My son has just moved into a new (old) house and found a (locked)
SUPRA key-safe attached to the side wall. This is the grey-box type that
has two vertical rows of five mechanical push buttons (numbered 1 to 10)
on it along with OPEN and CLOSE sliders.
It's absolutely no use to him locked so he'd like to be able to open
it or, if that is not possible, just to remove it from the wall without
seriously damaging the brickwork to which it is attached. The previous
owner of the house died so it's not possible to ask her the key
combination.

Apart from the 'brutality with extreme prejudice' approach with a very
large hammer, can anyone suggest a better way to open or remove it? Can
anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is normally opened
when the correct code is known? How many digits need to be entered, and
how should the sliders be used? Is there a User Manual for it?

I suppose he could try entering all of the combinations one after the
other but I doubt that he's got the patience in view of all of the other
jobs that need to be done.

Many TIA - Dave

--
David C.Chapman - )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"David Chapman" wrote in message
...

My son has just moved into a new (old) house and found a (locked)
SUPRA key-safe attached to the side wall. This is the grey-box type
that
has two vertical rows of five mechanical push buttons (numbered 1 to
10)
on it along with OPEN and CLOSE sliders.
It's absolutely no use to him locked so he'd like to be able to
open
it or, if that is not possible, just to remove it from the wall
without
seriously damaging the brickwork to which it is attached. The
previous
owner of the house died so it's not possible to ask her the key
combination.

Apart from the 'brutality with extreme prejudice' approach with a
very
large hammer, can anyone suggest a better way to open or remove it?
Can
anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is normally opened
when the correct code is known? How many digits need to be entered,
and
how should the sliders be used? Is there a User Manual for it?

I suppose he could try entering all of the combinations one after
the
other but I doubt that he's got the patience in view of all of the
other
jobs that need to be done.

Many TIA - Dave

--
David C.Chapman - )
--------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Angle grinder shouldn't take too long to cut a hole - it's probably
only stout mild steel plate

AWEM

David Chapman wrote:
My son has just moved into a new (old) house and found a (locked)
SUPRA key-safe attached to the side wall. This is the grey-box type
that has two vertical rows of five mechanical push buttons (numbered
1 to 10) on it along with OPEN and CLOSE sliders.
It's absolutely no use to him locked so he'd like to be able to open
it or, if that is not possible, just to remove it from the wall
without seriously damaging the brickwork to which it is attached. The
previous owner of the house died so it's not possible to ask her the
key combination.

Apart from the 'brutality with extreme prejudice' approach with a
very large hammer, can anyone suggest a better way to open or remove
it? Can anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is
normally opened when the correct code is known? How many digits need
to be entered, and how should the sliders be used? Is there a User
Manual for it?
I suppose he could try entering all of the combinations one after the
other but I doubt that he's got the patience in view of all of the
other jobs that need to be done.

Many TIA - Dave

Dave,

A suggestion. We used one of then when my disabled father was alive to
allow the social services/cleaners access to his property - it may be worth
your while contacting them as this could be the case here - or possibly his
neighbours.

As a matter of interest, if as suggested by Andrew, you decide to cut it off
the wall, the steel in my father's old box tapers from around an 1/8" at the
'door' end to a 1/4" at the 'wall' end with a 1/4" base thickness (I've just
checked it to see if there was an engineers code there [there's not] and the
number of different combinations of numbers is quite large)

Tanner-'op

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 22:27:29 +0100, David Chapman wrote:

My son has just moved into a new (old) house and found a (locked)
SUPRA key-safe attached to the side wall. This is the grey-box type that
has two vertical rows of five mechanical push buttons (numbered 1 to 10)
on it along with OPEN and CLOSE sliders.
It's absolutely no use to him locked so he'd like to be able to open
it or, if that is not possible, just to remove it from the wall without
seriously damaging the brickwork to which it is attached. The previous
owner of the house died so it's not possible to ask her the key
combination.

