Grunff wrote:

I know - it's puzzled me too. I concluded that the bowing wall must be
pushing the porch out with it. I think if the porch was going to sink it
would just detatch from the house. I could be wrong.

I suppose that might prove a cheap solution. Take down the porch and
build a decent foundation under it. Then rebuild it, and it can act as a
buttress to prevent further movement of the wall!




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Grunff" wrote
| The Natural Philosopher wrote:
| The most important thing is that they have insurance. If you ask your
| local building inspector I am sure he will know who to use.
| Just spoke to them, and they're sorry, but they just can't
| recommend anyone.

Not sure if my posting last night made it through; to repeat myself:

You want a Structural Engineer who will be MIStructE (Member of the
Institute of Structural Engineers - www.istructe.org.uk but I don't think
they have an online member listing[1]) and CEng as well.

Owain

[1] They do have http://www.findanengineer.com/ but it's a paid-for listing
rather than a comprehensive register of members. You could try a local
reference library for the IStructE Sessional Yearbook and Directory of
Members

Owain wrote:

Not sure if my posting last night made it through; to repeat myself:

You want a Structural Engineer who will be MIStructE (Member of the
Institute of Structural Engineers - www.istructe.org.uk but I don't think
they have an online member listing[1]) and CEng as well.

Thanks. They appear to be in very short supply around here. I've
spoken to someone who sounds competent, who will come and do a
survey next week. Will keep you posted.

--
Grunff

http://ixxa.com/alchey/hi.jpg

Hope you've got a ride on mower.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:

Hope you've got a ride on mower.

You need a graden to use one of them - we haven't made a garden
yet. Just yard and fields.

--
Grunff

Grunff wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Lovely. If you do rebuild, and need a shoulder to cry on, give us a
shout :-)


Oh don't you worry - you're already on my list :-). Thanks.


I also discovered I can do a good job on design, apart from the
structural bits, which I left to the architect..Someone asked me 'who
designed your house?' and after a lot of thought, I realised that how
it looks and how it works is entirely me, but how its built is 80% the
architect, 5% the structural engineers and 25% the blokes who built it.


There's a bit of me which would really like to rebuild - it'd be nice to
get exactly what we want, rather than a big compromise. However, there's
another (bigger) bit of me which would like to save 80k. So I'm kind of
hoping we're forced down the rebuild route, but unless we have to, it's
unlikely we'd do it.

The thing about our place is that the spot is perfect - 16 acres of
south facing slope, with the house slap bang in the middle of it. That's
why we were quite happy to buy it despite the awful state of the house.

http://ixxa.com/alchey/hi.jpg

The blue line is our boundary, and the pink dot in the middle is the
house. We've no intention of moving, so we just have to figure out how
best to use what we have - whether it's rebuilding or fixing up the
existing house.


OOh. Can I come and shoot rabbits and fly model planes there please!

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

OOh. Can I come and shoot rabbits and fly model planes there please!

Model planes - anytime. I do plenty of that. As for rabbits,
SWMBO would have a blue fit. Very animal friendly, and very
gun-unfriendly. Besides, the cat eats most of them.

--
Grunff

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:24:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Grunff wrote:

snip

The blue line is our boundary, and the pink dot in the middle is the
house. We've no intention of moving, so we just have to figure out how
best to use what we have - whether it's rebuilding or fixing up the
existing house.


OOh. Can I come and shoot rabbits and fly model planes there please!


Try a more tempting offer such as taking a model /helicopter and
flying it upside down over Grunff's fields. He doesn't have one of
those sit-on mowers and might welcome the grass being cut. ;-)


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

Try a more tempting offer such as taking a model /helicopter and
flying it upside down over Grunff's fields. He doesn't have one of
those sit-on mowers and might welcome the grass being cut. ;-)

Hmmm...there's a thought...

--
Grunff

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:40:01 +0100, Grunff wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

OOh. Can I come and shoot rabbits and fly model planes there please!

