Friend has housing association house with single coal fire in lounge
that also feeds back boiler that feeds 3 radiators downstairs,
secondary radiator in lounge then bathroom and kitchen, electric
circulation pump, electric immersion heater back up on hot water
supply. Radiators are from days of british empire and are plumbed in
wide bore pipe, well it aint narrow microbore anyway.

Geniuses at HA have decided to ,er , upgrade the heating system. This
`upgrade` consists of adding 4 extra radiators upstairs, one in each
of 3 bedrooms and one on upstairs landing.

These will all supposedly be heated from the back boiler on the single
fireplace.

Not an expert on thermodynamics but currently the fireplace needs
banked up the chimney to get any heat at all out of the downstairs
radiators, adding another 4 radiators seems pointless and not
inexpensive.

Presume there is a limit to the amount of heat can obtain from a
single fireplace, must be a reason old properties had a fireplace per
room.

Is there an accepted method of calculating heat output and
requirements, for those without a degree in mathematics, to
demonstrate to the HA that they may not be spending money wisely.

Concerned that the additional load on the fire will put friends coal
bills unacceptably high and the property is in dire need of a rewire
which would seem a better use of limited resources.

Any advice gratefully received.

Adam

Hi
Think you need to get the HA inspector round before the work starts.They may
think you have a Baxi gas system with a back boiler not a coal fired one.
Unless I am so out of touch with modern coal heating the open fire with back
boiler was little more than a 2/3 gallon metal container bricked in behind
the grate with a flue diverter in the chimney which forced the hot gases to
be draw around said tank heating it.(like a kettle) .
I saw many in my youth and all were very likely to boil when the fire was
raging.Some did have a few rad's piped in with a Grunfoss pump for
circulation.
Systems are around using dedicated 'Arger' or similar fires but these have
heat exchangers built in and were very good.
In any event a single open grate fireplace would be very unlikely to be able
to supply enough heat to run the system the HA propose,and if it could what
of the H&S aspects of the water at 100+ degrees if the system boils?

See if you can get a CH bod to have a look at it.

HTH
CJ

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:08:27 -0700 (PDT), Adam Aglionby
wrote:

Friend has housing association house with single coal fire in lounge
that also feeds back boiler that feeds 3 radiators downstairs,
secondary radiator in lounge then bathroom and kitchen, electric
circulation pump, electric immersion heater back up on hot water
supply. Radiators are from days of british empire and are plumbed in
wide bore pipe, well it aint narrow microbore anyway.


We have a Parkray that feeds 2 downstairs radiators, 2 bedroom and the
bathroom plus the hot water (backed up by immersion heater). It is a
1980's install and just about copes on a cold winter's day.

Geniuses at HA have decided to ,er , upgrade the heating system. This
`upgrade` consists of adding 4 extra radiators upstairs, one in each
of 3 bedrooms and one on upstairs landing.

I don't think ours would take any more.


These will all supposedly be heated from the back boiler on the single
fireplace.

Not an expert on thermodynamics but currently the fireplace needs
banked up the chimney to get any heat at all out of the downstairs
radiators, adding another 4 radiators seems pointless and not
inexpensive.


Banking up isn't the best way for ours to work. It needs enough air
to circulate through for the backboiler to be effective though the
sides of ours are also part of the boiler/tank.


Presume there is a limit to the amount of heat can obtain from a
single fireplace, must be a reason old properties had a fireplace per
room.

Is there an accepted method of calculating heat output and
requirements, for those without a degree in mathematics, to
demonstrate to the HA that they may not be spending money wisely.

Concerned that the additional load on the fire will put friends coal
bills unacceptably high and the property is in dire need of a rewire
which would seem a better use of limited resources.

Any advice gratefully received.


They would burn less fuel and get more heat if they used a solid-fuel
stove (eg one with closing glass doors). This is a route we are
thinking of as one big disadvantage of an open fire is the amount of
air it needs to draw in.

Have a look around http://www.solidfuel.co.uk/ you might find what you
& your friends need from there.


