After my builder hasn't showed for the 3rd time again without as much as a
call I'm contemplating tackling the job myself and looking for some advice.

Background:
We had an L shaped extension put onto our house (back and side) by previous
occupiers. We want to knock through a door way through the old external wall
and into the new extension.
I've had a look at a few sites and the process seems relatively simple for a
straight forward wall.
http://www.houseprofessionals.com/di...ing_a_wall.htm
However the door way we want to knock through is underneath our stairs so
the only access to fit 2 lintels is from the other side (from the extension)
working towards the house.

Problem:
If I use 2 acrows with strong boys, how do the strong boys fit right through
the cavity to reach the inner line of bricks considering the strong boys are
only 150mm in depth yet the double skinned wall is 310mm?

Another problem is because I have to work from the extension in towards the
house and don't have access the other way, how could I possibly fit the
lintels if the acrows / strong boys are hard against the wall?

Even if the builder does turn up I'd be really curious to know how it is
done.

Any advice would be great.

Stuart

In article ,
Stuart Barrie wrote:
If I use 2 acrows with strong boys, how do the strong boys fit right
through the cavity to reach the inner line of bricks considering the
strong boys are only 150mm in depth yet the double skinned wall is
310mm?

I've just done just this and the strongboys poke all the way through a
solid 9" wall. A cavity wall is obviously a bit thicker - but they will
still support the inner bricks.

Another problem is because I have to work from the extension in towards
the house and don't have access the other way, how could I possibly fit
the lintels if the acrows / strong boys are hard against the wall?

Plenty of manpower to maneuver it between them and swing back into place.

If you had, say, another wall tight to the inside the only option would be
a larger opening than needed to get the lintel in place then acro it and
make good.

--
*Honk if you love peace and quiet.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Stuart Barrie wrote:
If I use 2 acrows with strong boys, how do the strong boys fit right
through the cavity to reach the inner line of bricks considering the
strong boys are only 150mm in depth yet the double skinned wall is
310mm?

I've just done just this and the strongboys poke all the way through a
solid 9" wall. A cavity wall is obviously a bit thicker - but they will
still support the inner bricks.

Another problem is because I have to work from the extension in towards
the house and don't have access the other way, how could I possibly fit
the lintels if the acrows / strong boys are hard against the wall?

Plenty of manpower to maneuver it between them and swing back into place.

If you had, say, another wall tight to the inside the only option would be
a larger opening than needed to get the lintel in place then acro it and
make good.

Thanks Dave.
The only strongboys I have seen are 6" so hence my reservations about going
all the way through an external wall. Did you hire yours?
The inside of the wall is where the top of my stairs runs so there is no
access at all. I'm not sure what you mean re "put the lintel in place and
then acro it". Does the acro not have to be there permanently until the
lintel has been put in and the mortar cured?

Cheers.

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:35:11 +0100, Stuart Barrie wrote:

After my builder hasn't showed for the 3rd time again without as much as
a call I'm contemplating tackling the job myself and looking for some
advice.

Background:
We had an L shaped extension put onto our house (back and side) by
previous occupiers. We want to knock through a door way through the old
external wall and into the new extension.
I've had a look at a few sites and the process seems relatively simple
for a straight forward wall.
http://www.houseprofessionals.com/di...ing_a_wall.htm
However the door way we want to knock through is underneath our stairs
so the only access to fit 2 lintels is from the other side (from the
extension) working towards the house.

Problem:
If I use 2 acrows with strong boys, how do the strong boys fit right
through the cavity to reach the inner line of bricks considering the
strong boys are only 150mm in depth yet the double skinned wall is
310mm?

Another problem is because I have to work from the extension in towards
the house and don't have access the other way, how could I possibly fit
the lintels if the acrows / strong boys are hard against the wall?

Even if the builder does turn up I'd be really curious to know how it is
done.

Any advice would be great.