Model planes - anytime. I do plenty of that. As for rabbits,
SWMBO would have a blue fit. Very animal friendly, and very
gun-unfriendly. Besides, the cat eats most of them.

Can I come and shoot at the planes then? ;O)

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

"Grunff" wrote in message


Background - our house was built in the 30s, has a square
footprint around 8x8m, and has no foundations to speak of. It's
made of stone + lime mortar, and the walls are between 50 and
60cm thick.

It doesn't take much for me to make a tit of myself. In this case it was
a combination of your writing and my reading.

Where are you living? Germany? (......152899.news.uni-berlin.de) I think
it unlikely that your house would have been built without foundations
even in the financial straits of the time. I believe the building style
would have been to find a rock base to put the house on and to
incorporate a technique of some kind for limiting damp.

When we bought it 2 years ago, we noticed that the back wall had
at some point in the past bowed, so that while it's still
attached to the outer walls, it's come away from the internal
partition walls, causing a lot of cracks between the end wall
and the partitions, and the end wall and the ground floor ceilings.

It is unusual for a 2 ft stone wall to have an internal and an external
skin. 8 metres is not a gianormous edifice for a country house. Is it an
old semi derelict cottage you are rebuilding? Or is it a town house you
are struggling to hold together? Describe how the wall partitions have
separated, please.

We filled these cracks so that we may study future movement. Two
years on, the wall seems to have shifted by another mm or so.

This crack showed 1mm extra bowing in an outwardly mobile direction?

The wall isn't sinking - there are no cracks at floor level
downstairs. The cracks appear about 1m above floor level, and
increase in size as you go upwards.

This sounds suspiciously like the roof is pushing the house out.

Similarly, the wall is still firmly attached to the two exterior
side walls. So it's only moving outwards in the middle. It's bowing.

If I were you I should check what supporting walls have been removed and
whilst you are at it I would see how much the floor joists have got to
go before they come out the wall at the worst part.

I know the traditional fix for this is to tie the two opposing
walls together with steel tie rods, and spread the load on the
outside of the walls using steel plates.

So what’s the problem? If you can afford it do it. If not, sell up.

I am considering doing this to our house. The obvious place to
run the steel rods is between the floor and ceiling. This would
be fine, since they'd run parallel to the joists.

I don’t know what I was thinking of in my previous posts. A '70's UK
cavity wall semi, built on a concrete pad with failed wall ties –
butterfly shaped wire connectors to tie the outer and inner leaves of a
wall together every 3 or 4 courses. What you are hoping to do is pull
the house together with steel jacks. I think it is impossible to rectify
the damage; the metal is to help stop it getting worse.

Has anyone done this before, and do you have any advice to
offer? Is there anywhere when I could read up on this? Basic
stuff - like how big the rods should be, how big the plates
should be, how far apart, how many (two seems very common), that
kind of thing.

What sort of inane questions do you suppose belong on a group called UK
DIY? You have been told to seek professional help you retard, go and get
it.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Michael Mcneil wrote:

Where are you living? Germany?

Devon.


it unlikely that your house would have been built without foundations
even in the financial straits of the time. I believe the building style
would have been to find a rock base to put the house on and to
incorporate a technique of some kind for limiting damp.

Not much of a rock bed, but a shallow loose stone foundation.


It is unusual for a 2 ft stone wall to have an internal and an external
skin.

And indeed it doesn't - just solid stone.


8 metres is not a gianormous edifice for a country house. Is it an
old semi derelict cottage you are rebuilding?

Yes - sort of.


Or is it a town house you
are struggling to hold together? Describe how the wall partitions have
separated, please.

Ok, the house has a square footprint. The only structural walls
are the 4 outer walls. But intenally, it's divided up using
block partition walls. The movement of the outer wall is
evidenced by cracks where the interior partition wall (p) meets
the outer walls.

In this diagram, the top wall (which represents the house's
south facing external wall) is no longer very flat - it's
slightly convex.

________________
| p |
| p |
| p |
|ppppppppppppppp|
| p |
| p |
________p_______|


This crack showed 1mm extra bowing in an outwardly mobile direction?

