ensure the
machine's cable doesn't get snagged by pipes &c, and if there is a leak of
the water-spraying everywhere type it could go over the plug & socket
without being noticed. On the wall at the back of the sink unit it's hard
to get to and likely to get wet. On the inside wall of the sink unit, high
up and near the front, it's accessible and out of harm's way. And the sink
unit isn't likely to be moved by a non-competent/skilled/instructed person
any more than any other accessory if the kitchen's being refitted.

But de Law is de Law. I suppose the pukka way would be to fit a commando
socket to the building fabric and make the sink unit with its socket(s) a
plug-in.


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 03:01:45 -0800 (PST), a certain chimpanzee, Andy
Dingley randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

On 17 Feb, 20:59, Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost wrote:

You're not kidding! The electrician doing up my mum's kitchen (a
NICEIC bod, mind!) swore blind that, "you can't have pendant lights in
a kitchen".

I've heard that too, and from another NICEIC. Where are they getting
it from?

After he'd checked, it apparently came from the specification for
wiring in Liverpool council houses.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed"?