Recently moved house, and there's not really enough sockets in the kitchen,
along the one wall we have a single two way outlet and a single two-way on
the other wall - I am toying with the idea of converting these into 4 ways
(they will only power one juice-hungry device each, a microwave on one and a
kettle on the other and the other 3 sockets for trivial stuff like a TV,
radio, cordless phone, etc.) Now, I have seen these 2 way to 4 way
converters that take the place of your existing two way outlet, but how
exactly do these work? Surely they must be deeper to accomodate the length
of the earth pin? Do they really work? If so, it's gonna be a piece of
cake to do this

All help gratefully received, it's going to be next week before I do this
anyhow as I got to finish painting the living room first

Hellraiser................

Hellraiser wrote:
Recently moved house, and there's not really enough sockets in the
kitchen, along the one wall we have a single two way outlet and a
single two-way on the other wall - I am toying with the idea of
converting these into 4 ways

Dead easy to fit http://www.allaboutelectrics.co.uk/i...?doc=11&cid=18



--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 20:25:09 -0000, "Hellraiser"
wrote:

Recently moved house, and there's not really enough sockets in the kitchen,
along the one wall we have a single two way outlet and a single two-way on
the other wall - I am toying with the idea of converting these into 4 ways
(they will only power one juice-hungry device each, a microwave on one and a
kettle on the other and the other 3 sockets for trivial stuff like a TV,
radio, cordless phone, etc.) Now, I have seen these 2 way to 4 way
converters that take the place of your existing two way outlet, but how
exactly do these work? Surely they must be deeper to accomodate the length
of the earth pin? Do they really work? If so, it's gonna be a piece of
cake to do this

All help gratefully received, it's going to be next week before I do this
anyhow as I got to finish painting the living room first

Hellraiser................

You need the wall patress to be set in stone or the constant plugging
and unplugging on the end two sockets will work the patress out of the
wall. The triple ones are better as there is less leverage on the wall
support.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
Hellraiser wrote:
Recently moved house, and there's not really enough sockets in the
kitchen, along the one wall we have a single two way outlet and a
single two-way on the other wall - I am toying with the idea of
converting these into 4 ways

Dead easy to fit
http://www.allaboutelectrics.co.uk/i...?doc=11&cid=18

Excellent, cheers for that will order them straight away Will leave
things plugged in permanently anyway, so the inherent problem with 4-ways
should hopefully not be a problem for me!

Hellraiser..............

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 20:25:09 -0000, "Hellraiser"
wrote:

Recently moved house, and there's not really enough sockets in the kitchen,
along the one wall we have a single two way outlet and a single two-way on
the other wall - I am toying with the idea of converting these into 4 ways
(they will only power one juice-hungry device each, a microwave on one and a
kettle on the other and the other 3 sockets for trivial stuff like a TV,
radio, cordless phone, etc.)

A TV in the kitchen? I thought the very idea of a kitchen was to "do
your own thing".

Actually I really do need more socket outlets in my kitchen/dining
room. At present I have a double outlet in a "sensiblish" place, a
single outlet more or less above the sink, a single outlet as part of
the cooker control unit, and a double outlet fairly near the dining
table.

I'm planning a complete revamp of the kitchen, so I'd really need a
new separate ring main, which means a new CU, which means upgraded
bonding of gas/water intakes...

--
Frank Erskine

Hellraiser wrote:

radio, cordless phone, etc.) Now, I have seen these 2 way to 4 way
converters that take the place of your existing two way outlet, but how
exactly do these work? Surely they must be deeper to accomodate the length
of the earth pin? Do they really work? If so, it's gonna be a piece of
cake to do this

They are deeper - the facia bit is deep enough to accomodate the earth
pin length (which is not as deep as a conventional surface pattress).

The other limitation is that they are fused at 13A, and this covers all
the sockets. So if you wanted two highish load devices you may have a
problem.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:59:09 UTC, Frank Erskine
wrote:

A TV in the kitchen? I thought the very idea of a kitchen was to "do
your own thing".

Didn't stop me putting in an ethernet socket...

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 03:30:48 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

Hellraiser wrote:

radio, cordless phone, etc.) Now, I have seen these 2 way to 4 way
converters that take the place of your existing two way outlet, but how
exactly do these work? Surely they must be deeper to accomodate the length
of the earth pin? Do they really work? If so, it's gonna be a piece of
cake to do this

They are deeper - the facia bit is deep enough to accomodate the earth
pin length (which is not as deep as a conventional surface pattress).

