There has been some previous discussion about this but has anyone
actually seen it work.

To save space, we want to have a 'back to wall loo' with a concealed
cistern and we want to conceal it in the loft, about 2.5 metres above
the loo. Worse than that, we want to run the flush pipe out from the
loft though the exterior 8" brick wall, down the outside of the
house, and back in through the wall again at the required position for
the loo.

Are we being ridiculous?

Robert

RobertL wrote:
There has been some previous discussion about this but has anyone
actually seen it work.

To save space, we want to have a 'back to wall loo' with a concealed
cistern and we want to conceal it in the loft, about 2.5 metres above
the loo. Worse than that, we want to run the flush pipe out from the
loft though the exterior 8" brick wall, down the outside of the
house, and back in through the wall again at the required position for
the loo.

Are we being ridiculous?

Robert


if the loft insulation is on the loft floor then will the cistern freeze?
and will the outside pipe freeze?

[g]

"george (dicegeorge)" wrote in message
...


RobertL wrote:
There has been some previous discussion about this but has anyone
actually seen it work.

To save space, we want to have a 'back to wall loo' with a concealed
cistern and we want to conceal it in the loft, about 2.5 metres above
the loo. Worse than that, we want to run the flush pipe out from the
loft though the exterior 8" brick wall, down the outside of the
house, and back in through the wall again at the required position for
the loo.

Are we being ridiculous?

Robert

if the loft insulation is on the loft floor then will the cistern freeze?
and will the outside pipe freeze?

Modern siphons have the overflow via the siphon and down the flush pipe into
the bowl. If overflowing this could freeze up. So not a good idea.

Having the cistern in the loft is a good idea. Use an electric flush button.
The pipe can be smaller than normal as the head of water will be enough to
push the water down. Also less water can be in the cistern too. A normal
sized pipe may result in the water splashing when flushed. Many people when
going from a siphon to a flap valve experience splashing in a low level
toilet.

A 1" flush pipe may all you need - which can go in the wall. If high enough
even a 22mm pipe may do, only using bends. I would do a test on that first
before any firm fitting.

RobertL wrote:

There has been some previous discussion about this but has anyone
actually seen it work.

To save space, we want to have a 'back to wall loo' with a concealed
cistern and we want to conceal it in the loft, about 2.5 metres above
the loo. Worse than that, we want to run the flush pipe out from the
loft though the exterior 8" brick wall, down the outside of the
house, and back in through the wall again at the required position for
the loo.

Are we being ridiculous?


Only in the winter. It should work fine in the summer. ;-)

RobertL wrote:

To save space, we want to have a 'back to wall loo' with a concealed
cistern and we want to conceal it in the loft, about 2.5 metres above
the loo. Worse than that, we want to run the flush pipe out from the
loft though the exterior 8" brick wall, down the outside of the
house, and back in through the wall again at the required position for
the loo.

Are we being ridiculous?

I don't know. Certainly a 2.5m head of water should do an efficient job
of flushing the toilet, and I'd certainly be interested to know whether
it does it down the drain or in an exciting indoor tsunami. It could be
quite a feature.

Daniele

"D.M. Procida" wrote in
message
...
RobertL wrote:

To save space, we want to have a 'back to wall loo' with a concealed
cistern and we want to conceal it in the loft, about 2.5 metres above
the loo. Worse than that, we want to run the flush pipe out from the
loft though the exterior 8" brick wall, down the outside of the
house, and back in through the wall again at the required position for
the loo.

Are we being ridiculous?

I don't know. Certainly a 2.5m head of water should do an efficient job
of flushing the toilet, and I'd certainly be interested to know whether
it does it down the drain or in an exciting indoor tsunami. It could be
quite a feature.

Daniele

Good luck - I never did see the point of having a tank of water taking up
space in the bathroom

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:21:12 -0800 (PST), RobertL
wrote:

There has been some previous discussion about this but has anyone
actually seen it work.

To save space, we want to have a 'back to wall loo' with a concealed
cistern and we want to conceal it in the loft, about 2.5 metres above
the loo. Worse than that, we want to run the flush pipe out from the
loft though the exterior 8" brick wall, down the outside of the
house, and back in through the wall again at the required position for
the loo.

Are we being ridiculous?

The biggest problem is trying to get a decent velocity of water when
you flush the loo. Several needless bends are going to severely
restrict the flow of water.

--
Frank Erskine

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:21:12 -0800 (PST), RobertL
wrote:

There has been some previous discussion about this but has anyone
actually seen it work.

