In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Think single pipe systems are out of fashion these days...

Where did I mention single pipe?

With only one connector at each end of the two pipes to each rad that's
what it suggests.

To someone that has done a heating system it would suggest a rad and a
manifold.

Ah. Another bodge. Say no more.

--
*A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Think single pipe systems are out of fashion these days...

Where did I mention single pipe?

With only one connector at each end of the two pipes to each rad that's
what it suggests.

To someone that has done a heating system it would suggest a rad and a
manifold.

Ah. Another bodge. Say no more.

What's a bodge about doing it correctly?
Do you know anything about modern heating?

On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:18:48 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

To someone that has done a heating system it would suggest a rad and a
manifold.

Ah. Another bodge. Say no more.

What's a bodge about doing it correctly?

Manifold implies microbore implies bodge...

Can you get microbore plastic?

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Think single pipe systems are out of fashion these days...

Where did I mention single pipe?

With only one connector at each end of the two pipes to each rad
that's what it suggests.

To someone that has done a heating system it would suggest a rad and a
manifold.

Ah. Another bodge. Say no more.

What's a bodge about doing it correctly?

With microbore and manifolds?

Do you know anything about modern heating?

I do know nobody in their right mind uses those unless forced to.

--
*Never miss a good chance to shut up *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Think single pipe systems are out of fashion these days...

Where did I mention single pipe?

With only one connector at each end of the two pipes to each rad
that's what it suggests.

To someone that has done a heating system it would suggest a rad and
a
manifold.

Ah. Another bodge. Say no more.

What's a bodge about doing it correctly?

With microbore and manifolds?

Do you know anything about modern heating?

I do know nobody in their right mind uses those unless forced to.

You are just old. ;-)

Plastic is problematic. Proper people don't use it unless they have to.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Think single pipe systems are out of fashion these days...

Where did I mention single pipe?

With only one connector at each end of the two pipes to each rad
that's what it suggests.

To someone that has done a heating system it would suggest a rad
and a manifold.

Ah. Another bodge. Say no more.

What's a bodge about doing it correctly?

With microbore and manifolds?

Do you know anything about modern heating?

I do know nobody in their right mind uses those unless forced to.

You are just old. ;-)

True. But not so old I can't hear the noise microbore makes.

--
*Why is it that to stop Windows 95, you have to click on "Start"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:18:48 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

To someone that has done a heating system it would suggest a rad and a
manifold.

Ah. Another bodge. Say no more.

What's a bodge about doing it correctly?

Manifold implies microbore implies bodge...

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/74034/...anifold-x-15mm


Can you get microbore plastic?

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/48655/...ite-50m-x-10mm

Some people are just too old to learn. ;-)

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Think single pipe systems are out of fashion these days...

Where did I mention single pipe?

With only one connector at each end of the two pipes to each rad
that's what it suggests.

To someone that has done a heating system it would suggest a rad and a
manifold.

Ah. Another bodge. Say no more.

What's a bodge about doing it correctly?

With microbore and manifolds?

Do you know anything about modern heating?

I do know nobody in their right mind uses those unless forced to.

You are just old. ;-)

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"ARWadworth" wrote in message
om...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"ARWadworth" wrote in message
om...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"ianw" wrote in message
...
On 5 May, 14:01, ianw wrote:
My neighbour is currently having their bathroom refitted by a
local
company
The hot and cold water is being plumbed in grey plastic pipe.
Is this standard practice nowadays?
Am I just old fashioned expecting copper?

Thanks.

After a chat with the plumber it seems the cost of copper is the
clincher currently.

Copper is only six times the price.

It's slightly different when you include the cost of the fittings -
assuming push fit for plastic and end feed for copper.

True you do need more fittings for copper and that will push up the
cost, but six is as good as seven in this case.


Screwfix prices

30m 15mm Copper pipe £56.97

30m 15mm JG Barrier pipe £21.99

That is about 2.6 to 1 in cost

But it is £9.97 for a 10 pack of 15mm JC elbows and only £3.60 for 10
copper elbows. That is a 2.77 to 1 cost ratio.

On a CH system you usually need more connectors than metres of
pipework.