Stuart

==================================
For a standard door opening a single acrow with strongboy (or two acrows,
one either side, with a single needle) is probably sufficient to support
the brickwork. You should get a competent professional to confirm this in
your particular case. There is a 'self-corbelling effect' above openings;
only a small triangular section of brickwork above the opening can
actually fall out.

If you do use this method you'll be able to slide the lintel in at an
angle from one side quite easily without interference from the central
acrow.

Cic.
--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

In article ,
Stuart Barrie wrote:
If you had, say, another wall tight to the inside the only option
would be a larger opening than needed to get the lintel in place then
acro it and make good.

Thanks Dave. The only strongboys I have seen are 6" so hence my
reservations about going all the way through an external wall. Did you
hire yours?

Yes - Hire Services. They only seemed to have the one type which goes all
the way through. Incidentally, I used them at both ends of the acro as it
was for a first floor window.


The inside of the wall is where the top of my stairs runs so
there is no access at all. I'm not sure what you mean re "put the
lintel in place and then acro it". Does the acro not have to be there
permanently until the lintel has been put in and the mortar cured?

If you had to cut a hole large enough to get the lintel in from outside
past the acro - rather than just the correct sized slot - you'd use an
extra acro (or preferably a pair) to hold it in place while you make good
the brickwork back to size of the opening for the door or whatever.

--
*If you can't see my mirrors, I'm doing my hair*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Cicero wrote:

For a standard door opening a single acrow with strongboy (or two acrows,
one either side, with a single needle) is probably sufficient to support
the brickwork. You should get a competent professional to confirm this in
your particular case. There is a 'self-corbelling effect' above openings;
only a small triangular section of brickwork above the opening can
actually fall out.


That "small triangular section" is easily enough to kill you, so
please do not attempt to trivialise it.

This is a job that should not be attempted by an amateur.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Stuart Barrie wrote:
If you had, say, another wall tight to the inside the only option
would be a larger opening than needed to get the lintel in place then
acro it and make good.

Thanks Dave. The only strongboys I have seen are 6" so hence my
reservations about going all the way through an external wall. Did you
hire yours?

Yes - Hire Services. They only seemed to have the one type which goes all
the way through. Incidentally, I used them at both ends of the acro as it
was for a first floor window.


The inside of the wall is where the top of my stairs runs so
there is no access at all. I'm not sure what you mean re "put the
lintel in place and then acro it". Does the acro not have to be there
permanently until the lintel has been put in and the mortar cured?

If you had to cut a hole large enough to get the lintel in from outside
past the acro - rather than just the correct sized slot - you'd use an
extra acro (or preferably a pair) to hold it in place while you make good
the brickwork back to size of the opening for the door or whatever.


It's Acrow, not "acro". Acrow was the name of the company that made
them, along with Bailey bridges and military pontoon systems, but like
Hoover and JCB, Acrow has become the commonly used generic name for
similar products made by other companies.

From Wikipedia:
"In 1935 falsework was revolutionized again by the introduction of the
Adjustable Steel Prop designed by W.A. de Vigier, the founder of Acrow
Ltd. Timber props were virtually eliminated overnight and the name
'Acrow' became synonymous with any steel props used to support
decking, wall formwork or trench sheeting."

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:38:47 +0100, Bruce wrote:

Cicero wrote:

For a standard door opening a single acrow with strongboy (or two
acrows, one either side, with a single needle) is probably sufficient to
support the brickwork. You should get a competent professional to
confirm this in your particular case. There is a 'self-corbelling
effect' above openings; only a small triangular section of brickwork
above the opening can actually fall out.
------------------------------------------


That "small triangular section" is easily enough to kill you, so please
do not attempt to trivialise it.

This is a job that should not be attempted by an amateur.

===================================
I haven't made any attempt to trivialise the "small triangular section"
- simply pointed out that this is the only portion of the brickwork that
could fall out. Most people, especially competent DIY people, are aware
that they could be injured if bricks fall on their head.