--
AnthonyL

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:08:27 -0700 (PDT), Adam Aglionby wrote:

Presume there is a limit to the amount of heat can obtain from a
single fireplace, must be a reason old properties had a fireplace per
room.

I'm no expert on this, other than living in a coal heated house for many
years.

I cannot see any reason why a single coal fire won't heat a house fine, in
my parents house its always boiling ( i wear shorts in the middle of winter
when visiting). Its going to depend on the exact type of fire though, the
newer(well newer than 20 years ago) were a lot better than the very old
ones.

Obvious question, this one has a pump thats needed to provide heat to the
downstairs radiators, has the one your talking about? They will not work
well at all without it.

Steve

On 24 Jul, 15:08, Adam Aglionby wrote:

Geniuses at HA have decided to ,er , upgrade the heating system. This
`upgrade` consists of adding 4 extra radiators upstairs, one in each
of 3 bedrooms and one on upstairs landing.

These will all supposedly be heated from the back boiler on the single
fireplace.

What do you mean by "fireplace" and "back boiler" ?

If it's an old open hearth, then that back boiler is designed for
indirect heating of domestic hot water (coil in the tank upstairs).
The "boiler" is also just a simple sheet copper tank with barely any
heating surface. It'll heat a bath, but it's just not meant to run
heating.

If it's an enclosed Parkray or Rayburn with a halfway decent back
boiler in there, it's designed to run heating too and according to the
varying size of it (which should be on a data plate somewhere) may be
capable of heating the Albert Hall. My parent's one, in their small
bungalow, was sized on that basis and so makes it insufferably hot
whenever you light it.

Either of these will need a circulator pump installed and running if
you expect to get useful flow through radiators. They'll do fat-pipe
water heating in a tank upstairs by thermosyphon alone, but expecting
to drive the longer, thinner and horizontal pipe runs of radiators is
too much to ask without assistance.

Fuel consumption won't increase, as more demand doesn't increase draft
beyond the basic capacity, but performance won't increase either. Your
radiators are likely to get luke warm at best.

Andy Dingley wrote:

If it's an old open hearth, then that back boiler is designed for
indirect heating of domestic hot water (coil in the tank upstairs).
The "boiler" is also just a simple sheet copper tank with barely any
heating surface. It'll heat a bath, but it's just not meant to run
heating.

I have a back boiler in the open fireplace in my living room - it can
easily run 7 radiators, one of which is a very large double.

If it's an enclosed Parkray or Rayburn with a halfway decent back
boiler in there, it's designed to run heating too and according to the
varying size of it (which should be on a data plate somewhere) may be
capable of heating the Albert Hall. My parent's one, in their small
bungalow, was sized on that basis and so makes it insufferably hot
whenever you light it.

I also have a Rayburn in the kitchen (converted to oil).

The pumped central heating can be run from either boiler.

On Jul 25, 5:18*pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 24 Jul, 15:08, Adam Aglionby wrote:

Geniuses at HA have decided to ,er , upgrade the heating system. This
`upgrade` consists of adding 4 extra radiators upstairs, one in each
of 3 bedrooms *and one on upstairs landing.

These will all supposedly be heated from thebackboileron the single
fireplace.

What do you mean by "fireplace" and "backboiler" ?

If it's an old open hearth, then thatbackboileris designed for
indirect heating of domestic hot water (coil in the tank upstairs).
The "boiler" is also just a simple sheet copper tank with barely any
heating surface. It'll heat a bath, but it's just not meant to run
heating.

That appears to be creature, tank in kitchen on ground level with
circulation pump.


If it's an enclosed Parkray or Rayburn with a halfway decentbackboilerin there, it's designed to run heating too and according to the
varying size of it (which should be on a data plate somewhere) may be
capable of heating the Albert Hall. My parent's one, in their small
bungalow, was sized on that basis and so makes it insufferably hot
whenever you light it.

