SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the
bathroom, she has already selected the suite she wants.
Now me and the kids have showers (over the bath at the mo) but she
prefers a bath so I want a fitted shower cubicle
The only place I can fit a separate shower is in the corner where the
airing cupboard is with the hot water tank.
I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water.
I am sure lots of you have experience of these but I have a few questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

Bazza

In article ,
Bazza wrote:
SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the
bathroom, she has already selected the suite she wants. Now me and the
kids have showers (over the bath at the mo) but she prefers a bath so I
want a fitted shower cubicle The only place I can fit a separate shower
is in the corner where the airing cupboard is with the hot water tank.
I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water. I am sure lots of you have
experience of these but I have a few questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

If you still want to have the bath you'll find the time it takes for the
average combi to fill it very much longer than with a decent storage
system (especially in cold weather where the incoming mains water is very
cold) as a combi can't heat the same volume of water at the same
temperature instantly as a storage system can dispense.

If you look at the spec of a combi it will give the water flow at a
certain temperature. You can measure your present flow (and temperature)
to the bath to compare. And since you already have all the parts in place
for a decent storage system which presumably works pretty well, beware of
prats like Drivel who will be along shortly to tell you a combi is the
answer to world peace. ;-)

--
*How do they get the deer to cross at that yellow road sign?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:22:30 +0000, Bazza wrote:

SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the bathroom,
she has already selected the suite she wants. Now me and the kids have
showers (over the bath at the mo) but she prefers a bath so I want a
fitted shower cubicle The only place I can fit a separate shower is in the
corner where the airing cupboard is with the hot water tank. I have
nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi boiler system
for the rads and hot water. I am sure lots of you have experience of these
but I have a few questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this is
hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains pressure,
mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower, all
cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

Bazza

==================================
Not a *recommendation* but a possible alternative worth considering.

A multipoint water heater could be installed as a completely independent
unit to supply domestic hot water only. You could then remove the hot and
cold water tanks (except for the existing CH header tank - probably in
your loft) thus leaving space in your bathroom for a shower cubicle. You
would then have your existing boiler for CH and the multipoint (mains
pressure - no storage) for HW thus giving you two completely independent
systems.

Many people look down at multipoints because of their lower delivery rates
but there are thousands of them in use by satisfied users.

Cic.

--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bazza wrote:
SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the
bathroom, she has already selected the suite she wants. Now me and the
kids have showers (over the bath at the mo) but she prefers a bath so I
want a fitted shower cubicle The only place I can fit a separate shower
is in the corner where the airing cupboard is with the hot water tank.
I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water. I am sure lots of you have
experience of these but I have a few questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

If you still want to have the bath you'll find the time it takes for the
average combi to fill it very much longer than with a decent storage
system (

Not this pillock again!! There are high flow combis around. This man should
eff off.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bazza wrote:
SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the
bathroom, she has already selected the suite she wants. Now me and the
kids have showers (over the bath at the mo) but she prefers a bath so I
want a fitted shower cubicle The only place I can fit a separate shower
is in the corner where the airing cupboard is with the hot water tank.
I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water. I am sure lots of you have
experience of these but I have a few questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

If you still want to have the bath you'll find the time it takes for the
average combi to fill it very much longer than with a decent storage
system (especially in cold weather where the incoming mains water is very
cold) as a combi can't heat the same volume of water at the same
temperature instantly as a storage system can dispense.

If you look at the spec of a combi it will give the water flow at a
certain temperature. You can measure your present flow (and temperature)
to the bath to compare. And since you already have all the parts in place
for a decent storage system which presumably works pretty well, beware of
prats like Drivel who will be along shortly to tell you a combi is the
answer to world peace. ;-)


Waiting for the bath to fill is not really a big problem as we mostly
take showers, it's just that I would "really" like to have a separate
shower and the only way is for the tank to go, have already told the
wife that the boiler is old and could fail at anytime and with the new
regs the airing cupboard is not an option anymore ;-)

I have no other problems with the system but as I will be totally
gutting the bathroom anyway I may as well go the whole hog.
I await to hear what the good doctor has to say, I do keep an open mind

"Bazza" wrote in message
...
SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the bathroom,
she has already selected the suite she wants.
Now me and the kids have showers (over the bath at the mo) but she prefers
a bath so I want a fitted shower cubicle
The only place I can fit a separate shower is in the corner where the
airing cupboard is with the hot water tank.
I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi boiler
system for the rads and hot water.
I am sure lots of you have experience of these but I have a few questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this is
hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains pressure,
mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower, all
cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

You want one on the wall. There are quite a number of decent boilers that
will do.