This is most definitely a job that is done quite routinely by 'amateurs'
in complete safety and with complete success. I am an 'amateur' or
'DIYer' and I have done this job several times over the past two or three
decades and I have never experienced any problems.

Cic.
--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

Cicero wrote:

I haven't made any attempt to trivialise the "small triangular section"
- simply pointed out that this is the only portion of the brickwork that
could fall out. Most people, especially competent DIY people, are aware
that they could be injured if bricks fall on their head.


Once again you attempt to trivialise it as "if bricks fall on their
head" we are talking about a considerable weight of masonry, not just
a few individual bricks.


This is most definitely a job that is done quite routinely by 'amateurs'


Hospital A&E Departments routinely see such people.

Are you aware of the statistics of accidents, injuries and deaths to
amateur DIYers? They completely dwarf the statistics of accidents,
injuries and deaths to building and construction workers who do it for
a living.

At the root of the problem is people like you who trivialise the risks
and suggest that people should chance an intrinsically hazardous job
themselves rather than having it done professionally.

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:34:32 +0100, Bruce wrote:

Cicero wrote:

I haven't made any attempt to trivialise the "small triangular section"
- simply pointed out that this is the only portion of the brickwork that
could fall out. Most people, especially competent DIY people, are aware
that they could be injured if bricks fall on their head.

--------------------------------------

Once again you attempt to trivialise it as "if bricks fall on their
head" we are talking about a considerable weight of masonry, not just a
few individual bricks.


This is most definitely a job that is done quite routinely by 'amateurs'


Hospital A&E Departments routinely see such people.

Are you aware of the statistics of accidents, injuries and deaths to
amateur DIYers? They completely dwarf the statistics of accidents,
injuries and deaths to building and construction workers who do it for a
living.

At the root of the problem is people like you who trivialise the risks
and suggest that people should chance an intrinsically hazardous job
themselves rather than having it done professionally.

==================================
I'm afraid you're determined to see risk and danger where none exists if
proper care is taken.

This job is intrinsically simple and straightforward whether it's done by
a professional or an 'amateur', provided that it's done to the same
standards. The same tools, the same equipment and the same methods are
available to either professional or DIYer.

As I said previously this job is done quite routinely in complete safety
by DIYers and scaremongering does nothing to help anybody.

This is a DIY group in which people ask for advice about all kinds of
jobs, and they expect to get advice from people who have done the jobs
successfully themselves. The DIY movement took off because people were
being exploited by tradesmen charging outrageous prices for simple work,
and it continues because people generally are prepared to learn the
necessary skills.

If you personally feel that you're not competent to create a door opening
then don't attempt it but others are prepared to learn. Nobody is
persuading you or anyone else to do work they don't feel competent to do.

Cic.
--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

Cicero wrote:

I'm afraid you're determined to see risk and danger where none exists if
proper care is taken.

This job is intrinsically simple and straightforward whether it's done by
a professional or an 'amateur', provided that it's done to the same
standards. The same tools, the same equipment and the same methods are
available to either professional or DIYer.


That's where you make your biggest mistake. You can buy all the fancy
"pro" branded tools you want, but the one thing that is not instantly
available to inexperienced DIYers is knowledge. Knowledge is gained
through education, training and experience.

There are some jobs where this lack of knowledge is not a problem,
such as painting and decorating and other simple DIY tasks. Knowledge
can be gained over time by someone who is careful, patient and willing
to learn, and who takes the time to do a job properly. But in the
case of substantial and inherently risky jobs, especially structural
work, knowledge isn't acquired instantly on a Usenet newsgroup, and
especially not from people like you.

I repeat, you are trivialising what is an inherently risky job. Your
overt encouragement of someone who clearly lacks the necessary
knowledge to do the job confidently and safely is quite reckless.

Your email domain name sounds a warning. "Hellfire" is not something
that could ever be associated with the safe completion of inherently
risky structural work.

