We've just new chipboard floor boards fitted to the middle section of
trusses from gable to gable. Before that alot of the boards were
broken and they only extended about a quarter of the way along then a
little further with loose boards. Anyway there is just a single 100W
bulb in a pendant and its very inadequate now. I'm asking our
electrician to put four 4ft fluorescent tube lights up there. I was
wondering what the best manufacturer for them is. With it being in the
loft I wanted to get the best possible to avoid replacing eg if the
ballast goes.

Many thanks!

In article ,
Rod wrote:
We could have a 13A socket (as now) with a secondary socket
incorporated.

That would save no space - and simply complicate things for no advantage.
You might as well just have an adaptor if you had a second smaller plug.
Which I think is a bad idea anyway.
Our system may not be perfect - but it's better than any other currently
in use.

--
*Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[international mains plugs]

In uk.d-i-y, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Our system may not be perfect - but it's better than any other currently
in use.

Unfortunately, that's what everybody says.

--
Mike Barnes

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:26:33 -0800 (PST), Distorted Vision wrote:

We've just new chipboard floor boards fitted to the middle section of
trusses from gable to gable. Before that alot of the boards were
broken and they only extended about a quarter of the way along then a
little further with loose boards. Anyway there is just a single 100W
bulb in a pendant and its very inadequate now. I'm asking our
electrician to put four 4ft fluorescent tube lights up there. I was
wondering what the best manufacturer for them is. With it being in the
loft I wanted to get the best possible to avoid replacing eg if the
ballast goes.

Many thanks!

Depends how long your loft is, but I was doing the same sort of job and
considered 3 or 4 tubes, One problem was getting them home, as I don't have
a car, then in Morrisons there were CFLs at 4 for £1 so I bought quite a
lot of 11W and 14W (gave several to my neighbour). Went to Wilkinsons and
bought some batten holders, Screwfix for cable etc.
Put 7 fitting along the loft, now have good, distributed lighting and the
total cost was about £8!
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Rod wrote:
We could have a 13A socket (as now) with a secondary socket
incorporated.

That would save no space - and simply complicate things for no advantage.
You might as well just have an adaptor if you had a second smaller plug.
Which I think is a bad idea anyway.
Our system may not be perfect - but it's better than any other currently
in use.

It would not save space on the wall. Unless people choose to fit
multi-way sockets which could easily be much denser. Obviously, that
would only be appropriate in places where it is anticipated that lots of
small things will be in use.

What it would do is permit a neat, relatively safe design of light duty
plug. (One that doesn't take up more space than the appliance in some
cases.)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In article ,
Distorted Vision writes:
We've just new chipboard floor boards fitted to the middle section of
trusses from gable to gable. Before that alot of the boards were
broken and they only extended about a quarter of the way along then a
little further with loose boards. Anyway there is just a single 100W
bulb in a pendant and its very inadequate now. I'm asking our
electrician to put four 4ft fluorescent tube lights up there. I was
wondering what the best manufacturer for them is. With it being in the
loft I wanted to get the best possible to avoid replacing eg if the
ballast goes.

In a loft for very occasional use, just use a cheap 4-pack from
one of the sheds, or from a wholesaler if he can match the price
(probably can't). Old magnetic ballasts hardly ever die (providing
you ignore the american 120V marketplace, where they often die).

Might want to think if you need any method to avoid leaving them
on accidentally.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Rod wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Rod wrote:
We could have a 13A socket (as now) with a secondary socket
incorporated.

That would save no space - and simply complicate things for no
advantage. You might as well just have an adaptor if you had a second
smaller plug. Which I think is a bad idea anyway. Our system may not
be perfect - but it's better than any other currently in use.

It would not save space on the wall. Unless people choose to fit
multi-way sockets which could easily be much denser. Obviously, that
would only be appropriate in places where it is anticipated that lots of
small things will be in use.

What it would do is permit a neat, relatively safe design of light duty
plug. (One that doesn't take up more space than the appliance in some
cases.)

Here the two areas where that might help is round a computer installation
and an AV one. But not everyone will have so much clutter - so if all they
want is a printer to be used with a laptop is it to be supplied with a
large or small plug under your scheme? Or both? Or without - and you fit
your own? Then, of course, many small appliances use a wall wart - and
these would be too large for your small socket.

