I have a generator I want to install in a semi-permanent postion, ie. to
avoid trailing a cable throught a window or summat, I want to have a
dedicated (maybe different coloured?) socket for it in the lounge that I can
connect to the generator on the outside.
On the ouside wall, I envisage something like this:
http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/products...6&rangeid=1008
thought, preferably, a less expensive version - is there one?

Also, I'd like to box the generator in, in order to sound-proof it as much
as possible. Obviously it will still need to 'breathe'.

Presumably, the dreaded Part-P comes into effect here, but other than that,
any ideas on this?

Thanks,
Neil

Neil wrote:
I have a generator I want to install in a semi-permanent postion, ie. to
avoid trailing a cable throught a window or summat, I want to have a
dedicated (maybe different coloured?) socket for it in the lounge that I can
connect to the generator on the outside.
On the ouside wall, I envisage something like this:
http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/products...6&rangeid=1008
thought, preferably, a less expensive version - is there one?


Unless you have a large generator, you could use a 16A or 32A version of
the above 63A inlet and save yourself megabucks.


You'll pay silly money for a 63A inlet wherever you buy it, unless you
can get one off eBay.

You could try Essential Supplies: http://preview.tinyurl.com/yrsdas
£38+VAT, but provide your own box.

or you could ring either KES Power or SES for a price on a PCE 533-6

http://www.pcelectric.at/product.aspx?cat=1&id=541

http://kes.co.uk/directory.html Call Southampton branch.

http://www.site-electrics.co.uk/

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil wrote:

I have a generator I want to install in a semi-permanent postion, ie.
to avoid trailing a cable throught a window or summat, I want to have
a dedicated (maybe different coloured?) socket for it in the lounge
that I can connect to the generator on the outside.
On the ouside wall, I envisage something like this:
http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/products...6&rangeid=1008
thought, preferably, a less expensive version - is there one?

Also, I'd like to box the generator in, in order to sound-proof it as
much as possible. Obviously it will still need to 'breathe'.

Presumably, the dreaded Part-P comes into effect here, but other than
that, any ideas on this?

Thanks,
Neil

What's the generator for - presumably for emergency power in a power cut?

By far the safest way is to do what you appear to be doing - to have a
dedicated outlet and to unplug appliances from the mains and plug them into
that when necessary. If you envisage wiring it into the consumer unit, with
some sort of change-over switch, it gets a lot more complicated - and
expensive.

I don't know for sure whether Part P applies to what you're doing - but who
cares?!

What sort of generator is it - Diesel, petrol, 2-stroke, 4-stroke - and
what's its capacity? You will need to provide your own earth, using an earth
spike. If you're planning to run any sensitive electronic equipment off it
you need to make sure that it provides a decent waveform and has good
voltage control. If you're planning to run a central heating boiler with
electronic ignition, you'll probably need to make sure that neutral is tied
to earth rather than floating.

The sort of external connector you suggest is also used on caravans. You may
get one (and a mating in-line socket) cheaper from a caravan dealer. Or, if
you're building a waterproof enclosure for the generator, why not just have
a cable coming through the wall with a 13A plug (or whatever) on the end, to
plug into the genny?
--
Cheers,
Roger
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"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil wrote:

I have a generator I want to install in a semi-permanent postion, ie.
to avoid trailing a cable throught a window or summat, I want to have
a dedicated (maybe different coloured?) socket for it in the lounge
that I can connect to the generator on the outside.
On the ouside wall, I envisage something like this:
http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/products...6&rangeid=1008
thought, preferably, a less expensive version - is there one?

Also, I'd like to box the generator in, in order to sound-proof it as
much as possible. Obviously it will still need to 'breathe'.

What's the generator for - presumably for emergency power in a power cut?

By far the safest way is to do what you appear to be doing - to have a
dedicated outlet and to unplug appliances from the mains and plug them
into that when necessary. If you envisage wiring it into the consumer
unit, with some sort of change-over switch, it gets a lot more
complicated - and expensive.

I don't know for sure whether Part P applies to what you're doing - but
who cares?!

What sort of generator is it - Diesel, petrol, 2-stroke, 4-stroke - and
what's its capacity? You will need to provide your own earth, using an
earth spike. If you're planning to run any sensitive electronic equipment
off it you need to make sure that it provides a decent waveform and has
good voltage control. If you're planning to run a central heating boiler
with electronic ignition, you'll probably need to make sure that neutral
is tied to earth rather than floating.

