Hello,

I have to line my chimney with a flue liner. I have pushed the
plastic outer liner up through the chimney and need climb up to trim
the excess and to fit the "cap" on the top. Do I need to use a
scaffold tower to do this? I thought you were not supposed to lean
ladders against chimneys in case they would not take the load, but I
can't find anything on the internet that says this, so I am wondering
if I have dreamt it?

I need to push the inner, steel, liner up the chimney but I thought if
I did that and left it poking out for a couple of days whilst I find
out about the ladder issue, I wondered whether it might rust? Am I
best to wait and push the steel liner up at the last minute or is it
quite weather resistant?

Thanks,
Stephen.

Stephen coughed up some electrons that declared:

Hello,

I have to line my chimney with a flue liner. I have pushed the
plastic outer liner up through the chimney and need climb up to trim
the excess and to fit the "cap" on the top. Do I need to use a
scaffold tower to do this? I thought you were not supposed to lean
ladders against chimneys in case they would not take the load, but I
can't find anything on the internet that says this, so I am wondering
if I have dreamt it?

Personally, I would have thought that if the chimney can't cope with a
ladder and a man leaning against it, then it's in a dangerous condition and
needs urgent attention anyway (wind loads in a gale are not insignificant).

I'm expecting to lean a ladder against mine and it's sticking out of the
roof by about 3m, so quite tall and dangly. Hadn't crossed my mind as a
problem, and now you've mentioned it, I'm still not feeling very worried.

But caution is good... BTW - is this a one or two storey building?

I need to push the inner, steel, liner up the chimney but I thought if
I did that and left it poking out for a couple of days whilst I find
out about the ladder issue, I wondered whether it might rust? Am I
best to wait and push the steel liner up at the last minute or is it
quite weather resistant?

Is it stainless steel? If so it's fine. If not, it's going to rust in
service anyway (flue gases contain water, plus rain ingress depending on
the cowl on top).

BTW - I'm intrigued about the plastic outer liner - what is this? Wouldn't
it melt or are the flue gases not very hot?

Cheers

Tim

Tim S coughed up some electrons that declared:

Stephen coughed up some electrons that declared:

Hello,

I have to line my chimney with a flue liner. I have pushed the
plastic outer liner up through the chimney and need climb up to trim
the excess and to fit the "cap" on the top. Do I need to use a
scaffold tower to do this? I thought you were not supposed to lean
ladders against chimneys in case they would not take the load, but I
can't find anything on the internet that says this, so I am wondering
if I have dreamt it?

Personally, I would have thought that if the chimney can't cope with a
ladder and a man leaning against it, then it's in a dangerous condition
and needs urgent attention anyway (wind loads in a gale are not
insignificant).

Incidentally, how big is this chimney - 1 pot, 2 pot, 8 pot?

Perhaps, thinking about it, a single pot 2m high one might be a bit thin and
dodgey, but my 2 pot chimneys are pretty substantial and the 8 pot ones
I've seen would probably cope with an elephant sitting on them.

Cheers

Tim

"Stephen" wrote in message
...
Hello,

I have to line my chimney with a flue liner. I have pushed the
plastic outer liner up through the chimney and need climb up to trim
the excess and to fit the "cap" on the top. Do I need to use a
scaffold tower to do this? I thought you were not supposed to lean
ladders against chimneys in case they would not take the load, but I
can't find anything on the internet that says this, so I am wondering
if I have dreamt it?

I need to push the inner, steel, liner up the chimney but I thought if
I did that and left it poking out for a couple of days whilst I find
out about the ladder issue, I wondered whether it might rust? Am I
best to wait and push the steel liner up at the last minute or is it
quite weather resistant?

Thanks,
Stephen.


Every instruction I have read about installing flue liners says that you
should feed them in from the top.

I did pull a 4" liner up my chimney which is at the end of the central ridge
that runs lengthways along my two storey house.

To do this I made a 4' by 2' trestle that sat on the roof. I used a flat
roof extension to my house to get the trestle in position.

I used a climbing rope and harness to secure myself.

A stainless steel liner can be left outside.

--
Michael Chare

On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:41:06 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Personally, I would have thought that if the chimney can't cope with a
ladder and a man leaning against it, then it's in a dangerous condition and
needs urgent attention anyway (wind loads in a gale are not insignificant).

Thanks for the reassurance. Looking out of the window, many people
have 10 foot tv aerials bolted to their chimneys, so as you say, they
must be quite substantial to support those in the wind.

But caution is good... BTW - is this a one or two storey building?

It's a normal two storey house (ground floor + first floor). It is a
single chimney, built for the boiler flue.

Is it stainless steel? If so it's fine. If not, it's going to rust in
service anyway (flue gases contain water, plus rain ingress depending on
the cowl on top).