Human factors: it probably wasn't the previous owner the thing was
intended for but social services etc. If you can find out who was looking
after him/her they may have the number on record. Maybe even the
neighbours know it?

Otherwise try brute-forcing it in the cryptographic sense: if it's like
the one our neighbour had (which I just opened and removed for the
painters doing up the house for its new occupants!) it doesn't matter
which order the numbers are entered in so 1234 is the same as 4321 etc -
that reduces your search space. There can't be 2 digits the same so you
can't have say 1233. And the mfrs recommend choosing 4 digits. I leave it
as an exercise to the more numerate readers to work out how many
combinations it is (1234, 1235, 1236, 1237, 1238, 1239, 2345, 2346,
2347, 2348, 2349, 3456, 3457, 3458, 3459 ...) but it's possibly less than
the hassle of attacking it with an angle grinder and/or making good
damaged brickwork.

--
John Stumbles

I've got nothing against racists - I just wouldn't want my daughter to marry one

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 22:27:29 +0100, David Chapman wrote:

... Can
anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is normally opened
when the correct code is known? How many digits need to be entered, and
how should the sliders be used? Is there a User Manual for it?

As I say, on our neighbours one the mfrs recommended setting it to 4
digits but 3 or 5 or possibly even 2 or 6 digits could be set. Most of
these sorts of things have a clear or reset button to un-press any buttons
you've already pressed, and once you've pressed your choice another device
to (try to) open the lock. On our neighbours it was spring loaded so after
you'd opened it with the correct combo and let go of the opening latch you
had to enter the combo again to lock it - grrr!

I suppose he could try entering all of the combinations one after the
other but I doubt that he's got the patience in view of all of the other
jobs that need to be done.

As I said in my earlier message there aren't as many distinct combinations
as one might think. Maybe offer a prize for whoever cracks it and invite
in the street?!

--
John Stumbles

Thank God I'm an atheist

John Stumbles wrote:
On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 22:27:29 +0100, David Chapman wrote:

... Can
anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is normally opened
when the correct code is known? How many digits need to be entered,
and how should the sliders be used? Is there a User Manual for it?

As I say, on our neighbours one the mfrs recommended setting it to 4
digits but 3 or 5 or possibly even 2 or 6 digits could be set. Most of
these sorts of things have a clear or reset button to un-press any
buttons you've already pressed, and once you've pressed your choice
another device to (try to) open the lock. On our neighbours it was
spring loaded so after you'd opened it with the correct combo and let
go of the opening latch you had to enter the combo again to lock it -
grrr!

I suppose he could try entering all of the combinations one after
the other but I doubt that he's got the patience in view of all of
the other jobs that need to be done.

As I said in my earlier message there aren't as many distinct
combinations as one might think. Maybe offer a prize for whoever
cracks it and invite in the street?!

No thanks John,

I once forgot my key to get into my father's house - but I thought that's no
problem, I'll open the keysafe - ha!

I'd also forgotten the combination of that as well (a 5 digit one) and spent
40 minutes trying to wangle the damn thing before giving up and walking the
half mile back to my house for his door key (and also writing down the
combination of the safe to go in my wallet).

And I hate walking! :-(

Tanner-'op

John Stumbles wrote:

Otherwise try brute-forcing it in the cryptographic sense: if it's like
the one our neighbour had (which I just opened and removed for the
painters doing up the house for its new occupants!) it doesn't matter
which order the numbers are entered in so 1234 is the same as 4321 etc -
that reduces your search space. There can't be 2 digits the same so you
can't have say 1233. And the mfrs recommend choosing 4 digits. I leave it
as an exercise to the more numerate readers to work out how many
combinations it is (1234, 1235, 1236, 1237, 1238, 1239, 2345, 2346,
2347, 2348, 2349, 3456, 3457, 3458, 3459 ...) but it's possibly less than
the hassle of attacking it with an angle grinder and/or making good
damaged brickwork.


