I was thinking it might it be a good idea to buy a generator, to power
my CH, freezer, fridge/freezer (one of those American ones) in the
event of a power cut. What out put do you think I might need? I see
Wolf's basic one is 230V output, 720 watts (max), 650 watts. Is that
the sort of thing? They are advertising it for under £50.
Thanks for any help you can give!

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mikeyboy wrote:

I was thinking it might it be a good idea to buy a generator, to power
my CH, freezer, fridge/freezer (one of those American ones) in the
event of a power cut. What out put do you think I might need? I see
Wolf's basic one is 230V output, 720 watts (max), 650 watts. Is that
the sort of thing? They are advertising it for under £50.
Thanks for any help you can give!

Cheap generators are usually cheap because they're nasty - noisy 2-stroke
engines, poor output voltage stability and God knows what sort of waveform,
but unlikely to be a clean sine wave.

Some boilers are quite fussy about the quality of the 'mains' to which they
are connected, and may not work properly - if at all - with this type of
generator.

You need to spend a lot more than 50 quid to get something half-way decent.
Have a look at the Honda inverter-based generators. These are a lot more
expensive, but have quiet 4-stroke engines and excellent voltage and
waveform stability. Bearing in mind that freezers etc. may require start-up
currents way in excess of the steady running level, you need a generator
which can cope with that. I have personally opted for a 2kW model (which I
bought 2 or 3 years ago as an insurance against power cuts, but haven't yet
had to use in anger!)

How are you planning to connect your CH system to a genny? Under no
circumstances must you allow genny output to get into the external mains.
The best bet is to power the CH via a 13A plug (rather than an FCU) - then
you can unplug it from the mains and plug it into the genny instead. You
also need to give some thought to earthing, and to whether the genny's
neutral connection needs to be tied down rather than being allowed to float.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

In message , Roger Mills
writes
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mikeyboy wrote:

I was thinking it might it be a good idea to buy a generator, to power
my CH, freezer, fridge/freezer (one of those American ones) in the
event of a power cut. What out put do you think I might need? I see
Wolf's basic one is 230V output, 720 watts (max), 650 watts. Is that
the sort of thing? They are advertising it for under £50.
Thanks for any help you can give!

Cheap generators are usually cheap because they're nasty - noisy 2-stroke
engines, poor output voltage stability and God knows what sort of waveform,
but unlikely to be a clean sine wave.

Some boilers are quite fussy about the quality of the 'mains' to which they
are connected, and may not work properly - if at all - with this type of
generator.

You need to spend a lot more than 50 quid to get something half-way decent.
Have a look at the Honda inverter-based generators. These are a lot more
expensive, but have quiet 4-stroke engines and excellent voltage and
waveform stability. Bearing in mind that freezers etc. may require start-up
currents way in excess of the steady running level, you need a generator
which can cope with that. I have personally opted for a 2kW model (which I
bought 2 or 3 years ago as an insurance against power cuts, but haven't yet
had to use in anger!)

How are you planning to connect your CH system to a genny? Under no
circumstances must you allow genny output to get into the external mains.
The best bet is to power the CH via a 13A plug (rather than an FCU) - then
you can unplug it from the mains and plug it into the genny instead. You
also need to give some thought to earthing, and to whether the genny's
neutral connection needs to be tied down rather than being allowed to float.

Without correct earthing arrangements a boiler is unlikely to flame
sense properly and so it'll never light


--
geoff

Mikeyboy wrote:
I was thinking it might it be a good idea to buy a generator, to power
my CH, freezer, fridge/freezer (one of those American ones) in the
event of a power cut. What out put do you think I might need? I see
Wolf's basic one is 230V output, 720 watts (max), 650 watts. Is that
the sort of thing? They are advertising it for under £50.
Thanks for any help you can give!

It works here, for all of the above - not all at the same time, but that
wouldn't be necessary.

The most difficult one is likely to be starting the motor in the
fridge/freezer, and the startup demand will vary from one model to the
next. Ours makes the generator thump for a few moments, but the
generator always wins.

Between power cuts, it will also run an electric drill or an angle
grinder out in the field.


--
Ian White

On 9 Dec, 19:23, geoff wrote:
In message , Roger Mills
writes





In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mikeyboy wrote:

I was thinking it might it be a good idea to buy a generator, to power
my CH, freezer, fridge/freezer (one of those American ones) in the
event of a power cut. What out put do you think I might need? I see
Wolf's basic one is 230V output, 720 watts (max), 650 watts. Is that
the sort of thing? They are advertising it for under £50.
Thanks for any help you can give!

