Hi Folks,

OK - not so pleased. Just had another look at the floor - builders asked for
latex and got fobbed of with "Cempolay" (I was wrong, I thought they got
sold "Cempolatex 1 part".). Sigh. Wish I'd known what I do now 4 weeks
ago...

Cempolay is basic cement-y levelling compound. Nothing special. That's
actually 20 quid on Travis's website, so it seems Mr Builder got charged
the same as I could get with a TP Cash card. Proper 2 part would be 29
quid - hardly breaking the bank.

---

OK. Let's make the best of a bad job... What I'd like to find out before I
buy a 25 litre drum is: what can SBR do.

I do know (from this group and reading the sheets) it's used as an admix to
make a sand/cement screed apply thinner than normally possible.

And I know the properties of PVA on a dry substrate and its abilities to
glue all manner of crap into a solid mass.

So:

1) Does SBR glue up and stabilise all manner of crap in the same was as PVA,
but is resistant to water (unlike PVA)?

2) Can SBR be used as a basic crude DPM when applied to the surface of
concrete?

3) Should SBR be diluted with water for the first application onto a porous
substrate like PVA, the add another undiluted or less diluted coat
afterwards?

---

I ask because I'm considering rescue plans.

The few hollow sounding bits in the floor are (upon investigation) due to
the sub-screed being apparently 99% sand and 1% "other" in a couple of
places (looks like areas where the 1970's "builders" doing a agarge knock
through have been let loose).[1]

What I'm considering doing is to drill some 10mm holes in the dodgey places
and pour in neat SBR until it wont take anymore, in the hope of stabilising
the crap under the levelling compound (which itself is solid and firm).

Then I plan to go over the top with SBR to lower the amount of damp hitting
the tile adhesive.

I also plan to chuck SBR over the concrete slab in the bathroom area before
applying screed to there to stabilised, damp proof and give better
adhesion.

[1] Yes - I could also dig these out back to the concrete and re-screed. But
it's more work. It's not like the floor's collapsing, but I'd like to
ensure it's firm - If I start digging I have the feeling I won't stop till
it's all up and I don;t really want to go there...

Cheers

Tim

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:38:55 +0000, Tim S wrote:

What I'm considering doing is to drill some 10mm holes in the dodgey places
and pour in neat SBR until it wont take anymore, in the hope of stabilising
the crap under the levelling compound (which itself is solid and firm).

Might be best done through a tube if possible, so that it fills up from the
bottom.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

PeterC coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:38:55 +0000, Tim S wrote:

What I'm considering doing is to drill some 10mm holes in the dodgey
places and pour in neat SBR until it wont take anymore, in the hope of
stabilising the crap under the levelling compound (which itself is solid
and firm).

Might be best done through a tube if possible, so that it fills up from
the bottom.

Funnily enough I was thinking something like that - with plastic funnels
Poke them in, fill up and have coffee.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
PeterC coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:38:55 +0000, Tim S wrote:

What I'm considering doing is to drill some 10mm holes in the dodgey
places and pour in neat SBR until it wont take anymore, in the hope of
stabilising the crap under the levelling compound (which itself is solid
and firm).
Might be best done through a tube if possible, so that it fills up from
the bottom.

Funnily enough I was thinking something like that - with plastic funnels
Poke them in, fill up and have coffee.

Cheers

Tim



Very penetrating. You might be pouring for a long time :-)

Stuart Noble coughed up some electrons that declared:


Very penetrating. You might be pouring for a long time :-)

Thanks Stuart,

Excellent - that's what I want, at least to a degree - should mean it will
soak in to the surface effectively too.

I suppose I can apply, wait for it to set, then apply again.

Am I right concerning the other general properties - like being waterproof
and being a good binding agent?

All the sheets I can find relate to it's use as an admix, not a builder's
bodging liquid.

Cheers

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
...

1) Does SBR glue up and stabilise all manner of crap in the same was as
PVA,
but is resistant to water (unlike PVA)?

2) Can SBR be used as a basic crude DPM when applied to the surface of
concrete?

SBR is *ONLY* used as an admix for sand/cement screed.



-

Mark coughed up some electrons that declared:


"Tim S" wrote in message
...

1) Does SBR glue up and stabilise all manner of crap in the same was as
PVA,
but is resistant to water (unlike PVA)?

2) Can SBR be used as a basic crude DPM when applied to the surface of
concrete?

SBR is *ONLY* used as an admix for sand/cement screed.


Thanks Mark.

Are there any other liquid products I could look at for stabilising slightly
damp crap, including the surface of friable concrete prior to laying a
sand/cement/SBR screed?

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
Stuart Noble coughed up some electrons that declared:

Very penetrating. You might be pouring for a long time :-)

Thanks Stuart,

Excellent - that's what I want, at least to a degree - should mean it will
soak in to the surface effectively too.

I suppose I can apply, wait for it to set, then apply again.

Am I right concerning the other general properties - like being waterproof
and being a good binding agent?

All the sheets I can find relate to it's use as an admix, not a builder's
bodging liquid.

Cheers

Tim


It's clear and slightly rubbery ( I can tell that from runs on the
container), so of limited use on its own I'd imagine. Very thin compared
to pva, but that doesn't mean it isn't a high solids emulsion. Suck it a
and see I guess. Keep it off your hands, it penetrates skin pretty well too.

Tim S wrote in message
...
Mark coughed up some electrons that declared:


"Tim S" wrote in message
...

1) Does SBR glue up and stabilise all manner of crap in the same was as
PVA,
but is resistant to water (unlike PVA)?

2) Can SBR be used as a basic crude DPM when applied to the surface of
concrete?

SBR is *ONLY* used as an admix for sand/cement screed.


Thanks Mark.

Are there any other liquid products I could look at for stabilising
slightly
damp crap, including the surface of friable concrete prior to laying a
sand/cement/SBR screed?

Both a SBR sand/cement screed or a Latex screed should if mixed and applied
properly be ok.
Fwiw my preference has always been an SBR screed.


-

Mark wrote:
"Tim S" wrote in message
...
1) Does SBR glue up and stabilise all manner of crap in the same was as
PVA,
but is resistant to water (unlike PVA)?

2) Can SBR be used as a basic crude DPM when applied to the surface of
concrete?

SBR is *ONLY* used as an admix for sand/cement screed.



-


Use it for whatever you like if you know its properties. I'm sure there
was a time when pva was only used as an adhesive.

Mark wrote:
Tim S wrote in message
...
Mark coughed up some electrons that declared:

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
1) Does SBR glue up and stabilise all manner of crap in the same was as
PVA,
but is resistant to water (unlike PVA)?

2) Can SBR be used as a basic crude DPM when applied to the surface of
concrete?
SBR is *ONLY* used as an admix for sand/cement screed.

Thanks Mark.

Are there any other liquid products I could look at for stabilising
slightly
damp crap, including the surface of friable concrete prior to laying a
sand/cement/SBR screed?

Both a SBR sand/cement screed or a Latex screed should if mixed and applied
properly be ok.

Same thing surely. SBR is latex

Fwiw my preference has always been an SBR screed.


-

Tim S wrote:
Hi Folks,

OK - not so pleased. Just had another look at the floor - builders
asked for latex and got fobbed of with "Cempolay" (I was wrong, I
thought they got sold "Cempolatex 1 part".). Sigh. Wish I'd known
what I do now 4 weeks ago...

Cempolay is basic cement-y levelling compound. Nothing special. That's
actually 20 quid on Travis's website, so it seems Mr Builder got
charged the same as I could get with a TP Cash card. Proper 2 part
would be 29
quid - hardly breaking the bank.

---

OK. Let's make the best of a bad job... What I'd like to find out
before I buy a 25 litre drum is: what can SBR do.

I do know (from this group and reading the sheets) it's used as an
admix to make a sand/cement screed apply thinner than normally
possible.

And I know the properties of PVA on a dry substrate and its abilities
to glue all manner of crap into a solid mass.

So:

1) Does SBR glue up and stabilise all manner of crap in the same was
as PVA, but is resistant to water (unlike PVA)?

2) Can SBR be used as a basic crude DPM when applied to the surface of
concrete?

3) Should SBR be diluted with water for the first application onto a
porous substrate like PVA, the add another undiluted or less diluted
coat afterwards?

---

I ask because I'm considering rescue plans.

The few hollow sounding bits in the floor are (upon investigation)
due to the sub-screed being apparently 99% sand and 1% "other" in a
couple of places (looks like areas where the 1970's "builders" doing
a agarge knock through have been let loose).[1]

What I'm considering doing is to drill some 10mm holes in the dodgey
places and pour in neat SBR until it wont take anymore, in the hope
of stabilising the crap under the levelling compound (which itself is
solid and firm).

Then I plan to go over the top with SBR to lower the amount of damp
hitting the tile adhesive.

I also plan to chuck SBR over the concrete slab in the bathroom area
before applying screed to there to stabilised, damp proof and give
better adhesion.

[1] Yes - I could also dig these out back to the concrete and
re-screed. But it's more work. It's not like the floor's collapsing,
but I'd like to ensure it's firm - If I start digging I have the
feeling I won't stop till it's all up and I don;t really want to go
there...

Cheers

Tim

Hate to say 'I told you so', but without actually saying those words, I
can't think of a way of finishing this sentence :-p

It would have been cheaper and quicker to take the lot up, add insulation,
then membrane and concrete, but money has now been been spent, and no matter
what you do now, I fear you are throwing good money after bad.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Tim S wrote:
Mark coughed up some electrons that declared:


"Tim S" wrote in message
...

1) Does SBR glue up and stabilise all manner of crap in the same was as
PVA,
but is resistant to water (unlike PVA)?

2) Can SBR be used as a basic crude DPM when applied to the surface of
concrete?

SBR is *ONLY* used as an admix for sand/cement screed.


Thanks Mark.

Are there any other liquid products I could look at for stabilising slightly
damp crap,

cement & water slurry. It stabilises damp soil well, sand, stones,
etc.

including the surface of friable concrete prior to laying a
sand/cement/SBR screed?

Cheers

Tim

not sure about that - wouldnt be surprised if cement slurry worked
though.


NT

Phil L coughed up some electrons that declared:

Hate to say 'I told you so', but without actually saying those words, I
can't think of a way of finishing this sentence :-p

I'm sure you're right Phil. But I estimated doing that the other day, based
on amount of concrete, skip, screed and man-days. It was looking like over
2k-2.5k in labour and materials - unfortunately which ever way you look at
it, I simply don't have the budget to spend that on one room's floor given
all the other stuff that *must* be fixed.

2k might seem high but I was quoted 400-450 to skim plaster the walls of the
same room and that's one man + lad for 2 days - so I don't think my
estimate's far off.

Sometimes the most correct solution just isn't feasible.

Cheers

Tim

coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:
Mark coughed up some electrons that declared:


"Tim S" wrote in message
...

1) Does SBR glue up and stabilise all manner of crap in the same was
as PVA,
but is resistant to water (unlike PVA)?

2) Can SBR be used as a basic crude DPM when applied to the surface of
concrete?

SBR is *ONLY* used as an admix for sand/cement screed.


Thanks Mark.

Are there any other liquid products I could look at for stabilising
slightly damp crap,

cement & water slurry. It stabilises damp soil well, sand, stones,
etc.

That's a good idea. SBR and cement can be mixed as a primer for screed (from
an application sheet).

Cheers

Tim

Mark coughed up some electrons that declared:


Both a SBR sand/cement screed or a Latex screed should if mixed and
applied properly be ok.
Fwiw my preference has always been an SBR screed.

Ta

Tim

Stuart Noble coughed up some electrons that declared:

Use it for whatever you like if you know its properties. I'm sure there
was a time when pva was only used as an adhesive.

That's the nub of my query: what are it's properties?

Does a bit of it by itself set solid like PVA? PVA has limited gap filling
properties so it clearly makes a good binding agent. Ordinarily I'd just
pour PVA into dodgey cracks and holes, but knowing it will be exposed to
continuous damp, I've seen warnings on this group that it will dissolve
into squidgey gunk.

Unfortunatly SBR isn't the sort of stuff I can get 100ml from B&Q to fiddle
with, I'll have to bite the bullet and get 5l, or 25l from the builders
yard.

I was hoping that someone had played with it enough to give me a lead, but
if it comes to it, I'll get 5l and try some stuff.

Cheers

Tim

Mark coughed up some electrons that declared:


Both a SBR sand/cement screed or a Latex screed should if mixed and
applied properly be ok.
Fwiw my preference has always been an SBR screed.


Thanks Mark.

OK - do you don't slosh diluted SBR all over the substrate first, like you
would with PVA?

I was also looking for a liquid chemical that could be liberally poured
through holes and cracks to lock up any friable material underneath.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
Stuart Noble coughed up some electrons that declared:

Use it for whatever you like if you know its properties. I'm sure there
was a time when pva was only used as an adhesive.

That's the nub of my query: what are it's properties?


Does a bit of it by itself set solid like PVA?


Yes, except it's softer, so you don't want a film of it building up on
the surface. Not much chance of that happening due to the low viscosity
(it has the consistency of milk), but it would eventually I suppose.


PVA has limited gap filling
properties so it clearly makes a good binding agent. Ordinarily I'd just
pour PVA into dodgey cracks and holes, but knowing it will be exposed to
continuous damp, I've seen warnings on this group that it will dissolve
into squidgey gunk.

Unfortunatly SBR isn't the sort of stuff I can get 100ml from B&Q to fiddle
with, I'll have to bite the bullet and get 5l, or 25l from the builders
yard.

I was hoping that someone had played with it enough to give me a lead, but
if it comes to it, I'll get 5l and try some stuff.

It comes in handy where you need a thin layer of mortar that would
normally crack, repairing steps, sills etc. IIRC Feb 5L was about £25
last time I bought some.

Stuart Noble coughed up some electrons that declared:


Does a bit of it [edit: SBR] by itself set solid like PVA?


Yes, except it's softer, so you don't want a film of it building up on
the surface. Not much chance of that happening due to the low viscosity
(it has the consistency of milk), but it would eventually I suppose.

OK - chances are then, that it would bind up the odd bit of loose crap under
the floor surface if I pour it through a couple of holes. I'll try some -
nothing to lose.

It comes in handy where you need a thin layer of mortar that would
normally crack, repairing steps, sills etc. IIRC Feb 5L was about £25
last time I bought some.

I've got bits of patch repairing to do that's too thick for latex screed + I
need to stick a 15-20mm screed down in a couple of small rooms - sounds
ideal.

Thanks Stuart!

Cheers

Tim