or not ...

someone talking sense at last


http://www.withouthotair.com/



--
geoff

In article ,
geoff writes:

or not ...

someone talking sense at last

http://www.withouthotair.com/

I haven't read it, but I notice that most appliances with a
standby mode are now micro power consumption, which can be
left plugged in without any significant load. My most recent
Nokia phone charger falls into this category.

The items which aren't seem to be those which are UK-specific
such as cable and set-top boxes. This is probably because we
don't have any requirement for micro power consumption in
standby mode, whereas many other countries now do, and in
order to sell a product internationally, it's now pretty
much an essential requirement.

I did a check on a number of LCD monitors and laptop power
supplies a year ago. Monitors (HP) were all marked Tco'03
which requires very low standby power consumption,
although the monitors were all very much lower than even
that standard requires. The Toshiba PSU's didn't claim any
such low standby power consumption, but they too were
insignificant (both well below 1W). So neither were worth
recommending staff to bother switching off.

Leaving a laptop PSU connected to a laptop with a battery
in it causes significant standby power draw though, even
when the battery is fully charged.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"geoff" wrote in message
...

or not ...

someone talking sense at last


http://www.withouthotair.com/



--
geoff

Interesting stuff. Unfortunately logic and maths don't have the mass appeal
of soundbites.

Channel Five ran a news story the other day about how ~ 25% of all land,
sea, and pond species had become extinct since 1970 (they had different
numbers, but to two significant figures, for each category). Evidently
no-one in their newsroom did a sanity check. The web site featured most if
not all of their other stories of the day, except this one. I wonder why.

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:29:19 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-


or not ...

someone talking sense at last

All you have to do now, if you wish to be convincing, is to come up
with an instance where someone claimed that just unplugging phone
chargers would stop global warming.

Good luck in your quest.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:39:51 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:29:19 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-


or not ...

someone talking sense at last

All you have to do now, if you wish to be convincing, is to come up
with an instance where someone claimed that just unplugging phone
chargers would stop global warming.

Good luck in your quest.

There are going to be two more Chinas by 2050, with all people demanding a
more equitable standard of living across the planet. Plastic bags and items on
standby aren't going to cut it. We need to drastically cut the birth-rate,
however our Gordon appears intent on financing further growth.

Andy

In message , David Hansen
wrote

All you have to do now, if you wish to be convincing, is to come up
with an instance where someone claimed that just unplugging phone
chargers would stop global warming.

Good luck in your quest.


Top energy saving tips from British Gas

Number 1 - Unplug your mobile phone charger.

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy-e...ng-energy-and-
money/tips.html

--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

On 2008-06-21 14:40:36 +0100, Alan said:

In message , David Hansen
wrote

All you have to do now, if you wish to be convincing, is to come up
with an instance where someone claimed that just unplugging phone
chargers would stop global warming.

Good luck in your quest.


Top energy saving tips from British Gas

Number 1 - Unplug your mobile phone charger.

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy-e...ng-energy-and-
money/tips.html

....and use a gas one instead? :-)

Andy Hall wrote:

...and use a gas one instead? :-)

Well a few years ago there was much talk of methane fuel cells being
used to power mobile devices. Whatever became of that idea?

--
Andy

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
geoff writes:

or not ...

someone talking sense at last

http://www.withouthotair.com/

I haven't read it,


well go and do so, doh ...


--
geoff

In message , Alan
writes
In message , David Hansen
wrote

All you have to do now, if you wish to be convincing, is to come up
with an instance where someone claimed that just unplugging phone
chargers would stop global warming.

Good luck in your quest.


Top energy saving tips from British Gas

Number 1 - Unplug your mobile phone charger.

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy-e...ng-energy-and-
money/tips.html

You can't go countering Hansen with facts, it's just ... unfair


--
geoff

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
geoff writes:
or not ...

someone talking sense at last

http://www.withouthotair.com/

I haven't read it,

If you got put off by the apparent huge PDF tome you had to download (as
I was initially!) actually, the phone charger article is at another
(very easy-to-read) link - worth a shufti!:

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sustainable/charger/

David

I think that production of un-necessary stuff is a bigger problem:

eg. * Getting a new phone charger with your new phone when your old one was
okay (should be optional to make you think)

* Making and importing (from China) cheap batteries that don't last very
long - waste of resources - waste of transport and increase in landfill
polutants - for little benefit.

