I need to repoint some old brickwork (circa 1920). What mortar mix
should I use? I have 'Googled' and find the advice there both
confusing at sometimes contradicatory. There seems to be 'ready' mix
mortar available (just add water) but some advise against shed bought
pointing mortar mixes.

A related question, has anyone any experience of pointing using a
'pointing gun'? From 'Google' they seem to be a very neat answer to
the job but I guess their usefulness can only be gauged by someone
without hours of experience and practice. I need it for a one off
job, about 30feet or so, 5ft high wall and at about £20.00 it may be
worthwhile provided they 'work'.

In article ,
Edward W. Thompson writes:
I need to repoint some old brickwork (circa 1920). What mortar mix
should I use? I have 'Googled' and find the advice there both

Depends on the bricks and the existing mortar used.
The mortar needs to be weaker than the bricks (or it will
damage them), and if the wall is built with lime mortar,
it needs to be able to cope with movement of the wall.
You haven't given enough info.

confusing at sometimes contradicatory. There seems to be 'ready' mix
mortar available (just add water) but some advise against shed bought
pointing mortar mixes.

It is unlikely that's suitable for repointing a 1920's wall.
It's likely to be too strong and rigid.

A related question, has anyone any experience of pointing using a
'pointing gun'? From 'Google' they seem to be a very neat answer to
the job but I guess their usefulness can only be gauged by someone
without hours of experience and practice. I need it for a one off
job, about 30feet or so, 5ft high wall and at about £20.00 it may be
worthwhile provided they 'work'.

I would suggest you find out how to do it properly, and start
with an area which doesn't show, not the front wall of your
house.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Edward W. Thompson wrote:
I need to repoint some old brickwork (circa 1920). What mortar mix
should I use? I have 'Googled' and find the advice there both
confusing at sometimes contradicatory. There seems to be 'ready' mix
mortar available (just add water) but some advise against shed bought
pointing mortar mixes.

A related question, has anyone any experience of pointing using a
'pointing gun'? From 'Google' they seem to be a very neat answer to
the job but I guess their usefulness can only be gauged by someone
without hours of experience and practice. I need it for a one off
job, about 30feet or so, 5ft high wall and at about £20.00 it may be
worthwhile provided they 'work'.

IME they don't work at all with mortar.

On Mar 28, 11:27*am, Stuart Noble
wrote:
Edward W. Thompson wrote:
I need to repoint some old brickwork (circa 1920). * What mortar mix
should I use? *I have 'Googled' and find the advice there both
confusing at sometimes contradicatory. There seems to be 'ready' mix
mortar available (just add water) but some advise against shed bought
pointing mortar mixes.

A related question, has anyone any experience of pointing using a
'pointing gun'? *From 'Google' they seem to be a very neat answer to
the job but I guess their usefulness can only be gauged by someone
without hours of experience and practice. *I need it for a one off
job, about 30feet or so, 5ft high wall and at about £20.00 it may be
worthwhile provided they 'work'.

IME they don't work at all with mortar.

I once repointed outhouse, at back of my 1925 house, but it was not
on view really. Raked out joints to about an inch, used weak mix,
no lime. More difficult than it looks! If this wall is highly
visible, I reckon best to seek out a local builder who does work on
older houses. Most local councils coservation sections know of such,
for work on listed buildings, maybe worth a call.

Edward W. Thompson wrote:
I need to repoint some old brickwork (circa 1920). What mortar mix
should I use? I have 'Googled' and find the advice there both
confusing at sometimes contradicatory. There seems to be 'ready' mix
mortar available (just add water) but some advise against shed bought
pointing mortar mixes.

A related question, has anyone any experience of pointing using a
'pointing gun'? From 'Google' they seem to be a very neat answer to
the job but I guess their usefulness can only be gauged by someone
without hours of experience and practice. I need it for a one off
job, about 30feet or so, 5ft high wall and at about £20.00 it may be
worthwhile provided they 'work'.

If you've never done re-pointing before, I wouldn't contemplate using one of
these applicators.
And definately *NOT* ready mixed mortar - it's far too sharp and far too
strong for pointing.
You need red building sand, mixed at 4 or 5 to 1 with ordinary portland
cement (use a measure so that the same ratios are used every day until it's
finished - it can be anything - a plantpot or an old cup etc)

Start at the right hand side of the wall and work to your left, that is, so
that you are dragging the pointing trowel from left to right when smoothing
off the courses - this gives you something to work to - if you do it the
other way, you are dragging it towards an empty joint.