That's because you haven't done one in plastic.. one connector at each
end of two pipes to each rad, little more.

With a comment like that, it shows who has not installed a full CH
system, plastic or otherwise.

Want a bet?

So you have done a CH install with a manifold (of course these are not
cheap) and run microbore to the rads. You might save on a few connectors but
the manifold option wastes pipe in most cases.

I can see why in a small new build it may be easier to do this, but I would
not want it in my house.

Adam

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ARWadworth wrote:
You have it in one - it's quicker and cheaper. No other benefits.

Two more benefits

1) Pikeys cannot pinch it and weigh it in.

I'd say if they have access to your house the copper may not be the first
thing to worry about.

They might gain access to my van where the stuff I need is or my shed where
the stored stuff is! So far only the van has had its load lightened and that
was while it was parked up at work. Two lengths of 15mm copper and a new
back window for the van. I do not worry about them lifting floorboards in my
house and removing the copper.

2) You can get the plastic pipe into places you cannot get copper pipe.

I have no pipes showing anywhere here - apart from obviously tails - so
I'd say that isn't a real benefit.

You would not say that if you had to get a pipe down a studded "cardboard"
wall with your head stuck in the corner of a well insulated loft to supply
an electric shower without damaging the tiled bathroom wall.

Indeed. They rarely look as good as carefully bent copper either where
this is on show. Nor do they help support flimsy sinks etc where they go
to the taps like copper can.

Why do people paint the copper tails? Polished copper ones looks better
IMHO.

*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

The option to growing old is to live for ever or die trying

Adam

On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:53:57 +0100, Jim Alexander wrote:

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...

The most common faults by far and away are not pushing the pipe fully
home. If you mark the pipe with the correct insertion depth then the
joints are at least as reliable as soldering and their long term
prospects are far better than compression joints.

What world are you in? The grab ring disintegrating is more common
that what you think. Plastic pipes with brass compression joints is
the best jointing for plastic pipes. The only proviso is that there
must be enough slack in the plastic to cope for expansion as the
expansion may pull the pipe out of the joints and olive.

I see you are still confusing expansion with contraction. Expansion
cannot cause the problem you quote, just an unsightly if visible sagging
of the pipe which actually reduces tension. For an joint made at
ambient there will not be enough contraction to cause the problem you
describe.

To come out wit that comment I question your experience in plastics.


In your own words...
To come out with that comment I question your experience in using plastic
pipe.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:53:57 +0100, Jim Alexander wrote:

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...

The most common faults by far and away are not pushing the pipe fully
home. If you mark the pipe with the correct insertion depth then the
joints are at least as reliable as soldering and their long term
prospects are far better than compression joints.

What world are you in? The grab ring disintegrating is more common
that what you think. Plastic pipes with brass compression joints is
the best jointing for plastic pipes. The only proviso is that there
must be enough slack in the plastic to cope for expansion as the
expansion may pull the pipe out of the joints and olive.

I see you are still confusing expansion with contraction. Expansion
cannot cause the problem you quote, just an unsightly if visible sagging
of the pipe which actually reduces tension. For an joint made at
ambient there will not be enough contraction to cause the problem you
describe.

To come out wit that comment I question your experience in plastics.


In your own words...
To come out with that comment I question your experience in using plastic
pipe.

I'm guessing you're replying to DD here rather than Jim Alexander?

cheers,
clive

On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:53:57 +0100, Jim Alexander wrote:

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...

The most common faults by far and away are not pushing the pipe fully
home. If you mark the pipe with the correct insertion depth then the
joints are at least as reliable as soldering and their long term
prospects are far better than compression joints.

What world are you in? The grab ring disintegrating is more common
that what you think. Plastic pipes with brass compression joints is
the best jointing for plastic pipes. The only proviso is that there
must be enough slack in the plastic to cope for expansion as the
expansion may pull the pipe out of the joints and olive.

I see you are still confusing expansion with contraction. Expansion
cannot cause the problem you quote, just an unsightly if visible sagging
of the pipe which actually reduces tension. For an joint made at
ambient there will not be enough contraction to cause the problem you
describe.