Either of these will need a circulator pump installed and running if
you expect to get useful flow through radiators. They'll do fat-pipe
water heating in a tank upstairs by thermosyphon alone, but expecting
to drive the longer, thinner and horizontal pipe runs of radiators is
too much to ask without assistance.
Fuel consumption won't increase, as more demand doesn't increase draft
beyond the basic capacity, but performance won't increase either. Your
radiators are likely to get luke warm at best.

Luke warm describes current radiator heating level , adding more
radiators really is going to be pointless.

Was hoping that there was some numbers in BTU or whatever on output of
a single open hearth fire with old style back boiler so could do rough
comparison with typical size of gas boiler that would be employed to
heat a 3 bedroom house.

As the water tank upstairs just failed drenching a bedroom, concerned
about overall condition and safety of existing installation never mind
trying to make ill advised extensions.

Being a Housing Assosciation probably considerable politics involved,
suspect that the money has been obtained in specific regard to
`upgrading ` heating.

Wiring is , er, below acceptable modern standards and distinct lack of
enthusiasm for a re-wire from the HA, with the house wrecking that
goes into a typical 1 day public housing rewire suspect Bodgit and
Scarper (Heating Engineers) will be similar, rather try and get a bit
of joined up thinking about basic services in their housing stock.

Numbers are something that might make a more digestible one page
executive summary for the bean counters.

Thanks
Adam

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adam Aglionby
saying something like:

Was hoping that there was some numbers in BTU or whatever on output of
a single open hearth fire with old style back boiler so could do rough
comparison with typical size of gas boiler that would be employed to
heat a 3 bedroom house.

Better late than never, here's an installation leaflet for a Grant back
boiler - pay particular attention to the bottom of page 4 for the info
you seek.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/009a695789.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c47d273fb0.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5502af56d8.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f28d531a4e.jpg
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

On Aug 9, 12:11*am, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adam Aglionby
saying something like:

Was hoping that there was some numbers in BTU or whatever on output of
a single open hearth fire with old style back boiler so could do rough
comparison with typical size of gas boiler that would be employed to
heat a 3 bedroom house.

Better late than never, here's an installation leaflet for a Grant back
boiler - pay particular attention to the bottom of page 4 for the info
you seek.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/009a695789.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c47d273fb0.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5502af56d8.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f28d531a4e.jpg
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
*How much more suspenseful can you get?"
*- House

Much appreciated Dave , thanks.

Suprising numbers your kindly provided data giving 10kW of heat at
just over 2Kg burn per hour of coal.

Using whole house boiler guestimator at:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/.../boilersizing/

Gives 10kW as about right size for 3 bed semi. Darn, dosen`t tally
with experience but can see how it was sold to Housing Asosciation as
viable plan.

Thanks again.
Adam

On Aug 9, 10:20*pm, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On Aug 9, 12:11*am, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:



We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adam Aglionby
saying something like:

Was hoping that there was some numbers in BTU or whatever on output of
a single open hearth fire with old style back boiler so could do rough
comparison with typical size of gas boiler that would be employed to
heat a 3 bedroom house.

Better late than never, here's an installation leaflet for a Grant back
boiler - pay particular attention to the bottom of page 4 for the info
you seek.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/009a695789.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c47d273fb0.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5502af56d8.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f28d531a4e.jpg
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
*How much more suspenseful can you get?"
*- House

Much appreciated Dave , thanks.

Suprising numbers your kindly provided data giving 10kW of heat at
just over 2Kg burn per hour of coal.

Using whole house boiler guestimator at:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...lculators/boil...

Gives 10kW as about right size for 3 bed semi. Darn, dosen`t tally
with experience but can see how it was sold to Housing Asosciation as
viable plan.

Thanks again.
Adam

Thought there was something optimistic in the numbers.
The Queen Star fire must be approaching 100% efficiency doing much
better than a coal fired pwer station with fluidised bed furnaces,
according to that bastion of accuracy Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal

he energy density of coal is 6.67 kW·h/kg Of the 6.67 kW·h of energy
per kilogram of coal, about 30% of that can successfully be turned
into electricity—the rest is waste heat. Coal power plants obtain
approximately 2.0 kW·h per kg of burned coal.

Even as a water boiler/air heater the Queen Star claims 11.9kW/H at
2.12Kg/h of coal , should have a line of Queen Stars at Drax :-)

Hmmm, so can see how the numbers could have been made to seem
convincing though like CFL output they never quite measure up.
Cheers.
Adam

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adam Aglionby
saying something like:

Much appreciated Dave , thanks.

No problem. I knew I had it somewhere...

Suprising numbers your kindly provided data giving 10kW of heat at
just over 2Kg burn per hour of coal.

I'd take those figures with a pinch of salt anyway - probably in ideal
conditions in their workshop. The Grant BB is a fairly decent one, as
far as I've seen, and if the house is reasonably well insulated the
useful output can run a hot cylinder and a few rads to good effect. I'd
preferably fit one to a fireplace with an outside air feed though,
getting round the draughtiness problem. It still doesn't address the
overall efficiency question - it's still pretty crap when most of the
heat is going up the chimney.

--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adam Aglionby
saying something like:

Even as a water boiler/air heater the Queen Star claims 11.9kW/H at
2.12Kg/h of coal , should have a line of Queen Stars at Drax :-)

Nay lad, just one giant Queen Star would do it, surely. I wouldn't want
to see the hearth, though.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

replying to Andy Dingley, Tony wrote:
Hi I have a 16" dunsley enterprise open coal fire with a draw rod to either
draw the fire to the back boiler or just allow the flame to burn normally.. my
fire has a water pump which heats up all the radiators in my home (3 doubles
and 5 singles) and believe me when I say that you can't leave your hands on
them because they get unbelievable hot..you do have to keep the for backed up
at first but when the water is hot I just keep the fire ticking over..cheaper
and more health than gas is say.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...cy-496109-.htm

On 08/11/2017 13:44, Tony wrote:
replying to Andy Dingley, Tony wrote:
Hi I have a 16" dunsley enterprise open coal fire with a draw rod to either
draw the fire to the back boiler or just allow the flame to burn
normally.. my
fire has a water pump which heats up all the radiators in my home (3
doubles
and 5 singles) and believe me when I say that you can't leave your hands on
them because they get unbelievable hot..you do have to keep the for
backed up
at first but when the water is hot I just keep the fire ticking
over..cheaper
and more health than gas is say.


Read the bloody date of the post that you are replying to !!.

On Thursday, 24 July 2008 15:08:27 UTC+1, Adam Aglionby wrote:
Friend has housing association house with single coal fire in lounge
that also feeds back boiler that feeds 3 radiators downstairs,
secondary radiator in lounge then bathroom and kitchen, electric
circulation pump, electric immersion heater back up on hot water
supply. Radiators are from days of british empire and are plumbed in
wide bore pipe, well it aint narrow microbore anyway.

Geniuses at HA have decided to ,er , upgrade the heating system. This
`upgrade` consists of adding 4 extra radiators upstairs, one in each
of 3 bedrooms and one on upstairs landing.

These will all supposedly be heated from the back boiler on the single
fireplace.

Not an expert on thermodynamics but currently the fireplace needs
banked up the chimney to get any heat at all out of the downstairs
radiators, adding another 4 radiators seems pointless and not
inexpensive.

Presume there is a limit to the amount of heat can obtain from a
single fireplace, must be a reason old properties had a fireplace per
room.

Is there an accepted method of calculating heat output and
requirements, for those without a degree in mathematics, to
demonstrate to the HA that they may not be spending money wisely.

Concerned that the additional load on the fire will put friends coal
bills unacceptably high and the property is in dire need of a rewire
which would seem a better use of limited resources.

Any advice gratefully received.

Adam

Probably 5% if you're lucky.
As a heating system, totally obsolete.
You won't get any more heat from the boiler with more radiators.
Just distribute what you've got more thinly.