If I have my numbers right, there are 10 choices for the 1st digit, 9
for the 2nd, and so on so that 10x9x8x7, but as it doesn't matter what
order you put them in you have to reduce that by 4x3x2x1 so 210
combinations. That's scarily few...

Andy

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:27:29 +0100, David Chapman wrote:

Apart from the 'brutality with extreme prejudice' approach with a very
large hammer, can anyone suggest a better way to open or remove it?

Others seem to think they are steel, but the ones I see on the web look
more like diecast zinc. Try forcing the cover with a cold chisel and lump
hammer. Diecast will give up moderately easyly steel might bend a bit.

Can anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is normally opened
when the correct code is known? How many digits need to be entered, and
how should the sliders be used? Is there a User Manual for it?

Try google... I found the instructions very quickly.

And another hit:

http://www.storakey.co.uk/product.as...ition=1&P_ID=2

"All KeySafes are made from Zinc Alloy and come with a 24 month
guarantee."

--
Cheers
Dave.

David Chapman wrote:
My son has just moved into a new (old) house and found a (locked)
SUPRA key-safe attached to the side wall. This is the grey-box type
that has two vertical rows of five mechanical push buttons (numbered
1 to 10) on it along with OPEN and CLOSE sliders.
It's absolutely no use to him locked so he'd like to be able to open
it or, if that is not possible, just to remove it from the wall
without seriously damaging the brickwork to which it is attached. The
previous owner of the house died so it's not possible to ask her the
key combination.

Apart from the 'brutality with extreme prejudice' approach with a
very large hammer, can anyone suggest a better way to open or remove
it? Can anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is
normally opened when the correct code is known? How many digits need
to be entered, and how should the sliders be used? Is there a User
Manual for it?
I suppose he could try entering all of the combinations one after the
other but I doubt that he's got the patience in view of all of the
other jobs that need to be done.

Assuming numbers can be used more than once and all 10 numbers are used,
thats 1 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 6 x 7 x 8 x 9 x 10 possible combinations if my
maths are right. Well over 3 million possibles.

Angle grinder!


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

John Stumbles wrote:


Otherwise try brute-forcing it in the cryptographic sense: if it's
like the one our neighbour had (which I just opened and removed for
the painters doing up the house for its new occupants!) it doesn't
matter which order the numbers are entered in so 1234 is the same as
4321 etc - that reduces your search space. There can't be 2 digits
the same so you can't have say 1233. And the mfrs recommend choosing
4 digits. I leave it as an exercise to the more numerate readers to
work out how many combinations it is (1234, 1235, 1236, 1237, 1238,
1239, 2345, 2346, 2347, 2348, 2349, 3456, 3457, 3458, 3459 ...) but
it's possibly less than the hassle of attacking it with an angle
grinder and/or making good damaged brickwork.

Most combination locks/safes allow you to use numbers more than once. 4
numbers mean 10,000 possible combinations.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In message , The Medway
Handyman writes

Assuming numbers can be used more than once and all 10 numbers are used,
thats 1 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 6 x 7 x 8 x 9 x 10 possible combinations if my
maths are right. Well over 3 million possibles.

Angle grinder!



A poor assumption if it is a "cheap" lock, certainly a lot of door locks
similar to the type shown below do not mind what order you input the
numbers. Also a tip with any lock like this is "keep ALL the buttons
clean" I have opened quite a few by looking to see which ones are clean,
ie used, and those that are dirty, ie not used.

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...onid=UCAP312RW
GEF0CSTHZOSFFA?productId=35131&imageNo=null&ts=991 44

http://tinyurl.com/6hsotm

--
Bill

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
John Stumbles wrote:


Otherwise try brute-forcing it in the cryptographic sense: if it's
like the one our neighbour had (which I just opened and removed for
the painters doing up the house for its new occupants!) it doesn't
matter which order the numbers are entered in so 1234 is the same as
4321 etc - that reduces your search space. There can't be 2 digits
the same so you can't have say 1233. And the mfrs recommend choosing
4 digits. I leave it as an exercise to the more numerate readers to
work out how many combinations it is (1234, 1235, 1236, 1237, 1238,
1239, 2345, 2346, 2347, 2348, 2349, 3456, 3457, 3458, 3459 ...) but
it's possibly less than the hassle of attacking it with an angle
grinder and/or making good damaged brickwork.