The RRs are Atag, Atmos, ACV, Buderus, ECO-Hometec, Viessman.
Middle of the road along with Vaillant, Glow Worm are Worcester Bosch.

My favourite combi is the Atmos (well the Intergas range) - comes with a
weather compensator too. Not cheap, but this sort of quality and design
never is, but you can get a good deal if you look around. A very simple
well thought out boiler built like a tank. The whole back panel is the heat
exchanger. They only go to around 12.5 litres/min. Higher flows you use the
floor standing Multi.

High flowrate wall mounted combi?

- Eco-Hometec - V Good and expensive.
- Glow Worm 38 kW
- Worcester Bosch Greenstar 40kW

You will not be disappointed with any of the above three and in a one
bedroomed house they are fine. They all do around 16 litres per minute
flowrate. If you want to go less than 16 litres/min for for the Atmos.

There are physically larger combis like the Worcester Bosch 937 and the
Alpha CD50 which deliver flowrates as good as any storage system - as they
have internal storage.

Have you thought of fitting a combi in the loft?

"Bazza" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bazza wrote:
SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the
bathroom, she has already selected the suite she wants. Now me and the
kids have showers (over the bath at the mo) but she prefers a bath so I
want a fitted shower cubicle The only place I can fit a separate shower
is in the corner where the airing cupboard is with the hot water tank.
I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water. I am sure lots of you have
experience of these but I have a few questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

If you still want to have the bath you'll find the time it takes for the
average combi to fill it very much longer than with a decent storage
system (especially in cold weather where the incoming mains water is very
cold) as a combi can't heat the same volume of water at the same
temperature instantly as a storage system can dispense.

If you look at the spec of a combi it will give the water flow at a
certain temperature. You can measure your present flow (and temperature)
to the bath to compare. And since you already have all the parts in place
for a decent storage system which presumably works pretty well, beware of
prats like Drivel who will be along shortly to tell you a combi is the
answer to world peace. ;-)


Waiting for the bath to fill is not really a big problem

See my post on this.

"Cicero" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:22:30 +0000, Bazza wrote:

SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the bathroom,
she has already selected the suite she wants. Now me and the kids have
showers (over the bath at the mo) but she prefers a bath so I want a
fitted shower cubicle The only place I can fit a separate shower is in
the
corner where the airing cupboard is with the hot water tank. I have
nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi boiler
system
for the rads and hot water. I am sure lots of you have experience of
these
but I have a few questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is
hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains pressure,
mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower, all
cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

Bazza

==================================
Not a *recommendation* but a possible alternative worth considering.

A multipoint water heater could be installed as a completely independent
unit to supply domestic hot water only.

A very good suggestion. Try the Rinnai which gives high flow rates and can
be fitted outside to save space. High quality Japanese product that is
taking off in the UK.

You could then remove the hot and
cold water tanks (except for the existing CH header tank - probably in
your loft) thus leaving space in your bathroom for a shower cubicle. You
would then have your existing boiler for CH and the multipoint (mains
pressure - no storage) for HW thus giving you two completely independent
systems.

Many people look down at multipoints because of their lower delivery rates
but there are thousands of them in use by satisfied users.

Look at the Rinnai which has high flowrate deliveries:
http://www.rinnaiuk.com

"Cicero" wrote in message
news
A multipoint water heater could be installed as a completely independent
unit to supply domestic hot water only.

He has an inefficient 20 year old boiler, which really needs replacing with
a modern cheap to run model. In his case. He may as well go for a good
quality high flowrate combi.

"Bazza" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bazza wrote:
SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the
bathroom, she has already selected the suite she wants. Now me and the
kids have showers (over the bath at the mo) but she prefers a bath so I
want a fitted shower cubicle The only place I can fit a separate shower
is in the corner where the airing cupboard is with the hot water tank.
I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water. I am sure lots of you have
experience of these but I have a few questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

If you still want to have the bath you'll find the time it takes for the
average combi to fill it very much longer than with a decent storage
system (especially in cold weather where the incoming mains water is very
cold) as a combi can't heat the same volume of water at the same
temperature instantly as a storage system can dispense.