On Aug 12, 11:48*am, Bruce wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:





In article ,
* Stuart Barrie wrote:
If you had, say, another wall tight to the inside the only option
would be a larger opening than needed to get the lintel in place then
acro it and make good.

Thanks Dave. The only strongboys I have seen are 6" so hence my
reservations about going all the way through an external wall. Did you
hire yours?

Yes - Hire Services. They only seemed to have the one type which goes all
the way through. Incidentally, I used them at both ends of the acro as it
was for a first floor window.

The inside of the wall is where the top of my stairs runs so
there is no access at all. I'm not sure what you mean re "put the
lintel in place and then acro it". Does the acro not have to be there
permanently until the lintel has been put in and the mortar cured?

If you had to cut a hole large enough to get the lintel in from outside
past the acro - rather than just the correct sized slot - you'd use an
extra acro (or preferably a pair) to hold it in place while you make good
the brickwork back to size of the opening for the door or whatever.

It's Acrow, not "acro". *Acrow was the name of the company that made


Surely "A. Crow" was the name of the lawyer who drew up the patent for
Vigier who was the invento. Vigier was so pleased he named the
company and the device after the lawyer.

BTW, if there is no acess to the 'old' side of the proposed doorway,
what's the point of having the door there? Will it just be a
'cupboard under the stairs'?



Robert

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
For a standard door opening a single acrow with strongboy (or two
acrows, one either side, with a single needle) is probably sufficient
to support the brickwork. You should get a competent professional to
confirm this in your particular case. There is a 'self-corbelling
effect' above openings; only a small triangular section of brickwork
above the opening can actually fall out.


That "small triangular section" is easily enough to kill you, so please
do not attempt to trivialise it.

This is a job that should not be attempted by an amateur.

********. If it's properly supported - and the OP has gone into that - it
will be fine.

--
*I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
I haven't made any attempt to trivialise the "small triangular
section" - simply pointed out that this is the only portion of the
brickwork that could fall out. Most people, especially competent DIY
people, are aware that they could be injured if bricks fall on their
head.


Once again you attempt to trivialise it as "if bricks fall on their
head" we are talking about a considerable weight of masonry, not just
a few individual bricks.

For a standard door opening it would only be a few bricks that could fall
- and indeed the likelihood with a modern wall is that non would even with
no support.


This is most definitely a job that is done quite routinely by
'amateurs'


Hospital A&E Departments routinely see such people.

Are you aware of the statistics of accidents, injuries and deaths to
amateur DIYers? They completely dwarf the statistics of accidents,
injuries and deaths to building and construction workers who do it for
a living.

There are amateurs and amateurs. In the same way as there are pros and
pros. The firm that did one new window opening here didn't bother with any
supports at all. When I did the one above it - with of course far less
weight sitting on it - I did.

At the root of the problem is people like you who trivialise the risks
and suggest that people should chance an intrinsically hazardous job
themselves rather than having it done professionally.

All the properties round here that have collapsed while having work done
on them had professionals doing the work.

--
*Aim Low, Reach Your Goals, Avoid Disappointment *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
This job is intrinsically simple and straightforward whether it's done
by a professional or an 'amateur', provided that it's done to the same
standards. The same tools, the same equipment and the same methods are
available to either professional or DIYer.


That's where you make your biggest mistake. You can buy all the fancy
"pro" branded tools you want, but the one thing that is not instantly
available to inexperienced DIYers is knowledge. Knowledge is gained
through education, training and experience.

Very few would buy acros or strongboys for a one off like this - they'd
hire them. And knowledge and experience is available here. Perhaps you
could start contributing or give up posting - saying you shouldn't be
doing this isn't much use for a DIY group.

There are some jobs where this lack of knowledge is not a problem,
such as painting and decorating and other simple DIY tasks. Knowledge
can be gained over time by someone who is careful, patient and willing
to learn, and who takes the time to do a job properly. But in the
case of substantial and inherently risky jobs, especially structural
work, knowledge isn't acquired instantly on a Usenet newsgroup, and
especially not from people like you.