--
*I love cats...they taste just like chicken.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Rod wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Rod wrote:
We could have a 13A socket (as now) with a secondary socket
incorporated.
That would save no space - and simply complicate things for no
advantage. You might as well just have an adaptor if you had a second
smaller plug. Which I think is a bad idea anyway. Our system may not
be perfect - but it's better than any other currently in use.

It would not save space on the wall. Unless people choose to fit
multi-way sockets which could easily be much denser. Obviously, that
would only be appropriate in places where it is anticipated that lots of
small things will be in use.

What it would do is permit a neat, relatively safe design of light duty
plug. (One that doesn't take up more space than the appliance in some
cases.)

Here the two areas where that might help is round a computer installation
and an AV one. But not everyone will have so much clutter - so if all they
want is a printer to be used with a laptop is it to be supplied with a
large or small plug under your scheme? Or both? Or without - and you fit
your own? Then, of course, many small appliances use a wall wart - and
these would be too large for your small socket.

Fitted with a lead using a 'Rod's Universal' plug. Everyone, but
everyone, in the UK will have a few 13A to RU adaptors. If it uses a
figure-of-8 lead or similar that plugs into the printer (i.e. not a
fixed lead), maybe people would choose to use a 13A lead as a
need-to-buy-separately alternative.

Go to Euro-socket land with your laptop and printer, all you need is the
local adaptor. And only if you go to places that have not yet fitted the
new RU sockets!

Wall warts should be replaced by PoE, USB or something else common.

I don't think that it is only computer and AV kit - though they probably
do predominate. Thinking about low power devices near me (but we have
yet to agree a definition of low power!):

Lamp (11W CFL)
Shaver
DVD player
Virgin Box
Monitors
External drives
Bosch drill battery charger
Makita battery charger
Mouse base stations
Desk fan
Lamp (20W halogen)
Kitchen hand mixer
Torch charger
Printer
Scanner (but that is happy on USB-only)
Hair clippers
Car battery charger
Soldering iron
Hot melt glue gun
Stapler
Phone chargers
DECT phone adaptor

And I am sure I have missed quite a few.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In article ,
Rod wrote:
I don't think that it is only computer and AV kit - though they probably
do predominate. Thinking about low power devices near me (but we have
yet to agree a definition of low power!):

Lamp (11W CFL)
Shaver
DVD player
Virgin Box
Monitors
External drives
Bosch drill battery charger
Makita battery charger
Mouse base stations
Desk fan
Lamp (20W halogen)
Kitchen hand mixer
Torch charger
Printer
Scanner (but that is happy on USB-only)
Hair clippers
Car battery charger
Soldering iron
Hot melt glue gun
Stapler
Phone chargers
DECT phone adaptor

And I am sure I have missed quite a few.

I've copied the list and removed all those which are computer or AV.


Lamp (11W CFL)

If that's on it's own, is the size of the plug a problem? Or is it used
with your computer, etc?

Shaver

Mains ones already have a small plug. If rechargeable, usually a wall
wart.


Bosch drill battery charger
Makita battery charger

Since these aren't fixed, wouldn't having to have two plugs be a pain?

Desk fan
Lamp (20W halogen)

Kitchen hand mixer

When in a kitchen is the size of the plug a problem? You need a given
amount of work space to use these things so plenty of room for adequate
sockets.

Torch charger


Hair clippers
Car battery charger
Soldering iron
Hot melt glue gun
Stapler
Phone chargers
DECT phone adaptor

What comes out of this is you probably have too many toys for your
available sockets and or living space. Making sockets and plugs smaller
won't alter this. ;-)

--
*Why is a boxing ring square?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Rod wrote:
wrote:
Appelation Controlee wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:14:47 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 06:37:48 +0000, Appelation Controlee wrote:

As it is, we have to continue using plugs capable of serving a 3-bar
electric fire (must be pretty rare these days)
Er, our kettle is 3kW, we have a 2kW fan heater and an oil filled
convector, I forget what that is rated at. The schuko is rated 16A so I'm
not quite sure what your argument is.
That bit was an aside, and poorly thought through - thanks for the
correction. :-)
Most appliances, though, don't load the connection anywhere near its
capability, but we still have to put up with a bloody great claw on the end
of the lead. In the case of portable appliances, this is a bit of a PITA.

I _do_ understand the implications of fuse positioning in the circuit.
So you do know the cost implications of the UK changing to schuko which is
why it isn't going to happen, nothing to do with zealots.
Yes obviously, but most contrary arguments in the past have centred on the
fact that shuko plugs don't incorporate a fuse, thus leaving open the
possibility ... etc., etc...