If you look at the spec of a combi it will give the water flow at a
certain temperature. You can measure your present flow (and temperature)
to the bath to compare. And since you already have all the parts in place
for a decent storage system which presumably works pretty well, beware of
prats like Drivel who will be along shortly to tell you a combi is the
answer to world peace. ;-)


Waiting for the bath to fill is not really a big problem as we mostly take
showers,

There's two characteristics of a combi system I'd flag up. Firstly the time
for hot water to arrive at the bathroom basin can be frustrating and unlike
storage can't be shortened by increasing flow. You're bound to notice this
because your existing storage is adjacent to the bathroom. Made worse if
backfeeding from the new combi position over existing 22mm pipework. The
other issue is that you will now have a single point failure for DHW and CH.
You need to have contingency plan. Perhaps a maintenance contract, but
that's another issue...

Jim A

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
If you still want to have the bath you'll find the time it takes for
the average combi to fill it very much longer than with a decent
storage system (

Not this pillock again!! There are high flow combis around.

There are indeed. At a high cost. And both the gas and water main might
need replacing to supply them.

This man should eff off.

Isn't about time you went away again? You're still obviously not well in
the head.

--
*Constipated People Don't Give A Crap*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bazza wrote:
If you look at the spec of a combi it will give the water flow at a
certain temperature. You can measure your present flow (and
temperature) to the bath to compare. And since you already have all
the parts in place for a decent storage system which presumably works
pretty well, beware of prats like Drivel who will be along shortly to
tell you a combi is the answer to world peace. ;-)


Waiting for the bath to fill is not really a big problem as we mostly
take showers, it's just that I would "really" like to have a separate
shower and the only way is for the tank to go, have already told the
wife that the boiler is old and could fail at anytime and with the new
regs the airing cupboard is not an option anymore ;-)

Right - if you need the space and realise the limitations of a combi (or
rather your wife does) it could well be the way to go.

I have no other problems with the system but as I will be totally
gutting the bathroom anyway I may as well go the whole hog.
I await to hear what the good doctor has to say, I do keep an open mind

The best advice is to ignore totally what he says as he knows the value of
nothing and would love to spend other's money on his 'quaint' ideas. But
plenty others will give you good advice based on your actual requirements.

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

There's two characteristics of a combi system I'd flag up. Firstly the time
for hot water to arrive at the bathroom basin can be frustrating and unlike
storage can't be shortened by increasing flow. You're bound to notice this
because your existing storage is adjacent to the bathroom. Made worse if
backfeeding from the new combi position over existing 22mm pipework. The
other issue is that you will now have a single point failure for DHW and CH.
You need to have contingency plan. Perhaps a maintenance contract, but
that's another issue...

Jim A
Is the time taken to get hot water to the tap due to the run of the
pipes or the heating time of the combi? the combi would be mounted in
the kitchen directly below the bathroom.
I have an immersion heater but never had to use it, if the boiler has
failed I have always managed to fix it the same day, admittedly it is
old with not much gubbins, are combi's much more complicated?

On 12 Nov, 12:22, Bazza wrote:
SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the
bathroom, she has already selected the suite she wants.
Now me and the kids have showers (over the bath at the mo) but she
prefers a bath so I want a fitted shower cubicle
The only place I can fit a separate shower is in the corner where the
airing cupboard is with the hot water tank.
I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water.
I am sure lots of you have experience of these but I have a few questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

Bazza

Well I don't know anything about combis, but I do have three people I
know who have them, and they are aways giving bother. My mother's
neighbour loses hers monthly - I had friend's daughter on the phone
this morning asking for assistance with hers yet again, and it
requires professional input this time, and another friend regards his
as the spawn of the devil. I don't know anyone who has one that works
without breaking down !

The was a time on this forum when there was a move to ban this
particular 'C' word.

Rob

"Bazza" wrote in message
...


There's two characteristics of a combi system I'd flag up. Firstly the
time for hot water to arrive at the bathroom basin can be frustrating and
unlike storage can't be shortened by increasing flow. You're bound to
notice this because your existing storage is adjacent to the bathroom.
Made worse if backfeeding from the new combi position over existing 22mm
pipework. The other issue is that you will now have a single point
failure for DHW and CH. You need to have contingency plan. Perhaps a
maintenance contract, but that's another issue...

