My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live. The core has been
marked, (with red rather than brown tape, but that is another
issue!). Previous posts in this group seriously depricate this
practice - in my opinion with very good reason.
The question is though, can anyone point me at a specific regulation
that prohibits using a sleeved green/yellow cable as a live?
Note: this is a flexible cable so the 'earth' has the same CSA as the
other conductors.
I'd like to be able to throw this back at the plumbers with a definite
regulation to quote at them...
Mike

wrote:

My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live.

BS7671:2008 Regulation 514.4.2

"The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively
for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall
not be used for any other purpose."

coughed up some electrons that declared:

My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live.

Then he's not a proper sparky. You never EVER use green/yellow for anything
other than an earth/CPC. Andy's already quoted the regulation, but AFAIC
that's a reportable offence because all right thinking people expect G/Y to
be safe.

Should someone come along later, unwire it and put it back from one end
only, it would be quite easy for them to connect it back to an earth
terminal, possibly rendering some extraneous conductive part live.

Also - if he's used the CPC for live, is anything providing an earth to the
thing on the end of the cable?

The core has been
marked, (with red rather than brown tape, but that is another
issue!).

That's something I suppose, but it is still unacceptable.

I suggest you call the plumber, and ask why you shouldn't be phoning (most
probably) the NICEIC. That should concentrate his mind.

If he doesn't get over PDQ and correctly rectify the issue, then your
options would include:

If you have electricians name, it would be a case of phoning the NICEIC,
NAPIT and the rest of the half dozen scheme providers until someone finds
his name on their list. They'll take it from there.

Failing that, Building Control would be my next port of call. Even a non
sparky BCO should realise that's wrong, especially if you quote the
regulation at them. They have channels for following this up.

Trading Standards is another, but I think the BCO will be more use in the
first instance.

Normally I'm in favour of giving grace to genuine mistakes and keeping it
diplomatic, but this is a serious safety issue and, given he attempted to
re-identify the conductor, it goes beyond a mistake to pre-meditated
laziness. It's not hard to obtain multicore control cable.

Hopefully you won't have to get heavy handed, but you have some options if
you need them.

HTH

Tim

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:36:40 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

wrote:

My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live.

BS7671:2008 Regulation 514.4.2

"The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively
for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall
not be used for any other purpose."

That refers only to the colour, so if the wire is sleeved red or brown it
should be OK - until someone breaks in to it elsewhere!
I prefer red for switched Live as it identifies it.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

In article , PeterC
writes
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:36:40 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

wrote:

My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live.

BS7671:2008 Regulation 514.4.2

"The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively
for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall
not be used for any other purpose."

That refers only to the colour, so if the wire is sleeved red or brown it
should be OK - until someone breaks in to it elsewhere!
I prefer red for switched Live as it identifies it.

You are right to say that only refers to the colour but sleeving in
another colour does not make it ok. There is a separate requirement that
current carrying conductors require basic insulation on the conductor
and supplementary insulation (the sheath). Using a bare protective
conductor as a switched live (or neutral) will breach this. Sorry, no
access to regs to provide the cite, but it will be there somewhere.
--
fred
BBC3, ITV2/3/4, channels going to the DOGs

PeterC coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:36:40 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

wrote:

My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live.

BS7671:2008 Regulation 514.4.2

"The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively
for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall
not be used for any other purpose."

That refers only to the colour, so if the wire is sleeved red or brown it
should be OK - until someone breaks in to it elsewhere!
I prefer red for switched Live as it identifies it.

I must disagree Peter. The difference betwen this and sleeving a black or
blue as phase, is that black or blue are to be regarded as "live" at all
times anyway, even if they are a neutral. The consequences of wiring a
neutral conductor to phase is most often that something doesn't work, or a
short circuit which trips the breaker.

The CPC is a special case, because if someone breaks into it later (as you
mention) or the sleeve falls off, then the consequences of mis-identifying
it are "unsafe", rather than "doesn't work".

Cheers

Tim

In article
,
wrote:
My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live. The core has been
marked, (with red rather than brown tape, but that is another
issue!). Previous posts in this group seriously depricate this
practice - in my opinion with very good reason.
The question is though, can anyone point me at a specific regulation
that prohibits using a sleeved green/yellow cable as a live?
Note: this is a flexible cable so the 'earth' has the same CSA as the
other conductors.
I'd like to be able to throw this back at the plumbers with a definite
regulation to quote at them...