The other limitation is that they are fused at 13A, and this covers all
the sockets. So if you wanted two highish load devices you may have a
problem.

Conversely, isn't this the shortcoming with British electrics? We have a
system that's based on the assumption that every socket will service a
3-bar electric fire, whereas most appliances draw much, much less. In fact,
probably 95% of things plugged in here use, individually, four-fifths of
five-eighths of sod all.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 06:46:31 +0000 someone who may be nog
wrote this:-

Conversely, isn't this the shortcoming with British electrics? We have a
system that's based on the assumption that every socket will service a
3-bar electric fire, whereas most appliances draw much, much less.

No, that is the advantage. A system where one can plug a reasonably
high current appliance into any socket and it will just work. Far
better then the alternatives.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

nog wrote:

Conversely, isn't this the shortcoming with British electrics? We have a
system that's based on the assumption that every socket will service a
3-bar electric fire,

Not really. It's common these days to have 30 to 40 double
socket-outlets in a house. Try plugging a 3 kW fire into each outlet
and see what happens - 80 * 13 A = 1,040 A...

--
Andy

On 30 Jan 2007 13:20:35 GMT, Huge wrote:

|On 2007-01-30, Andy Wade wrote:
| nog wrote:
|
| Conversely, isn't this the shortcoming with British electrics? We have a
| system that's based on the assumption that every socket will service a
| 3-bar electric fire,
|
| Not really. It's common these days to have 30 to 40 double
| socket-outlets in a house.
|
|I have more than that in my study ...

Why bother? A few 13 amp sockets with 4/6/12 way extensions, daisy chained
if necessary, fastened to the wall will provide everything you need. In
the office I have one 13 amp socket - 4 way - 4 way - 12 way, perfectly
safely because the actual current used is only a few amps.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

Dave Fawthrop wrote:

the office I have one 13 amp socket - 4 way - 4 way - 12 way, perfectly
safely because the actual current used is only a few amps.

and what is the earth loop impedance (and hence disconnect time in the
event of a fault) at the end of that lot? ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:30:17 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

|Dave Fawthrop wrote:
|
| the office I have one 13 amp socket - 4 way - 4 way - 12 way, perfectly
| safely because the actual current used is only a few amps.
|
|and what is the earth loop impedance (and hence disconnect time in the
|event of a fault) at the end of that lot? ;-)

It has no less than 3 fuses in the extensions which I try to keep at a
reasonable value, so the wire fuses of the ring main are unlikely to blow.
Come to think of it I can not remember replacing those ever in 40 years.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

Dave Fawthrop wrote:

|and what is the earth loop impedance (and hence disconnect time in the
|event of a fault) at the end of that lot? ;-)

It has no less than 3 fuses in the extensions which I try to keep at a
reasonable value, so the wire fuses of the ring main are unlikely to blow.
Come to think of it I can not remember replacing those ever in 40 years.

I think you are missing my point. I was not discussing overload
conditions, but fault conditions. Under fault conditions (e.g. a phase
to earth short circuit) you *want* a massive fault current to flow so
that the circuit protective device operates quickly, thus protecting you
from indirect contact to the mains (via a live bit of casework perhaps).

One of the hidden dangers of daisy chaining extension leads is that the
total round trip resistance from phase to earth can increase to an
unacceptable level. This reduces the fault current that can flow, which
in turn increases the time taken for the protective device to open. Thus
exposing you to greater risk.

Obviously the risk in this circumstance is minimised if the circuit is
also protected by a RCD, however it is particularly worth thinking about
if you have your IT kit supported via a UPS - since this can render your
RCD protection irrelevant!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Huge wrote:

Which is what I actually have - 3 "proper" mains sockets, 3 x 12 way
Olson strips, plus 3 x 4 way strips on the UPS and 1 x 6 way under
my desk, for a total of 54 sockets.

I was about to say "is that all", but then I counted mine, and only came
to 50... so I will not bother mentioning it! ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:42:17 UTC, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:30:17 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

|Dave Fawthrop wrote:
|
| the office I have one 13 amp socket - 4 way - 4 way - 12 way, perfectly
| safely because the actual current used is only a few amps.
|
|and what is the earth loop impedance (and hence disconnect time in the
|event of a fault) at the end of that lot? ;-)

It has no less than 3 fuses in the extensions which I try to keep at a
reasonable value, so the wire fuses of the ring main are unlikely to blow.
Come to think of it I can not remember replacing those ever in 40 years.