Yup.


This sounds suspiciously like the roof is pushing the house out.

You'd think that - but the greatest deflection of the outer wall
is not at roof level - it's at first floor floor level.


If I were you I should check what supporting walls have been removed and
whilst you are at it I would see how much the floor joists have got to
go before they come out the wall at the worst part.

No supporting walls have been removed. The joists have a good
few inches yet.


So what’s the problem? If you can afford it do it. If not, sell up.

I have no intention of selling up, and every intention of
implementing a fix. I just wanted the group's experiences.



I don’t know what I was thinking of in my previous posts. A '70's UK
cavity wall semi, built on a concrete pad with failed wall ties –
butterfly shaped wire connectors to tie the outer and inner leaves of a
wall together every 3 or 4 courses. What you are hoping to do is pull
the house together with steel jacks. I think it is impossible to rectify
the damage; the metal is to help stop it getting worse.

Exactly.



What sort of inane questions do you suppose belong on a group called UK
DIY? You have been told to seek professional help you retard, go and get
it.

Eh??

--
Grunff

Michael Mcneil wrote:

Where are you living? Germany?

Devon.


it unlikely that your house would have been built without foundations
even in the financial straits of the time. I believe the building style
would have been to find a rock base to put the house on and to
incorporate a technique of some kind for limiting damp.

Not much of a rock bed, but a shallow loose stone foundation.


It is unusual for a 2 ft stone wall to have an internal and an external
skin.

And indeed it doesn't - just solid stone.


8 metres is not a gianormous edifice for a country house. Is it an
old semi derelict cottage you are rebuilding?

Yes - sort of.


Or is it a town house you
are struggling to hold together? Describe how the wall partitions have
separated, please.

Ok, the house has a square footprint. The only structural walls
are the 4 outer walls. But intenally, it's divided up using
block partition walls. The movement of the outer wall is
evidenced by cracks where the interior partition wall (p) meets
the outer walls.

In this diagram, the top wall (which represents the house's
south facing external wall) is no longer very flat - it's
slightly convex.

________________
| p |
| p |
| p |
|ppppppppppppppp|
| p |
| p |
________p_______|


This crack showed 1mm extra bowing in an outwardly mobile direction?

Yup.


This sounds suspiciously like the roof is pushing the house out.

You'd think that - but the greatest deflection of the outer wall
is not at roof level - it's at first floor floor level.


If I were you I should check what supporting walls have been removed and
whilst you are at it I would see how much the floor joists have got to
go before they come out the wall at the worst part.

No supporting walls have been removed. The joists have a good
few inches yet.


So what’s the problem? If you can afford it do it. If not, sell up.

I have no intention of selling up, and every intention of
implementing a fix. I just wanted the group's experiences.



I don’t know what I was thinking of in my previous posts. A '70's UK
cavity wall semi, built on a concrete pad with failed wall ties –
butterfly shaped wire connectors to tie the outer and inner leaves of a
wall together every 3 or 4 courses. What you are hoping to do is pull
the house together with steel jacks. I think it is impossible to rectify
the damage; the metal is to help stop it getting worse.

Exactly.



What sort of inane questions do you suppose belong on a group called UK
DIY? You have been told to seek professional help you retard, go and get
it.

Eh??

--
Grunff

On 6 Oct 2003 08:45:12 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

John Laird writes:

[15 lines snipped]

I think you ought to get a structural engineer to take a look (was anyone
other than a surveyor involved when you bought the place). You could start
off the whole process with a call to your insurers, but be warned that after
a claim you may be unable to ever change companies.

There's no "may" about it.

Well, if the dreaded "s" word is held to blame, you're probably right. (And
I ought to know as I'm in that situation.)

--
People must not do things for fun. We are not here for fun. There is no
reference to fun in any Act of Parliament.

Mail john rather than nospam...

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Michael Mcneil wrote:

Where are you living? Germany?

Devon.


it unlikely that your house would have been built without foundations
even in the financial straits of the time. I believe the building style
would have been to find a rock base to put the house on and to
incorporate a technique of some kind for limiting damp.