Cheap generators are usually cheap because they're nasty - noisy 2-stroke
engines, poor output voltage stability and God knows what sort of waveform,
but unlikely to be a clean sine wave.

Some boilers are quite fussy about the quality of the 'mains' to which they
are connected, and may not work properly - if at all - with this type of
generator.

You need to spend a lot more than 50 quid to get something half-way decent.

In message
,
Mikeyboy writes
On 9 Dec, 19:23, geoff wrote:
In message , Roger Mills
writes





In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mikeyboy wrote:

I was thinking it might it be a good idea to buy a generator, to power
my CH, freezer, fridge/freezer (one of those American ones) in the
event of a power cut. What out put do you think I might need? I see
Wolf's basic one is 230V output, 720 watts (max), 650 watts. Is that
the sort of thing? They are advertising it for under £50.
Thanks for any help you can give!

Cheap generators are usually cheap because they're nasty - noisy 2-stroke
engines, poor output voltage stability and God knows what sort of waveform,
but unlikely to be a clean sine wave.

Some boilers are quite fussy about the quality of the 'mains' to which they
are connected, and may not work properly - if at all - with this type of
generator.

You need to spend a lot more than 50 quid to get something half-way decent.
Have a look at the Honda inverter-based generators. These are a lot more
expensive, but have quiet 4-stroke engines and excellent voltage and
waveform stability. Bearing in mind that freezers etc. may require start-up
currents way in excess of the steady running level, you need a generator
which can cope with that. I have personally opted for a 2kW model (which I
bought 2 or 3 years ago as an insurance against power cuts, but haven't yet
had to use in anger!)

How are you planning to connect your CH system to a genny? Under no
circumstances must you allow genny output to get into the external mains.
The best bet is to power the CH via a 13A plug (rather than an FCU) - then
you can unplug it from the mains and plug it into the genny instead. You
also need to give some thought to earthing, and to whether the genny's
neutral connection needs to be tied down rather than being allowed to float.

Without correct earthing arrangements a boiler is unlikely to flame
sense properly and so it'll never light

--
geoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What earthing arrangements would be needed? Please explain.

Well, with the normal electrical supply, earth is connected to neutral
at the local substation

Now just connecting the genny neutral to earth might not be such a good
idea, but the flame sensing in a boiler is always referenced to earth

Someone will be along later who hasn't drunk as much wine as I have
today ...


--
geoff

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
geoff wrote:

In message
,
Mikeyboy writes
On 9 Dec, 19:23, geoff wrote:
In message , Roger Mills
writes





In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mikeyboy wrote:

I was thinking it might it be a good idea to buy a generator, to
power my CH, freezer, fridge/freezer (one of those American ones)
in the event of a power cut. What out put do you think I might
need? I see Wolf's basic one is 230V output, 720 watts (max), 650
watts. Is that the sort of thing? They are advertising it for
under £50. Thanks for any help you can give!

Cheap generators are usually cheap because they're nasty - noisy
2-stroke engines, poor output voltage stability and God knows what
sort of waveform, but unlikely to be a clean sine wave.

Some boilers are quite fussy about the quality of the 'mains' to
which they are connected, and may not work properly - if at all -
with this type of generator.

You need to spend a lot more than 50 quid to get something
half-way decent. Have a look at the Honda inverter-based
generators. These are a lot more expensive, but have quiet
4-stroke engines and excellent voltage and waveform stability.
Bearing in mind that freezers etc. may require start-up currents
way in excess of the steady running level, you need a generator
which can cope with that. I have personally opted for a 2kW model
(which I bought 2 or 3 years ago as an insurance against power
cuts, but haven't yet had to use in anger!)

How are you planning to connect your CH system to a genny? Under no
circumstances must you allow genny output to get into the external
mains. The best bet is to power the CH via a 13A plug (rather than
an FCU) - then you can unplug it from the mains and plug it into
the genny instead. You also need to give some thought to earthing,
and to whether the genny's neutral connection needs to be tied
down rather than being allowed to float.

Without correct earthing arrangements a boiler is unlikely to flame
sense properly and so it'll never light

--
geoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What earthing arrangements would be needed? Please explain.

Well, with the normal electrical supply, earth is connected to neutral
at the local substation

Now just connecting the genny neutral to earth might not be such a
good idea, but the flame sensing in a boiler is always referenced to
earth
Someone will be along later who hasn't drunk as much wine as I have
today ...

