So last night, I came to fit the bog to my daughter's bathroom - you
remember, the Barcelona whose bag of bits had been missing, and were
replaced by the erk in the shop nicking a set from another box on the shelf.

My son-in-law had done a nice job of fitting the syphon unit, and the inlet
float unit, with a wipe of silicon rubber here and there, so we were all
ready to go. When I came to secure the pan down to the floor, the screw
holes went straight in, parallel to the floor, so there was no way to put
screws straight down into the floor. I ended up screwing a block of wood to
the floor, and then screwing horizontally into that, which has not given
what I would consider to be the 'normal' solid fix. The bottom of the pan is
not particularly straight, so there is some movement when it is sat on. Any
thoughts on that part ?

Anyway, we then went on to fit the cistern and connect up the water. All of
that went without problem, and when the water was turned back on, it all
started to fill with no leaks. I gave it a test flush with it about 3/4
full, and that was fine, so I let it fill again, and it filled, and filled
and filled .... No sign of it cutting off, even though the float was fully
up. So, cut the water again, and removed the valve cover / float arm
attachment point. No diaphragm in there ...

Son-in-law then comes back with one in his hand. "Is this it?" he says. The
instructions claim that this is a spare, so where was the original? I put it
in without looking too closely at the rest of the assembly, and screwed back
up. Water back on and filling, I lifted the float. No sign of even the
slightest reduction in water. So out it comes again for a closer inspection,
and it is at this point that I notice that the float arm, when it comes up,
pushes on a solid plastic pin at the back of the valve. This part of the
valve fits solidly onto the front of the valve assembly, and is then firmly
fixed there by the screw-up collar, so cannot move itself. In every valve of
this type that I've seen, that pin which is solidly part of the moulding on
this one, is a moving pin, which pushes on the diaphragm to close the water
off, when the float rises and the arm pushes on it. Interestingly, the
'spare' diaphragm also had a neat hole in its centre, as though it was meant
to loacate over something. It does actually fit exactly over a raised lip
around the removable part of the valve with the solid pin.

Trust me, nothing does, or can move on this valve, as a result of the float
rising. Am I missing something here ? Apparently, even the replacement bag
of bits that my daughter was provided with the first time, was open, so
maybe that doesn't bode well for the contents ... She's off back down there
after work today to demand an unopened bag from the exact same model bog. I
don't fancy the chances of anyone there who crosses her on this one. She is
mad enough to start screaming and shouting at the store manager now :-)

Arfa

In article ,
"Arfa Daily" writes:
Son-in-law then comes back with one in his hand. "Is this it?" he says. The
instructions claim that this is a spare, so where was the original? I put it
in without looking too closely at the rest of the assembly, and screwed back
up. Water back on and filling, I lifted the float. No sign of even the
slightest reduction in water. So out it comes again for a closer inspection,
and it is at this point that I notice that the float arm, when it comes up,
pushes on a solid plastic pin at the back of the valve. This part of the
valve fits solidly onto the front of the valve assembly, and is then firmly
fixed there by the screw-up collar, so cannot move itself. In every valve of
this type that I've seen, that pin which is solidly part of the moulding on
this one, is a moving pin, which pushes on the diaphragm to close the water
off, when the float rises and the arm pushes on it. Interestingly, the
'spare' diaphragm also had a neat hole in its centre, as though it was meant
to loacate over something. It does actually fit exactly over a raised lip
around the removable part of the valve with the solid pin.

I don't have one in front of me to check, but these valves
actually use the mains water pressure to seal off, not pressure
from the float. That tiny hole is part of the method for applying
mains pressure to shut off the inlet. IIRC, the float pressure
just needs to seal that tiny hole.

Trust me, nothing does, or can move on this valve, as a result of the float
rising. Am I missing something here ? Apparently, even the replacement bag
of bits that my daughter was provided with the first time, was open, so
maybe that doesn't bode well for the contents ... She's off back down there
after work today to demand an unopened bag from the exact same model bog. I
don't fancy the chances of anyone there who crosses her on this one. She is
mad enough to start screaming and shouting at the store manager now :-)

I would just buy a fluidmaster valve, and chuck the supplied one.
That's what I do in any case when the original one fails.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

snip

I don't have one in front of me to check, but these valves
actually use the mains water pressure to seal off, not pressure
from the float. That tiny hole is part of the method for applying
mains pressure to shut off the inlet. IIRC, the float pressure
just needs to seal that tiny hole.