Fair enough. The main fuse won't blow fast, so it's irrelevant that the
extension fuses won't blow fast, as you'd be dead anyway..
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 30 Jan 2007 16:59:39 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

|On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:42:17 UTC, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:
|
| On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:30:17 +0000, John Rumm
| wrote:
|
| |Dave Fawthrop wrote:
| |
| | the office I have one 13 amp socket - 4 way - 4 way - 12 way, perfectly
| | safely because the actual current used is only a few amps.
| |
| |and what is the earth loop impedance (and hence disconnect time in the
| |event of a fault) at the end of that lot? ;-)
|
| It has no less than 3 fuses in the extensions which I try to keep at a
| reasonable value, so the wire fuses of the ring main are unlikely to blow.
| Come to think of it I can not remember replacing those ever in 40 years.
|
|Fair enough. The main fuse won't blow fast, so it's irrelevant that the
|extension fuses won't blow fast, as you'd be dead anyway..

Fuses do *not* protect against electrocution, never did.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:16:19 UTC, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

On 30 Jan 2007 16:59:39 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

|On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:42:17 UTC, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:
|
| On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:30:17 +0000, John Rumm
| wrote:
|
| |Dave Fawthrop wrote:
| |
| | the office I have one 13 amp socket - 4 way - 4 way - 12 way, perfectly
| | safely because the actual current used is only a few amps.
| |
| |and what is the earth loop impedance (and hence disconnect time in the
| |event of a fault) at the end of that lot? ;-)
|
| It has no less than 3 fuses in the extensions which I try to keep at a
| reasonable value, so the wire fuses of the ring main are unlikely to blow.
| Come to think of it I can not remember replacing those ever in 40 years.
|
|Fair enough. The main fuse won't blow fast, so it's irrelevant that the
|extension fuses won't blow fast, as you'd be dead anyway..

Fuses do *not* protect against electrocution, never did.

Exactly my point - so the earth loop impedance is relevant, and your
mention of fuses rather less so.
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:16:19 +0000 someone who may be Dave Fawthrop
wrote this:-

Fuses do *not* protect against electrocution, never did.

Incorrect. One of the functions of fuses is to protect against
electrocution caused by indirect contact. They are, however,
unlikely to protect against electrocution caused by direct contact.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:11:57 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:16:19 +0000 someone who may be Dave Fawthrop
wrote this:-

Fuses do *not* protect against electrocution, never did.

Incorrect. One of the functions of fuses is to protect against
electrocution caused by indirect contact.

What's that ?

They are, however,
unlikely to protect against electrocution caused by direct contact.

DG

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:27:00 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

|Huge wrote:
|
| Which is what I actually have - 3 "proper" mains sockets, 3 x 12 way
| Olson strips, plus 3 x 4 way strips on the UPS and 1 x 6 way under
| my desk, for a total of 54 sockets.
|
|I was about to say "is that all", but then I counted mine, and only came
|to 50... so I will not bother mentioning it! ;-)

Just think of 54 ordinary 13 amp sockets 54 * 60mm = 3.25 *meters*, there
is no way anyone in their right mind would fit a 3 meter line of 13 amp
sockets in *any* room.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:53:11 +0000 someone who may be Derek Geldard
wrote this:-

Incorrect. One of the functions of fuses is to protect against
electrocution caused by indirect contact.

What's that ?

Indirect contact is where a conductive part which is not normally
energised becomes energised because of a fault. If the conductive
part is the metal casing of something then this is not good for
health. However, if the conductive part is equipotentialy bonded and
automatic disconnection of the supply by a fuse is in use then the
dangers to health are reduced. Anyone touching the conductive part
when the fault happens will still get a shock, but it will usually
not be fatal. Anyone not touching the conductive part when the fault
happens but who touches it later will not get a shock, because the
supply will have been disconnected.