Most combination locks/safes allow you to use numbers more than once. 4
numbers mean 10,000 possible combinations.


These are the mechanical ones you may see on internal doors in offices. Hit
the right 4 buttons and turn the knob. It doesn't matter which order you hit
the buttons.

On Sep 3, 9:27 am, David Chapman wrote:

Can anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is normally opened
when the correct code is known? How many digits need to be entered, and
how should the sliders be used? Is there a User Manual for it?

I suppose he could try entering all of the combinations one after the
other but I doubt that he's got the patience in view of all of the other
jobs that need to be done.

Trying the cleanest keys first would be a good idea.

Otherwise, assuming that each key can be used once, there are 1023
combinations. I'd say 4 keys used is most likely, so that's 210
combinations. I have opened locked briefcases bought at jumble sales
in minutes by trying all combinations!

Keys Combinations
1 10
2 45
3 120
4 210
5 252
6 210
7 120
8 45
9 10
10 1 [duh!]
total 1023

Can anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is normally opened
when the correct code is known? How many digits need to be entered, and
how should the sliders be used? Is there a User Manual for it?

I suppose he could try entering all of the combinations one after the
other but I doubt that he's got the patience in view of all of the other
jobs that need to be done.

Trying the cleanest keys first would be a good idea.

Otherwise, assuming that each key can be used once, there are 1023
combinations. I'd say 4 keys used is most likely, so that's 210
combinations. I have opened locked briefcases bought at jumble sales
in minutes by trying all combinations!

Keys Combinations
1 10
2 45
3 120
4 210
5 252
6 210
7 120
8 45
9 10
10 1 [duh!]
total 1023

(X to the power X+1) -1 where X is the number of digits and number can be
used more than once. So a five digit combination number has 15624
permutations and an eight digit combination has 134,217,727 possibilities. I
was always told my "O" level maths would be useful some day assuming I have
not screwed up!

Peter Crosland

"OG" wrote in message
...


These are the mechanical ones you may see on internal doors in offices.
Hit the right 4 buttons and turn the knob. It doesn't matter which order
you hit the buttons.


Except mine is set to six digits to press so you will never find it.
You can change the number of digits to press on most mechanical door locks,
but not on the supra wall safes AFAIK.

"Bill" wrote in message
...


A poor assumption if it is a "cheap" lock, certainly a lot of door locks
similar to the type shown below do not mind what order you input the
numbers. Also a tip with any lock like this is "keep ALL the buttons
clean" I have opened quite a few by looking to see which ones are clean,
ie used, and those that are dirty, ie not used.

The same applies to burglar alarm panels, you can see which digits people
use on a lot of panels, either by the dirt or by the depressions in the
membranes.. best to change the code so it doesn't happen.

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Sep 3, 9:27 am, David Chapman wrote:

Can anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is normally opened
when the correct code is known? How many digits need to be entered, and
how should the sliders be used? Is there a User Manual for it?

I suppose he could try entering all of the combinations one after the
other but I doubt that he's got the patience in view of all of the other
jobs that need to be done.

Trying the cleanest keys first would be a good idea.

Otherwise, assuming that each key can be used once, there are 1023
combinations. I'd say 4 keys used is most likely, so that's 210
combinations. I have opened locked briefcases bought at jumble sales
in minutes by trying all combinations!

You don't usually need to do that.. just put slight pressure on the bit you
slide across.. find the loosest wheel and rotate it until you feel the knob
move a bit,.. repeat with the next wheel. Takes a few seconds in most cases.