Jim A
Is the time taken to get hot water to the tap due to the run of the pipes
or the heating time of the combi? the combi would be mounted in the
kitchen directly below the bathroom.

Its due to the volume of water in the pipes and the limited flow rate of the
combi. The water heats as near as dammit instantly at the combi but changes
in flow rate at a remote tap take time to be reflected in the temperature
delivered at the tap, unlike storage systems where the temperature is
independent of flow rate. Sorry didn't mention that earlier. Some top of
the range combis have a limited reservoir of hot water but never installed
one so no idea if that helps.

BTW not dead set against combis but best to understand their
characteristics.

Jim A

In article ,
Bazza wrote:
I have an immersion heater but never had to use it, if the boiler has
failed I have always managed to fix it the same day, admittedly it is
old with not much gubbins, are combi's much more complicated?

Yes they are - but them so are most modern boilers. You can say goodbye to
your near total reliability with simple fixes if anything goes wrong.

--
*If work is so terrific, how come they have to pay you to do it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:25:16 GMT someone who may be Bazza
wrote this:-

Waiting for the bath to fill is not really a big problem as we mostly
take showers,

Have you warned SWMBO that a combination boiler is likely to take
two to three times as long to fill the bath? Is SWMBO happy with
this?

it's just that I would "really" like to have a separate shower

Do you really want to have one in the bathroom? Would it not be
better/possible to put one elsewhere and cut the bathroom queue?

The sort of combination boilers one tends to see in houses are fine
for one or two people, but any more than that and their limitations
tend to show up.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Bazza" wrote in message
...
SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the
bathroom, she has already selected the suite she wants.
Now me and the kids have showers (over the bath at the mo) but she
prefers a bath so I want a fitted shower cubicle
The only place I can fit a separate shower is in the corner where the
airing cupboard is with the hot water tank.
I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water.
I am sure lots of you have experience of these but I have a few
questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system,
this is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly
straight forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing,
has this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

You want one on the wall. There are quite a number of decent boilers
that will do.

The RRs are Atag, Atmos, ACV, Buderus, ECO-Hometec, Viessman.
Middle of the road along with Vaillant, Glow Worm are Worcester Bosch.

My favourite combi is the Atmos (well the Intergas range) - comes with a
weather compensator too. Not cheap, but this sort of quality and design
never is, but you can get a good deal if you look around. A very
simple well thought out boiler built like a tank. The whole back panel
is the heat exchanger. They only go to around 12.5 litres/min. Higher
flows you use the floor standing Multi.

High flowrate wall mounted combi?

- Eco-Hometec - V Good and expensive.
- Glow Worm 38 kW
- Worcester Bosch Greenstar 40kW

You will not be disappointed with any of the above three and in a one
bedroomed house they are fine.

I have a 3 bed house but only 1 bathroom, hot water will be used for
shower and bath (not at the same time) kitchen sink not used for washing
up, have a dishwasher for that.

They all do around 16 litres per minute
flowrate. If you want to go less than 16 litres/min for for the Atmos.

There are physically larger combis like the Worcester Bosch 937 and the
Alpha CD50 which deliver flowrates as good as any storage system - as
they have internal storage.

Have you thought of fitting a combi in the loft?


Could be a way to go fitting it in the loft, not much room anywhere else
in the house unless it can fit on a wall in a space 600 wide x 600 high,
If I floor mounted it I would have to take out a kitchen unit, don't
think she would let me get away with that.

David Hansen wrote:
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:25:16 GMT someone who may be Bazza
wrote this:-

Waiting for the bath to fill is not really a big problem as we mostly
take showers,

Have you warned SWMBO that a combination boiler is likely to take
two to three times as long to fill the bath? Is SWMBO happy with
this?

it's just that I would "really" like to have a separate shower

Do you really want to have one in the bathroom? Would it not be
better/possible to put one elsewhere and cut the bathroom queue?

The sort of combination boilers one tends to see in houses are fine
for one or two people, but any more than that and their limitations
tend to show up.

No space for a downstairs shower, the bathroom it has to be, garage is
the only other place but on a cold morning walking up the garden to the
garage Brrrrrr

Doctor Drivel wrote:


You want one on the wall. There are quite a number of decent boilers
that will do.