To come out wit that comment I question your experience in plastics.

Yep

Jim A



It would be useful to review the various type of pipe and fittings that
are currently available.

Copper
Pro - long history of use.
can be bent into nice shapes.
Con - expensive and very prone to theft until fitted.
needs corrosion protection.

Plastic - PB. (PolyButylene ?)
Pro Can be cabled through joists
lower heat losses.

Con unsightly - sags when cold and more when hot.
needs a few but relatively expensive joints.
negative reaction by some.
not usable for gas.

Plastic - PEX (Crosslinked i.e. stiffened PolyEthylene?)
Pro lower heat losses than copper
Con can't easily be "cabled"
as per PB.

Stainless
Pro - corrosion proof
smart
Con not easily soldered.
not suitable with push fits.

As for the joints this is my take. Criteria: Ease of making initial joint.
Chance of a good joint without further work.
Neatness, long term reliability of joint, cost, demountability.

The joints are endfeed, JG Speedfit, Cuprofit, Techtite, Hep2o,
compression (BS 864).

Obviously endfeed is only on copper.

Ease of initial jointing Hi to Lo (IMHO)
Compression (unless very limited access),
Hep, Speed, Tech, Cupro,
Endfeed.

Chance of good joint Hi to Lo (IMHO) (highly dependent on experience and
position of joints).
Endfeed, all push fits, compression.

Neatness Hi to LO (IMHO).
Endfeed, Techtite, Cupro, Compression, Hep, Speed.

long term reliability (leakage) (IMHO) Hi 2 Lo
Endfeed, Metal pushfits, plastic pushfits, compression.

Ease of demoutability/repair (HI 2 LO)
Speed, compression, Hep, Cupro, Endfeed, Techtite.

The list is not exhaustive, but I think it is fair.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:52:58 +0000, ARWadworth wrote:

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"ARWadworth" wrote in message
om...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"ianw" wrote in message
news:232177ca-e541-4a2d-8881-
...
On 5 May, 14:01, ianw wrote:
My neighbour is currently having their bathroom refitted by a
local company
The hot and cold water is being plumbed in grey plastic pipe. Is
this standard practice nowadays?
Am I just old fashioned expecting copper?

Thanks.

After a chat with the plumber it seems the cost of copper is the
clincher currently.

Copper is only six times the price.

It's slightly different when you include the cost of the fittings -
assuming push fit for plastic and end feed for copper.

True you do need more fittings for copper and that will push up the
cost, but six is as good as seven in this case.


Screwfix prices

30m 15mm Copper pipe £56.97

30m 15mm JG Barrier pipe £21.99

That is about 2.6 to 1 in cost

But it is £9.97 for a 10 pack of 15mm JC elbows and only £3.60 for 10
copper elbows. That is a 2.77 to 1 cost ratio.

On a CH system you usually need more connectors than metres of
pipework.

That's because you haven't done one in plastic.. one connector at each
end of two pipes to each rad, little more.

With a comment like that, it shows who has not installed a full CH
system, plastic or otherwise.

Adam

Sorry, Adam, I with dennis on this one.

When you are installing Ch with a suspended floor construction from
scratch, you really are looking at an elbow under each rad tail and one
length of PB pipe to each end.

Using cable insertion tools to get a rope under the floor and then drag a
pair of 15mm "Heps" from one side of the room to the other.

Obviously there will be other fittings involved.

Overall I'd say that the the material cost is now evens overall
the big saving is installation time.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Wed, 07 May 2008 14:55:09 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:18:48 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

To someone that has done a heating system it would suggest a rad and
a manifold.

Ah. Another bodge. Say no more.

What's a bodge about doing it correctly?

Manifold implies microbore
No.
implies bodge...
Maybe, maybe not.


Can you get microbore plastic?
Yes.

Typically say you were doing a first floor flat.

you'd put the rads in each room and you bring the pipes to the passage
way. 2 or 3 rads would join using 15mm equal tees. A couple of groups of
2 or 3 rads would make 22mm.

Or you might have a 22mm 'backbone' and use 15mm side branches.