To save space, we want to have a 'back to wall loo' with a concealed
cistern and we want to conceal it in the loft, about 2.5 metres above
the loo. Worse than that, we want to run the flush pipe out from the
loft though the exterior 8" brick wall, down the outside of the
house, and back in through the wall again at the required position for
the loo.

Are we being ridiculous?

The biggest problem is trying to get a decent velocity of water when
you flush the loo. Several needless bends are going to severely
restrict the flow of water.

Why should that be the case? The tank can be directly above and only bends
used. In fact the tank can be in the apex to give a great head, and only
22mm plastic pipe used. If too head too great put an in-line restrictor
in.

RobertL wrote:
There has been some previous discussion about this but has anyone
actually seen it work.

To save space, we want to have a 'back to wall loo' with a concealed
cistern and we want to conceal it in the loft, about 2.5 metres above
the loo. Worse than that, we want to run the flush pipe out from the
loft though the exterior 8" brick wall, down the outside of the
house, and back in through the wall again at the required position for
the loo.

Are we being ridiculous?

Robert

This is almost exactly as you describe:

http://www.thebluebook.co.uk/static/5_2_4.asp?Specifying=&digits=5:2:4

A few points:

o As others have pointed out, freezing is most definitely an issue.
However, for all we know, the 'outside' wall could be within a
conservatory or something else that would protect it.
o This, as many other BTW WCs, has an outflow at the back - which also
has to go through the wall. I think you might find it difficult to find
a really compact one that has a side or bottom outlet that would work
within the room.
o Make sure that there is room for the seat to fit properly - i.e. not
fall down.

That link is to the Blue Book which contains extensive details of the
company's WC (and other) products. Most useful are the detailed
installation diagrams.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Jan 27, 4:57*pm, Rod wrote:
RobertL wrote:
There has been some previous discussion about this but has anyone
actually seen it work.

To save space, we want to have a 'back to wall loo' with a concealed
cistern and we want to conceal it *in the loft, about 2.5 metres above
the loo. *Worse *than that, we want to run the flush pipe out from the
loft *though the exterior 8" brick wall, down the outside of the
house, and back in through the wall again at the required position for
the loo.

Are we being ridiculous?

Robert

This is almost exactly as you describe:

http://www.thebluebook.co.uk/static/5_2_4.asp?Specifying=&digits=5:2:4

A few points:

o *As others have pointed out, freezing is most definitely an issue.
However, for all we know, the 'outside' wall could be within a
conservatory or something else that would protect it.
o *This, as many other BTW WCs, has an outflow at the back - which also
has to go through the wall. I think you might find it difficult to find
a really compact one that has a side or bottom outlet that would work
within the room.
o *Make sure that there is room for the seat to fit properly - i.e. not
fall down.

That link is to the Blue Book which contains extensive details of the
company's WC (and other) products. Most useful are the detailed
installation diagrams.



In fact we want the outlet and inlet to both go through the wall so
the choice of WC is quite large.




It's an intersting thought that 22mm pipe might do it, but if we want
bends (not elbows) then it cannot really be embedded in the wall.

Freezing: we'd build the loft insulation over the cistern so it would
be inside the bathroom from a heat point of view. Freezing in the
external pipe is more difficult to stop, and the overflow problem
makes this more important. A fros tstat and heater seems a bit
excessive.

With all that torrent of water, perhaps I could make a new design that
washes the cleint's bum at the same time as flushing the loo:-) Most
invigorating.


R

On Jan 27, 5:34*pm, RobertL wrote:
On Jan 27, 4:57*pm, Rod wrote:


here's my calculation of the required tube diameter.

normal system: 42mm diam, 0.5m long, 1kg/sec (all guesses)

using

http://www.cda.org.uk/megab2/build/tn39/appb1.htm

shows the pressure drop is 80 Pascals, head = 5000 Pascals, pressure
at loo = 4120 Pa

We need the same flow rate and pressure at the loo:

new 2.5m long, 1kg/sec, pressure at loo 4120 (same), head =
25,000pa
so the pipe pressure drop is (25000-4120)/2.5 = 8,352 Pa/m

For 1kg/s the table gives a pipe diameter of.... er... 22mm (as
someone more experienced above guessed).


Interesting.

R

RobertL wrote:
There has been some previous discussion about this but has anyone
actually seen it work.

To save space, we want to have a 'back to wall loo' with a concealed
cistern and we want to conceal it in the loft, about 2.5 metres above
the loo. Worse than that, we want to run the flush pipe out from the
loft though the exterior 8" brick wall, down the outside of the
house, and back in through the wall again at the required position for
the loo.