The RRs are Atag, Atmos, ACV, Buderus, ECO-Hometec, Viessman.
Middle of the road along with Vaillant, Glow Worm are Worcester Bosch.

My favourite combi is the Atmos (well the Intergas range) - comes with a
weather compensator too. Not cheap, but this sort of quality and design
never is, but you can get a good deal if you look around. A very
simple well thought out boiler built like a tank. The whole back panel
is the heat exchanger. They only go to around 12.5 litres/min. Higher
flows you use the floor standing Multi.

High flowrate wall mounted combi?

- Eco-Hometec - V Good and expensive.
- Glow Worm 38 kW
- Worcester Bosch Greenstar 40kW

You will not be disappointed with any of the above three and in a one
bedroomed house they are fine. They all do around 16 litres per minute
flowrate. If you want to go less than 16 litres/min for for the Atmos.

Just been upstairs and filled a bucket for a minute (with the shower
that is) 10 ltrs per min so the 16 should be adequate

There are physically larger combis like the Worcester Bosch 937 and the
Alpha CD50 which deliver flowrates as good as any storage system - as
they have internal storage.

Have you thought of fitting a combi in the loft?

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:37:34 GMT, Bazza wrote:

No space for a downstairs shower, the bathroom it has to be, garage is
the only other place but on a cold morning walking up the garden to the
garage Brrrrrr

Be warned. It was "Brass Monkey" weather this morning. :-((

DG

robgraham wrote:

Well I don't know anything about combis, but I do have three people I
know who have them, and they are aways giving bother. My mother's
neighbour loses hers monthly - I had friend's daughter on the phone
this morning asking for assistance with hers yet again, and it
requires professional input this time, and another friend regards his
as the spawn of the devil. I don't know anyone who has one that works
without breaking down !

The was a time on this forum when there was a move to ban this
particular 'C' word.

Rob


We have had one for a little over two years -- it's in a 4-bed house,
but only 2 of us live here. There's a fairly high-end thermostatic
over-the-bath-type shower running directly from it, plus the CH and
other DHW. It replaced a traditional boiler + DHW storage cylinder
arrangement and a truly awful 7.5kW electric shower.

Before paying for anything, we read a pile of technical literature,
talked to the Corgi chap, measured the incoming water flow rate and
pressure at both the kitchen sink and the first floor bath (within
tolerance, but towards the lower end of the scale), and even checked
that we were going to be OK with respect to the length/capacity of the
gas pipe feeding the boiler (long Victorian house, with the boiler being
sited upstairs near the rear of the property).

To be fair, if you flush the loo or turn a tap on when the someone is in
the shower, then the shower flow-rate drops a bit (more if you flush the
loo AND turn a tap on, etc). However, we used to get that problem with
the crappy electric shower we used to have, so that's not an issue for
us. At least with the new shower the water coming out of the head is at
a pretty damn constant temperature, regardless of the flow rate. When
it's *only* the shower using water, then the pressure is way more than
adequate, the wall mounted shower-head being easily able to spray the
opposite wall (about 6' away).

The bath fills at roughly the same speed as it did pre-combi (I never
timed it, so can't be precise, but it doesn't seem to take significantly
longer), but the part we love is that we *know* we're not going to run
out of hot water or can only take a bath when we know there's sufficient
hot water in the tank.

It's only two years old, but the boiler has behaved flawlessly in that
time. Our gas bills are a lot less, too, but then the previous boiler
was about 25 years old, so that's no major surprise.

On the other hand, I have a friend who had a combi fitted about 3 years
ago by BG. He considers it to be the worst POS he's ever had, plus
nearly all his hot taps leaked (and a few rads) just after BG had fitted
it. I asked him if they'd measured the water pressure/flow rate etc.
prior to fitting, or advised him about the fact that the DHW & CH
systems would now be somewhat pressurised, to which he said they hadn't
told him anything and hadn't (as far as he knows) measured anything. Go
figure.

Styx

"Bazza" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Bazza" wrote in message
...
SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the
bathroom, she has already selected the suite she wants.
Now me and the kids have showers (over the bath at the mo) but she
prefers a bath so I want a fitted shower cubicle
The only place I can fit a separate shower is in the corner where the
airing cupboard is with the hot water tank.
I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water.
I am sure lots of you have experience of these but I have a few
questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

You want one on the wall. There are quite a number of decent boilers that
will do.

The RRs are Atag, Atmos, ACV, Buderus, ECO-Hometec, Viessman.
Middle of the road along with Vaillant, Glow Worm are Worcester Bosch.

My favourite combi is the Atmos (well the Intergas range) - comes with a
weather compensator too. Not cheap, but this sort of quality and design
never is, but you can get a good deal if you look around. A very simple
well thought out boiler built like a tank. The whole back panel is the
heat exchanger. They only go to around 12.5 litres/min. Higher flows you
use the floor standing Multi.

High flowrate wall mounted combi?

- Eco-Hometec - V Good and expensive.
- Glow Worm 38 kW
- Worcester Bosch Greenstar 40kW

You will not be disappointed with any of the above three and in a one
bedroomed house they are fine.

I have a 3 bed house but only 1 bathroom, hot water will be used for
shower and bath (not at the same time) kitchen sink not used for washing
up, have a dishwasher for that.

I meant one bathroom.

They all do around 16 litres per minute
flowrate. If you want to go less than 16 litres/min for for the Atmos.

There are physically larger combis like the Worcester Bosch 937 and the
Alpha CD50 which deliver flowrates as good as any storage system - as
they have internal storage.

Have you thought of fitting a combi in the loft?

Could be a way to go fitting it in the loft, not much room anywhere else
in the house unless it can fit on a wall in a space 600 wide x 600 high,
If I floor mounted it I would have to take out a kitchen unit, don't think
she would let me get away with that.

If you have a gable end consider a loft installation. You can also have the
flue through the roof tiles too. More expense but worth it if it frees up
space. Then the boiler can be mounted on metal unistrut tied to the rafters
and joists. You will need a shoot down ladder, boarded from hatch to
boiler, permanent light over boiler, a rail around hatch if near to boiler.
They don't like the boiler being used to rest items on it for storage. So
wall mounted high up prevents this, or on unistrut.

The condensate pipe can be run over to the 4" soil pipe if running through
the loft, or down to the bathroom area or outside via the loft and into the
soil pipe if outside. Insulate the condensate pipe to prevent freezing.

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
. uk...

"Bazza" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bazza wrote:
SWMBO has just given me my project for next spring - revamp the
bathroom, she has already selected the suite she wants. Now me and the
kids have showers (over the bath at the mo) but she prefers a bath so I
want a fitted shower cubicle The only place I can fit a separate shower
is in the corner where the airing cupboard is with the hot water tank.
I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water. I am sure lots of you have
experience of these but I have a few questions.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing,
has this improved on recent models?

Any recommendations

If you still want to have the bath you'll find the time it takes for the
average combi to fill it very much longer than with a decent storage
system (especially in cold weather where the incoming mains water is
very
cold) as a combi can't heat the same volume of water at the same
temperature instantly as a storage system can dispense.

If you look at the spec of a combi it will give the water flow at a
certain temperature. You can measure your present flow (and temperature)
to the bath to compare. And since you already have all the parts in
place
for a decent storage system which presumably works pretty well, beware
of
prats like Drivel who will be along shortly to tell you a combi is the
answer to world peace. ;-)


Waiting for the bath to fill is not really a big problem as we mostly
take showers,

There's two characteristics of a combi system I'd flag up. Firstly the
time for hot water to arrive at the bathroom basin can be frustrating and
unlike storage can't be shortened by increasing flow.

Some combis have a small integral water vessel to prevent this.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
If you still want to have the bath you'll find the time it takes for
the average combi to fill it very much longer than with a decent
storage system (

Not this pillock again!! There are high flow combis around.

There

This man should eff off.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bazza wrote:
If you look at the spec of a combi it will give the water flow at a
certain temperature. You can measure your present flow (and
temperature) to the bath to compare. And since you already have all
the parts in place for a decent storage system which presumably works
pretty well, beware of prats like Drivel who will be along shortly to
tell you a combi is the answer to world peace. ;-)


Waiting for the bath to fill is not really a big problem as we mostly
take showers, it's just that I would "really" like to have a separate
shower and the only way is for the tank to go, have already told the
wife that the boiler is old and could fail at anytime and with the new
regs the airing cupboard is not an option anymore ;-)

Right - if you need the space
and realise the limitations of a combi

Take not notice of this idiot. Combis have no limitations as there is a
model out there that will give fast delivery and high flowrate delivery too.

"Bazza" wrote in message
...


There's two characteristics of a combi system I'd flag up. Firstly the
time for hot water to arrive at the bathroom basin can be frustrating and
unlike storage can't be shortened by increasing flow. You're bound to
notice this because your existing storage is adjacent to the bathroom.
Made worse if backfeeding from the new combi position over existing 22mm
pipework. The other issue is that you will now have a single point
failure for DHW and CH. You need to have contingency plan. Perhaps a
maintenance contract, but that's another issue...

Jim A
Is the time taken to get hot water to the tap due to the run of the pipes
or the heating time of the combi? the combi would be mounted in the
kitchen directly below the bathroom.
I have an immersion heater but never had to use it, if the boiler has
failed I have always managed to fix it the same day, admittedly it is old
with not much gubbins, are combi's much more complicated?

The Atmos is very simple. You tend to get what you pay for in combis.

"robgraham" wrote in message
oups.com...

Well I don't know anything about combis,
but I do have three people I know who
have them, and they are aways giving bother.

What models? How much did they cost? Were they installed correctly? The
best tend to cost more - as with any appliance.

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
.uk...

"Bazza" wrote in message
...


There's two characteristics of a combi system I'd flag up. Firstly the
time for hot water to arrive at the bathroom basin can be frustrating
and unlike storage can't be shortened by increasing flow. You're bound
to notice this because your existing storage is adjacent to the
bathroom. Made worse if backfeeding from the new combi position over
existing 22mm pipework. The other issue is that you will now have a
single point failure for DHW and CH. You need to have contingency plan.
Perhaps a maintenance contract, but that's another issue...

Jim A
Is the time taken to get hot water to the tap due to the run of the pipes
or the heating time of the combi? the combi would be mounted in the
kitchen directly below the bathroom.

Its due to the volume of water in the pipes and the limited flow rate of
the combi. The water heats as near as dammit instantly at the combi but
changes in flow rate at a remote tap take time to be reflected in the
temperature delivered at the tap, unlike storage systems where the
temperature is independent of flow rate. Sorry didn't mention that
earlier. Some top of the range combis have a limited reservoir of hot
water but never installed one so no idea if that helps.

BTW not dead set against combis but best to understand their
characteristics.

Do not generalise. There are combis that can do 3 bathrooms. Many are just
brilliant.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bazza wrote:
I have an immersion heater but never had to use it, if the boiler has
failed I have always managed to fix it the same day, admittedly it is
old with not much gubbins, are combi's much more complicated?

Yes they are

Take no notice of this idiot.

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:25:16 GMT someone who may be Bazza
wrote this:-

Waiting for the bath to fill is
not really a big problem as we mostly
take showers,

Have you warned SWMBO that a
combination boiler is likely to take
two to three times as long to fill the bath?

Which model do you refer? Many can fill baths faster than storage systems.

The sort of combination boilers one tends to see in houses are fine
for one or two people, but any more than that and their limitations
tend to show up.

You should get to know more about combi boilers.

Bazza wrote:

I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water.
I am sure lots of you have experience of these but I have a few questions.

You get what you pay for to an extent. So go with decent brands and at
the higher end of the power specs on the boiler and it will do what you
want.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The procedure needs a little planning, but is not that difficult. When I
did mine it went something like:

http://www.internode.co.uk/loft/boiler.htm

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

Yup, you can't generally pump mains water, and the hot will be at mains
pressure.

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Which makes life simpler. If you are replacing the shower anyway you
don't even need to worry about the shower feed particularly.

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

See Ed'd boiler choice FAQ, he spells out many of the details that tend
to influence the reliability etc. Also remember to compare like with
like - you can't buy a basic cast iron lump with minimal electronics any
more so there is no point comparing a combi with that.

A modern condensing boiler designed to be one from the outset (rather
than a old design that has been reworked to be a condenser later) will
tend to be better.

Any recommendations

Reasonable starting point with links to the other FAQs etc:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Heating_Design


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Bazza wrote:

I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water.
I am sure lots of you have experience of these but I have a few
questions.

You get what you pay for to an extent. So go with decent brands and at the
higher end of the power specs on the boiler and it will do what you want.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The procedure needs a little planning, but is not that difficult. When I
did mine it went something like:

http://www.internode.co.uk/loft/boiler.htm

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains pressure,
mine is ok but with hard water)

Yup, you can't generally pump mains water, and the hot will be at mains
pressure.