* Shipping cheap Xmas tat from China for it to end up in the bin by the end
of January.


The "stand-by" issue is a red herring as most modern devices are incredibly
low consumption - yet the reports are often based on old equipment.

John wrote:
I think that production of un-necessary stuff is a bigger problem:

eg. * Getting a new phone charger with your new phone when your old one was
okay (should be optional to make you think)

Except that almost every phone that anyone in my family has ever owned
(even from the same manufacturer) has needed a different charger. Why
the hell couldn't that (ie voltage/plug type) have been standardised
years ago, which would have allowed the above eg to have happened?

David

On 2008-06-21 18:11:01 +0100, Lobster said:

John wrote:
I think that production of un-necessary stuff is a bigger problem:

eg. * Getting a new phone charger with your new phone when your old
one was okay (should be optional to make you think)

Except that almost every phone that anyone in my family has ever owned
(even from the same manufacturer) has needed a different charger. Why
the hell couldn't that (ie voltage/plug type) have been standardised
years ago, which would have allowed the above eg to have happened?

David

It has - mini USB connectors.

Some mobile phones (e.g. Motorola) and most PDAs and Blackberrys use
these, as do some other devices like Bluetooth thingies for the lughole.

Charging options a

- From the Mac (or a PC for those who haven't seen the light as yet)

- Small charging lead in the car

- Universal adaptor with swappable head for other countries


The chargers are still supplied with the handheld devices. I keep one
or two and then bin the others.

Because I don't need to carry these extra chargers with me on flights,
there is a fuel saving of 100mL on a one hour flight and I can feel
really virtuous that I have reduced my carbon footprint and saved the
world.

In message , Lobster
writes
Except that almost every phone that anyone in my family has ever owned
(even from the same manufacturer) has needed a different charger.
Not mine, almost every phone with the exception of the current two used
the same charger, even when they changed the plug they included a handy
little adapter. Unfortunately, they supplied a new charger with every
new phone....
Why the hell couldn't that (ie voltage/plug type) have been
standardised years ago, which would have allowed the above eg to have
happened?
Because it makes sense.

David

--
Clint Sharp

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-06-21 18:11:01 +0100, Lobster
said:

John wrote:
I think that production of un-necessary stuff is a bigger problem:

eg. * Getting a new phone charger with your new phone when your old
one was okay (should be optional to make you think)

Except that almost every phone that anyone in my family has ever owned
(even from the same manufacturer) has needed a different charger. Why
the hell couldn't that (ie voltage/plug type) have been standardised
years ago, which would have allowed the above eg to have happened?

David

It has - mini USB connectors.

Some mobile phones (e.g. Motorola) and most PDAs and Blackberrys use
these, as do some other devices like Bluetooth thingies for the lughole.

Hmm. Our household collection includes both a Motorola and Blackberry;
however although the charger plugs look identical they definitely
aren't: we have to use the dedicated chargers. Can't remember which
permutations of charger/phone work, but IIRC we have to use the
originals for both devices.

Always seemed very odd to me and I always mean to investigate further!

David

On 2008-06-22 08:22:54 +0100, Lobster said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-06-21 18:11:01 +0100, Lobster said:

John wrote:
I think that production of un-necessary stuff is a bigger problem:

eg. * Getting a new phone charger with your new phone when your old
one was okay (should be optional to make you think)

Except that almost every phone that anyone in my family has ever owned
(even from the same manufacturer) has needed a different charger. Why
the hell couldn't that (ie voltage/plug type) have been standardised
years ago, which would have allowed the above eg to have happened?

David

It has - mini USB connectors.

Some mobile phones (e.g. Motorola) and most PDAs and Blackberrys use
these, as do some other devices like Bluetooth thingies for the lughole.

Hmm. Our household collection includes both a Motorola and Blackberry;
however although the charger plugs look identical they definitely
aren't: we have to use the dedicated chargers. Can't remember which
permutations of charger/phone work, but IIRC we have to use the
originals for both devices.

Always seemed very odd to me and I always mean to investigate further!

David

Really? That surprises me. I've never had problems with using any
USB power source with them.

In uk.d-i-y, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-06-21 18:11:01 +0100, Lobster said:

John wrote:
I think that production of un-necessary stuff is a bigger problem:
eg. * Getting a new phone charger with your new phone when your
old one was okay (should be optional to make you think)
Except that almost every phone that anyone in my family has ever
owned (even from the same manufacturer) has needed a different
charger. Why the hell couldn't that (ie voltage/plug type) have been
standardised years ago, which would have allowed the above eg to have
happened?
David

It has - mini USB connectors.

Except that the OMTP (the major manufacturers) decided last year to move
to micro-USB instead.

"Due to the situation in USB standards evolution, OMTP defines two
classes for physical data connectivity. However, it is a common view
of participating companies that the industry will gradually shift to
using Class OMTP ConD1 [USB micro B or micro AB receptacle(s)] for
standard data connectivity, and the Class OMTP ConD2 [USB mini B
receptacle] will only be used in exceptional cases in the future."

http://tinyurl.com/536hzr
http://content.omtp.org/Lists/Public...OMTP_Local_Dat
a_Connectivity_v1_0.pdf

--
Mike Barnes

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:40:36 +0100 someone who may be Alan
wrote this:-

All you have to do now, if you wish to be convincing, is to come up
with an instance where someone claimed that just unplugging phone
chargers would stop global warming.

Top energy saving tips from British Gas

Number 1 - Unplug your mobile phone charger.

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy-e...ng-energy-and-
money/tips.html

That does not claim that just unplugging phone chargers would stop
global warming.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:31:11 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-

All you have to do now, if you wish to be convincing, is to come up
with an instance where someone claimed that just unplugging phone
chargers would stop global warming.

Good luck in your quest.


Top energy saving tips from British Gas

Number 1 - Unplug your mobile phone charger.

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy-e...ng-energy-and-
money/tips.html

You can't go countering Hansen with facts, it's just ... unfair

Nice try, but incorrect as usual. Rudeness in the posting too. Do
keep it up.

BTW one fairly obvious fact in that link is that British Gas do not
claim that just unplugging phone chargers would stop global warming.
It is always mildly amusing to see the straws some will clutch at.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Andy Hall wrote:

It has - mini USB connectors.

Some mobile phones (e.g. Motorola) and most PDAs and Blackberrys use
these, as do some other devices like Bluetooth thingies for the lughole.

And for some reason, manufacturers such as Samsung and Archos have
devices that are charged via USB but which use proprietary sockets on
the devices sigh.

In message , David Hansen
wrote
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:40:36 +0100 someone who may be Alan
wrote this:-

All you have to do now, if you wish to be convincing, is to come up
with an instance where someone claimed that just unplugging phone
chargers would stop global warming.

Top energy saving tips from British Gas

Number 1 - Unplug your mobile phone charger.

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy-e...ng-energy-and-
money/tips.html

That does not claim that just unplugging phone chargers would stop
global warming.


That's because there is no such thing as Global Warming.

--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

In message , David Hansen
writes
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:31:11 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-

All you have to do now, if you wish to be convincing, is to come up
with an instance where someone claimed that just unplugging phone
chargers would stop global warming.

Good luck in your quest.


Top energy saving tips from British Gas

Number 1 - Unplug your mobile phone charger.

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy-e...ng-energy-and-
money/tips.html

You can't go countering Hansen with facts, it's just ... unfair

Nice try, but incorrect as usual. Rudeness in the posting too. Do
keep it up.

oh do **** off with your whining

It is always mildly amusing to see the straws some will clutch at.

it is mate, it is


--
geoff

On 2008-06-22 10:16:45 +0100, Mike Barnes said:

In uk.d-i-y, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-06-21 18:11:01 +0100, Lobster said:

John wrote:
I think that production of un-necessary stuff is a bigger problem:
eg. * Getting a new phone charger with your new phone when your
old one was okay (should be optional to make you think)
Except that almost every phone that anyone in my family has ever
owned (even from the same manufacturer) has needed a different
charger. Why the hell couldn't that (ie voltage/plug type) have been
standardised years ago, which would have allowed the above eg to have
happened?
David

It has - mini USB connectors.

Except that the OMTP (the major manufacturers) decided last year to move
to micro-USB instead.

"Due to the situation in USB standards evolution, OMTP defines two
classes for physical data connectivity. However, it is a common view
of participating companies that the industry will gradually shift to
using Class OMTP ConD1 [USB micro B or micro AB receptacle(s)] for
standard data connectivity, and the Class OMTP ConD2 [USB mini B
receptacle] will only be used in exceptional cases in the future."

http://tinyurl.com/536hzr
http://content.omtp.org/Lists/Public...OMTP_Local_Dat
a_Connectivity_v1_0.pdf

That's fine. By the time it's available, all the old devices will be
overdue for going to the landfill anyway.

On 2008-06-22 10:39:35 +0100, David Hansen
said:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:40:36 +0100 someone who may be Alan
wrote this:-

All you have to do now, if you wish to be convincing, is to come up
with an instance where someone claimed that just unplugging phone
chargers would stop global warming.

Top energy saving tips from British Gas

Number 1 - Unplug your mobile phone charger.

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy-e...ng-energy-and-
money/tips.html

That does not claim that just unplugging phone chargers would stop
global warming.

There are lots of uses of the word "could" however which rather suggest
BG not being willing to put its money where it's mouth is.

I wonder why they don't quote lower figures and use the words "would"
and "at least"

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:17:56 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-

oh do **** off with your whining

Excellent, rudeness. Generally resorted to by those with no better
arguments. Do keep it up.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:00:35 +0100 someone who may be Alan
wrote this:-

That's because there is no such thing as Global Warming.

Ah, proof by assertion. Very convincing.

I'll stick with the IPCC thank you, unless you are able to debunk
their arguments.

On the contrary arguments, I like the entry for 13/11/07 at
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/category/communicating-climate/reporting-on-climate/

"There is an interesting, if predictable, piece up on the BBC
website devoted to investigating whether there is any 'consensus'
among the various contrarians on why climate change isn't happening
(or if it is, it isn't caused by human activity or if it is why it
won't be important, or if it is important, why nothing can be done
etc.). Bottom line? The only thing they appear to agree about is
that nothing should be done, but they have a multitude of
conflicting reasons why. Hmm…

"The journalist, Richard Black, put together a top 10 list of
sceptic arguments he gathered from emailing the 61 signers of a
Canadian letter. While these aren't any different in substance to
the ones routinely debunked here (and here and here), this list
comes with the imprimatur of Fred Singer - the godfather to the
sceptic movement, and recent convert from the view that it's been
cooling since 1940 to the idea that global warming is now
unstoppable. Thus these are the arguments (supposedly) that are the
best that the contrarians have to put forward.

"Alongside each of these talking points, is a counter-point from the
mainstream (full disclosure, I helped Richard edit some of those).
In truth though, I was a little disappointed at how lame their 'top
10' arguments were. In order, they a false, a cherry pick, a red
herring, false, false, false, a red herring, a red herring, false
and a strawman. They even used the 'grapes grew in medieval England'
meme that you'd think they'd have abandoned already given that more
grapes are grown in England now than ever before (see here). Another
commonplace untruth is the claim that water vapour is '98% of the
greenhouse effect' - it's just not.

"So why do the contrarians still use arguments that are blatantly
false? I think the most obvious reason is that they are simply not
interested (as a whole) in providing a coherent counter story. If
science has one overriding principle, it is that you should adjust
your thinking in the light of new information and discoveries - the
contrarians continued use of old, tired and discredited arguments
demonstrates their divorce from the scientific process more clearly
than any densely argued rebuttal."




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:17:56 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-

oh do **** off with your whining

Excellent, rudeness. Generally resorted to by those with no better
arguments. Do keep it up.

Excellent, an idiot focussing on his shock at being told he's an idiot.
As if it were news to him. And what an excellent excuse he thinks he has
for ignoring any point made by someone who was "rude" to him. What a
shame that in the real world people just look and say "Oh look Hansen's
backed into a corner, again."

Eleven "wind turbines" in Ireland have exploded in similar style to the
one in the video that Dynamo Dave claimed was an unusual occurence. Two
of them damaged/destroyed nearby farmhouses when they failed.

Apparently this can never happen.

I predict more ducking and diving and claims about "rudeness."

In message , David Hansen
writes
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:17:56 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-

oh do **** off with your whining

Excellent, rudeness. Generally resorted to by those with no better
arguments.

but specifically resorted to because it's your stock reply to anyone who
disagrees with you

It's usenet - idiots like you attract rudeness, get used to it





--
geoff

In message , Alan
writes
In message , David Hansen
wrote
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:40:36 +0100 someone who may be Alan
wrote this:-

All you have to do now, if you wish to be convincing, is to come up
with an instance where someone claimed that just unplugging phone
chargers would stop global warming.

Top energy saving tips from British Gas

Number 1 - Unplug your mobile phone charger.

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy-e...ng-energy-and-
money/tips.html

That does not claim that just unplugging phone chargers would stop
global warming.


That's because there is no such thing as Global Warming.

no, it's localised warming on a global scale, is it ?

--
geoff

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:10:07 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

Eleven "wind turbines" in Ireland have exploded in similar style to the
one in the video that Dynamo Dave claimed was an unusual occurence. Two
of them damaged/destroyed nearby farmhouses when they failed.

Links to news reports please. I'd like to know more.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:57:39 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-

It's usenet - idiots like you attract rudeness, get used to it

Excellent,a personal attack. Generally the resort of those with no
better arguments. Do keep it up, at the very least laughing at those
with no better arguments gives mild amusement to some.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 16:46:28 UTC, David Hansen
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:57:39 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-

It's usenet - idiots like you attract rudeness, get used to it

Excellent,a personal attack. Generally the resort of those with no
better arguments. Do keep it up, at the very least laughing at those
with no better arguments gives mild amusement to some.

Oh, you amuse me greatly, repeating the arguments you've been fed by
your masters.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 22 Jun 2008 17:16:52 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

Oh, you amuse me greatly, repeating the arguments you've been fed by
your masters.

Nice try. However, unless you are claiming to be a mind reader you
have no idea if I have any masters and, if I do, who they are.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In message , David Hansen
writes
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:57:39 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-

It's usenet - idiots like you attract rudeness, get used to it

Excellent,a personal attack. Generally the resort of those with no
better arguments. Do keep it up, at the very least laughing at those
with no better arguments gives mild amusement to some.



As I said, usenet can be a robust forum

if you can't take it , best you bugger off to alt.girls.confirmation or
some other moderated group for those of delicate sensibilities

you certainly don't seem to belong here with rufty tufty people who use
"direct" language



--
geoff

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:10:07 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

Eleven "wind turbines" in Ireland have exploded in similar style to the
one in the video that Dynamo Dave claimed was an unusual occurence. Two
of them damaged/destroyed nearby farmhouses when they failed.

Links to news reports please. I'd like to know more.

http://tinyurl.com/3fs58h
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Bla...-turbine.41948
68.jp

http://tinyurl.com/5xdpv2
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...icle3810988.ec
e

http://www.windaction.org/news/16404

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:15:36 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-

if you can't take it , best you bugger off to alt.girls.confirmation or
some other moderated group for those of delicate sensibilities

Excellent, another personal attack and another attempt at mind
reading. Do keep it up.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Steve Firth wrote in message
.. .


Eleven "wind turbines" in Ireland have exploded in similar style to the
one in the video that Dynamo Dave claimed was an unusual occurence. Two
of them damaged/destroyed nearby farmhouses when they failed.


Having recently seen how dreadful the Irish taste in architecture is now,
that can only be a good thing.

-

In message , David Hansen
writes
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:15:36 +0100 someone who may be geoff
wrote this:-

if you can't take it , best you bugger off to alt.girls.confirmation or
some other moderated group for those of delicate sensibilities

Excellent, another personal attack and another attempt at mind
reading. Do keep it up.

So, how about it ?

go and find a moderated group where robust language is frowned upon

more your sort of thing

I hear that alt.broken.records needs someone of your character


--
geoff

Mark wrote:

Steve Firth wrote in message
.. .


Eleven "wind turbines" in Ireland have exploded in similar style to the
one in the video that Dynamo Dave claimed was an unusual occurence. Two
of them damaged/destroyed nearby farmhouses when they failed.


Having recently seen how dreadful the Irish taste in architecture is now,
that can only be a good thing.

What! You mean you don't like white Snowcem painted bungalows with uPVC
windows and concrete tiled roofs?