Are we being ridiculous?


A bit :-)

Ive got a close coupled in a space only about 2'6 deep.


Biggest problem will be throttling the flow, and freezing of pipes outside.

The head on even a trad 'up near the ceiling cistern' loo is enough to
flick turds out of the pan..



Robert

I was thinking of doing the same in my ensuite but in the end decided
not to.

A concealed cistern doesnt take up much room. They are tiny.
It has to be fitted within a very limited range of heights above the
pan. Def not in the roofspace

Assuming you dont want a pull cord flush then you want a push button
flush on the the end of a pipe - which is what comes with a concealed
cistern and not with much (anything?) else so far as I could discover

So I gave up on the idea ...

And it turns out that in a tiny bathoom the shelf above the boxed in
cistern is EXTREMELY USEFUL

Anna

RobertL wrote:
On Jan 27, 5:34*pm, RobertL wrote:
On Jan 27, 4:57*pm, Rod wrote:


here's my calculation of the required tube diameter.

normal system: 42mm diam, 0.5m long, 1kg/sec (all guesses)

using

http://www.cda.org.uk/megab2/build/tn39/appb1.htm

shows the pressure drop is 80 Pascals, head = 5000 Pascals, pressure
at loo = 4120 Pa

We need the same flow rate and pressure at the loo:

new 2.5m long, 1kg/sec, pressure at loo 4120 (same), head =
25,000pa
so the pipe pressure drop is (25000-4120)/2.5 = 8,352 Pa/m

For 1kg/s the table gives a pipe diameter of.... er... 22mm (as
someone more experienced above guessed).


Interesting.

R


Thats the main q, the necessary tube dia for it to work as before. I'd
try a test rig-up on which it was easy to replace the tube with a diff
dia - eg try it in the garden first.

Overflow is easily handled, just add a standard header tank style
overflow in the loft. This will act as a secondary overflow.

That leaves the freezing pipe q - and I can see that being a problem.
Each flush, if cold enough, may leave a thin film of water in the pipe
that freezes. Plastic has more chance of behaving better than copper,
and I guess you could always retrofit insulation if it proves
necessary. If the situation is such that you could always run an
internal flush pipe later if you had to, then go for it. If not, I'd
think its unlikely to block with an insulated flush pipe.

Go for it. You could take some piccies and put it on the wiki.


NT

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

The head on even a trad 'up near the ceiling cistern' loo is enough to
flick turds out of the pan..

Damn! I hadn't thought of that for my Victorian cast-iron jobby.

With all that torrent of water, perhaps I could make a new design that
washes the cleint's bum at the same time as flushing the loo:-) *Most
invigorating.

R

That brings back memories of a campsite near Istanbul in the late
1960's - no toilet paper supplied ! Whoa ! what does one do? Only to
discover a well polished little tap just at hand which did supplied
just as the OP describes.

Rob

On 29 Jan, 22:53, wrote:

Damn! I hadn't thought of that for my Victorian cast-iron jobby.

Don't cast iron jobbys damage the pan?

A work colleague did this with his old cast-iron bell cistern, with
the pull cord coming through the ceiling. The head of water and the
resulting powerful flush could shift the most immovable logs from the
pan and blasted it clean as well, apparently. I never had an
opportunity to test drive it.

In fact, the first IA (immediate action) drill on a partially blocked
(not overflowing) toilet is a large bucket of water poured in as fast
as possible; the second IA is a large bucket of water poured in as
fast as possible whilst standing on a chair (once the level has
dropped). It has never failed me.

My modern close-coupled 6 litre water-saving BS toilet often fails to
clear the pan of even small deposits and then requires several
additional water-wasting flushes.

The only problem I anticipate is splashing, but you should close the
lid on any WC before flushing; the range achieved by the water
droplets is quite impressive. You may well find that it works
effectively with a reduced water content.

If the cistern is within the insulated envelope of the building, it
will be no more liable to freeze than a cistern in the bathroom.

In message
,
Onetap writes
On 29 Jan, 22:53, wrote:

Damn! I hadn't thought of that for my Victorian cast-iron jobby.

Don't cast iron jobbys damage the pan?

A work colleague did this with his old cast-iron bell cistern, with
the pull cord coming through the ceiling. The head of water and the
resulting powerful flush could shift the most immovable logs from the
pan and blasted it clean as well, apparently. I never had an
opportunity to test drive it.
I think it should be fine as long as you didn't make the mistake of
flushing whilst still occupying the throne in question, the resulting
pressure differential could pull even the strongest person down the pan
too...
--
Clint Sharp