You could tell I worked for Chubb for a while if you saw how easily I can
open desks and filing cabinets.
I used to demonstrate how to do it with a spoon and a paper clip.

The best one was when someone came around trying to borrow car keys as he
had locked his in the boot.
I told him he was wasting his time as he wouldn't open it with another key,
however he was absolutely amazed when I picked up a tea spoon and opened it
in about two seconds.

Just as well I am not criminally minded. 8-)

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
Can anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is normally opened
when the correct code is known? How many digits need to be entered, and
how should the sliders be used? Is there a User Manual for it?

I suppose he could try entering all of the combinations one after the
other but I doubt that he's got the patience in view of all of the other
jobs that need to be done.

Trying the cleanest keys first would be a good idea.

Otherwise, assuming that each key can be used once, there are 1023
combinations. I'd say 4 keys used is most likely, so that's 210
combinations. I have opened locked briefcases bought at jumble sales
in minutes by trying all combinations!

Keys Combinations
1 10
2 45
3 120
4 210
5 252
6 210
7 120
8 45
9 10
10 1 [duh!]
total 1023

(X to the power X+1) -1 where X is the number of digits and number can be
used more than once. So a five digit combination number has 15624
permutations and an eight digit combination has 134,217,727 possibilities.
I was always told my "O" level maths would be useful some day assuming I
have not screwed up!

Logic may be a bit wrong though..
with many of these mechanical locks you can have variable length numbers..
so its one from ten (or more as some have letters too) + two from n + three
from n, etc.

It takes time as the damn things are so hard to actually press and then try,
that is the principle behind them, if it were quick to enter the code and
try a combination lock would be useless.

They should not be used where anyone can spend a long time unobserved as
that is just asking for trouble.

For example, fitting one to the outside door on a porch and leaving the main
door unlocked is a lot more secure than fitting one to the main door and
leaving the porch unlocked. All a crim has to do is enter the porch and pin
a curtain to the porch door and he can take as long as he wants to open the
main door without anyone seeing him.

My favorite would be to knick a potted tree from somewhere and plonk it
outside someone's house in the night. Then you go back and work behind the
tree hidden from view. Most neighbours just wouldn't notice.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Sep 3, 9:27 am, David Chapman wrote:

Can anyone explain how this particular SUPRA key-safe is normally opened
when the correct code is known? How many digits need to be entered, and
how should the sliders be used? Is there a User Manual for it?

I suppose he could try entering all of the combinations one after the
other but I doubt that he's got the patience in view of all of the other
jobs that need to be done.

Trying the cleanest keys first would be a good idea.

Otherwise, assuming that each key can be used once, there are 1023
combinations. I'd say 4 keys used is most likely, so that's 210
combinations. I have opened locked briefcases bought at jumble sales
in minutes by trying all combinations!

You don't usually need to do that.. just put slight pressure on the bit
you slide across.. find the loosest wheel and rotate it until you feel the
knob move a bit,.. repeat with the next wheel. Takes a few seconds in most
cases.

You could tell I worked for Chubb for a while if you saw how easily I can
open desks and filing cabinets.
I used to demonstrate how to do it with a spoon and a paper clip.

The best one was when someone came around trying to borrow car keys as he
had locked his in the boot.
I told him he was wasting his time as he wouldn't open it with another
key, however he was absolutely amazed when I picked up a tea spoon and
opened it in about two seconds.

Just as well I am not criminally minded. 8-)

I believe that some mechanical locks just require the number to match the
total of the code. eg: a code of 1234, could be openned with 5311

"John" wrote in message
...

I believe that some mechanical locks just require the number to match the
total of the code. eg: a code of 1234, could be openned with 5311


I can't imagine how (or why) you would design such a mechanism.
It would be like a mechanical adding machine and they are complex.

On 2 Sep, 22:27, David Chapman wrote:
* *My son has just moved into a new (old) house and found a (locked)
SUPRA key-safe attached to the side wall. This is the grey-box type that
has two vertical rows of five mechanical push buttons (numbered 1 to 10)
on it along with OPEN and CLOSE sliders.

