I'm taking a year off from renovations during 2009, but next spring I'm
planning to renovate the main bathroom on my bungalow here in sunny
Cumbria. As you probably know it gets quite cold here and I
continually plot ideas to save heating oil - I used 1000l since the
beginning of November.

The boiler is a new Mistral Condensing 50-90 unit, and I have an OSO
pressurised 210l water tank (thanks Dr.D, I know about thermal stores,
and in 20 years that'll be the way I'll go). I'll lay in lots of wall
insulation, of course, and if I can, the heating will go underfloor as
I did in the Sitting Room, with insulation under (I used 100mm in the
Sitting Room). The loft is 250mm insulated.

So it seems to me that the biggest waste of heat left in the bathroom
will be the grey-water from SWMBO's daily baths - she does not do
showers. I'm planning on a smaller bath (sssh!) But is there a simple
way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for heating (aside from
letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling the plug)?

R.

Richard A Downing wrote:

So it seems to me that the biggest waste of heat left in the bathroom
will be the grey-water from SWMBO's daily baths - she does not do
showers. I'm planning on a smaller bath (sssh!) But is there a simple
way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for heating (aside from
letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling the plug)?

Call me a killjoy but I think that amount of heat economically recoverable
this way in a domestic setting is minimal. You might come across the odd
enthusiast but I think you'll find most folk here will say the same.

Tim

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:57:46 +0000, Richard A Downing wrote:

As you probably know it gets quite cold here and I continually plot
ideas to save heating oil - I used 1000l since the beginning of
November.

Only 1000? We've got through nearly 2000 since the end of November. Will
be due to order another 2000 in about 10 days time...

But is there a simple way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for
heating (aside from letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling
the plug)?

Even if you can effectively recover it what are you going to do with such
"low grade" heat? Any medium you recover the heat into is only going to be
around the upper 30's C at best. Too cool even for under floor heating.

How much actual energy is there in a bath full of water? Is it worth
recovering given that it is such low grade?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:41:12 +0000 (GMT)
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:57:46 +0000, Richard A Downing wrote:

As you probably know it gets quite cold here and I continually plot
ideas to save heating oil - I used 1000l since the beginning of
November.

Only 1000? We've got through nearly 2000 since the end of November. Will
be due to order another 2000 in about 10 days time...

Two active young-for-our-age oldies. No kids. Few visitors. Lots of
insulation. 20 degree thermo setting. South-facing big K-glass/Argon
windows.

But is there a simple way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for
heating (aside from letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling
the plug)?

Even if you can effectively recover it what are you going to do with such
"low grade" heat? Any medium you recover the heat into is only going to be
around the upper 30's C at best. Too cool even for under floor heating.

How much actual energy is there in a bath full of water? Is it worth
recovering given that it is such low grade?


OK, I'm convinced. Scrap that idea....

Thanks.

R.

In article et,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:57:46 +0000, Richard A Downing wrote:

As you probably know it gets quite cold here and I continually plot
ideas to save heating oil - I used 1000l since the beginning of
November.

Only 1000? We've got through nearly 2000 since the end of November. Will
be due to order another 2000 in about 10 days time...

But is there a simple way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for
heating (aside from letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling
the plug)?

Even if you can effectively recover it what are you going to do with such
"low grade" heat? Any medium you recover the heat into is only going to be
around the upper 30's C at best. Too cool even for under floor heating.

How much actual energy is there in a bath full of water? Is it worth
recovering given that it is such low grade?

You could just leave it to cool down before pulling the plug.
That way, the heat has passed into the house. The moisture it
generates by evaporation might not be welcome though. Could
cover the top to prevent evaporation, but then it will take
much longer to cool.

If you're into DIY refrigeration, another option would be to
pump the heat from the bath back into the hot water cylinder.
You could affix evaporater pipework to the back of a (metal)
bath, and have a condenser coil in the bottom of your hot water
cylinder. Then you cool or even chill the bath water, dumping
the heat back into the hot water cylinder. Almost certainly
not worth it, but might be good fun. ;-)

I've thought about recovering the heat from a shower. That's
easier because you can just construct a reverse flow heat
exchanger to transfer the waste heat to the hot water cylinder
inlet flow, as they'd both be flowing at the same time.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article , Richard A
Downing writes

But is there a simple
way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for heating (aside from
letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling the plug)?