Based on a similar discussion a while ago, I did some measurements on my
Honda genny. I found that - left to its own devices -live to earth and
neutral to earth both measured 120v AC - and live to neutral 240v. From the
circuit diagram it didn't *look* as if the centre of the output coil was
physically connected to earth, and I guessed that it was just an inductive
effect - and that I could safely strap neutral to earth with no ill effects.
As a precaution, I first connected them through a resistor (60w bulb, or
somesuch) to see whether any current would flow. There was certainly no hint
of glowing from the bulb, and neutral remained steadfastly at 0v when the
bulb was in circuit. So I hard-wired them (by inserting a suitably-labelled
13A plug with neutral and earth connected together) in one of the two output
sockets on the genny. The genny works perfectly happily like that, and
powers any lights or power tools etc. which I plug into the other socket. I
haven't yet tried to run the boiler from it - but I'm pretty confident that
it would work.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 10:15:23 -0800 (PST), Mikeyboy wrote:

I was thinking it might it be a good idea to buy a generator, to power
my CH, freezer, fridge/freezer (one of those American ones) in the
event of a power cut. What out put do you think I might need?

Some one has already pointed out the problem of starting motors. A rough
rule of thumb is look at the motor rating and multiply that by 2.5 to give
the required generator rating. I wouldn't look at anything less than 2kW
with a long run tank.

I see Wolf's basic one is 230V output, 720 watts (max), 650 watts.

That will probably struggle to start the fridge/freezer particulary if it
is already running the CH and fridge and a few lights... It's also a two
stroke, so you need to faff about mixing oil with the fuel, fairly often
under full load, and it will be noisy(*).

The Honda invertor generators are nice, quiet, clean but expensive. The
chinese clones might be worth a look at, Kipor seem to have a reasonable
reputation as being OK. They come in two versions (coloured red or yellow)
but I can't remember the techincal differences off the top of my head.

(*) But probably not as noisy as my 2kW diesel but then that will run on
red diesel at about 50p/l and rather than road fuel at £1.00/l...


I agree with all above to go for at least 2kW. Mine is nominally 2.3
four-stroke, bought at B&Q a couple of years ago. I've used it three
times during extended power cuts (living in the country!). It will
simultaneously power a fridge, a large and a small freezer, the pump and
blower on my oil boiler, the CH pump and quite a few lights (all low
energy). What doesn't like it? Well the uniterruptible power supplies I
use for my computer network jitter and don't provide steady power, so no
work gets done. You have to start with everything switched off and then
switch stuff on one at a time. Boiler and fridge startups cause a
falter. I guess it wouldn't be good for the LE bulbs to do it too much?
I really must get around to putting in a pipe to carry the exhaust out
of my workshop. I just stay out at the moment with the door open!

Peter Scott

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mikeyboy wrote:

On 9 Dec, 22:19, "Roger Mills" wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,


Based on a similar discussion a while ago, I did some measurements
on my Honda genny. I found that - left to its own devices -live to
earth and neutral to earth both measured 120v AC - and live to
neutral 240v. From the circuit diagram it didn't *look* as if the
centre of the output coil was physically connected to earth, and I
guessed that it was just an inductive effect - and that I could
safely strap neutral to earth with no ill effects. As a precaution,
I first connected them through a resistor (60w bulb, or somesuch) to
see whether any current would flow. There was certainly no hint of
glowing from the bulb, and neutral remained steadfastly at 0v when
the bulb was in circuit. So I hard-wired them (by inserting a
suitably-labelled 13A plug with neutral and earth connected
together) in one of the two output sockets on the genny. The genny
works perfectly happily like that, and powers any lights or power
tools etc. which I plug into the other socket. I haven't yet tried
to run the boiler from it - but I'm pretty confident that it would
work.
Cheers,
Roger


OK I see what you mean. Thanks for that Roger.


Interestingly, having said that I'd never used the genny in anger, we had a
4-hour power-cut today [1] so I tried it on the CH. It worked like a dream!

[1] Apparently the electricity board had notified *some* of the neighbours
that the electricity would be off to enable them to maintain/replace some
kit, but they never told *me*. Nice one!
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

In article ,
Peter Scott writes:

I agree with all above to go for at least 2kW. Mine is nominally 2.3
four-stroke, bought at B&Q a couple of years ago. I've used it three
times during extended power cuts (living in the country!). It will
simultaneously power a fridge, a large and a small freezer, the pump and
blower on my oil boiler, the CH pump and quite a few lights (all low
energy). What doesn't like it? Well the uniterruptible power supplies I
use for my computer network jitter and don't provide steady power, so no
work gets done. You have to start with everything switched off and then
switch stuff on one at a time. Boiler and fridge startups cause a
falter. I guess it wouldn't be good for the LE bulbs to do it too much?
I really must get around to putting in a pipe to carry the exhaust out
of my workshop. I just stay out at the moment with the door open!

