My brother who lives in the NE of Scotland has finally cut his losses with
his Potterton Envoy which has broken down more times than any other boiler
I've heard of and had it replaced by Scottish Gas with their own brand
made by Bosch Worcester. For the reasonable sum of 1200 quid.

This was only completed yesterday, and he phoned me last night for some
advice before getting them back in.

Seems it's pumping over - and badly. Quite an achievement given the
header tank is a whole floor above the highest rad - the attic floor of
the very large house being unheated.

He'd rescued the installation instructions from the rubbish and couldn't
find any instructions for setting the maximum (integral) pump speed. Or
indeed anything about it being used on an open vented system.

The Potterton utilised the old pump and divertor valve from the original
installation whereas now they've remove the old pump and are using the
internal one.

He can't find a reference number that refers to any Bosch Worcester one so
can't look it up for help on their site.

He was told it is actually a combi with the hot water side unused.

Given the last straw with the Potterton was the heat exchanger split while
he was on holiday and badly flooded the utility room I'd have thought
they'd have recommended changing to a sealed system anyway.

Any comments from the experts?

--
*If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote


The Potterton utilised the old pump and divertor valve from the original
installation whereas now they've remove the old pump and are using the
internal one.

He can't find a reference number that refers to any Bosch Worcester one so
can't look it up for help on their site.

He was told it is actually a combi with the hot water side unused.

Given the last straw with the Potterton was the heat exchanger split while
he was on holiday and badly flooded the utility room I'd have thought
they'd have recommended changing to a sealed system anyway.

Any comments from the experts?

--
Without serious detail regarding pipe work layout, position of pump, valves,
make up water etc it's difficult to comment.
However, I have a Worcester Bosch 24Ri non-combi which works fine on a
vented system.
Fitting it did involve a lot of re-piping though, because the previous
arrangement had a pumped return which none of the boiler manufacturers these
days seem to agree with.

Phil

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:47:00 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

My brother who lives in the NE of Scotland has finally cut his losses with
his Potterton Envoy which has broken down more times than any other boiler
I've heard of and had it replaced by Scottish Gas with their own brand
made by Bosch Worcester. For the reasonable sum of 1200 quid.

This was only completed yesterday, and he phoned me last night for some
advice before getting them back in.

Seems it's pumping over - and badly. Quite an achievement given the
header tank is a whole floor above the highest rad - the attic floor of
the very large house being unheated.

The height of the header is irrelevant, it's the relative position where
the feed and vent pipes connect to the main return (or possibly flow)
pipework.

He'd rescued the installation instructions from the rubbish

If the installers hadn't left the installation instructions with the
boiler (and filled in the logbook) the installation hasn't been completed
correctly. The instructions are considered a part of the installation.


and couldn't
find any instructions for setting the maximum (integral) pump speed. Or
indeed anything about it being used on an open vented system.

The Potterton utilised the old pump and divertor valve from the original
installation whereas now they've remove the old pump and are using the
internal one.

He can't find a reference number that refers to any Bosch Worcester one
so can't look it up for help on their site.

He could compare with pictures of known W-Bs, or post us a picture we
could have a go at.

He was told it is actually a combi with the hot water side unused.

Easy enough to see if it has 2nd brass connection from the left
unconnected (preferably blanked off).

I don't think any of the current W-B greenstar (condensing) combis are
specified for use on vented (header tank in attic) systems, in which
case the system should have been converted to sealed. Sounds like a cowboy
job that needs sorting, and that Scottish Gas make British Gas look good.
If he hasn't yet paid for it I suggest he doesn't, and if he has I suggest
he stops payment if possible.

--
John Stumbles

Testiculate [v.t]
To wave one's arms around while talking ********.

In article ,
John Stumbles wrote:
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:47:00 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Seems it's pumping over - and badly. Quite an achievement given the
header tank is a whole floor above the highest rad - the attic floor of
the very large house being unheated.

The height of the header is irrelevant, it's the relative position where
the feed and vent pipes connect to the main return (or possibly flow)
pipework.

Don't you require enough head from the pump to overcome the friction of
the system and if the header tank is only just above the highest rad
there is more chance of pumping over? But it did work ok before with
the Potterton - and as far as I've been told the only alteration was to
the position of the pump.

He'd rescued the installation instructions from the rubbish

If the installers hadn't left the installation instructions with the
boiler (and filled in the logbook) the installation hasn't been completed
correctly. The instructions are considered a part of the installation.

Don't think that was done but I'll check. They left the owner's manual,
though.


and couldn't
find any instructions for setting the maximum (integral) pump speed. Or
indeed anything about it being used on an open vented system.

The Potterton utilised the old pump and divertor valve from the
original installation whereas now they've remove the old pump and are
using the internal one.

He can't find a reference number that refers to any Bosch Worcester one
so can't look it up for help on their site.

He could compare with pictures of known W-Bs, or post us a picture we
could have a go at.

Heh heh. He doesn't have a computer. ;-)

He was told it is actually a combi with the hot water side unused.

Easy enough to see if it has 2nd brass connection from the left
unconnected (preferably blanked off).

I don't think any of the current W-B greenstar (condensing) combis are
specified for use on vented (header tank in attic) systems, in which
case the system should have been converted to sealed. Sounds like a
cowboy job that needs sorting, and that Scottish Gas make British Gas
look good. If he hasn't yet paid for it I suggest he doesn't, and if he
has I suggest he stops payment if possible.