Others have given the appropriate regs - but it really does show a lack of
pride in workmanship and or penny pinching given that suitable flex is so
easily available.

--
*A nest isn't empty until all their stuff is out of the attic

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Jan 23, 10:02*am, fred wrote:
In article , PeterC
writes



On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:36:40 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

wrote:

My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live.

BS7671:2008 Regulation 514.4.2

"The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively
for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall
not be used for any other purpose."

That refers only to the colour, so if the wire is sleeved red or brown it
should be OK - until someone breaks in to it elsewhere!
I prefer red for switched Live as it identifies it.

You are right to say that only refers to the colour but sleeving in
another colour does not make it ok. There is a separate requirement that
current carrying conductors require basic insulation on the conductor
and supplementary insulation (the sheath). Using a bare protective
conductor as a switched live (or neutral) will breach this.

What relevance does that have to the OPs question? The clue is there
if youread it properly.

MBQ

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 04:14:54 -0800, Man at B&Q wrote:

On Jan 23, 10:02*am, fred wrote:
In article , PeterC
writes



On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:36:40 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

wrote:

My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live.

BS7671:2008 Regulation 514.4.2

"The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively
for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall
not be used for any other purpose."

That refers only to the colour, so if the wire is sleeved red or brown it
should be OK - until someone breaks in to it elsewhere!
I prefer red for switched Live as it identifies it.

You are right to say that only refers to the colour but sleeving in
another colour does not make it ok. There is a separate requirement that
current carrying conductors require basic insulation on the conductor
and supplementary insulation (the sheath). Using a bare protective
conductor as a switched live (or neutral) will breach this.

What relevance does that have to the OPs question? The clue is there
if youread it properly.

MBQ

=========================================
I'm a bit confused by the OP's post. Can you actually buy three core cable
with the earth wire separately insulated in the same way as the other two
cores are insulated? I understood Fred's post to indicate that the earth
is always a bare conductor in twin and earth cable whereas the OP's post
suggests that his cable includes a fully insulated green/yellow earth.

Cic.

--
==========================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
==========================================

Cicero coughed up some electrons that declared:

=========================================
I'm a bit confused by the OP's post. Can you actually buy three core cable
with the earth wire separately insulated in the same way as the other two
cores are insulated? I understood Fred's post to indicate that the earth
is always a bare conductor in twin and earth cable whereas the OP's post
suggests that his cable includes a fully insulated green/yellow earth.

It's probably flex, based on the fact that heating is involved. I suspect it
the flex going up to either the hall stat which probably wants E, L,
Switched-L *and* neutral for the bias heater.

Or it could be the flex going to the programmer and the bloke only had 4
core, when he needed 5 or whatever.

Cheers

Tim

In article ,
Tim S writes:
coughed up some electrons that declared:

My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live.

Then he's not a proper sparky. You never EVER use green/yellow for anything
other than an earth/CPC. Andy's already quoted the regulation, but AFAIC
that's a reportable offence because all right thinking people expect G/Y to
be safe.

I agree it's not allowed and is bad practise, but it is
extremely common, particularly in heating circuits, and
there are clearly a large number of electricians who
don't think there's anything wrong with it.

I came across it in some streetlamp circuits which would
have been professionally wired too -- standard 3-core had
been used to the NEMA photocell socket, with the earth
used for the switched live return in all of them.

Should someone come along later, unwire it and put it back from one end
only, it would be quite easy for them to connect it back to an earth
terminal, possibly rendering some extraneous conductive part live.

Also - if he's used the CPC for live, is anything providing an earth to the
thing on the end of the cable?

Also, if there's no earth in the cable, accidentally slicing
through the cable might not blow a fuse/RCD and disconnect the
supply.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:07:15 +0000, Tim S wrote:

Cicero coughed up some electrons that declared:

=========================================
I'm a bit confused by the OP's post. Can you actually buy three core cable
with the earth wire separately insulated in the same way as the other two
cores are insulated? I understood Fred's post to indicate that the earth
is always a bare conductor in twin and earth cable whereas the OP's post
suggests that his cable includes a fully insulated green/yellow earth.

