Occassionally after removing a 13 A socket form a wall, to replace with a
new one, I have come across the problem that the end of the cable breaks off
just where it was gripped by the screw, usually this happens with the earth
wire.

Sometimes when I go to refit the socket I find that the wire is now too
short to allow the fitting to go back in the back box without being
stretched like a bango string !

Usually when this happens the cable cannot be pulled through the conduit
(some hope, its buried in the plaster).

What is an acceptable fix for this situation, I have been tempted to extend
the earth wire inside the box with a single section of a connector block
(chocolate block), and tucking the block away where it can come to no harm.
This seems a bit of a bodge, but is it acceptable ?

Ian.

"Ian French" wrote in message
...
Occassionally after removing a 13 A socket form a wall, to replace with a
new one, I have come across the problem that the end of the cable breaks
off
just where it was gripped by the screw, usually this happens with the
earth
wire.


This is uk.d-i-y we dont have real electricians on here.

This is perfectly acceptable...what are you supposed to do chase the wall
and refit a new lenght of cable because 1/2" has broken off the old cable in
the box.

ps whats a real electrician?

Ian French wrote:
Occassionally after removing a 13 A socket form a wall, to replace
with a new one, I have come across the problem that the end of the
cable breaks off just where it was gripped by the screw, usually this
happens with the earth wire.

I think an inline crimp is the answer, but IANAE. Someone much more
knowledgeable will be along shortly....


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article ,
Ian French wrote:
Sometimes when I go to refit the socket I find that the wire is now too
short to allow the fitting to go back in the back box without being
stretched like a bango string !

Usually when this happens the cable cannot be pulled through the conduit
(some hope, its buried in the plaster).

What is an acceptable fix for this situation, I have been tempted to
extend the earth wire inside the box with a single section of a
connector block (chocolate block), and tucking the block away where it
can come to no harm. This seems a bit of a bodge, but is it acceptable ?

Yes - it's simply another screw connection like all the others on the ring.

--
*How about "never"? Is "never" good for you?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
Ian French wrote:
Occassionally after removing a 13 A socket form a wall, to replace
with a new one, I have come across the problem that the end of the
cable breaks off just where it was gripped by the screw, usually this
happens with the earth wire.

I think an inline crimp is the answer, but IANAE. Someone much more
knowledgeable will be along shortly....


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable actually
cuts into the conducter and weakens it.

George wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message om...
Ian French wrote:
Occassionally after removing a 13 A socket form a wall, to replace
with a new one, I have come across the problem that the end of the
cable breaks off just where it was gripped by the screw, usually
this happens with the earth wire.

I think an inline crimp is the answer, but IANAE. Someone much more
knowledgeable will be along shortly....


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable
actually cuts into the conducter and weakens it.

Bollox.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In message , George
writes

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. com...
Ian French wrote:
Occassionally after removing a 13 A socket form a wall, to replace
with a new one, I have come across the problem that the end of the
cable breaks off just where it was gripped by the screw, usually this
happens with the earth wire.

I think an inline crimp is the answer, but IANAE. Someone much more
knowledgeable will be along shortly....


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk






Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable actually
cuts into the conducter and weakens it.

Oh dear, some one here may disagree with that.

http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....Cable_crimping





--
Bill

"George" wrote in message
om...


Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable actually
cuts into the conducter and weakens it.


Not as much as screwing it up.
I prefer crimps, they are quicker to start with as well as being more
reliable.

George wrote:

Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable actually
cuts into the conducter and weakens it.

Nonsense. In this circumstance any of the wiring regs approved cable
jointing methods would be acceptable (Screwed connections, crimped,
soldered, or welded). The most practical being screw terminal or crimps.

Personally I would crimp, it since it leave more room in the backbox and
there is no danger of the connection working lose.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , John Rumm
scribeth thus
George wrote:

Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable actually
cuts into the conducter and weakens it.

Nonsense. In this circumstance any of the wiring regs approved cable
jointing methods would be acceptable (Screwed connections, crimped,
soldered, or welded). The most practical being screw terminal or crimps.

Personally I would crimp, it since it leave more room in the backbox and
there is no danger of the connection working lose.


Crimp!..

But make sure you use decent crimps and the PROPER crimping pliers;!...
--
Tony Sayer

George wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message om...
Ian French wrote:
Occassionally after removing a 13 A socket form a wall, to replace
with a new one, I have come across the problem that the end of the
cable breaks off just where it was gripped by the screw, usually
this happens with the earth wire.

I think an inline crimp is the answer, but IANAE. Someone much more
knowledgeable will be along shortly....


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable
actually cuts into the conducter and weakens it.

I learned about crimps from people on this group, more knowledgeable than I
was. I asked questions, they were good enough to reply, I took their
advice. I invested the money in a proper ratchet crimper & used it as
instructed - I'm now a better handyman.

It's an excellent solution to short cables.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

George coughed up some electrons that declared:


Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable actually
cuts into the conducter and weakens it.

Erm, crimping is recognised by the IEE Wiring Regs and is preferred over
screw terminals in inaccessible locations.

Done properly with correctly sized crimps and a decent (ie ratchet) crimper
of course...

Cheers

Tim

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:15:46 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

George wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message om...
Ian French wrote:
Occassionally after removing a 13 A socket form a wall, to replace
with a new one, I have come across the problem that the end of the
cable breaks off just where it was gripped by the screw, usually this
happens with the earth wire.

I think an inline crimp is the answer, but IANAE. Someone much more
knowledgeable will be along shortly....


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable
actually cuts into the conducter and weakens it.

Bollox.

Succinctly put. A /proper/ crimper is the best way to join wires.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:36:37 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:


I learned about crimps from people on this group, more knowledgeable than I
was. I asked questions, they were good enough to reply, I took their
advice. I invested the money in a proper ratchet crimper & used it as
instructed - I'm now a better handyman.

No, merely better informed (and equipped).

Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry, Couldn't resist it.


It's an excellent solution to short cables.

It is.

Derek.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:04:41 GMT, "George"
wrote:


"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. com...
Ian French wrote:
Occassionally after removing a 13 A socket form a wall, to replace
with a new one, I have come across the problem that the end of the
cable breaks off just where it was gripped by the screw, usually this
happens with the earth wire.

I think an inline crimp is the answer, but IANAE. Someone much more
knowledgeable will be along shortly....


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable actually
cuts into the conducter and weakens it.

No it doesn't (or shouldn't). Personally I don't really like crimps,
but they don't cut into a conductor, rather they deform it to compress
it against either the crimp or another conductor.

Just like a choc block but rather more consistent if it's done
correctly.
--
Frank Erskine

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:15:46 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

George wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message om...
Ian French wrote:
Occassionally after removing a 13 A socket form a wall, to replace
with a new one, I have come across the problem that the end of the
cable breaks off just where it was gripped by the screw, usually this
happens with the earth wire.
I think an inline crimp is the answer, but IANAE. Someone much more
knowledgeable will be along shortly....


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk



Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable
actually cuts into the conducter and weakens it.
Bollox.

Succinctly put. A /proper/ crimper is the best way to join wires.


Well /a very good way indeed, and one sanctioned by TPTB for use in
uingettattable ares/ anyway...

On Aug 20, 10:47*pm, Tim S wrote:

Erm, crimping is recognised by the IEE Wiring Regs and is preferred over
screw terminals in inaccessible locations.

Done properly with correctly sized crimps and a decent (ie ratchet) crimper
of course...

With choc blocks in less accessible places I try to have each solid
core going under both screws.

Then there is some redundancy and the cores are also in direct contact
with each other.

cheers,
Pete.

In article
,
Pete C ukdiy wrote:
With choc blocks in less accessible places I try to have each solid
core going under both screws.

Good practice even in accessible areas.

--
*Tell me to 'stuff it' - I'm a taxidermist.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:40:35 +0100, me9 wrote:

On 20 Aug,
Ed Sirett wrote:

A /proper/ crimper is the best way to join wires.

And a proper crimp for the job. We had a problem on largeish (IIRC
aluminium) cables where the crimp was slightly oversize. Crimping
stretched the cable leading to early failure.

Crimping Ally is way beyond my expertise except. I would treat ally
conductors with great respect.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:40:35 +0100, me9 wrote:

On 20 Aug,
Ed Sirett wrote:

A /proper/ crimper is the best way to join wires.

And a proper crimp for the job. We had a problem on largeish (IIRC
aluminium) cables where the crimp was slightly oversize. Crimping
stretched the cable leading to early failure.

Crimping Ally is way beyond my expertise except. I would treat ally
conductors with great respect.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ
http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html


Horrid fatigue / work hardening issues with aluminium - lots of
expertise in the US as loads of aluminium wire used during the
Rhodesian coppper crissis.

AWEM

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:40:35 +0100, me9 wrote:

On 20 Aug,
Ed Sirett wrote:

A /proper/ crimper is the best way to join wires.
And a proper crimp for the job. We had a problem on largeish (IIRC
aluminium) cables where the crimp was slightly oversize. Crimping
stretched the cable leading to early failure.

Crimping Ally is way beyond my expertise except. I would treat ally
conductors with great respect.


strictly use ally crimps. Anything else creates a nasty corrosion potential.

In article , Bill
writes
In message , George
writes




Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable actually
cuts into the conducter and weakens it.

Oh dear, some one here may disagree with that.

http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....Cable_crimping


Time to de-lurk and stick my opinion in.

In a previous factory job I worked with a wide range of crimps.

The training literature I saw said that crimps should not be used on
solid core wires, unless designed to do so. I do not know if the
insulated crimps in the article are suitable for this.

I see the tool featured in the article is the same as the one I own, and
having used the proper tool at work I think it is quite frankly crap.
The crimping teeth don't line up with the crimp properly.
The teeth for the insulation part are exactly the same as for the copper
part, and are not adjustable for different thickness insulation.
The jaws do not close in a parallel fashion, making it difficult to
produce a crimp that's not twisted (more relevant for spade/ring
crimps).

I have used this tool, but only after cutting apart a spare crimp to
work out how to line up the crimp in the tool.

Bad crimping can most definitely crush the wire, even through the
insulation on that part of the crimp.

To the original poster, I'd say use the choccy blocks. **** what the
regs say, it's simple, accessible, replaceable and safe. If you mess up
a crimp, you'll have to cut it off and try again with an even shorter
wire.
--
Alex

In article ,
Alex wrote:
In article , Bill
writes
In message , George
writes




Oh! dear and I thought you was a good handyman? crimping a cable actually
cuts into the conducter and weakens it.

Oh dear, some one here may disagree with that.

http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....Cable_crimping


Time to de-lurk and stick my opinion in.

In a previous factory job I worked with a wide range of crimps.

The training literature I saw said that crimps should not be used on
solid core wires, unless designed to do so. I do not know if the
insulated crimps in the article are suitable for this.

Given 1, 1.5 and 2.5mm TW&E are solid core and these pre-insulated crimps
are designed for precisely this job I'd think they are suitable.

I see the tool featured in the article is the same as the one I own, and
having used the proper tool at work I think it is quite frankly crap.

There are literally thousands of different crimp tools for various
applications. So unless the 'one you had at work' was specifically for
these red blue and yellow pre-insulated types it's unlikely to work
properly.

The crimping teeth don't line up with the crimp properly.

Eh? You use the shoulder in the insulation as the guide to where the crimp
goes.

The teeth for the insulation part are exactly the same as for the copper
part, and are not adjustable for different thickness insulation.

The insulation of the cable should butt up to the actual crimp so the laws
are the same for both.

The jaws do not close in a parallel fashion, making it difficult to
produce a crimp that's not twisted (more relevant for spade/ring
crimps).

The amount of 'twist' over the actual crimping distance is tiny. Certainly
not enough to notice with some practice.

I have used this tool, but only after cutting apart a spare crimp to
work out how to line up the crimp in the tool.

You use the ratchet action to only just grip the crimp then push it
through so the shoulder stops on the jaw edge.

Bad crimping can most definitely crush the wire, even through the
insulation on that part of the crimp.

Then you're either not using the correct crimp or correct tool.

To the original poster, I'd say use the choccy blocks. **** what the
regs say, it's simple, accessible, replaceable and safe. If you mess up
a crimp, you'll have to cut it off and try again with an even shorter
wire.

The regs allow either where the joint is accessible - and inside the
backing box is accessible. If plastered into a wall the usual method is
crimping - choc blocks are *not* acceptable

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21 Aug, 09:43, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
Pete C ukdiy wrote:

With choc blocks in less accessible places I try to have each solid
core going under both screws.

Good practice even in accessible areas.

Hmm. It generally means that one wire is badly gripped on both sides -
because the chances of the screw nipping both equally are rather low.
Which means there is a good chance that the same wire is badly gripped
on both sides, which is not necessarily a Good Thing.

Ian

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:42:27 -0700 (PDT), The Real Doctor
wrote:

Hmm. It generally means that one wire is badly gripped on both sides -
because the chances of the screw nipping both equally are rather low.
Which means there is a good chance that the same wire is badly gripped
on both sides, which is not necessarily a Good Thing.

Can you please explain that further?

--
Frank Erskine

Alex wrote:

The training literature I saw said that crimps should not be used on
solid core wires, unless designed to do so. I do not know if the
insulated crimps in the article are suitable for this.

The crimps shown in the picture are designed for solid core
applications. Some versions have internal serrations to aid gripping
solid wires.

I see the tool featured in the article is the same as the one I own, and
having used the proper tool at work I think it is quite frankly crap.
The crimping teeth don't line up with the crimp properly.

Not sure I follow that. The tool pictured does not have teeth as such -
just recesses into which you place the body of the crimp.

Most solid wire crimps have a slight widening of the insulation by the
end of the metal part of the crimp, so you can position it correctly in
the jaws by closing them to grip the crimp lightly, and then sliding it
along until the widening bit hits the jaws. As shown in:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...pInTheJaws.jpg
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ingTheWire.jpg

The teeth for the insulation part are exactly the same as for the copper
part, and are not adjustable for different thickness insulation.

You are not supposed to crimp the insulation part at all with these.

The jaws do not close in a parallel fashion, making it difficult to
produce a crimp that's not twisted (more relevant for spade/ring
crimps).

Given you are only moving them through a mm or so, any rotation is going
to be negligible.

I have used this tool, but only after cutting apart a spare crimp to
work out how to line up the crimp in the tool.

Could you not just look into the end of a new crimp before you use it to
work out where the metal ends?

Bad crimping can most definitely crush the wire, even through the
insulation on that part of the crimp.

It can, but in practice it is hard to go wrong with T&E cable and the
crimps pictured.

To the original poster, I'd say use the choccy blocks. **** what the

As has been mentioned, the regs *allow* the use of choccy blocks for the
OPs application anyway. The only time you can't use them is when the
joint will no longer be accessible later (say when buried in plaster).

regs say, it's simple, accessible, replaceable and safe. If you mess up
a crimp, you'll have to cut it off and try again with an even shorter
wire.

IME, I have seen joints fail at screwed connections far more frequently
than at crimped ones[1]. The two most common failures being a connection
under tightened or working loose due to thermal cycling or solder creep
on tinned ends (which should be cut off), or wire fatigue due to over
tightening - typically on earth wires. Screw connections on the
accessories themselves are usually worse than those in choccy blocks
though since it is harder to do up a choccy block as tightly.

[1] which will be partly due to seeing far more screwed connections in
the first place, and never having seen a failed crimp connection.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article
,
The Real Doctor wrote:
With choc blocks in less accessible places I try to have each solid
core going under both screws.

Good practice even in accessible areas.

Hmm. It generally means that one wire is badly gripped on both sides -
because the chances of the screw nipping both equally are rather low.

It's not just the screw that 'does the work' but the contact between the
conductor and the connector body. Which is why crimps are generally better
- a larger contact area which if properly made is less likely to corrode,
etc.

Which means there is a good chance that the same wire is badly gripped
on both sides, which is not necessarily a Good Thing.

An ideal connection has the maximum contact area. This can be conductor to
conductor or conductor to connector.

FWIW all the higher current connectors you'll find at home use two screws
in exactly the same way - have a look inside your CU.

--
*If you think this van is dirty, you should try having sex with the driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:58:03 +0100
"Ian French" wrote:

Occassionally after removing a 13 A socket form a wall, to replace with a
new one, I have come across the problem that the end of the cable breaks off
just where it was gripped by the screw, usually this happens with the earth
wire.

Sometimes when I go to refit the socket I find that the wire is now too
short to allow the fitting to go back in the back box without being
stretched like a bango string !

Usually when this happens the cable cannot be pulled through the conduit
(some hope, its buried in the plaster).

What is an acceptable fix for this situation, I have been tempted to extend
the earth wire inside the box with a single section of a connector block
(chocolate block), and tucking the block away where it can come to no harm.
This seems a bit of a bodge, but is it acceptable ?

Ian.



joke begins:
Strange that no-one mentioned annealing the wire with a blowtorch
before repair to rectify any work-hardening.
:joke ends.

R.
IANAEE

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Frank Erskine
saying something like:

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:42:27 -0700 (PDT), The Real Doctor
wrote:

Hmm. It generally means that one wire is badly gripped on both sides -
because the chances of the screw nipping both equally are rather low.
Which means there is a good chance that the same wire is badly gripped
on both sides, which is not necessarily a Good Thing.

Can you please explain that further?

I doubt it, because it sounds like ********.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House