On 2008-06-13 08:18:32 +0100, "Cerberus ." said:

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:16:39 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
John Stumbles wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:35:26 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Having recently replaced my boiler, who do I inform? And what's the
reaction going to be since I DIYed it?

your LA BCO, but since you've already done it prolly best to keep schtum
about it ... retrospective wotsits and all that

I wish someone could explain to me why replacing a boiler in the same
place as the old one should need a BCO to be informed? Does moving the
flue all of 2 ft need planning permission?

It's getting to the point where people will have to notify BCO if they want
to wipe their backsides!

Last year we had a gas fire replaced & a flue liner installed. Guess what,
BCO had to be notified and I was issued with a pretty little certificate.
FFS why should the BCO be involved?

Don.

So that they can increase their workload, hire more of them and reduce
unemployment while increasing taxation.

did anybody hear the Radio 4 item about the Purbeck bedroom tax yesterday?

On 13 Jun, 00:25, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

Having recently replaced my boiler, who do I inform? And what's the
reaction going to be since I DIYed it?
It in theory requires a building notice because of the Part L
requirements for energy efficiency - hence verification of the effiency
of the boiler, plus checking that the controls are to modern standards
with TRVs and boiler interlock etc.

Should I apply for this retrospectively? I'm pretty certain it exceeds
current requirements - weather compensated etc.

Dave, it's your choice. When you come to sell the house there is a
standard question on the buyers form, from their solicitor, which asks
if the central heating has been altered from a certain date. If you
say yes (which you would have to in your case), then there is a follow
up which says please supply BCO completion certificates (electrical
and gas) and CORGI certification. If you don't have that then the
buyer can either use it as a reason to knock you down on price or even
pull out of the deal altogether if it worries them that much. The BCO
retrospective fee if 20% on top of the normal fee. From the buyer's
point of view, the fact that there is no 'legal' paperwork for the
installation can invalidate any insurance claim they might make in the
future and of course they would have the same problem when it comes
time for them to sell.

In article ,
writes:
On 13 Jun, 00:25, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

Having recently replaced my boiler, who do I inform? And what's the
reaction going to be since I DIYed it?
It in theory requires a building notice because of the Part L
requirements for energy efficiency - hence verification of the effiency
of the boiler, plus checking that the controls are to modern standards
with TRVs and boiler interlock etc.

Should I apply for this retrospectively? I'm pretty certain it exceeds
current requirements - weather compensated etc.

Dave, it's your choice. When you come to sell the house there is a
standard question on the buyers form, from their solicitor, which asks
if the central heating has been altered from a certain date. If you

In my (admittedly limited experience of two recent cases), the
seller's solicitor doesn't allow you to answer any of these
questions, even where apparently favourable to you.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In my (admittedly limited experience of two recent cases), the
seller's solicitor doesn't allow you to answer any of these
questions, even where apparently favourable to you.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Sure, the buyer's solicitor can't legally force you to answer the
questions but, what would you as the buyer think if you outright
refused to answer those sticky questions? You'd immediately assume
(correctly) that there's no paperwork or that you're hiding something
or both. Either way, answering honestly that you have no paperwork or
alternatively just refusing to answer, you're in the same boat. The
buyer tries to knock you down on price or walks away.

On 2008-06-13 12:35:39 +0100, said:


In my (admittedly limited experience of two recent cases), the
seller's solicitor doesn't allow you to answer any of these
questions, even where apparently favourable to you.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Sure, the buyer's solicitor can't legally force you to answer the
questions but, what would you as the buyer think if you outright
refused to answer those sticky questions? You'd immediately assume
(correctly) that there's no paperwork or that you're hiding something
or both. Either way, answering honestly that you have no paperwork or
alternatively just refusing to answer, you're in the same boat. The
buyer tries to knock you down on price or walks away.

One could simply answer that there is no paperwork and that none is
required. It isn't.

Then the buyer can choose. If they want the house they can choose to
ignore the issue (because it is a non issue) and then check that their
solicitor really knows what she's doing (if she got this wrong how much
more is wrong?)

If it's a price issue and a negotiation then that will have to be about
something else.

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:35:26 +0100 Dave Plowman (News) wrote :
Having recently replaced my boiler, who do I inform? And what's the
reaction going to be since I DIYed it?

I'm about to find this out, since I replaced mine in 2004 and am about to
sell. I am (hopefully) going to pre-empt problems by getting it
professionally serviced and get a Landlord's certificate at the same time.
For the electrics, I will get a periodic inspection report. If I have an
awkward buyer ['s solicitor] they may insist on a Building Regs
regularisation approval which will cost me £250 or so for nothing more
than eyeballing the other paperwork.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:00:39 +0100 Andy Hall wrote :
did anybody hear the Radio 4 item about the Purbeck bedroom tax
yesterday?

Yes, a Conservative council, for anyone who expects things to change in
2010

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Having recently replaced my boiler, who do I inform? And what's the
reaction going to be since I DIYed it?

It in theory requires a building notice because of the Part L
requirements for energy efficiency - hence verification of the effiency
of the boiler, plus checking that the controls are to modern standards
with TRVs and boiler interlock etc.

Should I apply for this retrospectively? I'm pretty certain it exceeds
current requirements - weather compensated etc.

No point now... If you sell the place and it proves to be a problem, you
can get a (worthless*) insurance to cover retrospective building regs
problems.


* IIUC the window of time where a LA can take any enforcement action on
building regs violations is short, and since your system complies anyway
there would be nothing for them to take action over. That even assumes
they had the will - which seems unlikely.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 13 Jun, 13:11, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-06-13 12:35:39 +0100, said:

One could simply answer that there is no paperwork and that none is
required. It isn't.

Then the buyer can choose. If they want the house they can choose to
ignore the issue (because it is a non issue) and then check that their
solicitor really knows what she's doing (if she got this wrong how much
more is wrong?)

If it's a price issue and a negotiation then that will have to be about
something else.

Andy, are we talking about the boiler replacement or my original
question about the radiator? If you are talking about the boiler
replacement, where are you getting this idea that no paperwork is
required from? Can you refer me to a legally binding document that
states this, something that I could refer the clueless solicitor to
when they (or the buyer) insist on BCO completion certificates and
CORGI paperwork?

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:35:26 +0100 Dave Plowman (News) wrote :
Having recently replaced my boiler, who do I inform? And what's the
reaction going to be since I DIYed it?

I'm about to find this out, since I replaced mine in 2004 and am about to
sell. I am (hopefully) going to pre-empt problems by getting it
professionally serviced and get a Landlord's certificate at the same time.
For the electrics, I will get a periodic inspection report. If I have an
awkward buyer ['s solicitor] they may insist on a Building Regs
regularisation approval which will cost me £250 or so for nothing more
than eyeballing the other paperwork.


When I sold my house, in which the boiler had been replaced a few years
earlier, the buyers (via their solicitors) asked for paperwork from recent
servicing of the boiler.

I told them, not untruthfully, that I had never had my boiler serviced and
therefore I had no servicing paperwork to give them. They asked again and I
told them the same thing. They then asked whether it worked OK, and I said
to the best of my knowledge yes (which it did).

That was that. I was prepared, if pushed, to get it serviced and pay for
it, but I didn't think it was worth servicing it on the off chance.

On 2008-06-13 13:34:11 +0100, said:

On 13 Jun, 13:11, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-06-13 12:35:39 +0100, said:

One could simply answer that there is no paperwork and that none is
required. It isn't.

Then the buyer can choose. If they want the house they can choose to
ignore the issue (because it is a non issue) and then check that their
solicitor really knows what she's doing (if she got this wrong how much
more is wrong?)

If it's a price issue and a negotiation then that will have to be about
something else.

Andy, are we talking about the boiler replacement or my original
question about the radiator?

Specifically the radiator not boiler replacement.

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , John Stumbles
writes
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:03:50 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-06-11 20:33:00 +0100, John Stumbles john.stumbles@ntlw
orld.com said:

CORGI don't describe them (us) as such: it was the term used by the OP.
CORGI's current term is "Installer" (as in Registered Installer, as in
Council Of Registered Gas Installers = CORGI)

It almost makes you not want to be involved if that were possible.

What, because of the name? I could get pedantic about the fact that I
do repairs, maintenance and inspection as well as installing but life's
too short :-)

The diligent and experienced person effectively has the same status as
the 17 year old who can only just about manage to solder.

A plumbing qualification is a prerequisite for the gas training (which of
course absolutely guarantees that the person will have appropriate
plumbing
skills ... just as a driving licence guarantees that a person is a
competent driver [sigh]) but ability to solder and other basic plumbing
skills aren't part of the gas assessment.

Actually the driving analogy (s/solder/drive/ in what you said) is
interesting, but with the gas thing you get assessed on your work every
year or two and have to re-do the whole assessment every 5 years. That's a
model I'd like to see on the roads: discuss [ducks :-)]

So how did the CORGI who was fitting a fan and PCB I supplied to his
customer need me to explain to him how to test an air pressure switch

today that is

So, the customer had paid for a pcb and fan and, because of his
misdiagnosis, they weren't the fault

a) lucky they bought from me because of
i) price
ii) backup

Any fitter or whatever you want to call them who can't test a simple
component like a pressure switch wants shooting IMHO.


But come on mate, describing testing of a pressure switch as "back up" is a
bit lame a six year old could do it, lets face it.



Ron.


b) I dread to think what his driving's like if I have to follow your
analogy

--
geoff

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:14:41 GMT, Tony Bryer wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:00:39 +0100 Andy Hall wrote :
did anybody hear the Radio 4 item about the Purbeck bedroom tax
yesterday?

Yes, a Conservative council, for anyone who expects things to change in
2010

I was going to call it 'daylight robbery', but that was the "Window Tax" of
1696. Oh well, that's progress for you. ;-)

Don.

Cerberus . wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:14:41 GMT, Tony Bryer wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:00:39 +0100 Andy Hall wrote :
did anybody hear the Radio 4 item about the Purbeck bedroom tax
yesterday?
Yes, a Conservative council, for anyone who expects things to change in
2010

I was going to call it 'daylight robbery', but that was the "Window Tax" of
1696. Oh well, that's progress for you. ;-)

The window tax is a scam run by FENSA these days ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Having recently replaced my boiler, who do I inform? And what's the
reaction going to be since I DIYed it?

It in theory requires a building notice because of the Part L
requirements for energy efficiency - hence verification of the
effiency of the boiler, plus checking that the controls are to
modern standards with TRVs and boiler interlock etc.

Should I apply for this retrospectively? I'm pretty certain it exceeds
current requirements - weather compensated etc.

No point now... If you sell the place and it proves to be a problem, you
can get a (worthless*) insurance to cover retrospective building regs
problems.

OK. I've no intention of selling - I wouldn't have replaced the boiler if
I had.


* IIUC the window of time where a LA can take any enforcement action on
building regs violations is short, and since your system complies anyway
there would be nothing for them to take action over. That even assumes
they had the will - which seems unlikely.

Great. I put in a larger window at the same time. Wonder what I've not
done that I should have with this. ;-)

--
*Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , ronny writes
The diligent and experienced person effectively has the same status as
the 17 year old who can only just about manage to solder.

A plumbing qualification is a prerequisite for the gas training (which of
course absolutely guarantees that the person will have appropriate
plumbing
skills ... just as a driving licence guarantees that a person is a
competent driver [sigh]) but ability to solder and other basic plumbing
skills aren't part of the gas assessment.

Actually the driving analogy (s/solder/drive/ in what you said) is
interesting, but with the gas thing you get assessed on your work every
year or two and have to re-do the whole assessment every 5 years. That's a
model I'd like to see on the roads: discuss [ducks :-)]

So how did the CORGI who was fitting a fan and PCB I supplied to his
customer need me to explain to him how to test an air pressure switch

today that is

So, the customer had paid for a pcb and fan and, because of his
misdiagnosis, they weren't the fault

a) lucky they bought from me because of
i) price
ii) backup

Any fitter or whatever you want to call them who can't test a simple
component like a pressure switch wants shooting IMHO.


But come on mate, describing testing of a pressure switch as "back up" is a
bit lame a six year old could do it, lets face it.

The backup is me explaining to the fitter how to do it over the phone

--
geoff

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

No point now... If you sell the place and it proves to be a problem, you
can get a (worthless*) insurance to cover retrospective building regs
problems.

OK. I've no intention of selling - I wouldn't have replaced the boiler if
I had.

Nothing to worry about then...

* IIUC the window of time where a LA can take any enforcement action on
building regs violations is short, and since your system complies anyway
there would be nothing for them to take action over. That even assumes
they had the will - which seems unlikely.

Great. I put in a larger window at the same time. Wonder what I've not
done that I should have with this. ;-)

Same thing... building regs Part something or other (I lose track of the
alphabet soup of pointless regulation that has flowed forth in recent
years). You need to be a member of FENSA or go the building notice route
to replace a window. (although you can repair one with impunity however)

(stats suggest that to all intents and purposes no one bothers taking
any notice of this one).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:50:36 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , John Stumbles
writes
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:03:50 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-06-11 20:33:00 +0100, John Stumbles john.stumbles@ntlw
orld.com said:

CORGI don't describe them (us) as such: it was the term used by the
OP. CORGI's current term is "Installer" (as in Registered Installer,
as in Council Of Registered Gas Installers = CORGI)

It almost makes you not want to be involved if that were possible.

What, because of the name? I could get pedantic about the fact that I do
repairs, maintenance and inspection as well as installing but life's too
short :-)

The diligent and experienced person effectively has the same status as
the 17 year old who can only just about manage to solder.

A plumbing qualification is a prerequisite for the gas training (which
of course absolutely guarantees that the person will have appropriate
plumbing skills ... just as a driving licence guarantees that a person
is a competent driver [sigh]) but ability to solder and other basic
plumbing skills aren't part of the gas assessment.

Actually the driving analogy (s/solder/drive/ in what you said) is
interesting, but with the gas thing you get assessed on your work every
year or two and have to re-do the whole assessment every 5 years. That's
a model I'd like to see on the roads: discuss [ducks :-)]

So how did the CORGI who was fitting a fan and PCB I supplied to his
customer need me to explain to him how to test an air pressure switch

today that is

So, the customer had paid for a pcb and fan and, because of his
misdiagnosis, they weren't the fault

a) lucky they bought from me because of
i) price
ii) backup

b) I dread to think what his driving's like if I have to follow your
analogy

IIRC the assessments have alot about recognising load of obsolete gas
controls but very little on modern stuff. The other side of assessment is
the certified work record. However this is eroded becasue
a) The on the job training can be very patchy.
b) The assessment centres are competeing with each other to see who can
offer entry on the basis of the smallest work record.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:50:36 +0100, geoff wrote:


So how did the CORGI who was fitting a fan and PCB I supplied to his
customer need me to explain to him how to test an air pressure switch

Presumably because he hadn't half a clue about fault-finding, which isn't
part of either the training or prerequisites for ACS. However he should
have been competent at testing that the boiler was effectively sealed and
not leaking POCs into the room after he'd done the fan :-|

I dread to think what his driving's like if I have to follow your
analogy

Prolly still hogging the middle lane. Saw on the gogglebox an age ago
about someplace in India where the traffic makes Keystone Cops look like a
sedate country spin, but the learner drivers' test course is a completely
empty stretch of tarmac about 100 yards long with a slight wiggle partway
along. This country's driving test is like that in that learners get a
full licence without once having driven on a motorway.

And (to get rather circuitously back to the point (whatever it was :-)))
you can get a full ACS and CORGI registration without having a clue about
fault-finding problems unless they're directly related to combustion
safety.

--
John Stumbles

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:03:40 +0100, Denon wrote:

After getting 3 quotes for what seemed ( to me ) to be absolute rip-off
prices and being told that "if you don't use a corgi reg fitter you will
die.... its that simple mate " I then went ahead and fitted my own combi
boiler. I had never even plumbed a tap before in my life nor changed a tap
washer, none of those technical things, what I do have is common sense. The
best quote I had was £500 labour and was told it would take 2 days due to it
not being a the same make of boiler out as in. I did it myself in 6 hours
without any experience and having to go buy a couple tools and standard tea
breaks..... oh and it cost me £25.00. That was 18 months ago and I'm still
here to tell the tail.

Oh dear.

How did you check that the pipework was properly sized for your combi, and
check the working gas pressure at the boiler?

How did you verify the integrity of your gas pipework?

What sort of soldering flux did you use on it and how did you apply it?
And what did you do to each joint after you'd soldered it?

What did you do with the pipe where it passed through any solid walls?

How did you make non-soldered joints?

What cleanser did you use to flush the system with? And what inhibitor did
you put it in after it was properly flushed?

What system controls did you end up with? How many TRVs did you have to
add to radiators to bring it up to current Building Regs energy efficiency
standards?


I have
also been told that if I rewire my house "you will die....its that simple
mate" Guess what my next job is........

Where do you live? Just so I can keep clear ...

--
John Stumbles

This message has been rot13 encrypted twice for added security

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:50:36 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , John Stumbles
writes
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:03:50 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-06-11 20:33:00 +0100, John Stumbles john.stumbles@ntlw
orld.com said:

CORGI don't describe them (us) as such: it was the term used by the
OP. CORGI's current term is "Installer" (as in Registered Installer,
as in Council Of Registered Gas Installers = CORGI)

It almost makes you not want to be involved if that were possible.

What, because of the name? I could get pedantic about the fact that I do
repairs, maintenance and inspection as well as installing but life's too
short :-)

The diligent and experienced person effectively has the same status as
the 17 year old who can only just about manage to solder.

A plumbing qualification is a prerequisite for the gas training (which
of course absolutely guarantees that the person will have appropriate
plumbing skills ... just as a driving licence guarantees that a person
is a competent driver [sigh]) but ability to solder and other basic
plumbing skills aren't part of the gas assessment.

Actually the driving analogy (s/solder/drive/ in what you said) is
interesting, but with the gas thing you get assessed on your work every
year or two and have to re-do the whole assessment every 5 years. That's
a model I'd like to see on the roads: discuss [ducks :-)]

So how did the CORGI who was fitting a fan and PCB I supplied to his
customer need me to explain to him how to test an air pressure switch

today that is

So, the customer had paid for a pcb and fan and, because of his
misdiagnosis, they weren't the fault

a) lucky they bought from me because of
i) price
ii) backup

b) I dread to think what his driving's like if I have to follow your
analogy

IIRC the assessments have alot about recognising load of obsolete gas
controls but very little on modern stuff. The other side of assessment is
the certified work record. However this is eroded becasue
a) The on the job training can be very patchy.
b) The assessment centres are competeing with each other to see who can
offer entry on the basis of the smallest work record.

There is no on the job training for "current operatives", Obsolete controls
are that, obsolete, and there is no work based work record, so where did you
hear that??
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

In message , John Stumbles
writes
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:03:40 +0100, Denon wrote:

After getting 3 quotes for what seemed ( to me ) to be absolute rip-off
prices and being told that "if you don't use a corgi reg fitter you will
die.... its that simple mate " I then went ahead and fitted my own combi
boiler. I had never even plumbed a tap before in my life nor changed a tap
washer, none of those technical things, what I do have is common sense. The
best quote I had was £500 labour and was told it would take 2 days
due to it
not being a the same make of boiler out as in. I did it myself in 6 hours
without any experience and having to go buy a couple tools and standard tea
breaks..... oh and it cost me £25.00. That was 18 months ago and I'm still
here to tell the tail.

Oh dear.

How did you check that the pipework was properly sized for your combi, and
check the working gas pressure at the boiler?

How did you verify the integrity of your gas pipework?

What sort of soldering flux did you use on it and how did you apply it?
And what did you do to each joint after you'd soldered it?

What did you do with the pipe where it passed through any solid walls?

How did you make non-soldered joints?

What cleanser did you use to flush the system with? And what inhibitor did
you put it in after it was properly flushed?

What system controls did you end up with? How many TRVs did you have to
add to radiators to bring it up to current Building Regs energy efficiency
standards?


I have
also been told that if I rewire my house "you will die....its that simple
mate" Guess what my next job is........

Where do you live? Just so I can keep clear ...

Oi - that was me 20 years ago

We all have to start somewhere

UK-diy exists for those who want to DIY and need a bit of guidance

Not for ****wits who are too stupid to remove a sticker from their car's
rear window or (I haven't even looked at the thread) people who can't
even sort out what trousers to wear to DIY

ISTR a lot of us have come a long way over the years, lets not forget
where we started



.... rant over

p.s. how scary

my 25 year endowment mortgage matures next year

where did the time go ?



--
geoff

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:03:40 +0100, Denon wrote:

After getting 3 quotes for what seemed ( to me ) to be absolute rip-off
prices and being told that "if you don't use a corgi reg fitter you will
die.... its that simple mate " I then went ahead and fitted my own combi
boiler. I had never even plumbed a tap before in my life nor changed a
tap
washer, none of those technical things, what I do have is common sense.
The
best quote I had was £500 labour and was told it would take 2 days due to
it
not being a the same make of boiler out as in. I did it myself in 6
hours
without any experience and having to go buy a couple tools and standard
tea
breaks..... oh and it cost me £25.00. That was 18 months ago and I'm
still
here to tell the tail.

Oh dear.

How did you check that the pipework was properly sized for your combi, and
check the working gas pressure at the boiler?

How did you verify the integrity of your gas pipework?

What sort of soldering flux did you use on it and how did you apply it?
And what did you do to each joint after you'd soldered it?

What did you do with the pipe where it passed through any solid walls?

How did you make non-soldered joints?

What cleanser did you use to flush the system with? And what inhibitor did
you put it in after it was properly flushed?

What system controls did you end up with? How many TRVs did you have to
add to radiators to bring it up to current Building Regs energy efficiency
standards?


I have
also been told that if I rewire my house "you will die....its that simple
mate" Guess what my next job is........

Where do you live? Just so I can keep clear ...

--
John Stumbles

Ah now you sound like one of those there experts with a certificate, was you
one of the ones that gave me s quote and promised my death if I didn't
accept it John ?

The strange thing is that you seem be multiplying and appearing in every
walk of life.....I have just rebuilt a suzuki 1400gsxi engine for my
neighbour and strangeley enough you were mentioned in the factory manual
that I read for the settings, didn't actually tell me that I would die
(although that is mentioned in the braking section) but it did infer that I
wouldn't be able to strip & rebuild the engine and so should take it to a
specialist with a certificate and pay him/her £2000 + to do what I did in 2
hours with £200 worth of psrts bought at trade, I do believe that people
paying for nothing more than certificate ownership.

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:03:40 +0100, Denon wrote:

I have also been told that if I rewire my house "you will die....its that
simple
mate" Guess what my next job is........

Where do you live? Just so I can keep clear ...

--
John Stumbles

You see here an aura of total arrogance born of ( I presume) certificate
ownership. You have never met me John and you have absolutely no idea of my
capabilities, what you base your derogitory comments on is the fact that YOU
and a few others have a certificate stating that you are skilled in a
particular proffession and you have bought a certificate to prove it.
I believe it is down to you and others with your attitude that has set a
divide between i.e. Gas Fitters and corgi reg Gas Fitters the latter is
always mentioned with a strange smile or a roll of the eyes along with
certified electricians and the like.

It really is simple John, if I need a certificate to state that a certain
appliance is fitted properly etc....I can pick up the phone and get
one....... for a tenner that is what your certification is worth to the
normal everyday home-owner like me........a tenner, this is also how it used
to work when I was a teenager and needed an MOT on my car, I knew it was
safe but didn't have a peice of paper to prove it.
I'm not saying that this certified stupidity isn't the law..... I know it
is,...... is it really needed ? only in the eyes of the eu and our penny
greedy government ( oh and the certificated ones) because they make money
from it not because they are bothered someone may be hurt.

You can have a lot of fum with this one John but by the time you read it I
will be on a plane for a short break in Georgia where you don't need such
certificates and people do just fine...have fun

Denon wrote:

Ah now you sound like one of those there experts with a certificate, was you
one of the ones that gave me s quote and promised my death if I didn't
accept it John ?


Denon, take a step back from this for a moment, and read through the
thread. You may see where possible misunderstandings could have formed.

I applaud your desire to get stuck in a do something that many would
throw up their arms in horror and say "too complicated". However your
post on the subject gave no indication that a number of important steps
regarding the work you did were taken. It may well be that you did them,
in which case great. However it is possible that you were not aware of
the requirements for some of them. In which case, John's post is
probably the most useful one you will find in this thread since it
encompasses in a few lines enough information to point you in all the
right directions.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:55:54 +0100, ronny wrote:

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:50:36 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , John Stumbles
writes
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:03:50 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-06-11 20:33:00 +0100, John Stumbles john.stumbles@ntlw
orld.com said:

CORGI don't describe them (us) as such: it was the term used by the
OP. CORGI's current term is "Installer" (as in Registered
Installer, as in Council Of Registered Gas Installers = CORGI)

It almost makes you not want to be involved if that were possible.

What, because of the name? I could get pedantic about the fact that I
do repairs, maintenance and inspection as well as installing but
life's too short :-)

The diligent and experienced person effectively has the same status
as the 17 year old who can only just about manage to solder.

A plumbing qualification is a prerequisite for the gas training (which
of course absolutely guarantees that the person will have appropriate
plumbing skills ... just as a driving licence guarantees that a person
is a competent driver [sigh]) but ability to solder and other basic
plumbing skills aren't part of the gas assessment.

Actually the driving analogy (s/solder/drive/ in what you said) is
interesting, but with the gas thing you get assessed on your work
every year or two and have to re-do the whole assessment every 5
years. That's a model I'd like to see on the roads: discuss [ducks
:-)]

So how did the CORGI who was fitting a fan and PCB I supplied to his
customer need me to explain to him how to test an air pressure switch

today that is

So, the customer had paid for a pcb and fan and, because of his
misdiagnosis, they weren't the fault

a) lucky they bought from me because of
i) price
ii) backup

b) I dread to think what his driving's like if I have to follow your
analogy

IIRC the assessments have alot about recognising load of obsolete gas
controls but very little on modern stuff. The other side of assessment
is the certified work record. However this is eroded becasue a) The on
the job training can be very patchy. b) The assessment centres are
competeing with each other to see who can offer entry on the basis of
the smallest work record.

There is no on the job training for "current operatives", Obsolete
controls are that, obsolete, and there is no work based work record, so
where did you hear that??
--

Any one new will have to have a documented work record, there will have
to be some paper work involved. Although the assessment centres seem to
require not all that much of it.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:55:54 +0100, ronny wrote:

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:50:36 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , John Stumbles
writes
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:03:50 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-06-11 20:33:00 +0100, John Stumbles john.stumbles@ntlw
orld.com said:

CORGI don't describe them (us) as such: it was the term used by the
OP. CORGI's current term is "Installer" (as in Registered
Installer, as in Council Of Registered Gas Installers = CORGI)

It almost makes you not want to be involved if that were possible.

What, because of the name? I could get pedantic about the fact that I
do repairs, maintenance and inspection as well as installing but
life's too short :-)

The diligent and experienced person effectively has the same status
as the 17 year old who can only just about manage to solder.

A plumbing qualification is a prerequisite for the gas training (which
of course absolutely guarantees that the person will have appropriate
plumbing skills ... just as a driving licence guarantees that a person
is a competent driver [sigh]) but ability to solder and other basic
plumbing skills aren't part of the gas assessment.

Actually the driving analogy (s/solder/drive/ in what you said) is
interesting, but with the gas thing you get assessed on your work
every year or two and have to re-do the whole assessment every 5
years. That's a model I'd like to see on the roads: discuss [ducks
:-)]

So how did the CORGI who was fitting a fan and PCB I supplied to his
customer need me to explain to him how to test an air pressure switch

today that is

So, the customer had paid for a pcb and fan and, because of his
misdiagnosis, they weren't the fault

a) lucky they bought from me because of
i) price
ii) backup

b) I dread to think what his driving's like if I have to follow your
analogy

IIRC the assessments have alot about recognising load of obsolete gas
controls but very little on modern stuff. The other side of assessment
is the certified work record. However this is eroded becasue a) The on
the job training can be very patchy. b) The assessment centres are
competeing with each other to see who can offer entry on the basis of
the smallest work record.

There is no on the job training for "current operatives", Obsolete
controls are that, obsolete, and there is no work based work record, so
where did you hear that??
--

Any one new will have to have a documented work record, there will have
to be some paper work involved. Although the assessment centres seem to
require not all that much of it.

not true, our apprentices have been followed all through the college
training...



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 07:34:56 +0100, Denon wrote:

You see here an aura of total arrogance born of ( I presume) certificate
ownership. You have never met me John and you have absolutely no idea of
my capabilities, what you base your derogitory comments on

.... is your saying you did in 6 hours a job which a skilled and
experienced engineer doing the job properly & not cutting corners would
have taken a lot longer to do

YOU and a few others have a certificate stating that you are skilled in
a particular proffession and you have bought a certificate to prove it.

I've paid for a lot of training and assessments, and got a lot of
experience through doing this sort of work for a living for several years.
What have you got?

--
John Stumbles

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 23:54:40 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 07:34:56 +0100, Denon wrote:

You see here an aura of total arrogance born of ( I presume)
certificate ownership. You have never met me John and you have
absolutely no idea of my capabilities, what you base your derogitory
comments on

... is your saying you did in 6 hours a job which a skilled and
experienced engineer doing the job properly & not cutting corners would
have taken a lot longer to do

YOU and a few others have a certificate stating that you are skilled in
a particular proffession and you have bought a certificate to prove it.

I've paid for a lot of training and assessments, and got a lot of
experience through doing this sort of work for a living for several
years. What have you got?

I too am irritated by the assertion that somehow the professionals spin
out a job which a relatively inexperienced person can do in a few hours.

The 6 hours is probably the absolute minimum to get a functional system.
There will be very many aspects of best practice left undone.

About the only thing that a diyer might not have to do is the paperwork.

Making good might be expected from a pro (bricking up old flue holes has
got to be part of 50% of all jobs).

Cleaning of the existing circuit, upgrading of the controls to comply
with Part L. That alone is a solid days work on most systems.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

In article ,
Ed Sirett wrote:
Making good might be expected from a pro (bricking up old flue holes has
got to be part of 50% of all jobs).

That - and making the new hole and making good - took me more than 6 hours.
And I had plenty spare matching bricks. But you'd be hard pushed to see
where the old terminal was now. Add in plumbing in the condensate drain
plus piping up the pressure release circuit took pretty well all of a long
day.
I'd love to see a boiler change done it 6 hours by one person - unless it
was simply fitting an new identical one. I'll bet it's a mess.

--
*It was all so different before everything changed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.