OK, that sounds reasonable, so there must be something wrong with the way
this one has been made, as the float moves nothing at all other than itself,
and the arm attached to it.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
So last night, I came to fit the bog to my daughter's bathroom - you
remember, the Barcelona whose bag of bits had been missing, and were
replaced by the erk in the shop nicking a set from another box on the
shelf.

My son-in-law had done a nice job of fitting the syphon unit, and the
inlet float unit, with a wipe of silicon rubber here and there, so we were
all ready to go. When I came to secure the pan down to the floor, the
screw holes went straight in, parallel to the floor, so there was no way
to put screws straight down into the floor. I ended up screwing a block of
wood to the floor, and then screwing horizontally into that, which has not
given what I would consider to be the 'normal' solid fix. The bottom of
the pan is not particularly straight, so there is some movement when it is
sat on. Any thoughts on that part ?

Yes. There should be two plastic fitments. They are L shaped, the base
screws to the floor and the rising part has the form of a rectangular area
predrilled with an array of holes. This fits just inside the edge of the pan
base and, once the pan is in place you screw into the nearest hole. The
riser is angled a bit so you are pulling the pan down to a certain extent. I
have these on mine and they work well. I would imagine the wood block you
have would be an adequate replecement but I would angle the screws down a
little.


Anyway, we then went on to fit the cistern and connect up the water. All
of that went without problem, and when the water was turned back on, it
all started to fill with no leaks. I gave it a test flush with it about
3/4 full, and that was fine, so I let it fill again, and it filled, and
filled and filled .... No sign of it cutting off, even though the float
was fully up. So, cut the water again, and removed the valve cover / float
arm attachment point. No diaphragm in there ...

Difficult to tell without looking but the Torbeck type valves operate
differently. You might be better just buying a new one from B&Q - they
aren't that expensive!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...


"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
So last night, I came to fit the bog to my daughter's bathroom - you
remember, the Barcelona whose bag of bits had been missing, and were
replaced by the erk in the shop nicking a set from another box on the
shelf.

My son-in-law had done a nice job of fitting the syphon unit, and the
inlet float unit, with a wipe of silicon rubber here and there, so we
were all ready to go. When I came to secure the pan down to the floor,
the screw holes went straight in, parallel to the floor, so there was no
way to put screws straight down into the floor. I ended up screwing a
block of wood to the floor, and then screwing horizontally into that,
which has not given what I would consider to be the 'normal' solid fix.
The bottom of the pan is not particularly straight, so there is some
movement when it is sat on. Any thoughts on that part ?

Yes. There should be two plastic fitments. They are L shaped, the base
screws to the floor and the rising part has the form of a rectangular area
predrilled with an array of holes. This fits just inside the edge of the
pan base and, once the pan is in place you screw into the nearest hole.
The riser is angled a bit so you are pulling the pan down to a certain
extent. I have these on mine and they work well. I would imagine the wood
block you have would be an adequate replecement but I would angle the
screws down a little.

Like what he said...

http://www.choiceful.com/choiceful-i...xing-WB5N.html

John

"John" wrote in message
...

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...


"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
So last night, I came to fit the bog to my daughter's bathroom - you
remember, the Barcelona whose bag of bits had been missing, and were
replaced by the erk in the shop nicking a set from another box on the
shelf.

My son-in-law had done a nice job of fitting the syphon unit, and the
inlet float unit, with a wipe of silicon rubber here and there, so we
were all ready to go. When I came to secure the pan down to the floor,
the screw holes went straight in, parallel to the floor, so there was no
way to put screws straight down into the floor. I ended up screwing a
block of wood to the floor, and then screwing horizontally into that,
which has not given what I would consider to be the 'normal' solid fix.
The bottom of the pan is not particularly straight, so there is some
movement when it is sat on. Any thoughts on that part ?

Yes. There should be two plastic fitments. They are L shaped, the base
screws to the floor and the rising part has the form of a rectangular
area predrilled with an array of holes. This fits just inside the edge of
the pan base and, once the pan is in place you screw into the nearest
hole. The riser is angled a bit so you are pulling the pan down to a
certain extent. I have these on mine and they work well. I would imagine
the wood block you have would be an adequate replecement but I would
angle the screws down a little.

Like what he said...

http://www.choiceful.com/choiceful-i...xing-WB5N.html

John
OK, I guess that's just another set of bits that were missing then ...
Update on the filler valve. They went into B&Q this morning, and the erks
just gave them another whole set of bits, in a sealed bag this time. Having
examined the internals of the new valve, there was indeed a piece missing
from the original. There is a little plastic 'piston' which sits behind the
diaphragm, and locates in the hole in the diaphragm. I haven't quite figured
how the valve works, but it is indeed reliant on water pressure, as someone
else suggested. There is a tiny hole in the body behind the diaphragm, and
when the float comes up, the attached arm presses a little rubber pad
against this hole to seal it. If you blow into the connector end of the
assembly, the air escapes at the top, as you would expect. As soon as you
block that little tiny hole, you can't blow into it any more, as should be
the case, so I guess that the little hole is a diaphragm bypass, which
allows it to sit off the valve seat by virtue of its own springiness. When
the little hole is blocked off, the water pressure must then press the
diaphragm against the seat, cutting off the water.

So I guess that we've now won a complete 'spare' set of valve and flusher
components, less the little plastic part that was missing from the original
.... ({:-)

Arfa

Bob Mannix wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
So last night, I came to fit the bog to my daughter's bathroom - you
remember, the Barcelona whose bag of bits had been missing, and were
replaced by the erk in the shop nicking a set from another box on the
shelf.

My son-in-law had done a nice job of fitting the syphon unit, and the
inlet float unit, with a wipe of silicon rubber here and there, so
we were all ready to go. When I came to secure the pan down to the
floor, the screw holes went straight in, parallel to the floor, so
there was no way to put screws straight down into the floor. I ended
up screwing a block of wood to the floor, and then screwing
horizontally into that, which has not given what I would consider to
be the 'normal' solid fix. The bottom of the pan is not particularly
straight, so there is some movement when it is sat on. Any thoughts
on that part ?

Yes. There should be two plastic fitments. They are L shaped, the base
screws to the floor and the rising part has the form of a rectangular
area predrilled with an array of holes. This fits just inside the
edge of the pan base and, once the pan is in place you screw into the
nearest hole. The riser is angled a bit so you are pulling the pan
down to a certain extent. I have these on mine and they work well. I
would imagine the wood block you have would be an adequate
replecement but I would angle the screws down a little.

Last B&Q bog I fitted also had bits missing. It had two metal brackets
which screwed down to the floor & two horizontal holes in the pan base. The
brackets were threaded & two machine screw held the thing in place. No
measurements or template supplied, real fiddly to get lined up.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Arfa Daily"
saying something like:

So I guess that we've now won a complete 'spare' set of valve and flusher
components, less the little plastic part that was missing from the original
... ({:-)

Sometimes, you gotta think outside the bogs.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
Bob Mannix wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
So last night, I came to fit the bog to my daughter's bathroom - you
remember, the Barcelona whose bag of bits had been missing, and were
replaced by the erk in the shop nicking a set from another box on the
shelf.

My son-in-law had done a nice job of fitting the syphon unit, and the
inlet float unit, with a wipe of silicon rubber here and there, so
we were all ready to go. When I came to secure the pan down to the
floor, the screw holes went straight in, parallel to the floor, so
there was no way to put screws straight down into the floor. I ended
up screwing a block of wood to the floor, and then screwing
horizontally into that, which has not given what I would consider to
be the 'normal' solid fix. The bottom of the pan is not particularly
straight, so there is some movement when it is sat on. Any thoughts
on that part ?

Yes. There should be two plastic fitments. They are L shaped, the base
screws to the floor and the rising part has the form of a rectangular
area predrilled with an array of holes. This fits just inside the
edge of the pan base and, once the pan is in place you screw into the
nearest hole. The riser is angled a bit so you are pulling the pan
down to a certain extent. I have these on mine and they work well. I
would imagine the wood block you have would be an adequate
replecement but I would angle the screws down a little.

Last B&Q bog I fitted also had bits missing. It had two metal brackets
which screwed down to the floor & two horizontal holes in the pan base.
The brackets were threaded & two machine screw held the thing in place.
No measurements or template supplied, real fiddly to get lined up.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



......and consider bedding it all down onto silicone to make it really
stable. The base is rarely 100% flat. Inject a bead whilst wedging it up
slightly. Inject - release wedges and then insert screws - leave to set.

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Arfa Daily"
saying something like:

So I guess that we've now won a complete 'spare' set of valve and flusher
components, less the little plastic part that was missing from the
original
... ({:-)

Sometimes, you gotta think outside the bogs.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

Talking of Barstow, I passed through it driving to Vegas a few years back.
It *is* a very 'edge of the desert' sort of place ...

Arfa

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
Bob Mannix wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
So last night, I came to fit the bog to my daughter's bathroom - you
remember, the Barcelona whose bag of bits had been missing, and were
replaced by the erk in the shop nicking a set from another box on the
shelf.

My son-in-law had done a nice job of fitting the syphon unit, and the
inlet float unit, with a wipe of silicon rubber here and there, so
we were all ready to go. When I came to secure the pan down to the
floor, the screw holes went straight in, parallel to the floor, so
there was no way to put screws straight down into the floor. I ended
up screwing a block of wood to the floor, and then screwing
horizontally into that, which has not given what I would consider to
be the 'normal' solid fix. The bottom of the pan is not particularly
straight, so there is some movement when it is sat on. Any thoughts
on that part ?

Yes. There should be two plastic fitments. They are L shaped, the base
screws to the floor and the rising part has the form of a rectangular
area predrilled with an array of holes. This fits just inside the
edge of the pan base and, once the pan is in place you screw into the
nearest hole. The riser is angled a bit so you are pulling the pan
down to a certain extent. I have these on mine and they work well. I
would imagine the wood block you have would be an adequate
replecement but I would angle the screws down a little.

Last B&Q bog I fitted also had bits missing. It had two metal brackets
which screwed down to the floor & two horizontal holes in the pan base.
The brackets were threaded & two machine screw held the thing in place.
No measurements or template supplied, real fiddly to get lined up.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



Yep, those are the bits that were missing also. I fixed a piece of studding
to the floor, and then screwed into the ends of that. What was ever wrong
with simple holes that pointed down at the floor, at an angle ?

I begin to understand now why the pros on here, have such a cry about
clients who supply their own goods ...

Arfa

"John" wrote in message
...

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
Bob Mannix wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
So last night, I came to fit the bog to my daughter's bathroom - you
remember, the Barcelona whose bag of bits had been missing, and were
replaced by the erk in the shop nicking a set from another box on the
shelf.

My son-in-law had done a nice job of fitting the syphon unit, and the
inlet float unit, with a wipe of silicon rubber here and there, so
we were all ready to go. When I came to secure the pan down to the
floor, the screw holes went straight in, parallel to the floor, so
there was no way to put screws straight down into the floor. I ended
up screwing a block of wood to the floor, and then screwing
horizontally into that, which has not given what I would consider to
be the 'normal' solid fix. The bottom of the pan is not particularly
straight, so there is some movement when it is sat on. Any thoughts
on that part ?

Yes. There should be two plastic fitments. They are L shaped, the base
screws to the floor and the rising part has the form of a rectangular
area predrilled with an array of holes. This fits just inside the
edge of the pan base and, once the pan is in place you screw into the
nearest hole. The riser is angled a bit so you are pulling the pan
down to a certain extent. I have these on mine and they work well. I
would imagine the wood block you have would be an adequate
replecement but I would angle the screws down a little.

Last B&Q bog I fitted also had bits missing. It had two metal brackets
which screwed down to the floor & two horizontal holes in the pan base.
The brackets were threaded & two machine screw held the thing in place.
No measurements or template supplied, real fiddly to get lined up.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



.....and consider bedding it all down onto silicone to make it really
stable. The base is rarely 100% flat. Inject a bead whilst wedging it up
slightly. Inject - release wedges and then insert screws - leave to set.


Yep, that too !! It rocked fore and aft so badly, that I had to wedge some
pieces of 4mm tile under the front and front/side edges, which I then buried
and hid in a silicon rubber fillet. Update also on the new filler valve.
That is now fitted, and works, so the whole bog installation is mercifully
now complete. All I can say is that I'm glad that I am an 'experienced'
DIYer, otherwise, I would have been right in the crap - literally !!

Arfa

On 7 Oct, 01:35, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"John" wrote in message

...







"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. com...
Bob Mannix wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
So last night, I came to fit the bog to my daughter's bathroom - you
remember, the Barcelona whose bag of bits had been missing, and were
replaced by the erk in the shop nicking a set from another box on the
shelf.

My son-in-law had done a nice job of fitting the syphon unit, and the
inlet float unit, with a wipe of silicon rubber here and there, so
we were all ready to go. When I came to secure the pan down to the
floor, the screw holes went straight in, parallel to the floor, so
there was no way to put screws straight down into the floor. I ended
up screwing a block of wood to the floor, and then screwing
horizontally into that, which has not given what I would consider to
be the 'normal' solid fix. The bottom of the pan is not particularly
straight, so there is some movement when it is sat on. Any thoughts
on that part ?

Yes. There should be two plastic fitments. They are L shaped, the base
screws to the floor and the rising part has the form of a rectangular
area predrilled with an array of holes. This fits just inside the
edge of the pan base and, once the pan is in place you screw into the
nearest hole. The riser is angled a bit so you are pulling the pan
down to a certain extent. I have these on mine and they work well. I
would imagine the wood block you have would be an adequate
replecement but I would angle the screws down a little.

Last B&Q bog I fitted also had bits missing. *It had two metal brackets
which screwed down to the floor & two horizontal holes in the pan base..
The brackets were threaded & two machine screw held the thing in place..
No measurements or template supplied, real fiddly to get lined up.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

.....and consider bedding it all down onto silicone to make it really
stable. The base is rarely 100% flat. Inject a bead whilst wedging it up
slightly. Inject - release wedges and then insert screws - leave to set..

Yep, that too !! It rocked fore and aft so badly, that I had to wedge some
pieces of 4mm tile under the front and front/side edges, which I then buried
and hid in a silicon rubber fillet. Update also on the new filler valve.
That is now fitted, and works, so the whole bog installation is mercifully
now complete. All I can say is that I'm glad that I am an 'experienced'
DIYer, otherwise, I would have been right in the crap - literally !!

Arfa- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Hi Arfa,

So did the cistern fit flat against the wall?
Sounds like the Barcelona bog has changed a little since I bough mine
- the pan has 2 holes for screws which screw down into the floor.

Mark.

snip

Yep, that too !! It rocked fore and aft so badly, that I had to wedge some
pieces of 4mm tile under the front and front/side edges, which I then
buried
and hid in a silicon rubber fillet. Update also on the new filler valve.
That is now fitted, and works, so the whole bog installation is mercifully
now complete. All I can say is that I'm glad that I am an 'experienced'
DIYer, otherwise, I would have been right in the crap - literally !!

Arfa- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Hi Arfa,

So did the cistern fit flat against the wall?
Sounds like the Barcelona bog has changed a little since I bough mine
- the pan has 2 holes for screws which screw down into the floor.

Mark.

Hi Mark. Well, hard to say really. Because of the existing 'boxing in' of
the soil pipe where it ran along the floor, the position of the bog pan with
respect to the back wall, was pretty much fixed. As the outlet of the new
pan was at exactly the same height as on the original, I was able to just
leave the existing straight collar, which was in good condition, in place,
and plug straight in. However, from this location, the original cistern was
right against the wall, even though on a later examination, it was in fact
no 'deeper' than the Barcelona's cistern. The Barcelona's was about 3cm off
the wall, so the only explanation is that it is mounted to the pan about 3cm
closer to the seat back which, together with the lack of mounting holes,
might go along with this ludicrous contention of the manufacturers, that it
is intended to be "free-standing".

Now I don't know about you, but I'm not going to trust two flimsy bolts and
a soft rubber donut, to keep that cistern attached to the pan, in a secure
and leak-proof way, when 'users' are just gonna lean against it ... So I
fixed an appropriate sized piece of wood - which happened to be some
off-the-shelf planed size that I had a lump of, and which also happened to
be exactly the right thickness - to the wall, and then silicon rubbered the
back of the cistern to it, before finally screwing the bog pan to the batten
of wood that I had to put under it, because the horizontal screwing brackets
were missing ...

Which brings us back to your original question. So no, it didn't fit flat to
the wall for the reasons given above, but also, it didn't *look* as though
it *leaned* forward by any significant amount, as yours did, either.
Clearly, it is mounted to the pan some distance further forward, and also,
it would not have been possible to screw it to the wall due to a lack of
holes in it, but if the pan had been able to go back far enough, I think it
might have lain fairly flat to the wall. If all that makes sense ... :-\

Arfa