I've often wondered if this could be used to warm up the cold feed to a
mixer shower (or even an elcetric one). It'd need to be a thermostatic
mixer, however.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png

"Richard A Downing" wrote


So it seems to me that the biggest waste of heat left in the bathroom
will be the grey-water from SWMBO's daily baths - she does not do
showers. I'm planning on a smaller bath (sssh!) But is there a simple
way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for heating (aside from
letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling the plug)?


Others seem to dismiss the heat recovery option.
It may be more energy/cost efficient to look at filtering and re-using the
grey water for toilet flushing/garden watering.
Leave you to do the maths though

Phil

TheScullster wrote:
"Richard A Downing" wrote

So it seems to me that the biggest waste of heat left in the bathroom
will be the grey-water from SWMBO's daily baths - she does not do
showers. I'm planning on a smaller bath (sssh!) But is there a simple
way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for heating (aside from
letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling the plug)?


Others seem to dismiss the heat recovery option.
It may be more energy/cost efficient to look at filtering and re-using the
grey water for toilet flushing/garden watering.
Leave you to do the maths though

Phil

By doing that you would recover the heat, as the warm water would sit
around long enough to go cold. That would be useful 9 months of the
year.

Evaporation from leaving bathwater in situ might be countered with a
few drops of oil. What effect doing this would have on bath cleaning I
dont know.


NT

Mike Tomlinson coughed up some electrons that declared:

In article , Richard A
Downing writes

But is there a simple
way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for heating (aside from
letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling the plug)?

I've often wondered if this could be used to warm up the cold feed to a
mixer shower (or even an elcetric one). It'd need to be a thermostatic
mixer, however.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Heat_Exchanger

On Feb 12, 8:02*am, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Richard A
Downing writes

But is there a simple
way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for heating (aside from
letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling the plug)?

I've often wondered if this could be used to warm up the cold feed to a
mixer shower (or even an elcetric one). *It'd need to be a thermostatic
mixer, however.


So have I, and i think it could. A counterflow heat exchanger might
recover 80% of the heat. Yo ushoudl then be able to have a high flow
rate shower running on a small electric shower heater.

Robert

In article ,
"TheScullster" writes:

"Richard A Downing" wrote


So it seems to me that the biggest waste of heat left in the bathroom
will be the grey-water from SWMBO's daily baths - she does not do
showers. I'm planning on a smaller bath (sssh!) But is there a simple
way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for heating (aside from
letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling the plug)?


Others seem to dismiss the heat recovery option.
It may be more energy/cost efficient to look at filtering and re-using the
grey water for toilet flushing/garden watering.
Leave you to do the maths though

That's what you call a hot flush...

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 12 Feb, 13:04, RobertL wrote:

A counterflow heat exchanger might recover 80% of the heat. *

Does "counterflow" have any real meaning when we're talking about such
a small flow, that's so intermittent?

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 12 Feb, 13:04, RobertL wrote:

A counterflow heat exchanger might recover 80% of the heat. *

Does "counterflow" have any real meaning when we're talking about such
a small flow, that's so intermittent?

You wont get good recovery if its not counterflow.


NT

On 12 Feb, 08:52, wrote:

Evaporation from leaving bathwater in situ might be countered with a
few drops of oil. What effect doing this would have on bath cleaning I
dont know.

What a super idea.

Just let me think; why do lubricated air compressors (as against oil-
free compressors) often come complete with oleophilic and activated
charcoal filters for connection to the receiver's condensate drain?

Ah yes; that would be because it is very environmentally unfriendly
and very illegal to put oil into the drainage system.

Is there any area of technology in which you don't hold your expertise
in high regard and don't feel a compulsive need to propagate your half-
baked ideas across the internet?

Onetap wrote:
On 12 Feb, 08:52, wrote:

Evaporation from leaving bathwater in situ might be countered with a
few drops of oil. What effect doing this would have on bath cleaning I
dont know.

What a super idea.

Just let me think; why do lubricated air compressors (as against oil-
free compressors) often come complete with oleophilic and activated
charcoal filters for connection to the receiver's condensate drain?

Ah yes; that would be because it is very environmentally unfriendly
and very illegal to put oil into the drainage system.