Not much of a rock bed, but a shallow loose stone foundation.


It is unusual for a 2 ft stone wall to have an internal and an external
skin.

And indeed it doesn't - just solid stone.


8 metres is not a gianormous edifice for a country house. Is it an
old semi derelict cottage you are rebuilding?

Yes - sort of.


Or is it a town house you
are struggling to hold together? Describe how the wall partitions have
separated, please.

Ok, the house has a square footprint. The only structural walls
are the 4 outer walls. But intenally, it's divided up using
block partition walls. The movement of the outer wall is
evidenced by cracks where the interior partition wall (p) meets
the outer walls.

In this diagram, the top wall (which represents the house's
south facing external wall) is no longer very flat - it's
slightly convex.

________________
| p |
| p |
| p |
|ppppppppppppppp|
| p |
| p |
________p_______|


This crack showed 1mm extra bowing in an outwardly mobile direction?

Yup.


This sounds suspiciously like the roof is pushing the house out.

You'd think that - but the greatest deflection of the outer wall
is not at roof level - it's at first floor floor level.


If I were you I should check what supporting walls have been removed and
whilst you are at it I would see how much the floor joists have got to
go before they come out the wall at the worst part.

No supporting walls have been removed. The joists have a good
few inches yet.


So what’s the problem? If you can afford it do it. If not, sell up.

I have no intention of selling up, and every intention of
implementing a fix. I just wanted the group's experiences.



I don’t know what I was thinking of in my previous posts. A '70's UK
cavity wall semi, built on a concrete pad with failed wall ties –
butterfly shaped wire connectors to tie the outer and inner leaves of a
wall together every 3 or 4 courses. What you are hoping to do is pull
the house together with steel jacks. I think it is impossible to rectify
the damage; the metal is to help stop it getting worse.

Exactly.



What sort of inane questions do you suppose belong on a group called UK
DIY? You have been told to seek professional help you retard, go and get
it.

Eh??

--
Grunff


ROFLMAO !!!!! Well, there you have it. Mr M,M, must be a structural
engineer by the way he's told you off. Or an arsehole who thinks he knows
everything. I know which I'm choosing. :-))

ROFLMAO !!!!!


---
www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 06/10/03

Andy Hall wrote:

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:24:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Grunff wrote:


snip

The blue line is our boundary, and the pink dot in the middle is the
house. We've no intention of moving, so we just have to figure out how
best to use what we have - whether it's rebuilding or fixing up the
existing house.


OOh. Can I come and shoot rabbits and fly model planes there please!



Try a more tempting offer such as taking a model /helicopter and
flying it upside down over Grunff's fields. He doesn't have one of
those sit-on mowers and might welcome the grass being cut. ;-)



If he waits till I am feeling less impoerished, he can have my old
westwood ride on. Needs a lot of tinkering as its had a hard life, but
it will do about two acres a day.



.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Grunff wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

OOh. Can I come and shoot rabbits and fly model planes there please!


Model planes - anytime. I do plenty of that.


Oh? Haven't seen you on uk.rec.models.radio-control.air?

As for rabbits, SWMBO would
have a blue fit. Very animal friendly, and very gun-unfriendly. Besides,
the cat eats most of them.



I'm animal friednly too. I *love* pigeons and rabbits. Stewed.

Gnube wrote:
not a lot

Grunff, if the wall is bowing out in the middle, then apart from simple
settlement etc, its likely that the weight of the roof is downwards
only. That is consistent with properly tied rafters and joists.

The Euler criteria for collapse has its first solution as the wall
bowing centrally. This worries me enough to be glad you have an engineer
on the case already.

If you are not familiar with dear old Euler, just get a playing card or
similar, and place it on edge and press down on the top. Then bend it
vertically and do the same. Euler did the math to show why in the first
case it buckles, and in the second case it doesn't.