On Saturday, 9 August 2008 22:20:11 UTC+1, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On Aug 9, 12:11Â*am, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adam Aglionby
saying something like:

Was hoping that there was some numbers in BTU or whatever on output of
a single open hearth fire with old style back boiler so could do rough
comparison with typical size of gas boiler that would be employed to
heat a 3 bedroom house.

Better late than never, here's an installation leaflet for a Grant back
boiler - pay particular attention to the bottom of page 4 for the info
you seek.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/009a695789.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c47d273fb0.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5502af56d8.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f28d531a4e.jpg
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
Â*How much more suspenseful can you get?"
Â*- House

Much appreciated Dave , thanks.

Suprising numbers your kindly provided data giving 10kW of heat at
just over 2Kg burn per hour of coal.

Using whole house boiler guestimator at:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/.../boilersizing/

Gives 10kW as about right size for 3 bed semi. Darn, dosen`t tally
with experience but can see how it was sold to Housing Asosciation as
viable plan.

The important factor here is the efficiency of the boiler.
Very low in this case.
And no-one can say what heat output is needed without assessing the heat loss of the building.

All forms of solid fuel heating are expensive these days unless you are talking about a free wood supply.
This largely due to the inherent inefficiency of solid fuel boilers.

Plus the fuel has to be stored, boilers have to be refueled and cleaned.

That is the problem wither that interface its not always as easy to know.
Isimply do not understand why its interface cannot actually do a date filter
and end the problem for ever. other web based interfaces to Usenet seem to
manage it.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Andrew" wrote in message
news
On 08/11/2017 13:44, Tony wrote:
replying to Andy Dingley, Tony wrote:
Hi I have a 16" dunsley enterprise open coal fire with a draw rod to
either
draw the fire to the back boiler or just allow the flame to burn
normally.. my
fire has a water pump which heats up all the radiators in my home (3
doubles
and 5 singles) and believe me when I say that you can't leave your hands
on
them because they get unbelievable hot..you do have to keep the for
backed up
at first but when the water is hot I just keep the fire ticking
over..cheaper
and more health than gas is say.


Read the bloody date of the post that you are replying to !!.

On Thursday, 9 November 2017 08:23:37 UTC, harry wrote:
On Saturday, 9 August 2008 22:20:11 UTC+1, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On Aug 9, 12:11Â*am, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adam Aglionby
saying something like:

Was hoping that there was some numbers in BTU or whatever on output of
a single open hearth fire with old style back boiler so could do rough
comparison with typical size of gas boiler that would be employed to
heat a 3 bedroom house.

Better late than never, here's an installation leaflet for a Grant back
boiler - pay particular attention to the bottom of page 4 for the info
you seek.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/009a695789.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c47d273fb0.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5502af56d8.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f28d531a4e.jpg
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
Â*How much more suspenseful can you get?"
Â*- House

Much appreciated Dave , thanks.

Suprising numbers your kindly provided data giving 10kW of heat at
just over 2Kg burn per hour of coal.

Using whole house boiler guestimator at:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/.../boilersizing/

Gives 10kW as about right size for 3 bed semi. Darn, dosen`t tally
with experience but can see how it was sold to Housing Asosciation as
viable plan.

The important factor here is the efficiency of the boiler.
Very low in this case.
And no-one can say what heat output is needed without assessing the heat loss of the building.

All forms of solid fuel heating are expensive these days unless you are talking about a free wood supply.
This largely due to the inherent inefficiency of solid fuel boilers.

Plus the fuel has to be stored, boilers have to be refueled and cleaned.

The problem with wood is the price of labour. Few people regard the activity as worthwhile now.

As has been said, an open fireplace is hopelessly inefficient and simply not fit to heat a house. Aren't there energy efficiency requiremenets nowadays for CH?


NT

On 09/11/2017 08:15, harry wrote:

On Thursday, 24 July 2008 15:08:27 UTC+1, Adam Aglionby wrote:

Friend has housing association house with single coal fire in lounge

As a heating system, totally obsolete.

appropriate choice of word...

Timely advise from harry as usual. What next, up to the minute style
guidance for the best combination of flairs and tank tops?



--
Cheers,

John.

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