This is what's worrying me. My quick glance at their site suggested they
all have modulating pumps and I don't see how they could work on an open
vented system - unless you could set a maximum speed.
Scottish Gas employed a contractor to do the work.

--
*Learn from your parents' mistakes - use birth control

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John Stumbles wrote:
I don't think any of the current W-B greenstar (condensing) combis are
specified for use on vented (header tank in attic) systems, in which
case the system should have been converted to sealed. Sounds like a
cowboy job that needs sorting, and that Scottish Gas make British Gas
look good. If he hasn't yet paid for it I suggest he doesn't, and if he
has I suggest he stops payment if possible.

Having now had a chance to look at the W-B site I'd say you are right -
all the suitable ones seem to have modulating pumps with integral
expansion vessels. Of course one made for Scottish Gas may be different.
The fitter has been back and agreed there is a problem but hasn't said
how he'll fix it - except that 'we have the technology'. Doesn't give you
much confidence, does it?

--
*Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are (usually) unnecessary *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

and as far as I've been told the only alteration was to
the position of the pump.


My original system had a pumped return and relied on the flow from the
boiler to act as the (safety) vent as well.
If he has moved the pump from the return side to the flow side, and the
system was piped like mine, then he will have compromised the vent as well
as introducing the pump over!

Phil

In article ,
TheScullster wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

and as far as I've been told the only alteration was to
the position of the pump.


My original system had a pumped return and relied on the flow from the
boiler to act as the (safety) vent as well. If he has moved the pump
from the return side to the flow side, and the system was piped like
mine, then he will have compromised the vent as well as introducing the
pump over!

Oh dear. Unfortunately it's a bit difficult to find out - my brother won't
even remove the boiler case.

--
*Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 01 May 2008 10:11:04 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
John Stumbles wrote:
I don't think any of the current W-B greenstar (condensing) combis are
specified for use on vented (header tank in attic) systems, in which
case the system should have been converted to sealed. Sounds like a
cowboy job that needs sorting, and that Scottish Gas make British Gas
look good. If he hasn't yet paid for it I suggest he doesn't, and if he
has I suggest he stops payment if possible.

Having now had a chance to look at the W-B site I'd say you are right -
all the suitable ones seem to have modulating pumps with integral
expansion vessels. Of course one made for Scottish Gas may be different.


Different badge on the front. I don't think W-B and SG are going to pay
to develop and get approval for a different design just for their market.


The fitter has been back and agreed there is a problem but hasn't said
how he'll fix it - except that 'we have the technology'. Doesn't give
you much confidence, does it?

I'd be inclined to get on to Scottish Gas and ask them to get an installer
who knows how many beans makes five to sort it out. If they don't jump
I'd give CORGI a ring and check on the credentials of the installers. If he
has their registration number (e.g. on the benchmark log book) he could
check that it matches the people who did the work. If he hasn't he could
say that he wonders if they really were registered installers and could
they (CORGI) investigate? (Unregistered installers are CORGI's bete noir
at the moment.)

--
John Stumbles

Women always generalise

In article ,
John Stumbles wrote:
The fitter has been back and agreed there is a problem but hasn't said
how he'll fix it - except that 'we have the technology'. Doesn't give
you much confidence, does it?

I'd be inclined to get on to Scottish Gas and ask them to get an
installer who knows how many beans makes five to sort it out. If they
don't jump I'd give CORGI a ring and check on the credentials of the
installers. If he has their registration number (e.g. on the benchmark
log book) he could check that it matches the people who did the work. If
he hasn't he could say that he wonders if they really were registered
installers and could they (CORGI) investigate? (Unregistered installers
are CORGI's bete noir at the moment.)

Seems now they are going to convert it to sealed. Next week sometime.
But it begs the question of just why they didn't do this in the first
place. Not everyone is going to look in the roof space or even know that
pumping over is wrong. Call me cynical but it's not something you do by
mistake or omit through carelessness - he did put inhibitor in, and left
the empty container by the tank.

--
*Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 2 May 2008 07:25:26 UTC, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
John Stumbles wrote:
The fitter has been back and agreed there is a problem but hasn't said
how he'll fix it - except that 'we have the technology'. Doesn't give
you much confidence, does it?

I'd be inclined to get on to Scottish Gas and ask them to get an
installer who knows how many beans makes five to sort it out. If they
don't jump I'd give CORGI a ring and check on the credentials of the
installers. If he has their registration number (e.g. on the benchmark
log book) he could check that it matches the people who did the work. If
he hasn't he could say that he wonders if they really were registered
installers and could they (CORGI) investigate? (Unregistered installers
are CORGI's bete noir at the moment.)

Seems now they are going to convert it to sealed. Next week sometime.
But it begs the question of just why they didn't do this in the first
place. Not everyone is going to look in the roof space or even know that
pumping over is wrong. Call me cynical but it's not something you do by
mistake or omit through carelessness - he did put inhibitor in, and left
the empty container by the tank.

Well...he left an empty container by the tank, anyway...

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...

Well...he left an empty container by the tank, anyway...

A trick by cowboy installers is to leave an empty container near the tank,
when they haven't put any in at all. The rotting rads comes 5 years later.

On Fri, 2 May 2008 10:00:10 UTC, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...

Well...he left an empty container by the tank, anyway...

A trick by cowboy installers is to leave an empty container near the tank,
when they haven't put any in at all. The rotting rads comes 5 years later.

What I said.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com