Direct contact is contact with a conductive part that is normally
energised, in other words part of the electrical system. Although
normally a wire, in some circumstances this can be something else,
like a busbar or conductor rail.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Dave Fawthrop wrote:

Just think of 54 ordinary 13 amp sockets 54 * 60mm = 3.25 *meters*, there
is no way anyone in their right mind would fit a 3 meter line of 13 amp
sockets in *any* room.

Not been in many electronics or avionics labs then I guess...

Mine are not all in a line needless to say. There are five doubles on
the wall - part of the house wiring, the rest are mostly spread around
the 10 outputs from my two 1kVA UPSs. (plus one or two 4 way extensions
directly from the mains for appropriate loads). Typically they are
neatest when fixed to an equipment shelf or in a rack.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30 Jan 2007 19:29:53 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

|On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:16:19 UTC, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:
|
| On 30 Jan 2007 16:59:39 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:
|
| |On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:42:17 UTC, Dave Fawthrop
| wrote:
| |
| | On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:30:17 +0000, John Rumm
| | wrote:
| |
| | |Dave Fawthrop wrote:
| | |
| | | the office I have one 13 amp socket - 4 way - 4 way - 12 way, perfectly
| | | safely because the actual current used is only a few amps.
| | |
| | |and what is the earth loop impedance (and hence disconnect time in the
| | |event of a fault) at the end of that lot? ;-)
| |
| | It has no less than 3 fuses in the extensions which I try to keep at a
| | reasonable value, so the wire fuses of the ring main are unlikely to blow.
| | Come to think of it I can not remember replacing those ever in 40 years.
| |
| |Fair enough. The main fuse won't blow fast, so it's irrelevant that the
| |extension fuses won't blow fast, as you'd be dead anyway..
|
| Fuses do *not* protect against electrocution, never did.
|
|Exactly my point - so the earth loop impedance is relevant, and your
|mention of fuses rather less so.

10-30ma say 100ma to be certain, kills fairly reliably. Do you use a 100ma
fuse on mains?

Fuses only protect wiring and appliances.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:06:27 UTC, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

On 30 Jan 2007 19:29:53 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

|On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:16:19 UTC, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:
|
| On 30 Jan 2007 16:59:39 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:
|
| |On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:42:17 UTC, Dave Fawthrop
| wrote:
| |
| | On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:30:17 +0000, John Rumm
| | wrote:
| |
| | |Dave Fawthrop wrote:
| | |
| | | the office I have one 13 amp socket - 4 way - 4 way - 12 way, perfectly
| | | safely because the actual current used is only a few amps.
| | |
| | |and what is the earth loop impedance (and hence disconnect time in the
| | |event of a fault) at the end of that lot? ;-)
| |
| | It has no less than 3 fuses in the extensions which I try to keep at a
| | reasonable value, so the wire fuses of the ring main are unlikely to blow.
| | Come to think of it I can not remember replacing those ever in 40 years.
| |
| |Fair enough. The main fuse won't blow fast, so it's irrelevant that the
| |extension fuses won't blow fast, as you'd be dead anyway..
|
| Fuses do *not* protect against electrocution, never did.
|
|Exactly my point - so the earth loop impedance is relevant, and your
|mention of fuses rather less so.

10-30ma say 100ma to be certain, kills fairly reliably. Do you use a 100ma
fuse on mains?

Fuses only protect wiring and appliances.

That's what I was saying. If you only have fuses, it doesn't matter
about the earth loop impedance, as you're not protected and will be dead
anyway.
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

Dave Fawthrop wrote:

Fuses do *not* protect against electrocution, never did.

of course they do!

They won't help in the case of direct contact, however they will in the
case of indirect contact - primarily by ensuring that the power is
disconnected before you get a chance to come into contact with the live
surface, and/or by limiting the duration of contact to under 0.4 secs
for portable appliances.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:06:27 +0000 someone who may be Dave Fawthrop
wrote this:-

Fuses only protect wiring and appliances.

Incorrect. Read up the basics of earthed equipotential bonding and
automatic disconnection of supply.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:58:05 +0000, Andy Wade wrote:

nog wrote:

Conversely, isn't this the shortcoming with British electrics? We have a
system that's based on the assumption that every socket will service a
3-bar electric fire,

Not really. It's common these days to have 30 to 40 double
socket-outlets in a house. Try plugging a 3 kW fire into each outlet
and see what happens - 80 * 13 A = 1,040 A...

sigh
No doubt I should have said "every socket is capable of ...", which is what
I really meant.