It's probably flex, based on the fact that heating is involved. I suspect it
the flex going up to either the hall stat which probably wants E, L,
Switched-L *and* neutral for the bias heater.

Or it could be the flex going to the programmer and the bloke only had 4
core, when he needed 5 or whatever.

Cheers

Tim
=========================================
Thanks, that explains it.

Cic.
--
==========================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
==========================================

In article
, Man
at B&Q writes
On Jan 23, 10:02*am, fred wrote:
In article , PeterC
writes



On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:36:40 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

wrote:

My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live.

BS7671:2008 Regulation 514.4.2

"The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively
for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall
not be used for any other purpose."

That refers only to the colour, so if the wire is sleeved red or brown it
should be OK - until someone breaks in to it elsewhere!
I prefer red for switched Live as it identifies it.

You are right to say that only refers to the colour but sleeving in
another colour does not make it ok. There is a separate requirement that
current carrying conductors require basic insulation on the conductor
and supplementary insulation (the sheath). Using a bare protective
conductor as a switched live (or neutral) will breach this.

What relevance does that have to the OPs question? The clue is there
if youread it properly.

Ah, there speaks a man who never misread a question and has never made a
mistake, I bow before your perfection.

My mistake acknowledged, Andy Burns answer is true and complete.
--
fred
BBC3, ITV2/3/4, channels going to the DOGs

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim S writes:
coughed up some electrons that declared:

My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live.

Then he's not a proper sparky. You never EVER use green/yellow for
anything
other than an earth/CPC. Andy's already quoted the regulation, but AFAIC
that's a reportable offence because all right thinking people expect G/Y
to
be safe.

I agree it's not allowed and is bad practise, but it is
extremely common, particularly in heating circuits, and
there are clearly a large number of electricians who
don't think there's anything wrong with it.

I came across it in some streetlamp circuits which would
have been professionally wired too -- standard 3-core had
been used to the NEMA photocell socket, with the earth
used for the switched live return in all of them.

Should someone come along later, unwire it and put it back from one end
only, it would be quite easy for them to connect it back to an earth
terminal, possibly rendering some extraneous conductive part live.

Also - if he's used the CPC for live, is anything providing an earth to
the
thing on the end of the cable?

Also, if there's no earth in the cable, accidentally slicing
through the cable might not blow a fuse/RCD and disconnect the
supply.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]


Clearly some confusion between "Cable" and "Flex".

If flex was used as seems likely then is this another error?

In article , Andy Burns
scribeth thus
wrote:

My plumbers sparky has installed my heating system, but has used the
green/yellow wire in one cable as a switched live.

BS7671:2008 Regulation 514.4.2

"The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively
for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall
not be used for any other purpose."

Bloody stupid old bodger!, what else has he bodged up?...

U should get someone else to put it right and deduct it from the
invoice!..

Wouldn't want him back!..

And what was all this part P for?...
--
Tony Sayer

John wrote:

Clearly some confusion between "Cable" and "Flex".

If flex was used as seems likely then is this another error?

"Flexible cable" was what he said.

Andy

Sorry for the confusion - It is flex!
The wiring in question is approx 2m length between the wiring centre
and the boiler. I guess the guy didn't have any multi-core cable and
so has used 2 x 3 cores instead.
One carries L/N/E from the wiring centre to the boiler. The other
carries SWITCHED LIVE to the boiler and L/N from the boiler to the
pump (via wiring centre). IIRC it is the pump live that is carried on
the green/yellow wire.
Incidentally the boiler manual is here; http://tinyurl.com/dcsy8q .
Page 34 shows the pump L & N fed from the boiler, but I can't see any
reason why the N couldn't be taken locally from the wiring centre...
or is there normally some reason why both L & N would need to be fed
from the boiler PCB?
Mike

In article
,
wrote:
he wiring in question is approx 2m length between the wiring centre
and the boiler. I guess the guy didn't have any multi-core cable and
so has used 2 x 3 cores instead.