One of the few things I can remember form structural engineering lectures.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message


Odd that Tamer Shafik and Grunff posted the same thing from the same
server in Berlin:

"Tamer Shafik" wrote in message


"Grunff" wrote in message


Grunff, if the wall is bowing out in the middle, then apart from simple
settlement etc, its likely that the weight of the roof is downwards
only. That is consistent with properly tied rafters and joists.

The Euler criteria for collapse has its first solution as the wall
bowing centrally.

One of the few things I can remember form structural engineering lectures.

Now we have settled that the roof is pushing the wall out and that it is
not a cavity wall. And apparently he has got an engineer on the job, can
we know why he hasn't been able to supply us with technical information?

Another question he might ask his expert is why floor joists are always
laid parallel to the rafters. I rather think that if he'd spent more
time attending his public library -or the one at his nearest Tech, than
attending to this thread he'd get as much information and know the
qualifications of the advisor.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Michael Mcneil wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message


Odd that Tamer Shafik and Grunff posted the same thing from the same
server in Berlin:

"Tamer Shafik" wrote in message


"Grunff" wrote in message



Looks like a mistake on the server side.



Grunff, if the wall is bowing out in the middle, then apart from simple
settlement etc, its likely that the weight of the roof is downwards
only. That is consistent with properly tied rafters and joists.

The Euler criteria for collapse has its first solution as the wall
bowing centrally.


One of the few things I can remember form structural engineering lectures.


Now we have settled that the roof is pushing the wall out and that it is
not a cavity wall. And apparently he has got an engineer on the job, can
we know why he hasn't been able to supply us with technical information?

Another question he might ask his expert is why floor joists are always
laid parallel to the rafters. I rather think that if he'd spent more
time attending his public library -or the one at his nearest Tech, than
attending to this thread he'd get as much information and know the
qualifications of the advisor.




what is your problem? apaqrt from uisng hotmail that is...

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 06:28:16 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
wrote:



Another question he might ask his expert is why floor joists are always
laid parallel to the rafters. I rather think that if he'd spent more
time attending his public library -or the one at his nearest Tech, than
attending to this thread he'd get as much information and know the
qualifications of the advisor.

Is it necessary to be quite so rude??



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Grunff, if the wall is bowing out in the middle, then apart from simple
settlement etc, its likely that the weight of the roof is downwards
only. That is consistent with properly tied rafters and joists.

The Euler criteria for collapse has its first solution as the wall
bowing centrally. This worries me enough to be glad you have an engineer
on the case already.

And I would be worried too - if it wasn't for the big stone
porch stuck to the side of it! The porch is about 2m wide, and
central to the wall.

I'll let you know what the structural engineer says (next week).

If you are not familiar with dear old Euler, just get a playing card or
similar, and place it on edge and press down on the top. Then bend it
vertically and do the same. Euler did the math to show why in the first
case it buckles, and in the second case it doesn't.

Vague memories...

--
Grunff

Michael Mcneil wrote:

Another question he might ask his expert is why floor joists are always
laid parallel to the rafters. I rather think that if he'd spent more
time attending his public library -or the one at his nearest Tech, than
attending to this thread he'd get as much information and know the
qualifications of the advisor.

I've said it before, and will probably say it again - Eh??

--
Grunff

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Oh? Haven't seen you on uk.rec.models.radio-control.air?

I'm not a serious flyer - just mess around with a variety of
cobbled together machines. I think I may have posted on there a
while back about ducted prop helis, something I'm still working on.

--
Grunff

In article lgate.org,
Michael Mcneil wrote:
What sort of inane questions do you suppose belong on a group called UK
DIY? You have been told to seek professional help you retard, go and get
it.

I'd love to show you the 'professional help' my architect got from a
structural engineer when my roof conversion was under way - it added
*thousands* to the cost. And a back of a fag packet calculation showed
much of it to be unnecessary. And proved so subsequently at law.

It would be an ideal world where simply employing a pro - even with
letters after his name - would guarantee a satisfactory result. Life isn't
like that, though, so getting advice here - and knowing how to act on it -
is not the act of a retard.

Seems to me you are typical of many - you love spending other's money.