There is a solution, one thats fully compatible, safe, and doesnt
cause any extra expense. Its to use fused plugs that are a 2 pin
version of today's bs1363 guage. New sockets would have 2 or 4 extra
holes per socket, enabling the pluggng of one 3 pin device or 2/3 2
pin devices. A 3 pin plug could still be inserted into every socket in
the land.

A note about shutters: new 2 pin plugs would not go into old sockets
that use an earth operated shutter, as many do. Existing sockets that
use a L&N operated shutter would be fine, and new sockets would need
to use this type of shutter.


NT

Understood. But what we all really want is any new standard to permit
use across frontiers as well.

We could have a 13A socket (as now) with a secondary socket
incorporated. The Europeans could have a Schuko-style (or similar, as
required), with the same secondary socket. And the US could have their
standard with a secondary socket.

The socket would have an extra connection to permit devices to be wired
for 110-only or 230-only or both.

(If this could be merged with power over Ethernet, we would be laughing!)

Between now and having such sockets fitted, a neat adaptor could be used
- appropriate to each market. (Multi-way adaptors should also be
possible.)

So lets get this right - youre suggesting going back to the old way of
having 2 incompatible plug types plus adaptors. Anyone who lived with
that will know why its a dud idea.

Then youre suggesting mixed 110/230 wiring, which adds a whole pile of
expense, will kill lots of appliances, and simply isnt necessary for
99% of the population.

This is all way too high a price to pay for harmonisation with
mainland europe.


NT

On 27 Jan 2009 08:59:42 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
Distorted Vision writes:
We've just new chipboard floor boards fitted to the middle section of
trusses from gable to gable. Before that alot of the boards were
broken and they only extended about a quarter of the way along then a
little further with loose boards. Anyway there is just a single 100W
bulb in a pendant and its very inadequate now. I'm asking our
electrician to put four 4ft fluorescent tube lights up there. I was
wondering what the best manufacturer for them is. With it being in the
loft I wanted to get the best possible to avoid replacing eg if the
ballast goes.

In a loft for very occasional use, just use a cheap 4-pack from
one of the sheds, or from a wholesaler if he can match the price
(probably can't). Old magnetic ballasts hardly ever die (providing
you ignore the american 120V marketplace, where they often die).

Might want to think if you need any method to avoid leaving them
on accidentally.

The switch for mine is fused spur at the top of the ladder, so I can
operate it on the way out.
A cheap 40A shower pull-switch would be OK - has neon (unreliable) and
mechanical flag (less unreliable).
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

wrote:
Rod wrote:
wrote:
Appelation Controlee wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:14:47 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 06:37:48 +0000, Appelation Controlee wrote:

As it is, we have to continue using plugs capable of serving a 3-bar
electric fire (must be pretty rare these days)
Er, our kettle is 3kW, we have a 2kW fan heater and an oil filled
convector, I forget what that is rated at. The schuko is rated 16A so I'm
not quite sure what your argument is.
That bit was an aside, and poorly thought through - thanks for the
correction. :-)
Most appliances, though, don't load the connection anywhere near its
capability, but we still have to put up with a bloody great claw on the end
of the lead. In the case of portable appliances, this is a bit of a PITA.

I _do_ understand the implications of fuse positioning in the circuit.
So you do know the cost implications of the UK changing to schuko which is
why it isn't going to happen, nothing to do with zealots.
Yes obviously, but most contrary arguments in the past have centred on the
fact that shuko plugs don't incorporate a fuse, thus leaving open the
possibility ... etc., etc...

There is a solution, one thats fully compatible, safe, and doesnt
cause any extra expense. Its to use fused plugs that are a 2 pin
version of today's bs1363 guage. New sockets would have 2 or 4 extra
holes per socket, enabling the pluggng of one 3 pin device or 2/3 2
pin devices. A 3 pin plug could still be inserted into every socket in
the land.

A note about shutters: new 2 pin plugs would not go into old sockets
that use an earth operated shutter, as many do. Existing sockets that
use a L&N operated shutter would be fine, and new sockets would need
to use this type of shutter.


NT
Understood. But what we all really want is any new standard to permit
use across frontiers as well.

We could have a 13A socket (as now) with a secondary socket
incorporated. The Europeans could have a Schuko-style (or similar, as
required), with the same secondary socket. And the US could have their
standard with a secondary socket.

The socket would have an extra connection to permit devices to be wired
for 110-only or 230-only or both.

(If this could be merged with power over Ethernet, we would be laughing!)

Between now and having such sockets fitted, a neat adaptor could be used
- appropriate to each market. (Multi-way adaptors should also be
possible.)

So lets get this right - youre suggesting going back to the old way of
having 2 incompatible plug types plus adaptors. Anyone who lived with
that will know why its a dud idea.

Then youre suggesting mixed 110/230 wiring, which adds a whole pile of
expense, will kill lots of appliances, and simply isnt necessary for
99% of the population.

This is all way too high a price to pay for harmonisation with
mainland europe.


NT

I don't think that there is anywhere in mainland Europe that uses 110V,
is there?

110/230 mixed is *only* if wanted. That would only be used for things
like laptops. Basically, if the device doesn't care it can connect to
110 or 230; if it cares, it can connect to just the one.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Rod wrote:
I don't think that it is only computer and AV kit - though they probably
do predominate. Thinking about low power devices near me (but we have
yet to agree a definition of low power!):

Lamp (11W CFL)
Shaver
DVD player
Virgin Box
Monitors
External drives
Bosch drill battery charger
Makita battery charger
Mouse base stations
Desk fan
Lamp (20W halogen)
Kitchen hand mixer
Torch charger
Printer
Scanner (but that is happy on USB-only)
Hair clippers
Car battery charger
Soldering iron
Hot melt glue gun
Stapler
Phone chargers
DECT phone adaptor

And I am sure I have missed quite a few.

I've copied the list and removed all those which are computer or AV.


Lamp (11W CFL)

If that's on it's own, is the size of the plug a problem? Or is it used
with your computer, etc?

Shaver

Mains ones already have a small plug. If rechargeable, usually a wall
wart.


Bosch drill battery charger
Makita battery charger

Since these aren't fixed, wouldn't having to have two plugs be a pain?

Desk fan
Lamp (20W halogen)

Kitchen hand mixer

When in a kitchen is the size of the plug a problem? You need a given
amount of work space to use these things so plenty of room for adequate
sockets.

Torch charger


Hair clippers
Car battery charger
Soldering iron
Hot melt glue gun
Stapler
Phone chargers
DECT phone adaptor

What comes out of this is you probably have too many toys for your
available sockets and or living space. Making sockets and plugs smaller
won't alter this. ;-)

It seems inevitable that we either go for a second plug design (for low
power/universal access) or we do without. The cost in terms of some form
of adaptor (at least for an interim period) seems to me to be worth it.
Fully accepted that others will disagree.

The number of times I have cursed 13A plugs for their bulk, their big
sticky-out design, their weight, etc.! And the pain when I stand on the
prongs...

I accept that last comment!

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 20:42:35 +0000, Jason wrote:

I think it depends where you buy it. B&Q, for example, seem to squeeze
the manufacturers so that the same MK product from them is far inferior
to one from someone else (at a little more cost). Dimmer switches are a
case in point. I've had two dimmer switches of the exact same model
apart - one from B&Q and one from an independent. The heat sink was
smaller, and there were some surge protection components missing from
the B&Q model.

*Exact* same model number of the packaging? How about the bar code?

B&Q do seem to be getting quite adept at walking just down the legal side
of the line between illegal and legal. See the thread about kitchen unit
pricing. Also take a look at the Karcher pressure washers in B&Q, you
won't find them anywhere else or on the Karcher website. This gets 'em out
the price match promise as you can't get the same product anywhere else,
not illegal but not honourable IMHO.


Probably not the exact bar code, but definitely the same model number.

Mike Clarke wrote:
Jason wrote:

I think it depends where you buy it. B&Q, for example, seem to squeeze the
manufacturers so that the same MK product from them is far inferior to one
from someone else (at a little more cost). Dimmer switches are a case in
point. I've had two dimmer switches of the exact same model apart - one
from B&Q and one from an independent. The heat sink was smaller, and there
were some surge protection components missing from the B&Q model.

Could it be that MK have recently started making the same model to a lower
standard and you bought from B&Q more recently than the from the
independent shop? Even if you bought from the independent more recently
than from B&Q it's quite likely that an item from B&Q is newer because B&Q
probably have a faster stock turnover than the independents.