The sort of external connector you suggest is also used on caravans. You
may get one (and a mating in-line socket) cheaper from a caravan dealer.
Or, if you're building a waterproof enclosure for the generator, why not
just have a cable coming through the wall with a 13A plug (or whatever) on
the end, to plug into the genny?


Thanks.
It's a 4-stroke petrol, only 900W - I wasn't planning on running anything
special off it, just a light, the fan for the gas fire's flue and... would
the TV run off it?
And yes thanks, a bit of googling has revealed caravan connectors. They are
a much more reasonable price.

I was wondering about earthing. Is there anything special about and earth
spike, or will any old metal rod in the ground do?

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil wrote:


Thanks.
It's a 4-stroke petrol, only 900W - I wasn't planning on running
anything special off it, just a light, the fan for the gas fire's
flue and... would the TV run off it?

Depends on the telly - how much power it takes, and whether it has a much
larger surge current when you first turn it on.

And yes thanks, a bit of googling has revealed caravan connectors.
They are a much more reasonable price.

They are, of course, lower capacity than the one you cited - but perfectly
adequate.

I was wondering about earthing. Is there anything special about and
earth spike, or will any old metal rod in the ground do?

I use one of these:
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/13335/...hing/Earth-Rod

It needs to go a fair way into the ground. There *are* ways of measuring the
impedance of an earth connection - but they're beyond the average DIY-er, so
stick one of these into moist soil, and hope for the best!
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Roger Mills wrote:

I was wondering about earthing. Is there anything special about and
earth spike, or will any old metal rod in the ground do?

I use one of these:
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/13335/...hing/Earth-Rod

It needs to go a fair way into the ground. There *are* ways of measuring the
impedance of an earth connection - but they're beyond the average DIY-er, so
stick one of these into moist soil, and hope for the best!

Not actually that difficult with relatively modest test equipment and a
bit of experimentation:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...st_tes t_gear

To be fair however, if you have a RCD in the supply, it would have to
be a particularly poor earth to leave you unprotected.

--
Cheers,

John.

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Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil wrote:

Thanks.
It's a 4-stroke petrol, only 900W - I wasn't planning on running
anything special off it, just a light, the fan for the gas fire's
flue and... would the TV run off it?

yes, but...
1. old TVs with unregulated power rails (early 80s and before
very roughly) are vulnerable to voltage swings, and using them on a
gen is a bit of a gamble.
2. A surge protector is wise when using electronics on a portable
gen, as load dump produces inductive surges, and electronic kit can
really object.


Depends on the telly - how much power it takes, and whether it has a much
larger surge current when you first turn it on.

I don't think I've ever seen a TV that even approaches 900w
continuous, so I'd be very surprised if that were a problem.
Re start current, CRT sets do run a gulp of current thru the
degauss coils for a second or so, but even if beyond the gen's
rating it would be very unlikely to stall it that quickly. So there
shouldnt be a problem there either.


I was wondering about earthing. Is there anything special about and
earth spike, or will any old metal rod in the ground do?

portable gens are usually run IT, with no earth. An earth rod would
improve safety, but is not a requirement.


NT

wrote:

portable gens are usually run IT, with no earth. An earth rod would
improve safety, but is not a requirement.

This is acceptable only where the genny is used to used to run a single
load on a temporary basis. For anything else, proper earthing is necessary.

For a permanent standby installation you need to earth one side of the
generator's output to define neutral point and create a TN-S system.

See
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....2?dmode=source

for a previous post of mine on the subject, including a wiring diagram.

You are also supposed to consult your supplier and/or the local DNO if
you intend to install standby generation. They like to approve the
connection arrangements and aren't at all keen on people back-feeding
the mains.

--
Andy

Neil wrote:

any ideas on this?

It would be better to have a break-before-make changeover switch fitted
with an external weatherproof plug mounted to a wall in a convenient
location so that you can power the consumer unit from the generator.

Definitely needs Part P and probably an electrician.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Steve Firth wrote:

Neil wrote:

any ideas on this?

It would be better to have a break-before-make changeover switch
fitted with an external weatherproof plug mounted to a wall in a
convenient location so that you can power the consumer unit from the
generator.


Surely that depends on the capacity of the generator? Unless it can power
the whole house, it's best just to plug selected critical items (CH boiler,
freezer, emergency lighting, TV?, etc.) into it.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
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PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...


It would be better to have a break-before-make changeover switch
fitted with an external weatherproof plug mounted to a wall in a
convenient location so that you can power the consumer unit from the
generator.


Surely that depends on the capacity of the generator? Unless it can power
the whole house, it's best just to plug selected critical items (CH
boiler, freezer, emergency lighting, TV?, etc.) into it.