BTW - I'm intrigued about the plastic outer liner - what is this? Wouldn't
it melt or are the flue gases not very hot?

It is a balanced flue, so there is the steel liner of smaller diameter
inside the plastic liner. The flue gases go up the steel liner. The
air that the boiler uses for combustion is sucked down the gap between
the plastic and the steel liners IYSWIM.

Because it is a condensing boiler the flue gases are not very hot, so
melting is not an issue. Because it is a condensing boiler, there will
be condensate on the liner, so you are right, the liner must not
susceptible to rust.

However, I am sure there was a conventional flue kit which had just
one liner and I have a feeling that was plastic. If so, perhaps the
flue gases cool to a safe level before they reach that far (they have
to go through metal pieces first) or perhaps the plastic has a high
melting point? I honestly don't know.

To answer someone else's post, I think the instructions mentioned
dropping the liner rather than pushing it up but there was no mention
of anything being mandatory. I suppose that dropping it in has the
advantage that gravity is helping you, not working against you. I
figured that pushing the liners up reduced the risks of working at
height. Six metre liners at the top of a ladder is not for the faint
hearted! If I had been cleverer, I might have trimmed the liners to
length at the bottom rather than having to do so at the top!

There is a requirement that the steel liner is laid in one direction
but as long as it points that way, I can't see that it matters if it
goes top down or bottom up.

Thanks,
Stephen.

Stephen coughed up some electrons that declared:


It's a normal two storey house (ground floor + first floor). It is a
single chimney, built for the boiler flue.

I know the type - house I grew up in had one of these.

Perhaps be a little cautious then, and don't prop the ladder right against
the top? when you first mentioned chimneys, I had my chimneys in my mind,
which are very solid.

I think you should wait around for a bit and see if anyone else has an
opinion before betting your life on it.

Is it projecting up from one side of the building, because that might offer
other means of access (maybe a hireable tower)? How high does it project
above the bit of roof its coming through?

Is it stainless steel? If so it's fine. If not, it's going to rust in
service anyway (flue gases contain water, plus rain ingress depending on
the cowl on top).

BTW - I'm intrigued about the plastic outer liner - what is this? Wouldn't
it melt or are the flue gases not very hot?

It is a balanced flue, so there is the steel liner of smaller diameter
inside the plastic liner. The flue gases go up the steel liner. The
air that the boiler uses for combustion is sucked down the gap between
the plastic and the steel liners IYSWIM.

Ah, I see. Not come across these. I've been looking at stainless liners for
a log burner, so not balanced but potentially very hot.

Because it is a condensing boiler the flue gases are not very hot, so
melting is not an issue. Because it is a condensing boiler, there will
be condensate on the liner, so you are right, the liner must not
susceptible to rust.

However, I am sure there was a conventional flue kit which had just
one liner and I have a feeling that was plastic. If so, perhaps the
flue gases cool to a safe level before they reach that far (they have
to go through metal pieces first) or perhaps the plastic has a high
melting point? I honestly don't know.

In theory, if teh boiler is in condensing mode, the gasses must be 100C.

To answer someone else's post, I think the instructions mentioned
dropping the liner rather than pushing it up but there was no mention
of anything being mandatory. I suppose that dropping it in has the
advantage that gravity is helping you, not working against you. I
figured that pushing the liners up reduced the risks of working at
height. Six metre liners at the top of a ladder is not for the faint
hearted! If I had been cleverer, I might have trimmed the liners to
length at the bottom rather than having to do so at the top!

One of mine is accessible from the top of the dormer flat roof, so that's
easy to drop a liner down. The other is pretty much going to have to be
done off the top of a 9m ladder.

There is a requirement that the steel liner is laid in one direction
but as long as it points that way, I can't see that it matters if it
goes top down or bottom up.


No I can't either.

Cheers

Tim

In article , Stephen
writes
On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:41:06 +0100, Tim S wrote:

It is a balanced flue, so there is the steel liner of smaller diameter
inside the plastic liner. The flue gases go up the steel liner. The
air that the boiler uses for combustion is sucked down the gap between
the plastic and the steel liners IYSWIM.

Interesting stuff, is the liner boiler specific? If so, which boiler.

As another has said, feeding from the top is good for fitting a liner,
any strenuous work is done by the person downstairs and the person on
top is just there to guide the liner in, so less risk of throwing
yourself off balance. You can also, depending on type, pre-assemble the
flue terminal to minimise the rooftop work.

Take whatever precautions you can, explore the chimney stack to check it
is sound, tie the ladder to the stack and then loop a safety rope from
yourself to the stack or to the ladder, not necessarily something that
will arrest a serious fall, just something to stop an off balance moment
becoming a fall.
--
fred
BBC3, ITV2/3/4, channels going to the DOGs

On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:12:52 +0100, fred wrote:

Interesting stuff, is the liner boiler specific? If so, which boiler.