If you had four rooms come to together you might consider and 22 to 4x15
manifold but there again you might just roll-your-own with T fittings.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:53:16 +0100, me9 wrote:

On 6 May,
Ed Sirett wrote:

I bought a 25m real of PB (grey) pipe for about £25 quid last week. I'd
pay about £47 for 30m of Cu. That's not even 2:1. It's the installation
time that is the clincher.

I hate the (usually) white PEX plastic pipe. It is just to stiff to be
a big advantage over copper.

Is there any good reason why (blue) MDPE can't be used for indoor cold
water services, apart from appearance? It's even cheaper, more flexible
and seems to work well out of sight.

20mm is only the equivalent of 15mm PB and is (IMHO) much stiffer than PC
pipe. The fittings for the MDPE are enourmous even next to Speedfits


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"ARWadworth" wrote in message
news

So you have done a CH install with a manifold (of course these are not
cheap) and run microbore to the rads. You might save on a few connectors
but the manifold option wastes pipe in most cases.

Yes, manifold to 15 mm, 15 mm to five zone valves, zone valves to rads and
cylinder, return to manifold.
What is the problem?
Do you think five zones with timer stats is overdoing a semi or is there
something else?

It sounds like massive overkill for a semi.
I do not have a problem with such a design (apart from the fact I hate
manifolds).
Could/did the costs of the install get a full pay back on the fuel bill?

It wasn't plastic BTW as plastic wasn't around when I first did it.

I do not know when plastic started to be used. Was Acorn one of the first?

Adam

"ARWadworth" wrote in message
news

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"ARWadworth" wrote in message
om...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"ARWadworth" wrote in message
om...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"ianw" wrote in message
...
On 5 May, 14:01, ianw wrote:
My neighbour is currently having their bathroom refitted by a
local
company
The hot and cold water is being plumbed in grey plastic pipe.
Is this standard practice nowadays?
Am I just old fashioned expecting copper?

Thanks.

After a chat with the plumber it seems the cost of copper is the
clincher currently.

Copper is only six times the price.

It's slightly different when you include the cost of the fittings -
assuming push fit for plastic and end feed for copper.

True you do need more fittings for copper and that will push up the
cost, but six is as good as seven in this case.


Screwfix prices

30m 15mm Copper pipe £56.97

30m 15mm JG Barrier pipe £21.99

That is about 2.6 to 1 in cost

But it is £9.97 for a 10 pack of 15mm JC elbows and only £3.60 for 10
copper elbows. That is a 2.77 to 1 cost ratio.

On a CH system you usually need more connectors than metres of
pipework.

That's because you haven't done one in plastic.. one connector at each
end of two pipes to each rad, little more.

With a comment like that, it shows who has not installed a full CH
system, plastic or otherwise.

Want a bet?

So you have done a CH install with a manifold (of course these are not
cheap) and run microbore to the rads. You might save on a few connectors
but the manifold option wastes pipe in most cases.

I can see why in a small new build it may be easier to do this, but I
would not want it in my house.

You wouldn't want something that is easy to install, maintain and is
probably more reliable?
Why?
I bet you are one of those die hards that thought coax Ethernet was/is
better than TP.

"ARWadworth" wrote in message
news

So you have done a CH install with a manifold (of course these are not
cheap) and run microbore to the rads. You might save on a few connectors
but the manifold option wastes pipe in most cases.

Yes, manifold to 15 mm, 15 mm to five zone valves, zone valves to rads and
cylinder, return to manifold.
What is the problem?
Do you think five zones with timer stats is overdoing a semi or is there
something else?
It wasn't plastic BTW as plastic wasn't around when I first did it.

"ARWadworth" wrote in message
om...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"ARWadworth" wrote in message
news

So you have done a CH install with a manifold (of course these are not
cheap) and run microbore to the rads. You might save on a few connectors
but the manifold option wastes pipe in most cases.

Yes, manifold to 15 mm, 15 mm to five zone valves, zone valves to rads
and cylinder, return to manifold.
What is the problem?
Do you think five zones with timer stats is overdoing a semi or is there
something else?