--
*Never miss a good chance to shut up.*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article , Dave Plowman
writes
In article lgate.org,
Michael Mcneil wrote:
What sort of inane questions do you suppose belong on a group called UK
DIY? You have been told to seek professional help you retard, go and get
it.

I'd love to show you the 'professional help' my architect got from a
structural engineer when my roof conversion was under way - it added
*thousands* to the cost. And a back of a fag packet calculation showed
much of it to be unnecessary. And proved so subsequently at law.

It would be an ideal world where simply employing a pro - even with
letters after his name - would guarantee a satisfactory result. Life isn't
like that, though, so getting advice here - and knowing how to act on it -
is not the act of a retard.

Once you is a profeshunul you realise how many other profeshunulz are
very, er, average . . . . .

Just as many cowboys in the professions as there are in the trades . . .

But then in both cases you come upon the real gems (if you're lucky).
--
fred

fred wrote:

Once you is a profeshunul you realise how many other profeshunulz are
very, er, average . . . . .

Just as many cowboys in the professions as there are in the trades . . .

But then in both cases you come upon the real gems (if you're lucky).

Asbolutely. I don't have any problem at all with paying people
for their time - after all, people pay me for mine. But that
doesn't mean I don't want to understand what's going on.

I have several friends who just can't understand why it is that
I service/repair my own cars/washing machines/whatever. Doesn't
seem to matter how many times I say *it's my hobby, I enjoy it*.

--
Grunff

In article ,
fred wrote:
Once you is a profeshunul you realise how many other profeshunulz are
very, er, average . . . . .

Just as many cowboys in the professions as there are in the trades . . .

But then in both cases you come upon the real gems (if you're lucky).

Yup. I'm all in favour of using a pro for any job if needed, but blanket
statements like Mcneil's bring out the worst in me. Especially since
Grunff had already asked for advice on finding a good pro.

--
*This message has been ROT-13 encrypted twice for extra security *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article , Dave Plowman
writes
Yup. I'm all in favour of using a pro for any job if needed, but blanket
statements like Mcneil's bring out the worst in me. Especially since
Grunff had already asked for advice on finding a good pro.
Don't feed the Tro . . . . .
;-)
--
fred

In article ,
Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
fred wrote:
Once you is a profeshunul you realise how many other profeshunulz are
very, er, average . . . . .

Just as many cowboys in the professions as there are in the trades . . .

But then in both cases you come upon the real gems (if you're lucky).

Yup. I'm all in favour of using a pro for any job if needed, but blanket
statements like Mcneil's bring out the worst in me. Especially since
Grunff had already asked for advice on finding a good pro.

yes, and is very sensibly trying to put himself in a position where a
cowboy is less able to pull the wool over his eyes. Information is power.

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message


On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 06:28:16 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
wrote:


I rather think that if he'd spent more time attending his public
library -or the one at his nearest Tech, than attending to this
thread he'd get as much information and know the qualifications of
the advisor.

Is it necessary to be quite so rude??

Not really, the pratt is still shepherding the thread like a dolt. If he
is the same anal retentive that kept asking advice about electric saws
some months back, then I consider my reply quite restrained -albeit
unecessary as it will be not so much ignored as treated with abandon.

Nothing wrong with that perhaps. Be a shame to be stuck with him as a
customer though.

The prick just wants to write to the group never mind what is said. If
he wanted to know anything about such a specialised subject he would
have got hold of some books on it by now.





--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Michael Mcneil wrote:

Not really, the pratt is still shepherding the thread like a dolt. If he
is the same anal retentive that kept asking advice about electric saws
some months back, then I consider my reply quite restrained -albeit
unecessary as it will be not so much ignored as treated with abandon.

What the hell are you on about f#kwit?


The prick just wants to write to the group never mind what is said. If
he wanted to know anything about such a specialised subject he would
have got hold of some books on it by now.

Rich, very rich indeed!