Do a 3ft wide patch at a time and do all the down joints first, then the
cross joints.

If the wall has been whizzed out with a grinder or it's in poor condition,
you may need to wet it down before you start - use a watering can and pour
water down the wall which will remove dust and also give the mortar a better
bond, don't worry about wetting it too much - it dries out within minutes.

Phil L wrote:

Start at the right hand side of the wall and work to your left, that is, so
that you are dragging the pointing trowel from left to right when smoothing
off the courses - this gives you something to work to - if you do it the
other way, you are dragging it towards an empty joint.

Good advice

Do a 3ft wide patch at a time and do all the down joints first, then the
cross joints.

Have you found a way to do the down joints easily? No problem tucking
the horizontals in off a mortar board or whatever, but those verticals I
find frustrating

Stuart Noble wrote:
Phil L wrote:

Start at the right hand side of the wall and work to your left, that
is, so that you are dragging the pointing trowel from left to right
when smoothing off the courses - this gives you something to work to
- if you do it the other way, you are dragging it towards an empty
joint.

Good advice

Do a 3ft wide patch at a time and do all the down joints first, then
the cross joints.

Have you found a way to do the down joints easily? No problem tucking
the horizontals in off a mortar board or whatever, but those
verticals I find frustrating

You should be able to slice off a suitable sized piece of mortar and hold it
vertically on the trowel without it falling off, if you can't then the
mixture is wrong.
Soft sand.
Little water.
Plenty of fairy liquid - at least a teaspoonful for every Kg of mixture, it
should end up like soft clay....the fairy gives it adhesion qualities

Phil L wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
Phil L wrote:

Start at the right hand side of the wall and work to your left, that
is, so that you are dragging the pointing trowel from left to right
when smoothing off the courses - this gives you something to work to
- if you do it the other way, you are dragging it towards an empty
joint.
Good advice
Do a 3ft wide patch at a time and do all the down joints first, then
the cross joints.
Have you found a way to do the down joints easily? No problem tucking
the horizontals in off a mortar board or whatever, but those
verticals I find frustrating

You should be able to slice off a suitable sized piece of mortar and hold it
vertically on the trowel without it falling off, if you can't then the
mixture is wrong.
Soft sand.
Little water.
Plenty of fairy liquid - at least a teaspoonful for every Kg of mixture, it
should end up like soft clay....the fairy gives it adhesion qualities



Cheers. I'll pay more attention to texture in future

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:20:09 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:

Phil L wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
Phil L wrote:

Start at the right hand side of the wall and work to your left, that
is, so that you are dragging the pointing trowel from left to right
when smoothing off the courses - this gives you something to work to
- if you do it the other way, you are dragging it towards an empty
joint.
Good advice
Do a 3ft wide patch at a time and do all the down joints first, then
the cross joints.
Have you found a way to do the down joints easily? No problem tucking
the horizontals in off a mortar board or whatever, but those
verticals I find frustrating

You should be able to slice off a suitable sized piece of mortar and hold it
vertically on the trowel without it falling off, if you can't then the
mixture is wrong.
Soft sand.
Little water.
Plenty of fairy liquid - at least a teaspoonful for every Kg of mixture, it
should end up like soft clay....the fairy gives it adhesion qualities



Cheers. I'll pay more attention to texture in future

If you were using lime mortar you wouldnt hve to mess about with fairy
liquid ...

Ducks

Anna

--

~ ~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repair and conservation
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|_____|/ www.kettlenet.co.uk

On 28 Mar 2008 08:31:48 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Edward W. Thompson writes:
I need to repoint some old brickwork (circa 1920). What mortar mix
should I use? I have 'Googled' and find the advice there both

Depends on the bricks and the existing mortar used.
The mortar needs to be weaker than the bricks (or it will
damage them), and if the wall is built with lime mortar,
it needs to be able to cope with movement of the wall.
You haven't given enough info.

How do I tell whether the bricks are 'hard' oir 'soft'? It appears to
me that the bricks are 'soft'. Incidentally the project is a garden
wall, not the house. It is my 'inclination' to use lime mortar. I
would think that would be suitable regardless of brick 'type' (am I
wrong here?). After all lime mortar use to be used on stone built
structures and you can't get bricks much harder than that..

confusing at sometimes contradicatory. There seems to be 'ready' mix
mortar available (just add water) but some advise against shed bought
pointing mortar mixes.

It is unlikely that's suitable for repointing a 1920's wall.
It's likely to be too strong and rigid.

That's exactly what I thought.

A related question, has anyone any experience of pointing using a
'pointing gun'? From 'Google' they seem to be a very neat answer to
the job but I guess their usefulness can only be gauged by someone
without hours of experience and practice. I need it for a one off
job, about 30feet or so, 5ft high wall and at about £20.00 it may be
worthwhile provided they 'work'.

I would suggest you find out how to do it properly, and start
with an area which doesn't show, not the front wall of your
house.

I have done pointing before, whether it was done 'properly or not is
debatable :-)! My primary question, that no one yet seems to have
answered, is what mortar mix should I use? I suppose 'Google' will
give me that info if I opt to use a lime mortar. Is there any reason
not to use lime mortar?

I don't really understand comments made with respect to 'pointing'
guns. Having viewed videos from 'Google', they really do look to make
the job much 'easier' but clearly the consistency of the mortar mix is
all important so it extrudes from the 'gun' smoothly. In this respect
I would have thought a 'plasticiser' would help but many seem to warn
not to use plasticisers, why?

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:14:03 +0000, Edward W. Thompson
wrote:

I have done pointing before, whether it was done 'properly or not is
debatable :-)!

Dont do it until the risk of frost is past.

Rake out the joints well, damp down and pack with the lime mortar,
trying to keep it off the face of the bricks. Protect with hessian
sheeting or similar. Leave until there is some resistance to your
pointing tool (24hrs or so), then go back and consolidate. Aim to get
the pointing more or less level with the surface of the bricks dont do
raised or struck pointing or such frippery. Protect and leave again.
When the mortar is firm to touch then bang it with the bristles of a
stiff brush. Protect a few days longer

Thats off the top of my head so I may have missed something out

My primary question, that no one yet seems to have
answered, is what mortar mix should I use?

I'd go for
3:1 soft sand:hydraulic lime (NHL3.5 or NHL 5 depending on risk of /
concern about frost damage)

Anna
--

~ ~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repair and conservation
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|_____|/ www.kettlenet.co.uk

Anna Kettle says...
My primary question, that no one yet seems to have
answered, is what mortar mix should I use?

I'd go for
3:1 soft sand:hydraulic lime (NHL3.5 or NHL 5 depending on risk of /
concern about frost damage)

Anna


I'd add some cement dye too if you need to match the colour
of the existing mortar. Lime mortar is almost white
otherwise.
--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:14:03 +0000, Edward W. Thompson
wrote:

On 28 Mar 2008 08:31:48 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Edward W. Thompson writes:
I need to repoint some old brickwork (circa 1920). What mortar mix
should I use? I have 'Googled' and find the advice there both

Depends on the bricks and the existing mortar used.
The mortar needs to be weaker than the bricks (or it will
damage them), and if the wall is built with lime mortar,
it needs to be able to cope with movement of the wall.
You haven't given enough info.

How do I tell whether the bricks are 'hard' oir 'soft'?

Do the arrises tend to rub away (soft) or chip off (hard)

Anna
--

~ ~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repair and conservation
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|_____|/ www.kettlenet.co.uk

In article ,
(Anna Kettle) writes:

If you were using lime mortar you wouldnt hve to mess about with fairy
liquid ...

I wouldn't use fairy liquid anyway. It's packed with soluable salts
to thicken it which you don't want left in the wall. Buy a bottle
of proper plasticiser, or use cement with plasticiser included (which
half the bagged cement sold has anyway, if you check the packet).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Anna Kettle wrote:
On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:14:03 +0000, Edward W. Thompson
wrote:

I have done pointing before, whether it was done 'properly or not is
debatable :-)!

Dont do it until the risk of frost is past.

Rake out the joints well, damp down and pack with the lime mortar,
trying to keep it off the face of the bricks. Protect with hessian
sheeting or similar. Leave until there is some resistance to your
pointing tool (24hrs or so), then go back and consolidate. Aim to get
the pointing more or less level with the surface of the bricks dont do
raised or struck pointing or such frippery. Protect and leave again.
When the mortar is firm to touch then bang it with the bristles of a
stiff brush. Protect a few days longer

Thats off the top of my head so I may have missed something out

My primary question, that no one yet seems to have
answered, is what mortar mix should I use?

I'd go for
3:1 soft sand:hydraulic lime (NHL3.5 or NHL 5 depending on risk of /
concern about frost damage)

Anna

You say don't mess around with Fairy Liquid. Then you go on about having
to protect the pointing with hessian for a few days. Now I call that
"messing around".
One of these days someone is going to explain the real world difference
between hydraulic lime and a weak soft sand cement mortar. I suspect
it's mostly cosmetic

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:39:52 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:

Anna Kettle wrote:
On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:14:03 +0000, Edward W. Thompson
wrote:

I have done pointing before, whether it was done 'properly or not is
debatable :-)!

Dont do it until the risk of frost is past.

Rake out the joints well, damp down and pack with the lime mortar,
trying to keep it off the face of the bricks. Protect with hessian
sheeting or similar. Leave until there is some resistance to your
pointing tool (24hrs or so), then go back and consolidate. Aim to get
the pointing more or less level with the surface of the bricks dont do
raised or struck pointing or such frippery. Protect and leave again.
When the mortar is firm to touch then bang it with the bristles of a
stiff brush. Protect a few days longer

Thats off the top of my head so I may have missed something out

My primary question, that no one yet seems to have
answered, is what mortar mix should I use?

I'd go for
3:1 soft sand:hydraulic lime (NHL3.5 or NHL 5 depending on risk of /
concern about frost damage)

Anna

You say don't mess around with Fairy Liquid. Then you go on about having
to protect the pointing with hessian for a few days. Now I call that
"messing around".
One of these days someone is going to explain the real world difference
between hydraulic lime and a weak soft sand cement mortar. I suspect
it's mostly cosmetic

I'm not the expert but I can point you in the direction of the
definitive answer:

Hydraulic Lime Mortar published by Donhead Publishing

Cement is heated to a higher temperature than is hydraulic lime which
must affect the chemistry somewhat
but you are right that strong hydraulic lime and weak cement are on
the same scale. I have seen a scale of hydraulicity which from memory
was something like

0 - Putty lime
3.5 - Natural hydraulic lime NHL3.5
5 - Natural hydraulic lime NHL5
8 - Early cement (it was invented in 1820)
20 - Modern cement

But there are all compared using a standard amount of aggregate.

A weak mix of concrete ie lots of aggregate and little cement doesnt
fit on that scale so I dont have a comment there. Maybe the book does
- its the report of a lot of research done for British Standards or EU
standards or suchlike

Anna

Anna

--

~ ~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repair and conservation
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|_____|/ www.kettlenet.co.uk

Edward W. Thompson wrote:

A related question, has anyone any experience of pointing using a
'pointing gun'?

Yes, I have a huge amount of pointing to do on a wall built of rubble,
stone, brick and tile fragments. It's near impossible to point in a
reasonable period of time because of the complexity of the joints. I
bought a gun last year and have been working away bit by bit doing about
a square metre at a time.

The builder sneers at me and makes comments about "amateurs" but I'm
working faster than he does and making a better job of it. You still
need a pointing trowel, a frenchman for finishing the joint and I find a
number of window and margin trowels useful because of the varying widths
of joints.

http://www.tooled-up.com/MicroCatego...=176&MCID=1736

It helps a lot if you can get two guns and also if you can have someone
to mix the mortar and fill the guns. Scaffolding or a platform also
helps.

On 28 Mar, 06:59, Edward W. Thompson
wrote:
I need to repoint some old brickwork (circa 1920). * What mortar mix
should I use? *I have 'Googled' and find the advice there both
confusing at sometimes contradicatory. There seems to be 'ready' mix
mortar available (just add water) but some advise against shed bought
pointing mortar mixes.

A related question, has anyone any experience of pointing using a
'pointing gun'? *From 'Google' they seem to be a very neat answer to
the job but I guess their usefulness can only be gauged by someone
without hours of experience and practice. *I need it for a one off
job, about 30feet or so, 5ft high wall and at about £20.00 it may be
worthwhile provided they 'work'.

Dear Edward
Read "Mortars, Plasters and Renders in Conservation" by J Ashurst
(obtainable from the SPAB)
All will be revealed
On a quick skim of the other posts I agree entirely with Anna
I would never use a gun to apply as to get it filled and working
requires an in appropriate mix in the first place
Basics are to
1) find out if it is a lime or cement based mortar in the first place
2) make up a similar mortar
3) rake out well and point only arris to arris at the horizontal part
(ie JUST the bed depth if there is any wear on the arris)
Chris