Two people died in the recent flooding from CO due to running a
generator indoors. I wouldn't risk CO not making its way through
the building fabric over an extended period of time.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Peter Scott writes:
I agree with all above to go for at least 2kW. Mine is nominally 2.3
four-stroke, bought at B&Q a couple of years ago. I've used it three
times during extended power cuts (living in the country!). It will
simultaneously power a fridge, a large and a small freezer, the pump and
blower on my oil boiler, the CH pump and quite a few lights (all low
energy). What doesn't like it? Well the uniterruptible power supplies I
use for my computer network jitter and don't provide steady power, so no
work gets done. You have to start with everything switched off and then
switch stuff on one at a time. Boiler and fridge startups cause a
falter. I guess it wouldn't be good for the LE bulbs to do it too much?
I really must get around to putting in a pipe to carry the exhaust out
of my workshop. I just stay out at the moment with the door open!

Two people died in the recent flooding from CO due to running a
generator indoors. I wouldn't risk CO not making its way through
the building fabric over an extended period of time.

No this is a detached shed 20 m away from the house, but thanks for the
cautionary warning.

Peter Scott

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:34:35 +0000, Peter Scott wrote:

I've used it three times during extended power cuts (living in the
country!).

I'm waiting for the power cut that means I can get the geney out in anger.

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Roger Mills wrote:

Based on a similar discussion a while ago, I did some measurements on my
Honda genny. I found that - left to its own devices -live to earth and
neutral to earth both measured 120v AC - and live to neutral 240v. From the
circuit diagram it didn't *look* as if the centre of the output coil was
physically connected to earth, and I guessed that it was just an inductive
effect - and that I could safely strap neutral to earth with no ill effects.
As a precaution, I first connected them through a resistor (60w bulb, or
somesuch) to see whether any current would flow. There was certainly no hint
of glowing from the bulb, and neutral remained steadfastly at 0v when the
bulb was in circuit. So I hard-wired them (by inserting a suitably-labelled
13A plug with neutral and earth connected together)

But what is the earth pin on the genny connected to? (yes I know the
genny's neutral!)

This is actually quite a complicated part of the wiring regs.
You should be creating a suitable earth of your own (e.g. an
earth rod), and bonding the neutral to that. This would be a
TT or IT installation, and require an RCD. You aren't allowed
to assume that any earth provided by your mains supplier
continues to provide a valid earth connection during a power
cut. Same thing applies to a UPS.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

I've used it three times during extended power cuts (living in the
country!).

I'm waiting for the power cut that means I can get the geney out in
anger. Our power is remarkeably stable and reliable considering we are
in one of the remotest parts of England.

We find the same in rural Scotland. But if a line does come down, it's
likely to be part of a very widespread pattern of power cuts (probably
involving strong winds and heavy snowfall) so repairs can take several
days.

I've made sure that the CH system is happy, I don't envisage any
trouble with the fridge and freezers.

Even a much smaller generator can handle those, as none of them needs to
be run continuously, and they don't need to be run at the same time. You
only need to charge up the radiators with hot water periodically, and
then you can swap to the fridge and/or freezer to charge those up with
coolth.

Within those limitations, the little Wolf has been an excellent
investment. As well as providing cover for power cuts, it is small and
light enough to chuck in the wheelbarrow or the back of a car, along
with the rest of the power tools.

What doesn't like it? Well the uniterruptible power supplies I use for
my computer network jitter and don't provide steady power,

Not tried that I'm happy for the silence,

Same experience here with the UPS, so I'm content to crank up the wood
stove and enjoy an enforced holiday. There are always plenty of other
jobs to catch up on.


--
Ian White

On Dec 9, 6:15 pm, Mikeyboy wrote:
I was thinking it might it be a good idea to buy a generator, to power
my CH, freezer, fridge/freezer (one of those American ones) in the
event of a power cut. What out put do you think I might need? I see
Wolf's basic one is 230V output, 720 watts (max), 650 watts. Is that
the sort of thing? They are advertising it for under £50.
Thanks for any help you can give!

If you only want to run low power things for a short time, what about
a big leisure battery and a DC-AC converter? You store about 1 kW.hr
in a normal 100 amp.hour battery.

Robert

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:55:29 +0000, Ian White wrote:

Our power is remarkeably stable and reliable considering we are in one
of the remotest parts of England.

We find the same in rural Scotland. But if a line does come down, it's
likely to be part of a very widespread pattern of power cuts (probably
involving strong winds and heavy snowfall) so repairs can take several
days.