This one is but I think there might be generic liners available too. I
bought a Grant liner kit to fit to a Grant boiler. I know other
plumbers who quoted mentioned buying liners specific to the brand of
boiler they wanted to install.

As another has said, feeding from the top is good for fitting a liner,
any strenuous work is done by the person downstairs and the person on
top is just there to guide the liner in, so less risk of throwing
yourself off balance.

I'm not sure about this. It's still strenuous to carry a 6 metre plus
liner to chimney height and the person on the top then has to push it
down far enough for the person at the bottom to reach, before the
person at the bottom can take over the pulling.

I'll wait for a very still day and then go explore the chimney.

Thanks,
Stephen.

"Stephen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:12:52 +0100, fred wrote:

Interesting stuff, is the liner boiler specific? If so, which boiler.

This one is but I think there might be generic liners available too. I
bought a Grant liner kit to fit to a Grant boiler. I know other
plumbers who quoted mentioned buying liners specific to the brand of
boiler they wanted to install.

As another has said, feeding from the top is good for fitting a liner,
any strenuous work is done by the person downstairs and the person on
top is just there to guide the liner in, so less risk of throwing
yourself off balance.

I'm not sure about this. It's still strenuous to carry a 6 metre plus
liner to chimney height and the person on the top then has to push it
down far enough for the person at the bottom to reach, before the
person at the bottom can take over the pulling.

Unroll on ground, attach rope to end.
Pull up to chimney after climbing there
Drop rope down chimney (with weight) to person #2
Person #2 pulls while you feed up and over.

You should only be guiding and wiggling up top and instructing person #2
when to pull.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not

"Stephen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:12:52 +0100, fred wrote:

Interesting stuff, is the liner boiler specific? If so, which boiler.

This one is but I think there might be generic liners available too. I
bought a Grant liner kit to fit to a Grant boiler. I know other
plumbers who quoted mentioned buying liners specific to the brand of
boiler they wanted to install.

As another has said, feeding from the top is good for fitting a liner,
any strenuous work is done by the person downstairs and the person on
top is just there to guide the liner in, so less risk of throwing
yourself off balance.

I'm not sure about this. It's still strenuous to carry a 6 metre plus
liner to chimney height and the person on the top then has to push it
down far enough for the person at the bottom to reach, before the
person at the bottom can take over the pulling.

I'll wait for a very still day and then go explore the chimney.

Thanks,
Stephen.

That could explain why it's the *norm* to drop a weighted rope down the
chimney (tied to the liner of course) ;-)

Don.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:58:56 +0100, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:

Unroll on ground, attach rope to end.
Pull up to chimney after climbing there
Drop rope down chimney (with weight) to person #2
Person #2 pulls while you feed up and over.

You should only be guiding and wiggling up top and instructing person #2
when to pull.

Why doesn't it say that in the instructions? That's clearly much
easier than someone carrying it over their shoulder up a ladder and
pushing it down the chimney, as I had imagined.

"Stephen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:58:56 +0100, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:

Unroll on ground, attach rope to end.
Pull up to chimney after climbing there
Drop rope down chimney (with weight) to person #2
Person #2 pulls while you feed up and over.

You should only be guiding and wiggling up top and instructing person #2
when to pull.

Why doesn't it say that in the instructions? That's clearly much
easier than someone carrying it over their shoulder up a ladder and
pushing it down the chimney, as I had imagined.




Deep **** and very messy.


Mick

On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:30:44 GMT, Stephen wrote:

Unroll on ground, attach rope to end. Pull up to chimney after climbing
there Drop rope down chimney (with weight) to person #2 Person #2 pulls
while you feed up and over.

You should only be guiding and wiggling up top and instructing person
#2 when to pull.

Why doesn't it say that in the instructions? That's clearly much
easier than someone carrying it over their shoulder up a ladder and
pushing it down the chimney, as I had imagined.

Does each sheet of toilet paper in your house have instructions? Apply a
bit of thought and common sense man!

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:40:36 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Apply a
bit of thought and common sense man!

Is there a smiley missing from that? I did apply common sense and I
pushed it up the chimney so I didn't need any ropes, weights, ladders,
or helpers! I've never done it before so I think I did a pretty good
job. I can't be expected to know how to do everything first time;
that's why I came here to ask and learn.

In message , Stephen
writes
On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:40:36 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Apply a
bit of thought and common sense man!

Is there a smiley missing from that? I did apply common sense and I
pushed it up the chimney so I didn't need any ropes, weights, ladders,
or helpers! I've never done it before so I think I did a pretty good
job. I can't be expected to know how to do everything first time;
that's why I came here to ask and learn.

Following on from the last sentence.... has anyone any experience of
fitting a flue liner together with an insulating sleeve?