Common plumber's trick when wiring boilers. Why buy two reels of cable
when one will do. And why change the habit of a lifetime. It works,
doesn't it? ;-(

--
*Why can't women put on mascara with their mouth closed?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:28:23 -0800, mike.peppert wrote:

Sorry for the confusion - It is flex! The wiring in question is approx
2m length between the wiring centre and the boiler. I guess the guy
didn't have any multi-core cable and so has used 2 x 3 cores instead.
One carries L/N/E from the wiring centre to the boiler. The other
carries SWITCHED LIVE to the boiler and L/N from the boiler to the pump
(via wiring centre). IIRC it is the pump live that is carried on the
green/yellow wire.
Incidentally the boiler manual is here; http://tinyurl.com/dcsy8q . Page
34 shows the pump L & N fed from the boiler, but I can't see any reason
why the N couldn't be taken locally from the wiring centre... or is
there normally some reason why both L & N would need to be fed from the
boiler PCB?
Mike

This bad practice is very very common. (50% of all installations?) Given
that the boiler has provision for more than one cable entry the installer
could have used a second flex to provide the extra signal.

Why should the good guys carry multi-core control cable around to do a
proper job when this guy thinks he can bend the rules. It's not as if he
had to do significant extra work to get it right.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:13:52 UTC, Ed Sirett
wrote:

This bad practice is very very common. (50% of all installations?) Given
that the boiler has provision for more than one cable entry the installer
could have used a second flex to provide the extra signal.

Why should the good guys carry multi-core control cable around to do a
proper job when this guy thinks he can bend the rules. It's not as if he
had to do significant extra work to get it right.

When we had our boiler replaced a while ago, I took the opportunity to
fix the rather bad electrics that were there before. By the time the guy
arrived to fit, I'd already downloaded and read the manual, and started
on the new permanent cabling.

The difficult bit was getting cable with the right rating and number of
cores. In the end I went to the local plumbers merchant, and even they
struggled. In the end they found me a 'reel end' and I got it for a
pound!

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:01:24 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:13:52 UTC, Ed Sirett
wrote:

This bad practice is very very common. (50% of all installations?)
Given that the boiler has provision for more than one cable entry the
installer could have used a second flex to provide the extra signal.

Why should the good guys carry multi-core control cable around to do a
proper job when this guy thinks he can bend the rules. It's not as if
he had to do significant extra work to get it right.

When we had our boiler replaced a while ago, I took the opportunity to
fix the rather bad electrics that were there before. By the time the guy
arrived to fit, I'd already downloaded and read the manual, and started
on the new permanent cabling.

The difficult bit was getting cable with the right rating and number of
cores. In the end I went to the local plumbers merchant, and even they
struggled. In the end they found me a 'reel end' and I got it for a
pound!

Both screwfix and tollstation do suitable flex.






--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

wrote in message
...
Sorry for the confusion - It is flex!
The wiring in question is approx 2m length between the wiring centre
and the boiler. I guess the guy didn't have any multi-core cable and
so has used 2 x 3 cores instead.
One carries L/N/E from the wiring centre to the boiler. The other
carries SWITCHED LIVE to the boiler and L/N from the boiler to the
pump (via wiring centre). IIRC it is the pump live that is carried on
the green/yellow wire.


Incidentally the boiler manual is here; http://tinyurl.com/dcsy8q .
Page 34 shows the pump L & N fed from the boiler, but I can't see any
reason why the N couldn't be taken locally from the wiring centre...
or is there normally some reason why both L & N would need to be fed
from the boiler PCB?
Mike

The neutral connection on the boiler for the pump is there for convenience.
A neutral may be taken from the wiring centre if you wish to do so.

Adam

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:32:09 UTC, Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:01:24 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:13:52 UTC, Ed Sirett
wrote:

This bad practice is very very common. (50% of all installations?)
Given that the boiler has provision for more than one cable entry the
installer could have used a second flex to provide the extra signal.

Why should the good guys carry multi-core control cable around to do a
proper job when this guy thinks he can bend the rules. It's not as if
he had to do significant extra work to get it right.

When we had our boiler replaced a while ago, I took the opportunity to
fix the rather bad electrics that were there before. By the time the guy
arrived to fit, I'd already downloaded and read the manual, and started
on the new permanent cabling.

The difficult bit was getting cable with the right rating and number of
cores. In the end I went to the local plumbers merchant, and even they
struggled. In the end they found me a 'reel end' and I got it for a
pound!

Both screwfix and tollstation do suitable flex.

Screwfix was a possibility...but the fact that I couldn't get it very
locally perhaps explains why the job is often bodged..

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

Tim S wrote:
Cicero coughed up some electrons that declared:

=========================================
I'm a bit confused by the OP's post. Can you actually buy three core cable
with the earth wire separately insulated in the same way as the other two
cores are insulated? I understood Fred's post to indicate that the earth
is always a bare conductor in twin and earth cable whereas the OP's post
suggests that his cable includes a fully insulated green/yellow earth.

It's probably flex, based on the fact that heating is involved. I suspect it
the flex going up to either the hall stat which probably wants E, L,
Switched-L *and* neutral for the bias heater.

Or it could be the flex going to the programmer and the bloke only had 4
core, when he needed 5 or whatever.

Most likely neutral, live, switched live (and we'll forget about earth).

-- JJ

On 24 Jan 2009 15:01:24 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

The difficult bit was getting cable with the right rating and number of
cores. In the end I went to the local plumbers merchant, and even they
struggled. In the end they found me a 'reel end' and I got it for a
pound!

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA0dot75F7.html has six cores
plus protective conductor. That should be fine for most household
systems. Unused cores can be terminated and left spare.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:46:49 UTC, David Hansen
wrote:

On 24 Jan 2009 15:01:24 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

The difficult bit was getting cable with the right rating and number of
cores. In the end I went to the local plumbers merchant, and even they
struggled. In the end they found me a 'reel end' and I got it for a
pound!

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA0dot75F7.html has six cores
plus protective conductor. That should be fine for most household
systems. Unused cores can be terminated and left spare.

Think I looked at that one, but nothing about being rated to 90 deg. C.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 25 Jan 2009 11:45:43 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA0dot75F7.html has six cores
plus protective conductor. That should be fine for most household
systems. Unused cores can be terminated and left spare.

Think I looked at that one, but nothing about being rated to 90 deg. C.

Simply terminate it near anything that may get hot and use suitable
cable from there to the hot bit.

I don't suppose that cowboys who use the protective conductor as a
live one bother about temperature ratings either, but there isn't a
rash of melted flex. Certainly none of the boilers or pumps which I
have used have ever been so hot where the supply wiring runs that
normal PVC covered cable would be in any danger of melting.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:12:03 UTC, David Hansen
wrote:

On 25 Jan 2009 11:45:43 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA0dot75F7.html has six cores
plus protective conductor. That should be fine for most household
systems. Unused cores can be terminated and left spare.

Think I looked at that one, but nothing about being rated to 90 deg. C.

Simply terminate it near anything that may get hot and use suitable
cable from there to the hot bit.

The thing was only a metre long. And I'd still need to source the cable
for the last bit. The spec said 90 deg. so that's what I used.

I don't suppose that cowboys who use the protective conductor as a
live one bother about temperature ratings either, but there isn't a
rash of melted flex. Certainly none of the boilers or pumps which I
have used have ever been so hot where the supply wiring runs that
normal PVC covered cable would be in any danger of melting.

So you'd ignore the recommendation in the boiler installation manual?

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA0dot75F7.html has six cores
plus protective conductor. That should be fine for most household
systems. Unused cores can be terminated and left spare.

Think I looked at that one, but nothing about being rated to 90 deg. C.

Don't think much needs high temperature cable - except perhaps an
immersion heater connection. The current everything else takes is low, and
PVC won't melt at the sort of ambient temps you'll find on boiler
connections.

--
*A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:19:44 UTC, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA0dot75F7.html has six cores
plus protective conductor. That should be fine for most household
systems. Unused cores can be terminated and left spare.

Think I looked at that one, but nothing about being rated to 90 deg. C.

Don't think much needs high temperature cable - except perhaps an
immersion heater connection. The current everything else takes is low, and
PVC won't melt at the sort of ambient temps you'll find on boiler
connections.

As I said, I was just doing it 'by the book'! The new boiler is a lot
cooler than the old one was in the same places, but that's what the book
says!

(and, after all, one of the reasons *I* did the electrics was to avoid
having any bodges (well, bodges that weren't mine!) done)

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 25 Jan 2009 12:18:57 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

The thing was only a metre long.

Then I wouldn't bother to use it.

I don't suppose that cowboys who use the protective conductor as a
live one bother about temperature ratings either, but there isn't a
rash of melted flex. Certainly none of the boilers or pumps which I
have used have ever been so hot where the supply wiring runs that
normal PVC covered cable would be in any danger of melting.

So you'd ignore the recommendation in the boiler installation manual?

Did I say that I would?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:46:49 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On 24 Jan 2009 15:01:24 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

The difficult bit was getting cable with the right rating and number of
cores. In the end I went to the local plumbers merchant, and even they
struggled. In the end they found me a 'reel end' and I got it for a
pound!

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA0dot75F7.html has six cores
plus protective conductor. That should be fine for most household
systems. Unused cores can be terminated and left spare.

While six cores plus cpc is suitable for Y plans - I've used it
myself, unfortunately you need seven plus cpc for S plans. I'm not
aware of any supplier of this.


--

In article ,
Mike wrote:
While six cores plus cpc is suitable for Y plans - I've used it
myself, unfortunately you need seven plus cpc for S plans. I'm not
aware of any supplier of this.

Nothing wrong with using multiple flexes - provided the earth wires remain
just that.

--
*If you ate pasta and anti-pasta, would you still be hungry?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Mike" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:46:49 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On 24 Jan 2009 15:01:24 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

The difficult bit was getting cable with the right rating and number of
cores. In the end I went to the local plumbers merchant, and even they
struggled. In the end they found me a 'reel end' and I got it for a
pound!

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA0dot75F7.html has six cores
plus protective conductor. That should be fine for most household
systems. Unused cores can be terminated and left spare.

While six cores plus cpc is suitable for Y plans - I've used it
myself, unfortunately you need seven plus cpc for S plans. I'm not
aware of any supplier of this.



I wire up S plans quite often and I have never needed 6 cores plus CPC.

Do not leave me guessing, why did you need more than 6 cores?

Adam

"David Hansen" wrote in message
news
On 24 Jan 2009 15:01:24 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

The difficult bit was getting cable with the right rating and number of
cores. In the end I went to the local plumbers merchant, and even they
struggled. In the end they found me a 'reel end' and I got it for a
pound!

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA0dot75F7.html has six cores
plus protective conductor. That should be fine for most household
systems. Unused cores can be terminated and left spare.


Best practice is to sleeve the spare cores with green/yellow and terminate
them to earth.

Adam

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 01:01:34 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Mike wrote:
While six cores plus cpc is suitable for Y plans - I've used it
myself, unfortunately you need seven plus cpc for S plans. I'm not
aware of any supplier of this.

Nothing wrong with using multiple flexes - provided the earth wires remain
just that.

I've done that with thermostat and programmer runs but the 6 core flex
with multiple colours simplifies installation and fault finding
immensely if you have a 10 or 12 way chock block/wiring centre close
to the boiler and another one in the airing cupboard/next to the
diverter valve and run the 6 core between the two and then 3 core flex
to the diverter/hot water thermostat/boiler/fused spur. No mixing up
of browns and blues and every core colour ties in with the standard Y
plan scheme. Thing is (and as someone who looked at it a few months
ago said) with all the cables neatly clipped it just looks too neat
for any spark associated with a CORGI to have installed it.

I dread looking at the CH wiring in my parents place. Wired by an
idiot who looped the boiler and pump T&E round the boiler and OH stat
capillaries! There is no colour coding whatsoever, no wiring diagram
either until I buzzed it all out - and despite it claiming to be a Y
plan there was an unconnected core that would enable the heating to
run independent of the hot water.


--

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:38:32 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:


"Mike" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:46:49 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On 24 Jan 2009 15:01:24 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

The difficult bit was getting cable with the right rating and number of
cores. In the end I went to the local plumbers merchant, and even they
struggled. In the end they found me a 'reel end' and I got it for a
pound!

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA0dot75F7.html has six cores
plus protective conductor. That should be fine for most household
systems. Unused cores can be terminated and left spare.

While six cores plus cpc is suitable for Y plans - I've used it
myself, unfortunately you need seven plus cpc for S plans. I'm not
aware of any supplier of this.



I wire up S plans quite often and I have never needed 6 cores plus CPC.

Do not leave me guessing, why did you need more than 6 cores?

From the standard Honeywell diagram

Really ****ty copy here
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/Schemes/s1.jpg

Terminal 1 Grey wire to both zone valves (common contact)
Terminal 2 Blue wire to both zone valve motors
Terminal 3 Green Yellow cpc to both zone valves
Terminal 5 Brown to heating zone valve motor
Terminal 6 Unspecified colour to cyl stat normally open
Terminal 8 Brown to cyl stat common and hot water zone valve motor
Terminal 10 Orange wire to both zone valves (Normally open contact)

I can't see any further scope for core sharing and so make that 6
cores plus cpc. (not the seven plus cpc I said)

Maybe it was 5 plus cpc for Y plan and 6 plus cpc for S plan and it
was the 6 plus cpc I couldn't find This would be around 8 or 9 years
ago I went round all the local electrical factors plus Newey and Eyre
and CEF.

I would have preferred to go S Plan because I had previously acquired
a large box of unused 2 port 22mm valves at an auction and the desire
to use a single cable rather than a hotch potch of T&E on a brand new
build mean that none of them got used and I had to go out and buy half
a dozen 3 port valves (it was a multiple holiday let installation)


--

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:38:32 GMT, ARWadsworth wrote:

I wire up S plans quite often and I have never needed 6 cores plus CPC.

Depends on how through you are being on the programmer to wiring center
connection. I can see 9 wires being used:

Supply (L N E)
CH (NO C NC)
HW (NO C NC)

One wouldn't normally need the two NO's in S Plan and the two C's could
share the L but you loose flexabilty at a later date by not having
everything back in the wiring center.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Mike" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:38:32 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:

I wire up S plans quite often and I have never needed 6 cores plus CPC.

Do not leave me guessing, why did you need more than 6 cores?

From the standard Honeywell diagram

Really ****ty copy here
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/Schemes/s1.jpg

Terminal 1 Grey wire to both zone valves (common contact)
Terminal 2 Blue wire to both zone valve motors
Terminal 3 Green Yellow cpc to both zone valves
Terminal 5 Brown to heating zone valve motor
Terminal 6 Unspecified colour to cyl stat normally open
Terminal 8 Brown to cyl stat common and hot water zone valve motor
Terminal 10 Orange wire to both zone valves (Normally open contact)

I can't see any further scope for core sharing and so make that 6
cores plus cpc. (not the seven plus cpc I said)

Maybe it was 5 plus cpc for Y plan and 6 plus cpc for S plan and it
was the 6 plus cpc I couldn't find This would be around 8 or 9 years
ago I went round all the local electrical factors plus Newey and Eyre
and CEF.

I would have preferred to go S Plan because I had previously acquired
a large box of unused 2 port 22mm valves at an auction and the desire
to use a single cable rather than a hotch potch of T&E on a brand new
build mean that none of them got used and I had to go out and buy half
a dozen 3 port valves (it was a multiple holiday let installation)


Interesting. I also have to fault find Y and S plans frequently so a setup
like yours would be nice to fault find on. I usually see T&E everywhere with
bits of flex etc

I keep 3, 4, 5 and 6 core flex on the van but the 6 core lasts for ages.

6 core (inc green/yellow as one of the cores) would be needed for both S and
Y plans with your method. ie one flex from the valves and the cylinder stat
wiring center down to a wiring center by the boiler.

I have never wired a system up in this way but it seems a reasonable and
logical way of doing things.

Cheers

Adam

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 00:02:07 +0000, Mike wrote:

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:46:49 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On 24 Jan 2009 15:01:24 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

The difficult bit was getting cable with the right rating and number of
cores. In the end I went to the local plumbers merchant, and even they
struggled. In the end they found me a 'reel end' and I got it for a
pound!

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA0dot75F7.html has six cores
plus protective conductor. That should be fine for most household
systems. Unused cores can be terminated and left spare.

While six cores plus cpc is suitable for Y plans - I've used it myself,
unfortunately you need seven plus cpc for S plans. I'm not aware of any
supplier of this.

Uh! I wire up all sorts of controls and have never needed more than 5+E.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html