Aye. Cuts here are either a few seconds as the auto-recloser does it stuff
or at least 6 hours as men in Land Rovers come out to re-route the local
11kV distribution and find the fault.

Even a much smaller generator can handle those, as none of them needs to
be run continuously, and they don't need to be run at the same time.

This is true but the OP has a big american fridge thing. Now it's only a
heat pump but does such are large fridge have a more powerful heat pump?
The little 650W two strokes do struggle to start some fridges/freezers.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On 11 Dec 2007 08:44:33 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

You should be creating a suitable earth of your own (e.g. an earth rod),
and bonding the neutral to that. This would be a TT or IT installation,
and require an RCD.

Either that or leave both generator phases floating and run extension
leads to the appliances that need power and plug them in. But with
floating phases you shouldn't really be running multiple appliances...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Roger Mills wrote:

Based on a similar discussion a while ago, I did some measurements
on my Honda genny. I found that - left to its own devices -live to
earth and neutral to earth both measured 120v AC - and live to
neutral 240v. From the circuit diagram it didn't *look* as if the
centre of the output coil was physically connected to earth, and I
guessed that it was just an inductive effect - and that I could
safely strap neutral to earth with no ill effects. As a precaution,
I first connected them through a resistor (60w bulb, or somesuch)
to see whether any current would flow. There was certainly no hint
of glowing from the bulb, and neutral remained steadfastly at 0v
when the bulb was in circuit. So I hard-wired them (by inserting a
suitably-labelled 13A plug with neutral and earth connected
together)

But what is the earth pin on the genny connected to? (yes I know the
genny's neutral!)

This is actually quite a complicated part of the wiring regs.
You should be creating a suitable earth of your own (e.g. an
earth rod), and bonding the neutral to that. This would be a
TT or IT installation, and require an RCD. You aren't allowed
to assume that any earth provided by your mains supplier
continues to provide a valid earth connection during a power
cut. Same thing applies to a UPS.

That's precisely what I've done. The genny has an earth terminal which is
internally connected to the earth pins on the output sockets. I have fitted
a spade connector to this, and have a length of 12mm^2 earth cable,
connected to an earth rod, and terminated with a suitable female connector
in the location where the genny will be. It's therefore very quick to
connect the external earth. The extension cable which plugs into the genny
has an RCD incorporated into its plug.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:37:54 -0800 (PST), RobertL wrote:

I was thinking it might it be a good idea to buy a generator, to power
my CH, freezer, fridge/freezer (one of those American ones) in the
event of a power cut.

If you only want to run low power things for a short time, what about
a big leisure battery and a DC-AC converter?

I wouldn't call a freezer or a big fridge/freezer a "low power thing".
They are also not nice resistive loads the invertor might object to the
inductive load or, as with generators, have trouble starting it in the
first place.

And of course once your battery is flat that's it. At least with a
generator you can siphon fuel from your car or nip down to the local
garage (assuming they have power...)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Liquorice wrote:


Even a much smaller generator can handle those, as none of them needs to
be run continuously, and they don't need to be run at the same time.

This is true but the OP has a big american fridge thing. Now it's only a
heat pump but does such are large fridge have a more powerful heat pump?
The little 650W two strokes do struggle to start some fridges/freezers.


Up-thread, I confirmed that the Wolf does struggle to start our own
large fridge-freezer, but that the generator always wins. That obviously
can't be guaranteed for such appliances in general, but at less than £50
the OP may consider it worth a punt.


--
Ian White

The message
from Ian White contains these words:


I've made sure that the CH system is happy, I don't envisage any
trouble with the fridge and freezers.

Even a much smaller generator can handle those, as none of them needs to
be run continuously, and they don't need to be run at the same time. You
only need to charge up the radiators with hot water periodically, and
then you can swap to the fridge and/or freezer to charge those up with
coolth.

Be careful if you've got an electronic CH programmer. Most of them are
very sensitive to poorly-regulated power supplies at inaccurate
frequencies and odd waveforms. Better to have arrangements to take it
out of circuit.

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:55:03 GMT, Appin wrote:

Be careful if you've got an electronic CH programmer. Most of them are
very sensitive to poorly-regulated power supplies at inaccurate
frequencies and odd waveforms. Better to have arrangements to take it
out of circuit.

Another reason for having a larger generator and under running it than a
small one that is struggling. The regulation (voltage and frequency) and
waveform on a larger generator will be better; bigger alternator more
copper in the windings, lower impedance; bigger engine more umph to
maintain speed under load chnages.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail