I am fitting new, linked smoke (or heat in kitchen) alarms. After
reading the words of wisdom here and elsewhere I am (famous last words)
fairly confident about wiring them. But I thought I might as well also
meet the current regs on their *location* and that has me stumped.

Approved document B1 looks easy peasy for a small Victorian terrace:
interlinked detectors on each storey within 7.5m of each room.

On the other hand lots of other documents (eg the 2002 Onsite Guide) say
there should be an alarm within 3 metres of any bedroom door. That's a
bit tougher in a typically long, thin house. But, thinks I, it's not a
problem in practice as I was always planning on a detector in the small
bedroom at the back of the house (because it doubles as study with
assorted PCs often left on unattended). But hang on: does it count if
it is *within* the bedroom rather than in the circulation space outside?
I'd be very grateful for pointers to the answer to that question.

On the third hand, if I put a detector outside the door to that bedroom
but within 3 metres it will be less than 3 metres from the bathroom door
and several guidance documents say that is a no-no. Can anyone point me
to the source of that rule and/or whether it trumps the "3 metres from
the bedroom" rule please?

I guess the underlying principles in this a you need alarms in enough
places to detect fires, and near enough to people to wake them, but not
where false alarms will lead people to disable them. But the way it is
articulated in the guidance has defeated me. And while there may be
rules for the pros which avoid the Catch 22, there's no way I'm giving
the BSI £180 for BS 5839-6:2004. (So much for making the law
accessible!)

--
Robin

"neverwas" wrote
I am fitting new, linked smoke (or heat in kitchen) alarms. After reading
the words of wisdom here and elsewhere I am (famous last words) fairly
confident about wiring them. But I thought I might as well also meet the
current regs on their *location* and that has me stumped.

snip...

I bought AICO alarms who had an obliging technical department.
Might be worthwhile trying the manufacture?

Phil

Owain wrote:

neverwas wrote:

On the other hand lots of other documents (eg the 2002 Onsite Guide)
say there should be an alarm within 3 metres of any bedroom door.
That's a bit tougher in a typically long, thin house. But, thinks I,
it's not a problem in practice as I was always planning on a detector
in the small bedroom at the back of the house (because it doubles as
study with assorted PCs often left on unattended). But hang on: does
it count if it is *within* the bedroom rather than in the circulation
space outside? I'd be very grateful for pointers to the answer to that
question.

Fire brigade came out this week to change our smoke detectors and we got
a detailed talking to. If I was in your position, I wouldn't put a smoke
detector in a room. The one we have on the landing can be triggered by
me opening the bathroom door, as others have said, I have even set off
the one downstairs by making some well browned toast. If you have a long
landing, there is nothing wrong with putting more detectors in it.

We got told to close all doors at night etc., but the one thing they
didn't mention was keeping a torch at the side of the bed. Wife was away
for 3 months and I was in my hobby room when I had a power cut. You have
no idea how difficult it was for me to find my way down stairs. It must
have took me enough time to get unconscious from the smoke. Normally,
you feel your way round, but with 2 open bedroom doors (though it was
dark, I don't tend to close the doors until bedtime, for airing
reasons), I was totally lost.

IMO no, as if inside a bedroom the sound would have to travel through
two bedroom doors to be audible at the bedhead in an adjacent bedroom.

On the third hand, if I put a detector outside the door to that
bedroom but within 3 metres it will be less than 3 metres from the
bathroom door and several guidance documents say that is a no-no. Can
anyone point me to the source of that rule and/or whether it trumps
the "3 metres from the bedroom" rule please?

Put another sensor up. As I said above.

Personally I would put a detector/sounder in every bedroom (a) to ensure
adequate volume at the bedhead,

Believe me, unless you are severely deaf, you will hear them through a
door. And the over riding factor of having a smoke alarm is to warn you
of smoke coming from somewhere else, other than the room you are in.

Dave

I bought AICO alarms who had an obliging technical department.
Might be worthwhile trying the manufacture?

Thanks for that good idea. Email sent to Kidde today.
--
Robin

IMO no, as if inside a bedroom the sound would have to travel through
two bedroom doors to be audible at the bedhead in an adjacent bedroom.