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In message , AJH
writes
On Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:31:57 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

Following on from the last sentence.... has anyone any experience of
fitting a flue liner together with an insulating sleeve?

I've only come across that with pre assembled ss sections of insulated
flue for wood fires, normally assembled section by section on an
outside wall. The insulation is a fragile foamed mineral cylinder
loose between the two ss pipes.

There is a description of the operation on the www.stovesonline.co.uk
site.

I vaguely gathered that it is necessary to insulate the liner.
Presumably to maintain the draught and reduce condensation.

I was curious to know if it can be done without elaborate scaffolding.
I suppose the fork lift would reach over the gutter on my roof so
handling the liner and insulating sleeve might not be that difficult.

Boiler stoves are now on 16 week delivery times:-(

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

I vaguely gathered that it is necessary to insulate the liner.
Presumably to maintain the draught and reduce condensation.

That's right, for efficiency you want to extract as much heat from the
combustion as possible before the flue gases enter the chimney, then you
want these gases not to lose temperature in the chimney. Typically the
temperature at the bottom will be around 160C and you still want it above
the dew point of water and any other vapours at the top, say 120 with a
clean burning fire, otherwise the condensate is acidic and can eat ss.

I was curious to know if it can be done without elaborate scaffolding.
I suppose the fork lift would reach over the gutter on my roof so
handling the liner and insulating sleeve might not be that difficult.

I don't know how straight your chimney is. I must admit I would go for the
904 double skin and simply pour vermiculite or perlite after the register
plate is fixed. My reasoning is that where the liner touches the wall of
the chimney is insignificant compared with the bits the in contact with a
decent width of insulation, I am assuming a 9" (old units) chimney and
150mm liner. This all assumes a good sealing at the register plate and
cowl.

AJH

In message , andrew
writes
I was curious to know if it can be done without elaborate scaffolding.
I suppose the fork lift would reach over the gutter on my roof so
handling the liner and insulating sleeve might not be that difficult.

I don't know how straight your chimney is. I must admit I would go for the
904 double skin and simply pour vermiculite or perlite after the register
plate is fixed. My reasoning is that where the liner touches the wall of
the chimney is insignificant compared with the bits the in contact with a
decent width of insulation, I am assuming a 9" (old units) chimney and
150mm liner. This all assumes a good sealing at the register plate and
cowl.

Straight!

Somebody borrowed my roof ladder but, in even older units, the flue is 1
brick x 11/2 bricks so 9"x131/2". For a 150mm liner, this is rather more
fill than I care to carry up a ladder:-)

These are Victorian flues constructed in soft red brick and probably
intended for some sort of coal burning range. My mother had a small
Jotul burning Elm when there were plenty of diseased trees about. There
is bound to be a lot of tar condensed and soaked into the brickwork so I
am keen to avoid a hot liner touching anything.

regards
--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

Straight!

Shouldn't be a problem with double skinned sections then, if your wallet can
stand it.

Somebody borrowed my roof ladder but, in even older units, the flue is 1
brick x 11/2 bricks so 9"x131/2". For a 150mm liner, this is rather more
fill than I care to carry up a ladder:-)

Looks like 4 bags with a total weight of 30kg then assuming 6m between
register plate and cowl base.

These are Victorian flues constructed in soft red brick and probably
intended for some sort of coal burning range. My mother had a small
Jotul burning Elm when there were plenty of diseased trees about. There
is bound to be a lot of tar condensed and soaked into the brickwork so I
am keen to avoid a hot liner touching anything.

I doubt heat will affect this, it's more a problem when moisture gets in
and a tarry acid then percolates through the brickwork.

AJH

In message , andrew
writes
Tim Lamb wrote:

Straight!

Shouldn't be a problem with double skinned sections then, if your wallet can
stand it.

Somebody borrowed my roof ladder but, in even older units, the flue is 1
brick x 11/2 bricks so 9"x131/2". For a 150mm liner, this is rather more
fill than I care to carry up a ladder:-)

Looks like 4 bags with a total weight of 30kg then assuming 6m between
register plate and cowl base.

Is that all? The ladder is back so I'd better get up there and check!

Lifting the barn roof is at the tricky stage: one side supported on
acrows and the other on 5 day old brickwork. I have taken the precaution
of fitting a couple of 4" x 2" struts and strapping the wall plate to a
sound part of the old wall.

These are Victorian flues constructed in soft red brick and probably
intended for some sort of coal burning range. My mother had a small
Jotul burning Elm when there were plenty of diseased trees about. There
is bound to be a lot of tar condensed and soaked into the brickwork so I
am keen to avoid a hot liner touching anything.

I doubt heat will affect this, it's more a problem when moisture gets in
and a tarry acid then percolates through the brickwork.

Ah. One of the two parallel flues is sealed off. Probably with slate and
no vents. Must get the barn done first.

regards
--
Tim Lamb