--
Grunff

"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
news:4ba6c4f4381b049e1c5f76c77af5e955.45219@mygate .mailgate.org...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message


On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 06:28:16 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
wrote:


I rather think that if he'd spent more time attending his public
library -or the one at his nearest Tech, than attending to this
thread he'd get as much information and know the qualifications of
the advisor.

Is it necessary to be quite so rude??

Not really, the pratt is still shepherding the thread like a dolt. If he
is the same anal retentive that kept asking advice about electric saws
some months back, then I consider my reply quite restrained -albeit
unecessary as it will be not so much ignored as treated with abandon.

Nothing wrong with that perhaps. Be a shame to be stuck with him as a
customer though.

The prick just wants to write to the group never mind what is said. If
he wanted to know anything about such a specialised subject he would
have got hold of some books on it by now.



I think someone failed their exam in social studies. I think I've found a
candidate for my kill file. Yes !!! The they go. BYE BYE !!!!


---
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In article lgate.org,
Michael Mcneil wrote:
Not really, the pratt is still shepherding the thread like a dolt. If he
is the same anal retentive that kept asking advice about electric saws
some months back, then I consider my reply quite restrained -albeit
unecessary as it will be not so much ignored as treated with abandon.

What are you on? Whatever, I'd adjust the dose.

--
*I used up all my sick days so I called in dead

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 06:28:16 UTC, "Michael Mcneil"
wrote:

Another question he might ask his expert is why floor joists are always
laid parallel to the rafters.

Hmmmm.our house is due to fall down then. Half of the house has joists
going one way, and in the rest of the house they're at right angles.
Obviously a design fault 100 years ago when it was built...


--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325*4; PS/2s 9585, 8595, 9595*2, 8580*3,
P70...

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:50:28 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message


On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 06:28:16 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
wrote:


I rather think that if he'd spent more time attending his public
library -or the one at his nearest Tech, than attending to this
thread he'd get as much information and know the qualifications of
the advisor.

Is it necessary to be quite so rude??

Not really, the pratt is still shepherding the thread like a dolt. If he
is the same anal retentive that kept asking advice about electric saws
some months back, then I consider my reply quite restrained -albeit
unecessary as it will be not so much ignored as treated with abandon.

Hmmm......

I notice though, Michael, that you do not contribute very often to the
discussions in this NG which is probably fortunate as most of your
contributions follow this style.

Part of the value of UK.D-I-Y is that people can feel comfortable in
being able to raise issues and ask questions without the fear of being
put down even if the points are obvious to others.

We can't be experts in all areas - generally we can contribute
usefully in some but may need help in others. Therein lies the
value.



Nothing wrong with that perhaps. Be a shame to be stuck with him as a
customer though.

I wouldn't worry too much about that, Michael. It's fairly unlikely
that you would have or retain any customers for any length of time.




The prick just wants to write to the group never mind what is said. If
he wanted to know anything about such a specialised subject he would
have got hold of some books on it by now.

That might be true, although we have a whole range of people who are
well qualified on contribute on a spectrum of topics including this
one. It's entirely reasonable that somebody can give help in one area
and need help in another. This represents a source of information
that is as valuable as anything presented in a book.

In general, both newsgroup and literary sources are able to convey
information without the need to introduce put downs and rudeness to
emphasise a point.

One can only assume that since you find the need to do so, you have
little of value to contribute.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 06:28:16 UTC, "Michael Mcneil"
wrote:

Another question he might ask his expert is why floor joists are always
laid parallel to the rafters.

Hmmmm.our house is due to fall down then. Half of the house has joists
going one way, and in the rest of the house they're at right angles.
Obviously a design fault 100 years ago when it was built...


--
Bob Eager


Now it's got me worried too. The joists in this old (100+ years) are all
over the place. The builder has taken the shortest route between supporting
walls in most cases, so you can imagine, with at least eight internal
supporting structures, that none of the rooms have joists that run in same
direction.

Yes. Very worrying to find out that floor joists should run parallel with
the roofing rafters. :-))

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:26:11 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Hmmm......

Hear, hear. Well said. Wholly agree with everything you stated!

PoP