Assuming that it's a re-working of the copmmonplace office doorlock
mechanism of that form, then manipulate it to open it. This sort isn't
hard (half-an-hour ish) and the information is on the web.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:
The same applies to burglar alarm panels, you can see which digits people
use on a lot of panels, either by the dirt or by the depressions in the
membranes.. best to change the code so it doesn't happen.

The one in my local bank, for access to the staff area, has an LCD
touchpad. I presume the location of the 'buttons' changes each time it's
used.

I bet it doesn't, it would inconvenience the staff too much.
I have actually fitted alarms in a bank at one time in my past and it wasn't
half as secure as you might think.
It was a bugger drilling safe doors to fit the tremblers and lock covering
plates as cobalt drills weren't available when I was doing it. I getting HSS
drills in boxes of a hundred. 8-)

I don't think it matters if I mention it these days as the bank in question
doesn't exist any more so I can't exactly give much away.

On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:36:07 +0100, Owain wrote:

The one in my local bank, for access to the staff area, has an LCD
touchpad. I presume the location of the 'buttons' changes each time it's
used.

Almost certainly, stops "shoulder surfing".

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 09:21:54 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

The best one was when someone came around trying to borrow car keys as
he had locked his in the boot.

A guy I was working for locked his house as well as car keys inside his
car and his girlfriend had gone to Cornwall (we were in Henley) for a
couple of days. He wanted to borrow a steel tape measure to slide down
the window to hook some mythical mechanism inside and unlock it. Wrecked
my 50p B&Q tape doing it :-(

Then I had a look. It was a Mitsubishi (IIRC) jeep-ey thing with rear
windows of the design of a sheet of glass hinged at one end with a catch
at the other that allows them to open by an inch or so, and when shut the
glass simply presses agains the rubber surround to seal it. I was able to
pry the glass away from the seal enough to slide a thin steel wrecking bar
in and flick the catch to open it as far as it would go. That was far
enough to get something long (I think I used a stopcock key) through to
work a door handle.

The guy seemed to have mixed feelings about it: grateful to have got in
and got his keys back but freaked out that it had been so easy to do: it'd
probably have taken 30 seconds or so if I'd known what I was doing from
the start.


--
John Stumbles

I used to think the brain was the most interesting part of the body
- until I realised what was telling me that

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 09:21:54 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

The best one was when someone came around trying to borrow car keys as
he had locked his in the boot.

A guy I was working for locked his house as well as car keys inside his
car and his girlfriend had gone to Cornwall (we were in Henley) for a
couple of days. He wanted to borrow a steel tape measure to slide down
the window to hook some mythical mechanism inside and unlock it. Wrecked
my 50p B&Q tape doing it :-(

Then I had a look. It was a Mitsubishi (IIRC) jeep-ey thing with rear
windows of the design of a sheet of glass hinged at one end with a catch
at the other that allows them to open by an inch or so, and when shut the
glass simply presses agains the rubber surround to seal it. I was able to
pry the glass away from the seal enough to slide a thin steel wrecking bar
in and flick the catch to open it as far as it would go. That was far
enough to get something long (I think I used a stopcock key) through to
work a door handle.

The guy seemed to have mixed feelings about it: grateful to have got in
and got his keys back but freaked out that it had been so easy to do: it'd
probably have taken 30 seconds or so if I'd known what I was doing from
the start.

The guy I open the boot, using the spoon, for wasn't too happy about it
either.. he had been keeping all his valuables in the boot (we were camping)
thinking it would be safe not that it could be opened in seconds.
IIRC he said "f'ing ell, you opened that quicker than I can with the key"
I told him that was the reason I had an alarm.

On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 08:45:46 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

I presume the location of the 'buttons' changes each time it's used.

I bet it doesn't, it would inconvenience the staff too much.

The one on entry to Hemelhempstead maternity unit did, I watched...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 08:30:26 GMT, John Stumbles wrote:

He wanted to borrow a steel tape measure to slide down the window to
hook some mythical mechanism inside and unlock it.

You used to be able to do that, just hook one of the control rods an pull.
Modern cars have these bits covered these days to stop it or at least make
it somewhat harder. Look at the evolution of the pop up buttons. They used
to have a mushroom top that stayed proud, easy to get a wire or bit of
packing band around. Then they removed the mushroom top, harder but not
impossible, they then went flush when locked need to spike 'em. Now they
have disappeared completely.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 08:45:46 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

I presume the location of the 'buttons' changes each time it's used.

I bet it doesn't, it would inconvenience the staff too much.

The one on entry to Hemelhempstead maternity unit did, I watched...

So it made security worse then?
If it slows the staff down so that you have a chance to observe the code it
is a problem.

Or do you mean it was different after a member of staff went in and you
couldn't see what was entered?

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 08:30:26 GMT, John Stumbles wrote:

He wanted to borrow a steel tape measure to slide down the window to
hook some mythical mechanism inside and unlock it.

You used to be able to do that, just hook one of the control rods an pull.
Modern cars have these bits covered these days to stop it or at least make
it somewhat harder. Look at the evolution of the pop up buttons. They used
to have a mushroom top that stayed proud, easy to get a wire or bit of
packing band around. Then they removed the mushroom top, harder but not
impossible, they then went flush when locked need to spike 'em. Now they
have disappeared completely.

...to be replaced by sebnosr that unlock the door in a crash.

Hit the front bumper with a mallet...

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

I have actually fitted alarms in a bank at one time in my past and it wasn't
half as secure as you might think.

I was doing work in a bank some years ago - I was amused to see the back
door of the bank had been replaced with a sheet of ply, had been that
way for a couple of weeks and would be like that for a week yet. This
was a working branch while the building work was going on. The plywood
sheet did have some security; a couple of bolts and padlocks.

Amazingly, the back door didn't get kicked in.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

On Sep 3, 9:11*am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"OG" wrote in message

...

These are the mechanical ones you may see on internal doors in offices.
Hit the right 4 buttons and turn the knob. It doesn't matter which order
you hit the buttons.

Except mine is set to six digits to press so you will never find it.

Do the maths. You may be surprised. Assuming we're playing by the same
rules of order unimportant and no digits repeated.

MBQ

On Sep 4, 11:37*am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 08:30:26 GMT, John Stumbles wrote:

He wanted to borrow a steel tape measure to slide down the window to
hook some mythical mechanism inside and unlock it.

You used to be able to do that, just hook one of the control rods an pull.
Modern cars have these bits covered these days to stop it or at least make
it somewhat harder. Look at the evolution of the pop up buttons. They used
to have a mushroom top that stayed proud, easy to get a wire or bit of
packing band around. Then they removed the mushroom top, harder but not
impossible, they then went flush when locked need to spike 'em. Now they
have disappeared completely.

..to be replaced by sebnosr that unlock the door in a crash.

Hit the front bumper with a mallet...

I can certainly see the advantage of that when locked from the inside
but does it really apply when it's been locked from the outside?

MBQ

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

I have actually fitted alarms in a bank at one time in my past and it
wasn't
half as secure as you might think.

I was doing work in a bank some years ago - I was amused to see the back
door of the bank had been replaced with a sheet of ply, had been that
way for a couple of weeks and would be like that for a week yet. This
was a working branch while the building work was going on. The plywood
sheet did have some security; a couple of bolts and padlocks.

Amazingly, the back door didn't get kicked in.

I have fitted those before.. they are not just plywood as you will find out
if you do kick one in.
Assuming it was done by a reputable company, I was working for Chubb at the
time.

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Sep 3, 9:11 am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"OG" wrote in message

...

These are the mechanical ones you may see on internal doors in offices.
Hit the right 4 buttons and turn the knob. It doesn't matter which
order
you hit the buttons.

Except mine is set to six digits to press so you will never find it.

Do the maths. You may be surprised. Assuming we're playing by the same
rules of order unimportant and no digits repeated.

You do the math, no four digit presses will open it.
There are about 3,500,000 combinations if you have to try 1,2,...10 digit
numbers.

dennis@home wrote:


"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Sep 3, 9:11 am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"OG" wrote in message

...

These are the mechanical ones you may see on internal doors in
offices.
Hit the right 4 buttons and turn the knob. It doesn't matter which
order
you hit the buttons.

Except mine is set to six digits to press so you will never find it.

Do the maths. You may be surprised. Assuming we're playing by the same
rules of order unimportant and no digits repeated.

You do the math, no four digit presses will open it.
There are about 3,500,000 combinations if you have to try 1,2,...10
digit numbers.

OK, here's the math (or arithmetic).

As order is unimportant, and you are picking 5 non-repeating digits out
of 10,

For the 1st digit you have 10 choices, and 5 of them are right.
For the 2nd, 9 and 4

etc.

so 10x9x8x7x6/5/4/3/2/1 = 252 combinations.

I've just checked and this is the same number Matty got the other
night... and even if you don't know how many digits, it's still only
1000 or so.

Andy

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

I have fitted those before.. they are not just plywood as you will find out
if you do kick one in.

This one most certainly was. Nothing special about it - just 19mm ply.

Assuming it was done by a reputable company, I was working for Chubb at the
time.

I've no doubt Chubb made reinforced temporary ply doors, if you say so.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

I have fitted those before.. they are not just plywood as you will find
out
if you do kick one in.

This one most certainly was. Nothing special about it - just 19mm ply.

Assuming it was done by a reputable company, I was working for Chubb at
the
time.

I've no doubt Chubb made reinforced temporary ply doors, if you say so.

No but we did alarm them, and I won't be revealing how as its still done the
same way AFAIK.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

I've no doubt Chubb made reinforced temporary ply doors, if you say so.

No but we did alarm them, and I won't be revealing how as its still done the
same way AFAIK.

Thickos would kick it in, alarm or not and the more clued-up crims would
be well aware of the likely type of alarm protection.
This particular one more than likely had a couple of reed switches on it
and the rear hallway was probably covered by a motion sensor (30 years
ago, so likely ultrasonic), there was no break tape on the door, that I
do know, but - as you say, it's extremely unlikely it was unprotected.
It was just the incongruity of the bank being closed for the weekend by
a lump of plywood that tickled me at the time.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:02:27 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

I bet it doesn't, it would inconvenience the staff too much.

The one on entry to Hemelhempstead maternity unit did, I watched...

So it made security worse then?
If it slows the staff down so that you have a chance to observe the code
it is a problem.

Or do you mean it was different after a member of staff went in and you
couldn't see what was entered?

I'm not that good a shoulder surfing even on a fixed pad. The posistion of
the numbers changed after each use. The staff where fast enough, their
hand obscured most of the panel and the numbers too small(*) that it would
be quite hard to get the code.

(*) Small enough not to be read from 10' away but large enough to be able
see that what was say and 6, 8, or 9 or 0 last time was say a 1 or 7 the
next. Given enough time and enough entries you probably could get it but
not as quickly as you could with a fixed pad.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sep 4, 6:10*pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"Man at B&Q" wrote in ...

On Sep 3, 9:11 am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"OG" wrote in message

...

These are the mechanical ones you may see on internal doors in offices.
Hit the right 4 buttons and turn the knob. It doesn't matter which
order
you hit the buttons.

Except mine is set to six digits to press so you will never find it.

Do the maths. You may be surprised. Assuming we're playing by the same
rules of order unimportant and no digits repeated.

You do the math, no four digit presses will open it.
There are about 3,500,000 combinations if you have to try 1,2,...10 digit
numbers.

Well, in that case no 3-digit presses will open a lock expecting four.
Prat!

MBQ