On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:19:29 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Stephen Howard wrote:
My thoughts entirely, I always assumed that the main "advantage" of
lead free solder was to the plumber rather than the householder. The
big advantage to the householder happened years back when they stopped
using lead pipes.

I can't see there's any advantage to the plumber in technical
terms...the flow characteristics of the stuff are lousy by comparison.

H&S, I assume.

Probably - and probably why Evostik's 'new, improved formula' is so
poor.
It all started with that Valerie Singleton and her 'blunt nose
scissors'.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:20:49 +0100, Bill
wrote:

In message , Stephen Howard
writes

I can't see there's any advantage to the plumber in technical
terms...the flow characteristics of the stuff are lousy by comparison.

I was meaning health wise.

Certainly the little I've used on plumbing has not been as easy to use
as leaded although I may get used to it. But I do use a lot on PCBs and
thank goodness I have a good supply of leaded solder for that. The lead
free is naff, even when using a hotter iron.

It's certainly not as good as leaded in maintenance applications (
repairs as opposed to assembly ), and it's rather more brittle. I also
have doubts about its longevity with regard to moisture and corrosion.

I read somewhere that there had been problems with metallic 'hairs'
forming on pcbs assembled with lead free solder.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

In article ,
(A.Lee) writes:
Unfortunately that is not true. I have had to change 2 15mm copper pipe
lengths recently as they were corroded through - tiny pinhole leaks. I
think it will get worse in coming years as copper pipe is so thin now
that it will corrode through so much faster.
Old pipe from 20 years ago is easily twice as thick as new pipe
nowadays.
Alan.

There were some bad batches of copper pipe with impurities which
corrode into pinhole leaks. One of these was in the early 1970's
IIRC, but there are probably several less well known ones too.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Onetap wrote:
And if it is completely impervious to water, why do old lead pipes
develop pin-hole leaks? It doesn't happen with copper or plastic.

It certainly does with copper.

I've seen it in old 1/2" pipe, you get a mist so fine its difficult to find
the actual hole.
You rip it out and put in some 15 mm using speedfit.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Onetap wrote:
And if it is completely impervious to water, why do old lead pipes
develop pin-hole leaks? It doesn't happen with copper or plastic.

It certainly does with copper.

I've seen it in old 1/2" pipe, you get a mist so fine its difficult to
find the actual hole. You rip it out and put in some 15 mm using
speedfit.

And you positively know that will last as long?

--
*There are two kinds of pedestrians... the quick and the dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Onetap wrote:
And if it is completely impervious to water, why do old lead pipes
develop pin-hole leaks? It doesn't happen with copper or plastic.

It certainly does with copper.

I've seen it in old 1/2" pipe, you get a mist so fine its difficult to
find the actual hole. You rip it out and put in some 15 mm using
speedfit.

And you positively know that will last as long?

Do I care?
It should last at least 25 years and the house will have been demolished or
fallen down by then.

I have no worries about using speedfit in my house.
I have had plastic plumbing in there for more than 25 years now, both on the
water and the heating.

I will let you know if its OK in another 25 years.

On 4 Jun, 00:10, wrote:

I had problems 40 years ago when working in a bacteriology dept of copper
dissolving in distilled water, enough to prevent the growth of bacteria
glassware rinsed with the water from pipes where it had stood overnight.

DI water attacks copper or stainless steel pipes, I think they usually
use ABS now.
P{inholing is also a problem with softened, heated water, usually
downstream of joints which have not been reamed out.
You can also get problems with erosion iif the flow rate is too
high.

Copper dissolves well in water of low pH, as soft (like distilled) water with
dissolved CO2.

There was a query about that on here some months ago; I had an old
technical memorandum about corrosive waters from Bexley Wells (I
think) which did as you describe. It had high levels of dissolved
CO2.

I haven't seen properly installed copper pipe perforate; I've seen
lots of perforated lead.

So, why does it happen in hard-water areas, where the limescale
deposits should, in theory, protect the lead from corrosion?
The lead pipe is much thicker than copper.

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:30:50 +0100, wrote:

Hi, if someone has used the 'wrong' solder to connect water pipes in a
house is there any way of avoiding replacing the piping?

I thought the lead leeching into the water would reduce over time.
However, I don't know if this is true and, if so, how long it would
take for the lead levels to fall to a safe level.

The house this has happend in was build about 5 years ago but the lead
levels were only noticed a year ago (and have since dropped - but not
to safe levels yet)
The piping could be replaced under insurance but would prefer to avoid
the mess if possible.

Any pointers/info greatly appreciated

Thanks for all the comments folks.
One of the neighbours was ill and had the water tested by the local
water board. They found high levels of lead and all the houses in the
(small) estate were tested.

Not sure of these figures but apparently the WHO limit for lead is 25
micro grammes of lead per litre. Reducing to 10ug soon.
The house readings are now 13ug and after running the tap for 5 mins
it drops to 0.6ug (so it looks like something in the house pipes
causing the problem)
One en-suite tap had a reading of 152ug (not drinking that!!)

The house has an enforcement order on it re the lead and the insurers
are willing to pay for the work to fix the problem. It's just we don't
know if it's worth all the hassle and we don't know what legal force
there is with an enforcement order. e.g. could you just stall
indefinitely until the lead level drops to a safe level (assuning it
ever will) or is there some time limit to them.

wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:30:50 +0100, wrote:

Hi, if someone has used the 'wrong' solder to connect water pipes in a
house is there any way of avoiding replacing the piping?

I thought the lead leeching into the water would reduce over time.
However, I don't know if this is true and, if so, how long it would
take for the lead levels to fall to a safe level.

The house this has happend in was build about 5 years ago but the lead
levels were only noticed a year ago (and have since dropped - but not
to safe levels yet)
The piping could be replaced under insurance but would prefer to avoid
the mess if possible.

Any pointers/info greatly appreciated

Thanks for all the comments folks.
One of the neighbours was ill and had the water tested by the local
water board. They found high levels of lead and all the houses in the
(small) estate were tested.

Not sure of these figures but apparently the WHO limit for lead is 25
micro grammes of lead per litre. Reducing to 10ug soon.
The house readings are now 13ug and after running the tap for 5 mins
it drops to 0.6ug (so it looks like something in the house pipes
causing the problem)
One en-suite tap had a reading of 152ug (not drinking that!!)

The house has an enforcement order on it re the lead and the insurers
are willing to pay for the work to fix the problem. It's just we don't
know if it's worth all the hassle and we don't know what legal force
there is with an enforcement order. e.g. could you just stall
indefinitely until the lead level drops to a safe level (assuning it
ever will) or is there some time limit to them.


Sorry if this sounds rude, but:

For gawd's sake just get it done!

IMHO there are simply too many imponderables about the effects of the
lead on your health. If the level is still high after five years, it
isn't going to disappear in a hurry. And you certainly don't want to
have to tell any prospective buyer that you know all about the problem
but haven't done anything about it.

If you did not have insurance cover I might be a bit more circumspect,
but with that covered, just go for it. Opportunity for a bit of DIY as
you repair the mess. :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article
,
Onetap wrote:
On 3 Jun, 15:37, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Well, lots of lead pipe still in use. In theory you can have it
replaced for free as it's considered a health hazard.
The 'free' replacement only applies to the Water Supplier's service
pipe, i.e., from the water main to the house boundary.
The pipe inside the boundary is the house owner's responsibility.
A test at the stopcock would show whether the water is picking up any
lead once inside the lead-soldered plumbing.

Err, didn't you read the rest of my post?

Yes. The OP is talking about his lead pipe; your post reads like he
can get someone to replace it free.

It still reads that way to me.

There won't be many houses around with lead internal pipes - but plenty
still have lead for the incoming main.

The OP was talking about lead solder, not pipes

He'll prolly die of worrying about it

--
geoff

In message , Bill
writes
In message , Stephen Howard
writes

I can't see there's any advantage to the plumber in technical
terms...the flow characteristics of the stuff are lousy by comparison.

I was meaning health wise.

Certainly the little I've used on plumbing has not been as easy to use
as leaded although I may get used to it. But I do use a lot on PCBs

A lot ?

try a 500g reel / month



--
geoff

On 4 Jun, 20:23, Onetap wrote:

So, why does it happen in hard-water areas, where the limescale
deposits should, in theory, protect the lead from corrosion?
The lead pipe is much thicker than *copper

Answering my own question, I've just looked up the galvanic series.

I had thought lead would be up the noble end, but it's way down near
the bottom, with zinc being the only likely plumbing system component
on (galvanized pipe) further down the series towards the corroded end.

If you have a plumbing system with copper or bronze components, any
galvanic corrosion will affect the lead or lead/tin solder. The lead
will act as a sacrificial anode and lead salts will be leached into
the water.