Thanks but I don't think that is really the issue here. The alarms have
to be interconnected so if the smoke arises within the small bedroom
anyone in the other 2 bedrooms will be able to hear the alarm outside
(less than a metre from their doors) and another on the ceiling below.
I may yet fit alarms inside those bedrooms too.

Personally I would put a detector/sounder in every bedroom (a) to
ensure adequate volume at the bedhead, (b) to provide the earliest
possible alarm from someone smoking in bed. Unless you have a *very*
long thin house with a windy corridor or beams across the ceilings
you /probably/ then only require one above the stairwell in the
corridor.
I may well do so. But even in a small house it is more than 3 metres
from the bedroom door to the alarm I have fitted above the stairwell.
So I'd still like to know if that meets the requirement to have one
within 3 metres of the bedroom in the circulation space - if there is
such a requirement - or if I am just failing to read the documents
properly. (Methinks I really do need to get out more/get on with all
the other jobs.)

--
Robin

Put another sensor up. As I said above.

Thanks for the response. All good stuff so far as I can tell. But my
head scratching is partly because I simply cannot put an alarm within 3
metres of the bedroom door which is also more than 3 metres from the
bathroom door.

In the end I'll probably put one near the circulation space near the
bedroom door as we get little steam from the bathroom. (But I suppose
that may change if I ever get around to insulating the bathroom.)

--
Robin

neverwas wrote:
I am fitting new, linked smoke (or heat in kitchen) alarms. After
reading the words of wisdom here and elsewhere I am (famous last words)
fairly confident about wiring them. But I thought I might as well also
meet the current regs on their *location* and that has me stumped.

Approved document B1 looks easy peasy for a small Victorian terrace:
interlinked detectors on each storey within 7.5m of each room.

On the other hand lots of other documents (eg the 2002 Onsite Guide) say
there should be an alarm within 3 metres of any bedroom door. That's a
bit tougher in a typically long, thin house. But, thinks I, it's not a
problem in practice as I was always planning on a detector in the small
bedroom at the back of the house (because it doubles as study with
assorted PCs often left on unattended). But hang on: does it count if
it is *within* the bedroom rather than in the circulation space outside?
I'd be very grateful for pointers to the answer to that question.


No, its useless there by and large.


On the third hand, if I put a detector outside the door to that bedroom
but within 3 metres it will be less than 3 metres from the bathroom door
and several guidance documents say that is a no-no. Can anyone point me
to the source of that rule and/or whether it trumps the "3 metres from
the bedroom" rule please?


You need to talk to either the fire officer at the local fire sttaion,
or a BCO.

I guess the underlying principles in this a you need alarms in enough
places to detect fires, and near enough to people to wake them, but not
where false alarms will lead people to disable them. But the way it is
articulated in the guidance has defeated me. And while there may be
rules for the pros which avoid the Catch 22, there's no way I'm giving
the BSI £180 for BS 5839-6:2004. (So much for making the law
accessible!)

Smoke alarms are not really there to detect fires, so much as to detect
when exit routes are in danger of being blocked by fire IIRC..

That's why they are generally in CORRIDOORS. I have one in a bedroom
ONLY because that has an en-suite that is only accessible via that
bedroom. Could get trapped in the en-suite you see.


I have two on upper landings, and both will go off if steamy bathroom
doors are left open: thats the reason for the bathroom rule: people
might turn the buggers off if they false alarm too much.

Fire regs at this level are all about getting people safely out of blind
alleys before they get trapped. And having window big enough to rescue
people through as well.


Bsically draw lines from every room to the outside..your escape routes.

Fit alarms past the first barrier between any living space and that
route, and all along the route at about 3 m intervals.

So lets say you have several bedrooms and a bathroom on a floor, and the
staircase is your exit route: you put an alarm on the landing
somewhere..tow if its more than 3m long, sited as far away from te
bathroom as you can..then every landing down the staircase should have
another one - or more, all the way to the front
door/backdoor/sidedoor/garden door.

The only time you alarm a room is if it is an escape route from a room
beyond.

neverwas wrote:
Put another sensor up. As I said above.

Thanks for the response. All good stuff so far as I can tell. But my
head scratching is partly because I simply cannot put an alarm within 3
metres of the bedroom door which is also more than 3 metres from the
bathroom door.

In the end I'll probably put one near the circulation space near the
bedroom door as we get little steam from the bathroom. (But I suppose
that may change if I ever get around to insulating the bathroom.)

Put it as far away from the bathrom as you can, and fit extractor fans.

neverwas wrote:
Put another sensor up. As I said above.

Thanks for the response. All good stuff so far as I can tell. But my
head scratching is partly because I simply cannot put an alarm within 3
metres of the bedroom door which is also more than 3 metres from the
bathroom door.

For what is it worth, I had three interlinked alarms in the last house -
one on each floor. The first and second floor ones were within three
meters of all the rooms on that storey - including bath and shower
rooms. Never had any problems with steam triggering them - even before I
fitted humidistat controlled fans to the bathrooms.

In the end I'll probably put one near the circulation space near the
bedroom door as we get little steam from the bathroom. (But I suppose
that may change if I ever get around to insulating the bathroom.)

Note also the ionisation and the optical ones behave differently with
non smoke triggers.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Dave wrote:

We got told to close all doors at night etc., but the one thing they
didn't mention was keeping a torch at the side of the bed. Wife was away
for 3 months and I was in my hobby room when I had a power cut. You have
no idea how difficult it was for me to find my way down stairs. It must
have took me enough time to get unconscious from the smoke. Normally,
you feel your way round, but with 2 open bedroom doors (though it was
dark, I don't tend to close the doors until bedtime, for airing
reasons), I was totally lost.

Non maintained emergency lights are cheap and easy to fit these days -
just feed them from the nearest suitable lighting circuit. A couple in
strategic places makes a massive difference to your ability to navigate
in the dark or possibly when your vision is obscured. It means you can
always have light when you need it.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

Dave wrote:

We got told to close all doors at night etc., but the one thing they
didn't mention was keeping a torch at the side of the bed. Wife was
away for 3 months and I was in my hobby room when I had a power cut.
You have no idea how difficult it was for me to find my way down
stairs. It must have took me enough time to get unconscious from the
smoke. Normally, you feel your way round, but with 2 open bedroom
doors (though it was dark, I don't tend to close the doors until
bedtime, for airing reasons), I was totally lost.


Non maintained emergency lights are cheap and easy to fit these days -
just feed them from the nearest suitable lighting circuit. A couple in
strategic places makes a massive difference to your ability to navigate
in the dark or possibly when your vision is obscured. It means you can
always have light when you need it.

I am rapidly coming round to that idea, but it is the long days and
total fulness of inertia that is stopping me. :-(

It was a real eye opener that I could not navigate my own house that
shocked me though. We have only been in it since 1978 :-(

I will buy some mains backed up (charged) lighting that will come on in
the event of a power cut.


Thanks

Dave

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:57:20 GMT, a particular chimpanzee, "neverwas"
randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

On the third hand, if I put a detector outside the door to that bedroom
but within 3 metres it will be less than 3 metres from the bathroom door
and several guidance documents say that is a no-no. Can anyone point me
to the source of that rule and/or whether it trumps the "3 metres from
the bedroom" rule please?

BS 5839-6 says, "Most unwanted alarms occur during cooking activities.
Ionization chamber smoke detectors are significantly more sensitive
than optical smoke detectors to products that occur during toasting of
bread, and during frying and grilling. Thus, optical smoke detectors
are less likely than ionization chamber smoke detectors to respond to
fumes from cooking. This makes the optical smoke detector much more
suitable than ionization chamber detectors for installation in
hallways and circulation spaces into which kitchens open. It is
important that this information is conveyed to householders,
particularly by those responsible for advising householders,
including, for example, fire and rescue services.

"On the other hand, optical smoke detectors are much more prone than
ionization chamber smoke detectors to produce false alarms if exposed
to steam. Optical smoke detectors are also generally more likely to
produce false alarms when exposed to dense tobacco smoke. Ingress of
dust can also cause instability of optical smoke detectors, and result
in constant false alarms. Thus, if optical smoke detectors are
installed close to poorly ventilated bathrooms, shower rooms, kitchens
or rooms in which people smoke heavily, false alarms might occur; in
each of these cases, other than close to kitchens, ionization chamber
smoke detectors would be less likely to produce false alarms. False
alarms can also occur if smoke detectors are installed in dusty
spaces, such as roof voids, and, in such situations, if smoke
detectors are necessary, ionization chamber smoke detectors are
preferable".

"Optical smoke detectors should not be sited in close proximity to
rooms from which steam may issue, such as poorly ventilated bathrooms,
shower rooms and certain kitchens".

'Close proximity' may be less than 3m, depending on the air flows &
where the steam is likely to go. If not, then an ionising detector may
be better. Or proper ventilation to the bathroom.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

BS 5839-6 says, "Most unwanted alarms occur during cooking ....



snip


Many thanks. That's good enough for me as an explanation of the "3
metres from a bathroom" 'rule'. I'll put an ionisation detector outside
the bedroom near the bathroom (and an optical inside the bedroom as it
is a potential escape route).

It leaves me feeling a bit depressed though at the compliance cost of
reading the guidance. What you quote seems to me easy enough for a
layman (who takes care) to construe. But I have so far not found a
local library which admits to having BS 5839-6. And I have searched all
the London boroughs via
http://www.londonlibraries.org.uk/will/LibSearch.aspx

--
Robin

neverwas wrote:

BS 5839-6 says, "Most unwanted alarms occur during cooking ....




snip


Many thanks. That's good enough for me as an explanation of the "3
metres from a bathroom" 'rule'. I'll put an ionisation detector outside
the bedroom near the bathroom (and an optical inside the bedroom as it
is a potential escape route).

It leaves me feeling a bit depressed though at the compliance cost of
reading the guidance. What you quote seems to me easy enough for a
layman (who takes care) to construe. But I have so far not found a
local library which admits to having BS 5839-6. And I have searched all
the London boroughs via
http://www.londonlibraries.org.uk/will/LibSearch.aspx

Up here in Lancashire a couple or so years ago and I needed to read a
BS. I couldn't download it or even find it on the web, so in desperation
I went to my local library. They gave me a brand new library card and a
pin number, but I was told that I could only download part of it and
that I couldn't print out most of it. What is the point in having a
British standard if you can't work to because of lack of access?

Dave

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:31:30 UTC, "neverwas" wrote:

BS 5839-6 says, "Most unwanted alarms occur during cooking ....



snip


Many thanks. That's good enough for me as an explanation of the "3
metres from a bathroom" 'rule'. I'll put an ionisation detector outside
the bedroom near the bathroom (and an optical inside the bedroom as it
is a potential escape route).

It leaves me feeling a bit depressed though at the compliance cost of
reading the guidance. What you quote seems to me easy enough for a
layman (who takes care) to construe. But I have so far not found a
local library which admits to having BS 5839-6. And I have searched all
the London boroughs via
http://www.londonlibraries.org.uk/will/LibSearch.aspx

I agree with you...however this is probably sufficient...and free.

http://tinyurl.com/5jqexz

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:34:06 +0100, Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost
wrote:

On the other hand, optical smoke detectors are much more prone than
ionization chamber smoke detectors to produce false alarms if exposed
to steam. Optical smoke detectors are also generally more likely to
produce false alarms when exposed to dense tobacco smoke. Ingress of
dust can also cause instability of optical smoke detectors, and result
in constant false alarms.

Hello,

We have an optical alarm downstairs which has frightened us a couple
of times in the middle of the night by going off for no apparent
reason. The intervals between false alarms are some months but I'm not
eagerly awaiting the next one. Is there any reason I cannot swap it
for an ionisation one on the basis that the ion one will not have so
many false alarms

Thanks.

On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 16:29:15 +0100, Owain
wrote:

Is it battery powered? Battery alarms tend to 'fail' in the small hours
when it's coldest and the battery voltage falls.

No, mains.