Is there any area of technology in which you don't hold your expertise
in high regard and don't feel a compulsive need to propagate your half-
baked ideas across the internet?


Who is going to be the first to tell Johnson & Johnson?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In article , Tim S
writes

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Heat_Exchanger

Thanks :-)

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png

Rod wrote:
Onetap wrote:
On 12 Feb, 08:52, wrote:

Evaporation from leaving bathwater in situ might be countered with a
few drops of oil. What effect doing this would have on bath cleaning I
dont know.

What a super idea.

Just let me think; why do lubricated air compressors (as against oil-
free compressors) often come complete with oleophilic and activated
charcoal filters for connection to the receiver's condensate drain?

Ah yes; that would be because it is very environmentally unfriendly
and very illegal to put oil into the drainage system.

Is there any area of technology in which you don't hold your expertise
in high regard and don't feel a compulsive need to propagate your half-
baked ideas across the internet?


Who is going to be the first to tell Johnson & Johnson?

Indeed, or the many skin cleaner and hair conditioner manufacturers
that put oil in their products. Perhaps the effect of the detergent in
the bathwater went unnoticed.

To mr onetap, I dont recall claiming to be offering an expert opinion
there. This is a discussion thread, for the purpose of discussing
possibilities.


NT

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:30:05 -0800, meow2222 wrote:
This is a discussion thread, for the purpose of discussing
possibilities.

Well, dumping used sump oil into the bath *is* a possibility, I suppose :-)

On 12 Feb, 18:42, Rod wrote:

Ah yes; that would be because it is very environmentally unfriendly
and very illegal to put oil into the drainage system.

Is there any area of technology in which you don't hold your expertise
in high regard and don't feel a compulsive need to propagate your half-
baked ideas across the internet?

Who is going to be the first to tell Johnson & Johnson?

Baby oil? Mineral oil? On a baby? Why? Do they rust?
Just hand out a COSHH data sheet with every bottle.
Is it just me that associates the phrase 'mineral oil' with the words
cancer and testicular.

On 12 Feb, 20:30, wrote:

To mr onetap, I dont recall claiming to be offering an expert opinion
there. This is a discussion thread, for the purpose of discussing
possibilities.

Have you ever done this?
Have you any knowledge of anyone, anywhere in the entire world who
has used oil to reduce the heat loss by evaporation from tepid water?
Please tell us.

Richard A Downing wrote:
I'm taking a year off from renovations during 2009, but next spring I'm
planning to renovate the main bathroom on my bungalow here in sunny
Cumbria. As you probably know it gets quite cold here and I
continually plot ideas to save heating oil - I used 1000l since the
beginning of November.

The boiler is a new Mistral Condensing 50-90 unit, and I have an OSO
pressurised 210l water tank (thanks Dr.D, I know about thermal stores,
and in 20 years that'll be the way I'll go). I'll lay in lots of wall
insulation, of course, and if I can, the heating will go underfloor as
I did in the Sitting Room, with insulation under (I used 100mm in the
Sitting Room). The loft is 250mm insulated.

So it seems to me that the biggest waste of heat left in the bathroom
will be the grey-water from SWMBO's daily baths - she does not do
showers.

A quick question...

Do you have a power shower? If you do, you might be surprised at the
amount of water that can be used during a shower. I have taken to
pulling the switch cord to turn the pump off when I am soaping up and
don't need the flow of water.

Dave

Onetap coughed up some electrons that declared:


Baby oil? Mineral oil?

Yes.

On a baby? Why?

Why not?

Do they rust?

Mr Data's daughter might?...


Just hand out a COSHH data sheet with every bottle.
Is it just me that associates the phrase 'mineral oil' with the words
cancer and testicular.

Just because it's a "mineral oil" doesn't make it the same as Esso. Besides,
I believe it's mostly the products in used engine oil that are the problem,
not to mention all the other additives that go into engine oil. The
additives in baby oil are generally limited to perfume, if any.

Cheers

Tim

In article , Tim S
writes

Sadly, one of my showers-to-be drops into an underfloor drain (as in under
concrete) so I can't use one there.

My bathroom's a wet room with a drain in the floor, which is solid.
However, it's all about to come out for a complete refurb and
installation of underfloor heating. I'll run the idea of a heat
recovery unit past the contractor, although the total cost of the refurb
is already somewhat more than I had anticipated.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png

Onetap wrote:

Baby oil? Mineral oil? On a baby? Why? Do they rust?
Just hand out a COSHH data sheet with every bottle.
Is it just me that associates the phrase 'mineral oil' with the words
cancer and testicular.


Onetap,

In many classes of substances there are some with bad effects. Jumping
to the assumption that there is bound to be an association with
testicular cancer is a bit over the top. I posted the J&J comment
(obviously, I hope, re baby oil) but I could equally well have posted
"extra virgin olive oil" or any of the hundreds of commercially traded
oils in the food and general skin and hair care markets or in
pharmaceuticals. There was nothing in the original post which mentioned
oil that suggested use of contaminated waste mineral oil rather than one
of the oils widely regarded as safe - whether animal, vegetable or
mineral in origin. And I rather thought it implicit that choice of oil
would be made on grounds of suitability not randomly.

There are many mineral oils used in, for example, pharmaceutical
products such as paraffin (white and yellow soft petroleum jelly and
liquid paraffin).

One reason for using baby oil is to promote their psychological
well-being. Appears there are many benefits in the human contact that
occurs when gently massaging.

I didn't quickly find a COSHH sheet for J&J Baby oil - how about an MSDS
sheet for J&J Creamy Baby Oil?

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=10001028

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On 2009-02-13, Tim S wrote:
Onetap coughed up some electrons that declared:
Baby oil? Mineral oil?
Yes.
On a baby? Why?
Why not?
Do they rust?
Mr Data's daughter might?...
Just hand out a COSHH data sheet with every bottle.
Is it just me that associates the phrase 'mineral oil' with the words
cancer and testicular.

Just because it's a "mineral oil" doesn't make it the same as Esso. Besides,
I believe it's mostly the products in used engine oil that are the problem,
not to mention all the other additives that go into engine oil. The
additives in baby oil are generally limited to perfume, if any.

As I remember, the problem was first noticed among machinists who were
wont to stuff an oily rag in the pockets of their overalls. So that was
lubricating oil for lathes, milling machines and the like. That would
be mineral oil straight from the refinery, rather than old sump oil.

As a sensible precaution, I've never used mineral oil on my child's skin
or my skin and have never knowingly eaten semi-dry fruit coated with
mineral oil, since hearing about mineral oil and testicular cancer.
I don't use them, but wonder what kind of oil is used in hair and
fabric "conditioners"?

I wish I'd been as quick to give up smoking, that took several more
years.

--
Jan

Rod wrote:

Onetap,

In many classes of substances there are some with bad effects. Jumping
to the assumption that there is bound to be an association with
testicular cancer is a bit over the top. I posted the J&J comment
(obviously, I hope, re baby oil) but I could equally well have posted
"extra virgin olive oil" or any of the hundreds of commercially traded
oils in the food and general skin and hair care markets or in
pharmaceuticals. There was nothing in the original post which mentioned
oil that suggested use of contaminated waste mineral oil rather than one
of the oils widely regarded as safe - whether animal, vegetable or
mineral in origin. And I rather thought it implicit that choice of oil
would be made on grounds of suitability not randomly.

It does seem one or 2 people lost the plot on that. Oils are a normal
part of skin & hair care.


NT

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:10:27 +0000, Dave
wrote:

Richard A Downing wrote:
I'm taking a year off from renovations during 2009, but next spring I'm
planning to renovate the main bathroom on my bungalow here in sunny
Cumbria. As you probably know it gets quite cold here and I
continually plot ideas to save heating oil - I used 1000l since the
beginning of November.

The boiler is a new Mistral Condensing 50-90 unit, and I have an OSO
pressurised 210l water tank (thanks Dr.D, I know about thermal stores,
and in 20 years that'll be the way I'll go). I'll lay in lots of wall
insulation, of course, and if I can, the heating will go underfloor as
I did in the Sitting Room, with insulation under (I used 100mm in the
Sitting Room). The loft is 250mm insulated.

So it seems to me that the biggest waste of heat left in the bathroom
will be the grey-water from SWMBO's daily baths - she does not do
showers.

A quick question...

Do you have a power shower? If you do, you might be surprised at the
amount of water that can be used during a shower. I have taken to
pulling the switch cord to turn the pump off when I am soaping up and
don't need the flow of water.

Go to Antarctica and you *have* to do that. 1 minute water, then
apply soap and shampoo. Then you have 1 minute to rinse off.
Fortunately they don't use combi's so that nearly all the water is at
the correct temperature.





--

On 13 Feb, 10:59, wrote:
Rod wrote:
Onetap,

In many classes of substances there are some with bad effects. Jumping
to the assumption that there is bound to be an association with..............


It does seem one or 2 people lost the plot on that. Oils are a normal
part of skin & hair care.


It is mineral oil, meaning not animal nor vegetable.
It is not jojoba oil, nor olive oil, nor sunflower oil, nor rendered
butter, nor whale oil, nor goosefat, nor any of the other oils that
people have traditionally used to anoint their bodies or hair with.
It originated in a well in Saudi Arabia or in the bed of the North
Sea.

Why would anyone put mineral oil on their skin or on a baby's skin?

Getting back to the point, you shouldn't put oil into the drains,
because it causes immense damage to the water treatment plant. Go and
discuss it with your drainage company if you don't believe me. Water
contaminated with oil should be disposed of as chemical waste.

Animal and vegetable oils biodegrade, mineral oil doesn't (not within
the same time frames, anyway).

On 13 Feb, 08:24, Rod wrote:

I didn't quickly find a COSHH sheet for J&J Baby oil - how about an MSDS
sheet for J&J Creamy Baby Oil?

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=bra...

It is on the link you provided. If you look at the list of ingredients
you will find Mineral Oil USP which goes to;

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov...bl=chem&id=126

Then click on the 'Human Health effects from Hazardous substances data
base and it goes to;

javascriptpenWindow('http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/r?
dbs+hsdb:@term+@rn+8012-95-1')


All the reported effects seem to be 'bad' and I can't think of any
benefits. IMHO you can shove that stuff right up your bottom.

Oh, you do?

Onetap wrote:
On 13 Feb, 08:24, Rod wrote:

I didn't quickly find a COSHH sheet for J&J Baby oil - how about an MSDS
sheet for J&J Creamy Baby Oil?

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=bra...

It is on the link you provided. If you look at the list of ingredients
you will find Mineral Oil USP which goes to;

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov...bl=chem&id=126

Then click on the 'Human Health effects from Hazardous substances data
base and it goes to;

javascriptpenWindow('http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/r?dbs+hsdb:@term+@rn+8012-95-1')


All the reported effects seem to be 'bad' and I can't think of any
benefits. IMHO you can shove that stuff right up your bottom.

Oh, you do?


a long list of the possible side effects of taking it orally,
injecting it and sticking it up your nose. We were discussing topical
application.

These kind of reports also need to be put in perspective. Those who
have read MSDS sheets for cake spice will know what I mean.


NT

Onetap wrote:
On 13 Feb, 10:59, wrote:
Rod wrote:
Onetap,
In many classes of substances there are some with bad effects. Jumping
to the assumption that there is bound to be an association with..............


It does seem one or 2 people lost the plot on that. Oils are a normal
part of skin & hair care.


It is mineral oil, meaning not animal nor vegetable.
It is not jojoba oil, nor olive oil, nor sunflower oil, nor rendered
butter, nor whale oil, nor goosefat, nor any of the other oils that
people have traditionally used to anoint their bodies or hair with.
It originated in a well in Saudi Arabia or in the bed of the North
Sea.

Why would anyone put mineral oil on their skin or on a baby's skin?

Getting back to the point, you shouldn't put oil into the drains,
because it causes immense damage to the water treatment plant. Go and
discuss it with your drainage company if you don't believe me. Water
contaminated with oil should be disposed of as chemical waste.

Animal and vegetable oils biodegrade, mineral oil doesn't (not within
the same time frames, anyway).

Your objection was on the basis of adding oil, type not specified, to a
bath full of hot/warm water. The idea would stand or fall regardless of
the source of the oil. I just threw in baby oil as an example of
something that a) is often put into baths; b) appears to be acceptable
to water companies [1]; c) is expressly sold for use in the most
delicate if human skin.

Anyway, "mineral oil" is something of a misnomer. The majority view
appears to be that it is from animal/vegetable/micro-creature origin -
just like the ones you listed.

[1] If it is so utterly unacceptable to them it is truly amazing that
they have not got it banned.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On 13 Feb, 19:17, Rod wrote:

Your objection was on the basis of adding oil, type not specified, to a
bath full of hot/warm water. The idea would stand or fall regardless of
the source of the oil.

Yes; it's a daft idea. Oil (as in lubricating oil) forms a nasty
emulsion and will foul the heat exchanger. It's insoluble and the
drainage companies really don't want it because it sticks and can't
easily be dissolved away.

I just threw in baby oil as an example of
something that a) is often put into baths; b) appears to be acceptable
to water companies [1]; c) is expressly sold for use in the most
delicate if human skin.

Yes. We digress, but interesting. An everyday cosmetic oil that one
might assume to be beneficial. I just don't see the point of using oil
of mineral origin on people. Why? It's like painting cats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil

It's a waste product. Buy it at $10 a barrel, add perfume and fancy
packaging, advertise it's health enhancing benefits, sell at £5 per
100 ml. Watch the suckers queue up. Is this the original snake oil?

Given it's source, I can't see that it is any more beneficial than
clean engine oil (without additives).

I off to give my first-born a wipe down with GTX.

Onetap wrote:
On 13 Feb, 19:17, Rod wrote:

I just threw in baby oil as an example of
something that a) is often put into baths; b) appears to be acceptable
to water companies [1]; c) is expressly sold for use in the most
delicate if human skin.

Yes. We digress, but interesting. An everyday cosmetic oil that one
might assume to be beneficial. I just don't see the point of using oil
of mineral origin on people. Why? It's like painting cats.

Indeed, if you want to stroke baby there is no need for oil to be
involved.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil

It's a waste product.

Waste: something of no use, something that needs disposal.
By defintiion its not. Its a petroleum product with many uses and a
market value.

Buy it at $10 a barrel, add perfume and fancy
packaging, advertise it's health enhancing benefits, sell at £5 per
100 ml.

Its about 50p per 100ml round here, do you live on the Orkneys?


Watch the suckers queue up. Is this the original snake oil?

You could say the same of masses of products in shops.

Given it's source, I can't see that it is any more beneficial than
clean engine oil (without additives).

I off to give my first-born a wipe down with GTX.

makes great hair conditioner Other than being too toxic.


NT

In article
s.com, Onetap writes

Yes; it's a daft idea. Oil (as in lubricating oil) forms a nasty
emulsion and will foul the heat exchanger. It's insoluble and the
drainage companies really don't want it because it sticks and can't
easily be dissolved away.

Oh come on. You've never looked in your kitchen sink drain pipe or in a
sewer. They're full of fat - body fat and the fats from soap - which,
um, "sticks and can't easily be dissolved away".

The water companies send men with shovels into the sewers to spade out
accumulated fat, so they're quite used to dealing with it.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png

wrote:
Onetap wrote:
On 13 Feb, 19:17, Rod wrote:

I just threw in baby oil as an example of
something that a) is often put into baths; b) appears to be acceptable
to water companies [1]; c) is expressly sold for use in the most
delicate if human skin.
Yes. We digress, but interesting. An everyday cosmetic oil that one
might assume to be beneficial. I just don't see the point of using oil
of mineral origin on people. Why? It's like painting cats.

Indeed, if you want to stroke baby there is no need for oil to be
involved.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil

It's a waste product.

Waste: something of no use, something that needs disposal.
By defintiion its not. Its a petroleum product with many uses and a
market value.

Buy it at $10 a barrel, add perfume and fancy
packaging, advertise it's health enhancing benefits, sell at £5 per
100 ml.

Its about 50p per 100ml round here, do you live on the Orkneys?


Watch the suckers queue up. Is this the original snake oil?

You could say the same of masses of products in shops.

Given it's source, I can't see that it is any more beneficial than
clean engine oil (without additives).

I off to give my first-born a wipe down with GTX.

makes great hair conditioner Other than being too toxic.


NT


Forgot to include this point:

Some people suggest that use of a non-mineral oil in baby skin care
products, specifically peanut oil, might be behind the avalanche of
peanut sensitivity. (I am not convinced either way.)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In message
,
writes
Onetap wrote:
On 13 Feb, 19:17, Rod wrote:

I just threw in baby oil as an example of
something that a) is often put into baths; b) appears to be acceptable
to water companies [1]; c) is expressly sold for use in the most
delicate if human skin.

Yes. We digress, but interesting. An everyday cosmetic oil that one
might assume to be beneficial. I just don't see the point of using oil
of mineral origin on people. Why? It's like painting cats.

Indeed, if you want to stroke baby there is no need for oil to be
involved.

Well, not if its 4 stroke !


--
geoff

On 14 Feb, 08:27, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Yes; it's a daft idea. Oil (as in lubricating oil) forms a nasty
emulsion and will foul the heat exchanger. It's insoluble and the
drainage companies really don't want it because it sticks and can't
easily be dissolved away.

Oh come on. You've never looked in your kitchen sink drain pipe or in a
sewer. They're full of fat - body fat and the fats from soap - which,
um, "sticks and can't easily be dissolved away".


Quite, which is why it is a really daft idea to put it through a heat
exchanger. Grey water heat exchangers get hugely contaminated with
soap scum, hair, etc., anyway and their efficiency falls off. The
running costs in maintenance mean they often do not achieve the
calculated pay-back.



The water companies send men with shovels into the sewers to spade out
accumulated fat, so they're quite used to dealing with it.

They do. Most of the oils and fats originate from cooking, are animal
or vegetable in origin and can be recycled, composted, burned or
similarly disposed of. I believe that the sewage grease balls used to
(and probably do still in most areas) go into animal feed.

As I understand it (I know bog-all about chemistry ) mineral-origin
oils from car servicing or compressor drains (which is where I
encountered this) present a different scale of problem due to their
chemical composition. A small volume of oil can contaminate a huge
volume of water. As mentioned above, discuss with Thames Water or some
such if you have difficulty with this concept.

This is the second idiotic idea that NT has posted on UK-DIY recently.
The other was restricting water flow to an outlet by crushing a 15mm
copper pipe. NT is convinced he's an expert but has no practical
experience and is worse than even Drivel.

I was recently involved in examining a failed LTHW system. The
regulating valve (variable) orifices had become blocked. Fully open
valves one-at-a-time, re-set, flow was restored. The accumulated
debris had been shifted from the orifice to the strainers. The
underlying cause was neglect of the chemical water treatment.

How far would you have to compress a copper pipe to take out, let’s
say, 2 bar of pressure from a 3 bar supply?

Onetap wrote:

Quite, which is why it is a really daft idea to put it through a heat
exchanger. Grey water heat exchangers get hugely contaminated with
soap scum, hair, etc., anyway and their efficiency falls off. The
running costs in maintenance mean they often do not achieve the
calculated pay-back.

But wasn't the original point that this (use of oil) represented a
possible [1] *alternative* to a heat exchanger?

And if they are so scummy and hairy already - a few extra drops of oil
will likely make little difference.

[1] 'Possible' as in speculatively usable but of currently (i.e. when
posted) undetermined merit.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Onetap wrote:

Yes; it's a daft idea. Oil (as in lubricating oil) forms a nasty
emulsion and will foul the heat exchanger. It's insoluble and the
drainage companies really don't want it because it sticks and can't
easily be dissolved away.


Response from Thames Water:

====

Dear Mr *****

Thank you for your email of 13 February 2009.

I can confirm that small amounts of oil going down the drain will not be
a problem. Most hair and shower products, washing powders and soaps
contain fat, which wash into the sewers every day. The fat and oil that
can causes problems with the sewers are cooking fat and oil; this must
not be put down the drain.

====

As I expected, they seem to have no problems with the small amounts of
mineral oil that would be required.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
Mike Tomlinson coughed up some electrons that declared:

In article , Richard A
Downing writes

But is there a simple
way of using the waste heat in the grey-water for heating (aside from
letting it go cold in the bath tub before pulling the plug)?

I've often wondered if this could be used to warm up the cold feed to a
mixer shower (or even an elcetric one). It'd need to be a thermostatic
mixer, however.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Heat_Exchanger

Also, and this works......and tested by the US dept of energy.
http://gfxtechnology.com/faq.html

Also..I don't know much about these...
http://www.shower-save.com/