Yes, that is a possibility.

Wow that's alot of different discussions in this thread I'm struggling
keeping up. Anyway I was asking about fluorescent tube fittings. For
areas of heavy usage what is the best quality brands to use for the
batten fitting?

In article
,
Distorted Vision wrote:
Wow that's alot of different discussions in this thread I'm struggling
keeping up. Anyway I was asking about fluorescent tube fittings. For
areas of heavy usage what is the best quality brands to use for the
batten fitting?

That's a bit of a broad question. If you mean separate ballasts I've got
Osram high frequency ones which have been very reliable. But pricey.

--
*A journey of a thousand sites begins with a single click *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rod writes:
It seems inevitable that we either go for a second plug design (for low
power/universal access) or we do without. The cost in terms of some form
of adaptor (at least for an interim period) seems to me to be worth it.
Fully accepted that others will disagree.

Yes, everyone who's lived in a house wired with different sockets,
and that's one reason the 13A plug/socket was so readily accepted.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember (Andrew
Gabriel) saying something like:

Yes, everyone who's lived in a house wired with different sockets,
and that's one reason the 13A plug/socket was so readily accepted.

Exactly. Unless one lives in broom cupboard, I see no difficulty with
the size of current 13A UK sockets.

On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:33:17 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

Yes, everyone who's lived in a house wired with different sockets,
and that's one reason the 13A plug/socket was so readily accepted.

Agreed, mixed plug/socket sizes is a right PIAT.

Exactly. Unless one lives in broom cupboard, I see no difficulty with
the size of current 13A UK sockets.

The only real problem is when you have lots of low powered kit in one
place, like by the telly or computer. Then having a dozen or so things all
wanting a 13A socket to draw 10W is a bit annoying. Things with flexes can
be rewired to IEC but that doesn't help with wall warts.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

mixed plug/socket sizes is a right PIAT.

Pain In Anal Territory?

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:28:56 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

mixed plug/socket sizes is a right PIAT.

Pain In Anal Territory?

CEFJ

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:33:17 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

Yes, everyone who's lived in a house wired with different sockets,
and that's one reason the 13A plug/socket was so readily accepted.

Agreed, mixed plug/socket sizes is a right PIAT.

Exactly. Unless one lives in broom cupboard, I see no difficulty with
the size of current 13A UK sockets.

The only real problem is when you have lots of low powered kit in one
place, like by the telly or computer. Then having a dozen or so things all
wanting a 13A socket to draw 10W is a bit annoying. Things with flexes can
be rewired to IEC but that doesn't help with wall warts.

A small plug (which, as I have suggested, would become a standard part
of all new sockets) would not be the same level of problem as the 2/5/15
things we used to have. (I spent years at a boarding school with the
problems of different buildings having different sockets. 'Twas nasty.
But my suggestion could be achieved without the truly horrible side and
only a moderate level of inconvenience/use of adaptors.)

It would make sense for all sorts of reasons.

o Make it possible for all sorts of situations to provide mains
electricity to customers/visitors. E.g. trains, planes, road vehicles,
etc.) The small size socket would be much easier to incorporate into the
diverse locations than a full 13A faceplate.
o Many devices could have a neat plug stowage location. Our Miele
vacuum cleaner has such a space - but I think it is the only electrical
device we have that does. Even that looks as though it would more
comfortably accept a Schuko. This also serves to protect the plug.

The obvious alternative approach would be the use of IEC/kettle cables
(or similar). But we would end up with piles of cables to manage. IMHO,
a few adaptors are simpler and easier.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In article ,
Rod wrote:
Exactly. Unless one lives in broom cupboard, I see no difficulty with
the size of current 13A UK sockets.

The only real problem is when you have lots of low powered kit in one
place, like by the telly or computer. Then having a dozen or so things
all wanting a 13A socket to draw 10W is a bit annoying. Things with
flexes can be rewired to IEC but that doesn't help with wall warts.

A small plug (which, as I have suggested, would become a standard part
of all new sockets) would not be the same level of problem as the 2/5/15
things we used to have.

Then that wouldn't make the wall fittings any smaller. And increase the
price considerably. Of course you could then use a smaller trailing
splitter block - but then that option is open to you now. Although I
don't know how you'd get on with wall warts in the places where this
might save space - like at a computer.

--
*Few women admit their age; fewer men act it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.