You can't pump mains water, unless you have special permission.

John Rumm wrote:
Bazza wrote:

I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water.
I am sure lots of you have experience of these but I have a few
questions.

You get what you pay for to an extent. So go with decent brands and at
the higher end of the power specs on the boiler and it will do what you
want.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system,
this is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly
straight forward replacement.

The procedure needs a little planning, but is not that difficult. When I
did mine it went something like:

http://www.internode.co.uk/loft/boiler.htm

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

Yup, you can't generally pump mains water, and the hot will be at mains
pressure.

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Which makes life simpler. If you are replacing the shower anyway you
don't even need to worry about the shower feed particularly.

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing,
has this improved on recent models?

See Ed'd boiler choice FAQ,

Have you got a link for this?

he spells out many of the details that tend
to influence the reliability etc. Also remember to compare like with
like - you can't buy a basic cast iron lump with minimal electronics any
more so there is no point comparing a combi with that.

A modern condensing boiler designed to be one from the outset (rather
than a old design that has been reworked to be a condenser later) will
tend to be better.

Any recommendations

Reasonable starting point with links to the other FAQs etc:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Heating_Design

Thanks John for your input, as the new boiler will have to last for the
next 20 years+? I will do a proper job and not go with the cheapest
available.
Useful information

"Bazza" wrote in message
...
John Rumm wrote:
Bazza wrote:

I have nowhere else I can put the tank so I was thinking of a combi
boiler system for the rads and hot water.
I am sure lots of you have experience of these but I have a few
questions.

You get what you pay for to an extent. So go with decent brands and at
the higher end of the power specs on the boiler and it will do what you
want.

At present I have a 20 year old Wickes boiler 45k btu(works fine apart
from replacing the pilot stat every few years) on a Y plan system, this
is hung on the wall in the kitchen, would a combi be a fairly straight
forward replacement.

The procedure needs a little planning, but is not that difficult. When I
did mine it went something like:

http://www.internode.co.uk/loft/boiler.htm

The present shower over the bath is a pumped system, can the pump be
dispensed with when using a combi (understand combi's use mains
pressure, mine is ok but with hard water)

Yup, you can't generally pump mains water, and the hot will be at mains
pressure.

The loft tank only feeds the hot water cylinder and the power shower,
all cold taps, appliances and WC's are mains fed

Which makes life simpler. If you are replacing the shower anyway you
don't even need to worry about the shower feed particularly.

Combi(condensing) boilers used to have a bad reputation for failing, has
this improved on recent models?

See Ed'd boiler choice FAQ,

Have you got a link for this?

It is about 20 years out of date. Just ask me.

Thanks John for your input, as the new boiler will have to last for the
next 20 years+? I will do a proper job and not go with the cheapest
available.

Good quality combis will last 20 years and more.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Bazza wrote:

can the pump be dispensed with when using a combi

Yup, you can't generally pump mains water

You can't pump mains water, unless you have special permission.

You have a unique way of adding value to a conversation dribble.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Have you warned SWMBO that a
combination boiler is likely to take
two to three times as long to fill the bath?

Which model do you refer? Many can fill baths faster than storage systems.

If you cold water main can supply water that fast...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Have you warned SWMBO that a
combination boiler is likely to take
two to three times as long to fill the bath?

Which model do you refer? Many can fill baths faster than storage
systems.

If you cold water main can supply water that fast...

You got that right.

John Rumm wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Bazza wrote:

can the pump be dispensed with when using a combi

Yup, you can't generally pump mains water

You can't pump mains water, unless you have special permission.

You have a unique way of adding value to a conversation dribble.


Mmm. That means every single electric shower is illegal.

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:22:48 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

John Rumm wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Bazza wrote:

can the pump be dispensed with when using a combi

Yup, you can't generally pump mains water

You can't pump mains water, unless you have special permission.

You have a unique way of adding value to a conversation dribble.


Mmm. That means every single electric shower is illegal.

Whilst our resident "quack" has abysmally low Signal:Noise in his posts,
in this matter he is right, IMHO.
Electric showers are quite legal and I'm at a loss to know why you think
they aren't, the ones which connect to the mains (the majority) don't
contain pumps.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html