Good grief. Do you really think the average jobbing builder who does this
sort of thing frequently knows anything about calculating the loads
involved?

--
*For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

RobertL wrote:

Surely "A. Crow" was the name of the lawyer who drew up the patent for
Vigier who was the invento. Vigier was so pleased he named the
company and the device after the lawyer.


I stated "Acrow was the name of the company". Are you disputing that?
Otherwise, why not tell us how Vigier's mother chose his given names?

"RobertL" wrote in message
...
On Aug 12, 11:48 am, Bruce wrote:

BTW, if there is no acess to the 'old' side of the proposed doorway,
what's the point of having the door there? Will it just be a
'cupboard under the stairs'?

There is access to both sides. It means we will be able to access the
downstairs toilet rather than traipsing through the kitchen and down a
passageway. It also means we can enlarge the downstairs toilet as we will be
taking the passageway away.

I've thrown a couple of pictures together if anyone is interested.

http://www.myp3asa.plus.com/extension/extension.jpg

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
Cicero wrote:

I'm afraid you're determined to see risk and danger where none exists if
proper care is taken.

This job is intrinsically simple and straightforward whether it's done by
a professional or an 'amateur', provided that it's done to the same
standards. The same tools, the same equipment and the same methods are
available to either professional or DIYer.


That's where you make your biggest mistake. You can buy all the fancy
"pro" branded tools you want, but the one thing that is not instantly
available to inexperienced DIYers is knowledge. Knowledge is gained
through education, training and experience.

There are some jobs where this lack of knowledge is not a problem,
such as painting and decorating and other simple DIY tasks. Knowledge
can be gained over time by someone who is careful, patient and willing
to learn, and who takes the time to do a job properly. But in the
case of substantial and inherently risky jobs, especially structural
work, knowledge isn't acquired instantly on a Usenet newsgroup, and
especially not from people like you.

I repeat, you are trivialising what is an inherently risky job. Your
overt encouragement of someone who clearly lacks the necessary
knowledge to do the job confidently and safely is quite reckless.

And hence why I was asking on here for advice.
If it was a straight forward lintel with access to both sides I would have
no hesitation doing it. Given that it is more complicated I was asking for
some more advice. I'm grateful to Dave and Cic for their advice but I'm not
that naive to think everything on Usenet is gospel. I think I'm competent
enough to tackle most jobs but am also realistic enough to know when things
are out with my scope but thanks for your concern.

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:03:08 +0100, Bruce wrote:

Cicero wrote:

I'm afraid you're determined to see risk and danger where none exists if
proper care is taken.

This job is intrinsically simple and straightforward whether it's done
by a professional or an 'amateur', provided that it's done to the same
standards. The same tools, the same equipment and the same methods are
available to either professional or DIYer.


That's where you make your biggest mistake. You can buy all the fancy
"pro" branded tools you want, but the one thing that is not instantly
available to inexperienced DIYers is knowledge. Knowledge is gained
through education, training and experience.

There are some jobs where this lack of knowledge is not a problem, such
as painting and decorating and other simple DIY tasks. Knowledge can be
gained over time by someone who is careful, patient and willing to
learn, and who takes the time to do a job properly. But in the case of
substantial and inherently risky jobs, especially structural work,
knowledge isn't acquired instantly on a Usenet newsgroup, and especially
not from people like you.

I repeat, you are trivialising what is an inherently risky job. Your
overt encouragement of someone who clearly lacks the necessary knowledge
to do the job confidently and safely is quite reckless.

Your email domain name sounds a warning. "Hellfire" is not something
that could ever be associated with the safe completion of inherently
risky structural work.

==================================
The sum total of your advice to an experienced DIY person enquiring in a
dedicated DIY group is, "Don't do it, you'll kill yourself". So no advice
at all really.