It sounds like massive overkill for a semi.
I do not have a problem with such a design (apart from the fact I hate
manifolds).
Could/did the costs of the install get a full pay back on the fuel bill?

I imagine so, its been in for 20 years.


It wasn't plastic BTW as plastic wasn't around when I first did it.

I do not know when plastic started to be used. Was Acorn one of the first?

You could get the brown PB stuff then but it wasn't really suitable for CH.


Adam

"Clive George" wrote in message
news:Ltydne4oYfkUc7zVnZ2dnUVZ8tyqnZ2d@plusnet...
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:53:57 +0100, Jim Alexander wrote:

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...

The most common faults by far and away are not pushing the pipe fully
home. If you mark the pipe with the correct insertion depth then the
joints are at least as reliable as soldering and their long term
prospects are far better than compression joints.

What world are you in? The grab ring disintegrating is more common
that what you think. Plastic pipes with brass compression joints is
the best jointing for plastic pipes. The only proviso is that there
must be enough slack in the plastic to cope for expansion as the
expansion may pull the pipe out of the joints and olive.

I see you are still confusing expansion with contraction. Expansion
cannot cause the problem you quote, just an unsightly if visible sagging
of the pipe which actually reduces tension. For an joint made at
ambient there will not be enough contraction to cause the problem you
describe.

To come out wit that comment I question your experience in plastics.


In your own words...
To come out with that comment I question your experience in using plastic
pipe.

I'm guessing you're replying to DD here rather than Jim Alexander?

He had better not. I will blind the man with science.

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
It would be useful to review the various type of pipe and fittings that
are currently available.

Copper
Pro - long history of use.
can be bent into nice shapes.
Con - expensive and very prone to theft until fitted.
needs corrosion protection.

Plastic - PB. (PolyButylene ?)
Pro Can be cabled through joists
lower heat losses.

Con unsightly - sags when cold and more when hot.
needs a few but relatively expensive joints.
negative reaction by some.
not usable for gas.

Plastic - PEX (Crosslinked i.e. stiffened PolyEthylene?)
Pro lower heat losses than copper
Con can't easily be "cabled"
as per PB.

Stainless
Pro - corrosion proof
smart
Con not easily soldered.
not suitable with push fits.

As for the joints this is my take. Criteria: Ease of making initial joint.
Chance of a good joint without further work.
Neatness, long term reliability of joint, cost, demountability.

The joints are endfeed, JG Speedfit, Cuprofit, Techtite, Hep2o,
compression (BS 864).

Obviously endfeed is only on copper.

Ease of initial jointing Hi to Lo (IMHO)
Compression (unless very limited access),
Hep, Speed, Tech, Cupro,
Endfeed.

Chance of good joint Hi to Lo (IMHO) (highly dependent on experience and
position of joints).
Endfeed, all push fits, compression.

Compression is last? Not if you buy quality joints it is isn't. I bet you
use the cheapo Chinese/Italian crap. Buy Conex, even Screwfix sell them
now.

Neatness Hi to LO (IMHO).
Endfeed, Techtite, Cupro, Compression, Hep, Speed.

long term reliability (leakage) (IMHO) Hi 2 Lo
Endfeed, Metal pushfits, plastic pushfits, compression.

Oh NO! Not again!! Compression is last? Not if you buy quality joints it
is isn't. I bet you use the cheapo Chinese/Italian crap. Buy Conex, even
Screwfix sell them now.

Again!!! Best use good quality compression joints on plastic pipes with
the correct insert. The advantage of threading is still there and a far
superior joint too. I know heating companies that have given up on pushfits
and only use compression for jointing plastic pipe. They don't like
comebacks, pushfits given that.

Also, plastic pipe has inserts which reduces the internal bore and can be a
point of sludge build up.

Ease of demoutability/repair (HI 2 LO)
Speed, compression, Hep, Cupro, Endfeed, Techtite.

The list is not exhaustive, but I think it is fair.

The most problematic joints are pushfit, plastic or copper/brass - by a
mile. When they fail it tends to be catastrophic with joints shooting off
pipes. The resistance to pressure of some plastic pipe seriously reduces
when hot. If near boiling they can easily split.

I know of instances where pushfits have failed after months after being
pressure tested. Also of sites where the average failure is 1 per house.
Ceiling falling in as open ends pour out is more common than what the makers
like to admit.

I would use it only where it is easy to thread and preferably on cold water
if possible. Good for garages, as they resist frost better than copper.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Think single pipe systems are out of fashion these days...

Where did I mention single pipe?

With only one connector at each end of the two pipes to each rad
that's what it suggests.

To someone that has done a heating system it would suggest a rad and a
manifold.

Ah. Another bodge. Say no more.

What's a bodge about doing it correctly?

With microbore and manifolds?

Do you know anything about modern heating?

I do know nobody in their right mind uses those unless forced to.

Using manifolds is superior.

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...

Overall I'd say that the the material cost is now evens overall
the big saving is installation time.

If done properly installation time is no quicker. Plastic requires more
clipping to reduce stress on joints.

On Thu, 08 May 2008 08:05:49 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Clive George" wrote in message
news:Ltydne4oYfkUc7zVnZ2dnUVZ8tyqnZ2d@plusnet...
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:53:57 +0100, Jim Alexander wrote:

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...

The most common faults by far and away are not pushing the pipe
fully home. If you mark the pipe with the correct insertion depth
then the joints are at least as reliable as soldering and their
long term prospects are far better than compression joints.

What world are you in? The grab ring disintegrating is more common
that what you think. Plastic pipes with brass compression joints is
the best jointing for plastic pipes. The only proviso is that there
must be enough slack in the plastic to cope for expansion as the
expansion may pull the pipe out of the joints and olive.

I see you are still confusing expansion with contraction. Expansion
cannot cause the problem you quote, just an unsightly if visible
sagging of the pipe which actually reduces tension. For an joint
made at ambient there will not be enough contraction to cause the
problem you describe.

To come out wit that comment I question your experience in plastics.


In your own words...
To come out with that comment I question your experience in using
plastic pipe.

I'm guessing you're replying to DD here rather than Jim Alexander?

He had better not. I will blind the man with science.

ROTFL.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 May 2008 08:05:49 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Clive George" wrote in message
news:Ltydne4oYfkUc7zVnZ2dnUVZ8tyqnZ2d@plusnet...
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:53:57 +0100, Jim Alexander wrote:

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...

The most common faults by far and away are not pushing the pipe
fully home. If you mark the pipe with the correct insertion depth
then the joints are at least as reliable as soldering and their
long term prospects are far better than compression joints.

What world are you in? The grab ring disintegrating is more common
that what you think. Plastic pipes with brass compression joints is
the best jointing for plastic pipes. The only proviso is that there
must be enough slack in the plastic to cope for expansion as the
expansion may pull the pipe out of the joints and olive.

I see you are still confusing expansion with contraction. Expansion
cannot cause the problem you quote, just an unsightly if visible
sagging of the pipe which actually reduces tension. For an joint
made at ambient there will not be enough contraction to cause the
problem you describe.

To come out wit that comment I question your experience in plastics.


In your own words...
To come out with that comment I question your experience in using
plastic pipe.

I'm guessing you're replying to DD here rather than Jim Alexander?

He had better not. I will blind the man with science.

ROTFL.

If what you write is your experiences then you need more experience with
plastic pipes. As your experiences do not match the industry as whole.
Take note of people who know more.

On Thu, 08 May 2008 21:00:54 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 May 2008 08:05:49 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Clive George" wrote in message
news:Ltydne4oYfkUc7zVnZ2dnUVZ8tyqnZ2d@plusnet...
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:53:57 +0100, Jim Alexander wrote:

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...

The most common faults by far and away are not pushing the pipe
fully home. If you mark the pipe with the correct insertion depth
then the joints are at least as reliable as soldering and their
long term prospects are far better than compression joints.

What world are you in? The grab ring disintegrating is more
common that what you think. Plastic pipes with brass compression
joints is the best jointing for plastic pipes. The only proviso is
that there must be enough slack in the plastic to cope for
expansion as the expansion may pull the pipe out of the joints and
olive.

I see you are still confusing expansion with contraction.
Expansion cannot cause the problem you quote, just an unsightly if
visible sagging of the pipe which actually reduces tension. For an
joint made at ambient there will not be enough contraction to cause
the problem you describe.

To come out wit that comment I question your experience in
plastics.


In your own words...
To come out with that comment I question your experience in using
plastic pipe.

I'm guessing you're replying to DD here rather than Jim Alexander?

He had better not. I will blind the man with science.

ROTFL.

If what you write is your experiences then you need more experience with
plastic pipes. As your experiences do not match the industry as whole.
Take note of people who know more.

It is possible that the 'industry as a whole' has a problem with plastic
pipe. This is clearly not universal or a problem I have encountered. I
have done several heating systems from scratch using significant amounts
of plastic pipe. I have not had call backs on account of the pipe or push
fittings.

It is just possible that a multi-unit house builder using lack lustre
labour who neither check their work or have any inclination to read
instructions have had systematic problems with push-fittings.

I do try to take account of people who know more. When I discover
conflicting data then I have to weight the various opinions/evidences.
That will in turn depend amongst many things on the credibility of the
source...


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...

If what you write is your experiences then you need more experience with
plastic pipes. As your experiences do not match the industry as whole.
Take note of people who know more.

It is possible that the 'industry as a whole' has a problem with plastic
pipe. This is clearly not universal or a problem I have encountered. I
have done several heating systems from scratch using significant amounts
of plastic pipe. I have not had call backs on account of the pipe or push
fittings.

It is just possible that a multi-unit house builder using lack lustre
labour who neither check their work or have any inclination to read
instructions have had systematic problems with push-fittings.

I do try to take account of people who know more. When I discover
conflicting data then I have to weight the various opinions/evidences.
That will in turn depend amongst many things on the credibility of the
source...

I know a number of men who install plastic pipes in new builds. Not one said
they would have it in their own homes. They all say it is no quicker than
soldered copper in first fix, as the house is an empty shell anyhow.
Plastic is used so the Pikeys do not rip out the copper. On some sites they
will get unskilled labour to fit the plastic pipes and a pro to do the
difficult second fix usually in copper as it is on show (plastic pipe puts
punters off), test and sign off.

On sizable sites all first fix is pressure tested. Occasionally one
push-fit fitting will go after the new owner has moved in - even after 15
bar pressure testing. They have had a few ceilings collapse. The main
complaint with installers is that the fittings are too hard too push on,
even with grease (which need flushing out - so much for push and go and just
a fill as one makers at one time was lauding). The most difficult Hep2O
fittings were 12mm. After a few systems under performed, they had to up
some 12mm to 15mm and 22m to 28mm, as the pipe inserts reduced the internal
bore. The pipe inserts are a point for blockages after a number of years.

I also know a heating company, that does not do site work. After too many
problems with push fit, they went over to using quality compression joints
on plastic pipe, only using plastic pipe where needed like threading. They
have not had one come back using compression joints. The only use Hep20 as
the pipe inserts are metal - Speedfit are plastic. They avoid Speedfit pipe
as it is too rigid and is not quicker than installing copper. On the H&C
side they use non-barrier Hep2O as it is more flexible. I asked them how
much would they use in a typical system they said most systems they install
an element of plastic, but not much of it. They said threading long lengths
and not clipping the centre part of the length is against the regs anyway,
which is true.

On 2008-05-07 17:28:59 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

True. But not so old I can't hear the noise microbore makes.

That only happens if the pie is used beyond its rating - i.e. trying to
supply too large a radiator and having the flow rate too high as a
result.

On 2008-05-08 08:05:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

He had better not. I will blind the man with science.

Such as your newly refined technique for cutting plastic pipe with a
hacksaw, contrary to manufacturer's instructions and producing a flood?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:482a607d@qaanaaq...
On 2008-05-08 08:05:49 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

He had better not. I will blind the man with science.

Such as your newly refined technique for cutting plastic pipe with a
hacksaw, contrary to manufacturer's instructions and producing a flood?

Matt, please cut all your plastic pipe with a hacksaw and do not trim off.
That is important to you. Do not trim off. Please do.