Yes, that's exactly the plan.

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Steve Firth wrote:

Neil wrote:

any ideas on this?
It would be better to have a break-before-make changeover switch
fitted with an external weatherproof plug mounted to a wall in a
convenient location so that you can power the consumer unit from the
generator.


Surely that depends on the capacity of the generator? Unless it can power
the whole house, it's best just to plug selected critical items (CH boiler,
freezer, emergency lighting, TV?, etc.) into it.

It also opens a new can of worms with earthing. If the house is already
TT is is relatively straight forward, however with a TN setup you are
going to need a relatively elaborate switching setup to introduce the
required levels of RCD protection and to switch to a local earth as well.

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

It also opens a new can of worms with earthing. If the house is already TT
is is relatively straight forward, however with a TN setup you are going
to need a relatively elaborate switching setup to introduce the required
levels of RCD protection and to switch to a local earth as well.


Just thinking aloud....


I'm out-of-my-depth here, but when there is a E provided by the supplier, is
there any reason why we can't continue to use the existing mains supply
earth ( even though we've switched over the L+N conductors ) in the event of
a power failure?

Then at the generator, we have the N tied to the frame, and then we run 3
cores to the house, L, N, and a E from the frame-N bonding point to the
house main earth point, so the generator's earth is the same as the supply
earth ( give or take voltage drops along the generator cable ).

In otherwords, export the supplier / house E to the generator.

Or can we not assume supplier E integrity in the event of failure? ( like a
JCB went through the cable ouside the house... )

--
Ron

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Ron Lowe ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote:


Or can we not assume supplier E integrity in the event of failure? (
like a JCB went through the cable ouside the house... )

That's precisely it!
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Ron Lowe wrote:

I'm out-of-my-depth here, but when there is a E provided by the
supplier, is there any reason why we can't continue to use the existing
mains supply earth ( even though we've switched over the L+N conductors
) in the event of a power failure?

Yes, that is expressly forbidden. Mainly because you have no guarantee
that the earth will remain working during a failure.

Then at the generator, we have the N tied to the frame, and then we run
3 cores to the house, L, N, and a E from the frame-N bonding point to
the house main earth point, so the generator's earth is the same as the
supply earth ( give or take voltage drops along the generator cable ).

In otherwords, export the supplier / house E to the generator.

Or can we not assume supplier E integrity in the event of failure? (
like a JCB went through the cable ouside the house... )

That would be one example - if you think of some of the many reasons
that you may lose power (broken cable, overhead line down etc) then the
thinking behind this should be apparent. Also note that in the case of
modern style PME installations the earth integrity depends on a combined
neutral and earth conductor that comes right to the house before
separating.

Hence for the generator you need it as you described but with the
addition of a local earth rod. You would also need TT style RCD
protection (i.e. on all circuits - not just sockets) since the earth
fault impedance will probably be too high to allow normal operation of
circuit breakers under fault conditions.

--
Cheers,

John.

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Roger Mills wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Steve Firth wrote:

Neil wrote:

any ideas on this?

It would be better to have a break-before-make changeover switch
fitted with an external weatherproof plug mounted to a wall in a
convenient location so that you can power the consumer unit from the
generator.


Surely that depends on the capacity of the generator? Unless it can power
the whole house, it's best just to plug selected critical items (CH boiler,
freezer, emergency lighting, TV?, etc.) into it.

Umm well, a sensible person would switch off the unnecessary equipment.
Plugging a CH boiler into a generator is non-trivial given how most
installations are performed. Having power via the CU is easier.

Besides what sort of lame generator are we talking about here, a 650W
"suitcase"?

A 5-6kW generator which should be all anyone needs for a domestic
emergency supply will hardly break the bank.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Steve Firth wrote:


Umm well, a sensible person would switch off the unnecessary
equipment. Plugging a CH boiler into a generator is non-trivial given
how most installations are performed. Having power via the CU is
easier.


It has to be planned for - obviously. I've rewired my CH so that it's
powered from a 13A plug near the boiler , rather than from an FCU.

Besides what sort of lame generator are we talking about here, a 650W
"suitcase"?

The OP apparently has a 950w generator - which *certainly* wouldn't power
the whole house without *serious* risk of overload. I have a 2kW Honda
inverter-based jobby - which is adequate for all the essential things - but
I still wouldn't wire it into the consumer unit.

A 5-6kW generator which should be all anyone needs for a domestic
emergency supply will hardly break the bank.

The total project cost would not be trivial by the time you've got the
necessary change-over gear and suitable earth provision.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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