You say, "Knowledge is gained through education, training and
experience." The average jobbing builder - the professional recommended
by you - has little specific education or training outside his own trade
and he gains his probably limited experience by practising on clients'
properties. In fact most jobbing builders are bricklayers with big ideas
and minimal experience of renovation and alteration work. So no real
education, training or experience for most of the professionals.

As I said earlier, people ask for advice or information in this group
from people with practical experience of the job they're considering and
they can accept or reject the advice as they choose. Your totally
negative advice won't get much work done.

You're clearly determined to persist in your threadbare argument that the
proposed job is too dangerous for an amateur without knowing anything of
the amateur's skill and ability. Well you can have the last pointless
word on the subject if you want because your kind of negativity
contributes nothing useful to the body of knowledge. I doubt if anybody
will learn anything useful from your 'advice'.

Cic.
--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:55:14 +0100, Stuart Barrie wrote:

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
Cicero wrote:

I'm afraid you're determined to see risk and danger where none exists
if proper care is taken.

This job is intrinsically simple and straightforward whether it's done
by a professional or an 'amateur', provided that it's done to the same
standards. The same tools, the same equipment and the same methods are
available to either professional or DIYer.


That's where you make your biggest mistake. You can buy all the fancy
"pro" branded tools you want, but the one thing that is not instantly
available to inexperienced DIYers is knowledge. Knowledge is gained
through education, training and experience.

There are some jobs where this lack of knowledge is not a problem, such
as painting and decorating and other simple DIY tasks. Knowledge can
be gained over time by someone who is careful, patient and willing to
learn, and who takes the time to do a job properly. But in the case of
substantial and inherently risky jobs, especially structural work,
knowledge isn't acquired instantly on a Usenet newsgroup, and
especially not from people like you.

I repeat, you are trivialising what is an inherently risky job. Your
overt encouragement of someone who clearly lacks the necessary
knowledge to do the job confidently and safely is quite reckless.

And hence why I was asking on here for advice. If it was a straight
forward lintel with access to both sides I would have no hesitation
doing it. Given that it is more complicated I was asking for some more
advice. I'm grateful to Dave and Cic for their advice but I'm not that
naive to think everything on Usenet is gospel. I think I'm competent
enough to tackle most jobs but am also realistic enough to know when
things are out with my scope but thanks for your concern.

==================================
This is a sample picture from 'Google' of a strongboy in position:

http://tinyurl.com/6b3k6o

My recollection is that the blade of the tool has an effective length of
about 10" when fully inserted as described in various 'Google' pictures
so it is quite capable of supporting the inner leaf of your wall. In fact
this tool was invented for this kind of use and if used as recommended is
perfectly safe. In my original reply I suggested getting confirmation
from a competent professional by which I meant someone like your local
BCO who will advise you about choice of lintels etc.

The main thing is not to be frightened off by scaremongers who usually
have no advice to offer other than, "Keep well-wrapped in cotton wool."

Cic.
--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

"Stuart Barrie" wrote:


"Bruce" wrote in message
.. .
Cicero wrote:

I'm afraid you're determined to see risk and danger where none exists if
proper care is taken.

This job is intrinsically simple and straightforward whether it's done by
a professional or an 'amateur', provided that it's done to the same
standards. The same tools, the same equipment and the same methods are
available to either professional or DIYer.


That's where you make your biggest mistake. You can buy all the fancy
"pro" branded tools you want, but the one thing that is not instantly
available to inexperienced DIYers is knowledge. Knowledge is gained
through education, training and experience.

There are some jobs where this lack of knowledge is not a problem,
such as painting and decorating and other simple DIY tasks. Knowledge
can be gained over time by someone who is careful, patient and willing
to learn, and who takes the time to do a job properly. But in the
case of substantial and inherently risky jobs, especially structural
work, knowledge isn't acquired instantly on a Usenet newsgroup, and
especially not from people like you.

I repeat, you are trivialising what is an inherently risky job. Your
overt encouragement of someone who clearly lacks the necessary
knowledge to do the job confidently and safely is quite reckless.

And hence why I was asking on here for advice.
If it was a straight forward lintel with access to both sides I would have
no hesitation doing it. Given that it is more complicated I was asking for
some more advice. I'm grateful to Dave and Cic for their advice but I'm not
that naive to think everything on Usenet is gospel. I think I'm competent
enough to tackle most jobs but am also realistic enough to know when things
are out with my scope but thanks for your concern.


You're welcome. We each need to draw the line where our own ability
is not quite enough and the gap cannot be bridged by advice obtained
from a newsgroup.

Different people will draw the line in different places. I tend to be
cautious, partly because experience shows I can turn simple DIY jobs
into difficult ones, and partly because a friend died under several
tons of brick rubble because he decided to have a go himself rather
than get professionals in to do a job that was just a little too
challenging for his own ability.

What concerned me here was that advice was being given without any
consideration of the ability of the individual to do the job. The
macho aspect doesn't help, with the inference that people are wimps if
they won't tackle complex and risky structural work on their own.

Ba11s to that!

My friend's bravado didn't help his wife bring up their three young
children on her own after losing the house and getting into huge debt
in the process because house insurers don't cover the aftermath of
jobs fouled up by inept DIYers. She would have faced bankruptcy if my
friend's employer had not helped out. All because of bravado.

If in doubt, let the experts do it. If they get it wrong, as
sometimes happens, at least they have insurance, and you can always
sue them. And, most important of all, your children will still have a
father.

"Cicero" wrote in message
om...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:55:14 +0100, Stuart Barrie wrote:

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
Cicero wrote:

I'm afraid you're determined to see risk and danger where none exists
if proper care is taken.

This job is intrinsically simple and straightforward whether it's done
by a professional or an 'amateur', provided that it's done to the same
standards. The same tools, the same equipment and the same methods are
available to either professional or DIYer.


That's where you make your biggest mistake. You can buy all the fancy
"pro" branded tools you want, but the one thing that is not instantly
available to inexperienced DIYers is knowledge. Knowledge is gained
through education, training and experience.

There are some jobs where this lack of knowledge is not a problem, such
as painting and decorating and other simple DIY tasks. Knowledge can
be gained over time by someone who is careful, patient and willing to
learn, and who takes the time to do a job properly. But in the case of
substantial and inherently risky jobs, especially structural work,
knowledge isn't acquired instantly on a Usenet newsgroup, and
especially not from people like you.

I repeat, you are trivialising what is an inherently risky job. Your
overt encouragement of someone who clearly lacks the necessary
knowledge to do the job confidently and safely is quite reckless.

And hence why I was asking on here for advice. If it was a straight
forward lintel with access to both sides I would have no hesitation
doing it. Given that it is more complicated I was asking for some more
advice. I'm grateful to Dave and Cic for their advice but I'm not that
naive to think everything on Usenet is gospel. I think I'm competent
enough to tackle most jobs but am also realistic enough to know when
things are out with my scope but thanks for your concern.

==================================
This is a sample picture from 'Google' of a strongboy in position:

http://tinyurl.com/6b3k6o

My recollection is that the blade of the tool has an effective length of
about 10" when fully inserted as described in various 'Google' pictures
so it is quite capable of supporting the inner leaf of your wall. In fact
this tool was invented for this kind of use and if used as recommended is
perfectly safe. In my original reply I suggested getting confirmation
from a competent professional by which I meant someone like your local
BCO who will advise you about choice of lintels etc.

The main thing is not to be frightened off by scaremongers who usually
have no advice to offer other than, "Keep well-wrapped in cotton wool."


Cheers Cic. Yes I had plans drawn up and the BCO altered the type of lintel
required so it's not as if I'm just choosing any old lintel.
10" is a lot more comfortable than what I originally thought they were.
Thanks again.

Cicero wrote:

I doubt if anybody
will learn anything useful from your 'advice'.


They might avoid losing their life through my taking my advice rather
than listening to your reckless nonsense.

In message , Bruce
writes
Cicero wrote:

I doubt if anybody
will learn anything useful from your 'advice'.


They might avoid losing their life through my taking my advice rather
than listening to your reckless nonsense.

You'll be telling me next that it wasn't a good idea to walk across the
caldera of an active volcano


--
geoff

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
Different people will draw the line in different places. I tend to be
cautious, partly because experience shows I can turn simple DIY jobs
into difficult ones, and partly because a friend died under several
tons of brick rubble because he decided to have a go himself rather
than get professionals in to do a job that was just a little too
challenging for his own ability.

Was the job properly supported as the OP proposes?

--
* What do they call a coffee break at the Lipton Tea Company? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Stuart Barrie wrote:
Cheers Cic. Yes I had plans drawn up and the BCO altered the type of
lintel required so it's not as if I'm just choosing any old lintel. 10"
is a lot more comfortable than what I originally thought they were.
Thanks again.

In general a pre stressed concrete lintel that your local BM will stock is
miles over specified for this sort of domestic job.

As regards the strongboys have a look at them at your local hire shop.
They again are miles over specified for this sort of domestic job - as are
acros.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
Different people will draw the line in different places. I tend to be
cautious, partly because experience shows I can turn simple DIY jobs
into difficult ones, and partly because a friend died under several
tons of brick rubble because he decided to have a go himself rather
than get professionals in to do a job that was just a little too
challenging for his own ability.

Was the job properly supported as the OP proposes?


I don't know - I only got to know about it after it had happened.

On Aug 12, 4:23*pm, Bruce wrote:
RobertL wrote:

Surely "A. Crow" was the name of the lawyer who drew up the patent for
Vigier who was the invento. *Vigier was so pleased he named the
company and the device after the lawyer.

I stated "Acrow was the name of the company". *Are you disputing that?


No, I am adding some other information that will be just as
interesting, that the company was named after the lawyer.

I don't know who named the lawyer.

Robert

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
Different people will draw the line in different places. I tend to be
cautious, partly because experience shows I can turn simple DIY jobs
into difficult ones, and partly because a friend died under several
tons of brick rubble because he decided to have a go himself rather
than get professionals in to do a job that was just a little too
challenging for his own ability.

Was the job properly supported as the OP proposes?


I don't know - I only got to know about it after it had happened.

Then it's irrelevant to this thread since the OP is clearly intending
doing the job safely.

Perhaps if your pal had asked here before starting and taken the good
advice available he'd still be alive. It also sounds like he was doing
rather more than just adding a door opening.

--
*What happens if you get scared half to death twice? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 06:51:21 -0700 (PDT) RobertL wrote :
Surely "A. Crow" was the name of the lawyer who drew up the patent for
Vigier who was the invento. Vigier was so pleased he named the
company and the device after the lawyer.

I refer the hon gentleman to an earlier post:

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:54:13 -0000

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
From today's Daily Telegraph:

"William de Vigier, who died on December 20 aged 91, was the
Swiss-born inventor of the Acrow prop.

Arriving in London in 1935 with £50 in his pocket, Bill de Vigier set
up a small workshop under Bow arches in the East End making steel
props which were adjustable for length by means of a robust screw
thread. His ingenious design was at first too revolutionary for a
trade which had relied wastefully since time immemorial on wooden
pole scaffolding, sawn to fit each use; for three months no builder
would listen to him, but eventually a small number - among them the
firm of Sir Robert McAlpine & Sons - began to buy his product.

The solicitor who helped set up de Vigier's company was a Mr A Crowe:
de Vigier adapted his name on the grounds that it would be easy to
pronounce and near the beginning of any alphabetical listing. Hence
the "Acrow prop" entered the language of the building site, finding a
multitude of temporary structural uses. Orders multiplied and by 1939
more than 40,000 Acrow props were in daily use in Britain ....."

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk