Lidl Crowborough is selling electronic spirit levels @£25 (lartge box
full seen on Saturday). They appear to be robust and have the 2
normal vials at 90deg. Tucked in at one end is an electronic unit
with LED screen powered by 9v battery. No instructions, of course.

Strongly suspect wise counsel would whisper 'leave on shelf', even so
several Qs arise:

1. How do the levels work?

2. The electronics has a 'calibrate' button - how does that work?
Guessing - is the electronic section calibrated by setting the level
on a flat surface as shown by the vials and then pressing calibrate?
Or is it something more sophisticated than that.

3. After calibration does the electronic unit have its own level
detector which takes over independant of the vials?

4. Box shows supplier to Lidl is Paget Trading Ltd of Woodrow London.
Searched web to try to discover more info about the levels but drew a
blank. Internet searches reveal other people trying to contact this
firm! Is it bust? Where are these levels manufactured?

5. What are its pukka competitors?


It looks stout, so it could be a reasonable purchase provided the
vials can be reset and the electronic unit calibrated / validated,
but.....any knowledge or opinions out there?

TIA

In article .com, jim
says...
Lidl Crowborough is selling electronic spirit levels @£25 (lartge box
full seen on Saturday). They appear to be robust and have the 2
normal vials at 90deg. Tucked in at one end is an electronic unit
with LED screen powered by 9v battery. No instructions, of course.

Strongly suspect wise counsel would whisper 'leave on shelf', even so
several Qs arise:

1. How do the levels work?

2. The electronics has a 'calibrate' button - how does that work?
Guessing - is the electronic section calibrated by setting the level
on a flat surface as shown by the vials and then pressing calibrate?
Or is it something more sophisticated than that.

3. After calibration does the electronic unit have its own level
detector which takes over independant of the vials?

4. Box shows supplier to Lidl is Paget Trading Ltd of Woodrow London.
Searched web to try to discover more info about the levels but drew a
blank. Internet searches reveal other people trying to contact this
firm! Is it bust? Where are these levels manufactured?

5. What are its pukka competitors?


It looks stout, so it could be a reasonable purchase provided the
vials can be reset and the electronic unit calibrated / validated,
but.....any knowledge or opinions out there?

TIA


I don't know about the Lidl one, but I bought a Black and Decker
"LaserPlus" and was very disappointed with it. I forget what tolerance
it was supposed to have in terms of vertical tilt error per horizontal
metre, but mine was several millimetres out and with no means of
adjustment.
Trouble was I bought it in the UK to use here in France, so taking it
back is not an option.

The error came to light after fixing a batten supposedly level by the
B&D, but when I put the machine on the other side of the timber, the
level was showing way out - they could not both be correct.

I subsequently tested it by first holding it one way around then the
other. The tilt is quite clear. Great if you want wonky shelves. It
turns out my old trusty bubble spirit level is more accurate. At least
you can turn it around and it still shows the same level.

--
David in Normandy.
(The free MicroPlanet Gravity newsreader is great for eliminating
rubbish and cross-posts)

jim wrote:

4. Box shows supplier to Lidl is Paget Trading Ltd of Woodrow London.
Searched web to try to discover more info about the levels but drew a
blank. Internet searches reveal other people trying to contact this
firm! Is it bust? Where are these levels manufactured?

Found via TÜV Rheinland certificates...

Paget Trading Ltd. 1 Raffles Place
No. 21-01 OUB Centre
Singapore 048616
Tel +49 (0)2233 379953
Fax +49 (0)2233 373159
Mr. Willy Clev

Paget Services http://www.impo-global.de

The UK address is at Woodrow Business Centre - a warehouse.

Paget Trading Ltd.
c/o Paget Services
65-66 Woodrow
UK London SE18 5DH
Tel.: +44 1525-715-937
Fax: +44 1525-714-083

Above numbers are a mail/contact forwarding service.

--
Adrian C

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 02:44:57 -0700 Jim wrote :
4. Box shows supplier to Lidl is Paget Trading Ltd of Woodrow London.
Searched web to try to discover more info about the levels but drew a
blank. Internet searches reveal other people trying to contact this
firm! Is it bust? Where are these levels manufactured?

At a quick look on http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/WebCHeck/fastrack/
I couldn't find a company of this name. It might just mean it's a
company registered outside the UK

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

David in Normandy expressed precisely :
I subsequently tested it by first holding it one way around then the
other. The tilt is quite clear. Great if you want wonky shelves. It
turns out my old trusty bubble spirit level is more accurate. At least
you can turn it around and it still shows the same level.

That is the standard method of checking any level, to turn it round on
the same surface to check for errors. It doesn't give any clues to its
basic accuracy - to check for that, you can place a bit of thick card
under one end and see how far the bubble moves.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On 2007-10-10 10:44:57 +0100, jim said:

Lidl Crowborough is selling electronic spirit levels @£25 (lartge box
full seen on Saturday).

Next to the bananas?

They appear to be robust and have the 2
normal vials at 90deg. Tucked in at one end is an electronic unit
with LED screen powered by 9v battery. No instructions, of course.

Of course.



Strongly suspect wise counsel would whisper 'leave on shelf',

Any reasonable counsel would shout that since everything else in the
store is cheap crap why would that be any different?



even so
several Qs arise:

1. How do the levels work?

2. The electronics has a 'calibrate' button - how does that work?
Guessing - is the electronic section calibrated by setting the level
on a flat surface as shown by the vials and then pressing calibrate?
Or is it something more sophisticated than that.

3. After calibration does the electronic unit have its own level
detector which takes over independant of the vials?

4. Box shows supplier to Lidl is Paget Trading Ltd of Woodrow London.

OK, so this is a firm that unpacks containers arriving from Shanghai.



Searched web to try to discover more info about the levels but drew a
blank. Internet searches reveal other people trying to contact this
firm! Is it bust? Where are these levels manufactured?

5. What are its pukka competitors?


It looks stout, so it could be a reasonable purchase provided the
vials can be reset and the electronic unit calibrated / validated,
but.....any knowledge or opinions out there?

TIA

Those are big "ifs" and it depends on whether you want something
vaguely decent or to waste £25 on goodness knows what.

If you are looking for a worthwhile product then there are a selection
from manufacturers such as Leica, Stabila, Bosch etc.

Here's a selection.

http://www.yorksurvey.co.uk/products/51laser.htm

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:39:12 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


http://www.yorksurvey.co.uk/products/51laser.htm

That site barely works with Firefox...

--
Frank Erskine

On 2007-10-10 22:03:25 +0100, Frank Erskine
said:

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:39:12 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


http://www.yorksurvey.co.uk/products/51laser.htm

That site barely works with Firefox...

It barely works at all but they will send a catalogue. They are in
rural Yorkshire, after all, so one can't have high expectations.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:12:52 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2007-10-10 22:03:25 +0100, Frank Erskine
said:

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:39:12 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


http://www.yorksurvey.co.uk/products/51laser.htm

That site barely works with Firefox...

. They are in
rural Yorkshire, after all, so one can't have high expectations.

Well that's more or less what I was thinking. I'm surprised they have
electric light, never mind computers.

--
Frank Erskine

On 2007-10-10 22:25:04 +0100, Frank Erskine
said:

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:12:52 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2007-10-10 22:03:25 +0100, Frank Erskine
said:

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:39:12 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


http://www.yorksurvey.co.uk/products/51laser.htm

That site barely works with Firefox...

. They are in
rural Yorkshire, after all, so one can't have high expectations.

Well that's more or less what I was thinking. I'm surprised they have
electric light, never mind computers.

Exactly, and th'only running water is what goes down 't' walls.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:12:52 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

They are in rural Yorkshire, after all,

So's the British Library !

so one can't have high expectations.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:12:52 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

They are in rural Yorkshire, after all,

So's the British Library !

so one can't have high expectations.

I can race round it at speed!

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 02:44:57 -0700, jim
wrote:

IMHE, these things are OK so long as you don't need something to be
accurately level.

If you want a consistent incline, such as for setting out drainage, then
they're quick and convenient at delivering an acceptable accuracy.

If you want "level", then you typically need better accuracy. They're
not up to this.

1. How do the levels work?

IMHE, there are lots of methods in detail, but they all use a swinging
pendulum to establish a local datum. There's then a sensor to read the
offset of this from the level's body. Older high-accuracy models used
an optical scale, cheaper ones use a non-contact inductive or capacitive
sensor. These have linearity problems on larger angles.

On 2007-10-11 00:21:45 +0100, Andy Dingley said:

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:12:52 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

They are in rural Yorkshire, after all,

So's the British Library !

Presumably to avoid any risk of theft........ :-)




so one can't have high expectations.

On 2007-10-11 11:14:39 +0100, Owain said:

Andy Hall wrote:
... they will send a catalogue.

A paper catalogue, by post? How old fashioned.

Owain

Well it is Yorkshire. It's commendable that they can manage to produce one.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:14:39 +0100, Owain
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
... they will send a catalogue.

A paper catalogue, by post?

Post? What's that?

--
Frank Erskine

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:14:39 +0100, Owain
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
... they will send a catalogue.

A paper catalogue, by post?

Post? What's that?

It's what holds fences up round here. And no, not robbing pawn-shops either.

cheers,
clive

On 2007-10-11 17:19:23 +0100, Owain said:

Frank Erskine wrote:
... they will send a catalogue.
A paper catalogue, by post?
Post? What's that?

Something Mr Hall professes not to use

Owain

Not quite. It's used (normally) once a month to deliver documents to
my accountant. This week it went by courier firm and will do in
future, so that's another `£60 per annum of lost business to RM. I
don't have time to waste on these people. They either need to wise up
to commercial reality or they'll all be on the street. I don't mind
which.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Not quite. It's used (normally) once a month to deliver documents to my
accountant. This week it went by courier firm and will do in future, so
that's another `£60 per annum of lost business to RM. I don't have time
to waste on these people. They either need to wise up to commercial
reality or they'll all be on the street. I don't mind which.

Did your wife run off with a postie at some point? It would explain your
almost rabid dislike of them...

cheers,
clive

On 2007-10-11 19:25:56 +0100, "Clive George" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

Not quite. It's used (normally) once a month to deliver documents to
my accountant. This week it went by courier firm and will do in
future, so that's another `£60 per annum of lost business to RM. I
don't have time to waste on these people. They either need to wise up
to commercial reality or they'll all be on the street. I don't mind
which.

Did your wife run off with a postie at some point? It would explain
your almost rabid dislike of them...

cheers,
clive

No not at all. I don't dislike individuals, per sec, but think about
what it has become.


- Ex state owned "business" where the middle management believes that
it is still in some kind of cotton wool protected environment and hands
out policy for execution at the customer facing end that is sheer
nonsense. What other business keeps its customers standing in the
pouring rain for 30 mins in order to have the privilege of doing
business with it? A complete nonsense.

- A demotivated workforce that is desperately underpaid and which knows
that probably 80% of what it delivers goes straight in the bin.

- A few "leaders" of said workforce who still believe that the state
should provide. It doesn't, won't and shouldn't. Rather sadly, the
workforce follows this, including withdrawal of labour, because there
is nothing else to go for.
It won't get them anywhere because the cupboard is close to bare.

- Some idealists who still believe in the idea of universal services
funded from taxation. That was past its sell-by date by 1970, and
has no relevance in today's world at all, especially not in the area of
delivery services.

- A customer base who still expects something for practically nothing.
34p (or whatever it is now) for a standard item of first class mail.
Where does that come from? It's ridiculously low. If an item of
mail doesn't justify a delivery charge of at least a pound, probably
two, then it has too little value to justify sending. This is about
the price range for the current Recorded Signed For service. That
should be the bare minimum. What is the point in sending something if
you don't really know whether it got there or not? Waste of time. If
it doesn't justify that, then it's not worth having. Above this
product there is Special Delivery in the £4-5 range which at least
offers an attempt at a delivery time.

The sensible thing to do would be to dump all the low priced services
(i.e. anything less than a pound) and to see what proportion of
customers will pay the more realistic market rate and which won't do
so. That would identify what is the sound and reasonably sustainable
business and to dump the bull****.

This would reduce the workforce of RM, but that is untenable anyway,
and would provide a more sustainable long term business that can
support its workforce properly.

What clearly is not going to work is a low ASP customer base and a
workforce with unrealistic expectations.

Hence my point.

I would buy the 34p product if I could be assured of timely delivery
and knowing that it arrived. That can't be done for 34p and as soon
as there is any uncertainty because of industrial action, that's it,
game's off.

I have bought the £4-5 service because generally it works OK and there
is tracking. The value of what I send is not intrinsically great,
but would cost a fair amount in terms of time if I have to replicate
it. Generally that's a reasonable bet and has worked. Again, with
the uncertainty of delivery, I am not going to waste my time on it in
future. It's cheaper in terms of actual cost and time to use a taxi
or motor bike courier.

In the end, and coming back to the point, if a product or service is
worth having, it's worth paying for. Otherwise forget it.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

What other business keeps its customers standing in the pouring rain for
30 mins in order to have the privilege of doing business with it?

The entertainment business? Though I've never had the experience of your
post office - IME they're rather better. Ie I've never had to queue in the
pouring rain like you have, and nor do I expect to have to do so in the
future, despite living in an area where there's more rain than you get.

- A customer base who still expects something for practically nothing.
34p (or whatever it is now) for a standard item of first class mail.
Where does that come from? It's ridiculously low. If an item of mail
doesn't justify a delivery charge of at least a pound, probably two, then
it has too little value to justify sending.

That's assuming all post is for business purposes. Consider what's sent
around the busiest time of year for RM. Also postcards still exist, and work
well. And that's just my particularly restricted use. I don't want
signed-for delivery on that sort of thing, I just want something reasonably
priced and reliable - which IME we have.

cheers,
clive

On 2007-10-11 21:38:15 +0100, "Clive George" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

What other business keeps its customers standing in the pouring rain
for 30 mins in order to have the privilege of doing business with it?

The entertainment business? Though I've never had the experience of
your post office - IME they're rather better. Ie I've never had to
queue in the pouring rain like you have, and nor do I expect to have to
do so in the future, despite living in an area where there's more rain
than you get.

I took the trouble to email them and received a reply from some junior
dweeb who clearly only had a page of standard answers, a blindfold and
a pin; because I got a completely stupid answer. I mailed them back
and asked for a more considered reply and asked what they were going to
do. The answer was well wrapped in bureaucratic red tape as befits a
government department. I gave up at that point.





- A customer base who still expects something for practically nothing.
34p (or whatever it is now) for a standard item of first class mail.
Where does that come from? It's ridiculously low. If an item of
mail doesn't justify a delivery charge of at least a pound, probably
two, then it has too little value to justify sending.

That's assuming all post is for business purposes. Consider what's sent
around the busiest time of year for RM. Also postcards still exist, and
work well. And that's just my particularly restricted use. I don't want
signed-for delivery on that sort of thing, I just want something
reasonably priced and reliable - which IME we have.

cheers,
clive

Yes, all of this is lovely but if you take the revenue from that piece
of business and look at the cost of implementation, does it pay?
I'm sure it doesn't, which is one reason why RM is having trouble
making ends meet. Their mix of products isn't priced correctly.

When you have that situation, there are only five ways that I can think
of to fix it.

- tell the employees that they can have less, not more money. I
don't think that that will work

- withdraw the service. You say that you want it.

- increase the price of the basic service. There is little extra
cost in securing a signature at the door in comparison with the
logistics cost, so the real cost is closer to £1 than 34p. Would you
be willing to pay £1 per item?

- subsidise the 34p service from higher value services. Won't work
because it's easy for others to compete without giving subsidies.

- subsidise from taxation. We came from there and it didn't work then.

The Christmas argument doesn't fly either. If you increase the volume
of something that makes low margin or a loss but has a requirement to
increase the cost base, it only makes it worse.

All of this stuff is childrens' business studies. The fact that RM
hasn't worked it out yet, indicates to me that they never will.
That's why I make the point that we might as well move directly to the
end game and shut them down. As it is, all that is happening is a
rather long, painful and pathetic death.

On 2007-10-12 00:12:33 +0100, Tony Bryer said:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:01:09 +0100 Andy Hall wrote :
- A demotivated workforce that is desperately underpaid and which
knows that probably 80% of what it delivers goes straight in the bin.

One would like to think that they know that it's this mail that keeps
them in work. And one presumes that the businesses who send it do so
because it makes them money and is considered a more effective way of
marketing than the alternatives.

Except that it's a circular argument. Would the businesses think the
same if the price was at a more viable level?




- A customer base who still expects something for practically nothing.
34p (or whatever it is now) for a standard item of first class mail.
Where does that come from? It's ridiculously low.

It's ridiculously low in rural areas (considering the likely cost of
collecting *and* delivering mail) but urban-urban mail makes money,
even more so when it comes from businesses like us who send virtually
everything with printed and postcoded addresses and pay for our postage
online.

But does it for granny's book token to little Willy?




But the one party you can rely on not to interfere with the
universal service obligation is the Conservatives so nothing will change
here.

There's nothing in principle wrong with having this as long as it is
priced correctly. If the postman are not being paid enough - and I
tend to agree, that they are not, then it means that either there's not
enough money going in at the front end or it's being wasted in the
middle, possibly both.


We spend about £3,500 p.a. on postage and, current strike apart, reckon
it to be a mighty good service. The strike is costing us serious money
though, some of which we may not pick up later.

I suppose it depends on what you are doing. For example, if you
are sending out a mailshot to 1000 recipients in the expectation of a
5% response anyway, it may not matter if some go adrift. If it's a
software update to customers on a contract then those that don't
receive it may be dogged off and not renew next year and you might not
know. Perhaps there's a way around that.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:01:09 +0100 Andy Hall wrote :
- A demotivated workforce that is desperately underpaid and which
knows that probably 80% of what it delivers goes straight in the bin.

One would like to think that they know that it's this mail that keeps
them in work. And one presumes that the businesses who send it do so
because it makes them money and is considered a more effective way of
marketing than the alternatives.

- A customer base who still expects something for practically nothing.
34p (or whatever it is now) for a standard item of first class mail.
Where does that come from? It's ridiculously low.

It's ridiculously low in rural areas (considering the likely cost of
collecting *and* delivering mail) but urban-urban mail makes money,
even more so when it comes from businesses like us who send virtually
everything with printed and postcoded addresses and pay for our postage
online. But the one party you can rely on not to interfere with the
universal service obligation is the Conservatives so nothing will change
here.

We spend about £3,500 p.a. on postage and, current strike apart, reckon
it to be a mighty good service. The strike is costing us serious money
though, some of which we may not pick up later.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

- increase the price of the basic service. There is little extra cost
in securing a signature at the door in comparison with the logistics cost,
so the real cost is closer to £1 than 34p. Would you be willing to pay
£1 per item?

Um, there's quite a large increase in cost. Consider an urban round - unlike
couriers, the postie will have mail for most of the street, so the
difference between "in the letterbox" and "ring, wait, get signature, ..."
is significant. A courier doing say 20 drops is rather different to a postie
doing a few hundred, and the cost reflects that.

Yes, the post model relies on lots of people using it.

Is it just RM you hate, or are all the equivalents in other countries also
on your hit list?

cheers,
clive

On 2007-10-12 00:31:14 +0100, "Clive George" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

- increase the price of the basic service. There is little extra
cost in securing a signature at the door in comparison with the
logistics cost, so the real cost is closer to £1 than 34p. Would you
be willing to pay £1 per item?

Um, there's quite a large increase in cost. Consider an urban round -
unlike couriers, the postie will have mail for most of the street, so
the difference between "in the letterbox" and "ring, wait, get
signature, ..." is significant. A courier doing say 20 drops is rather
different to a postie doing a few hundred, and the cost reflects that.

Yes, the post model relies on lots of people using it.

Is it just RM you hate, or are all the equivalents in other countries
also on your hit list?

cheers,
clive

No, it's generic I think.

The US Postal Service can't even manage to provide tracking for an item
which has been sent using a premium tracking service that they claim to
offer. I've had three items over a couple of years that go missing
for about three weeks and then there's a mangled postcard from RM
wanting me to go to the post office to pay the import VAT, paying 60p
parking and waiting in the rain for half an hour. No sign of any
tracking to this day.
They collude in their incompetence.

Contrast this to Fedex and DHL.

I can have something sent by Fedex from the U.S. using my account so
that I control the method and the shipping costs. I get a tracking
number by email the moment it's picked up and I can either look on the
web or receive emails as it passes each transit point. If there's a
delay for any reason, I get a notification immediately. I will get
delivery to me two days after shipping - no messing about with post
offices. An invoice for the shipping and import VAT arrives a few
days later. If I'm sending something, I have the same facilities
and I can also get a proof of delivery in the form of name and scanned
signature downloadable from their web site as a PDF.

The theoretical cost is greater than USPS+RM but not by a great deal.
The practical cost including all the chasing of these people to do what
they say they will do is far greater than that difference.

In article , Andy Hall wrote:

- increase the price of the basic service. There is little extra
cost in securing a signature at the door in comparison with the
logistics cost, so the real cost is closer to £1 than 34p. Would you
be willing to pay £1 per item?


Are you seriously considering that every item of post should be tracked and
signed for??

There is no one at home here just about every weekday yet most days we have
post of some sort. Do you suggest I have to go into town, pay parking and
collect this? So instead of a daily service I get a less convenient, weekly
service (or may I should drive to town everyday?)

I guess it's less of an issue if you have servants to send

Darren

On 2007-10-12 21:51:21 +0100, (dmc) said:

In article , Andy Hall wrote:

- increase the price of the basic service. There is little extra
cost in securing a signature at the door in comparison with the
logistics cost, so the real cost is closer to £1 than 34p. Would you
be willing to pay £1 per item?


Are you seriously considering that every item of post should be tracked and
signed for??

That was just to get your attention. The real point is that the
minimum price needs to be nearer to a pound than 34p.


There is no one at home here just about every weekday yet most days we have
post of some sort. Do you suggest I have to go into town, pay parking and
collect this?

Royal Mail does if there is VAT to pay.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:01:09 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

What other business keeps its customers standing in the
pouring rain for 30 mins in order to have the privilege of doing
business with it? A complete nonsense.

But you aren't customers, you're merely addressees (I've had this one
out with them myself).

The person buying stamps is a customer. The person receiving it didn't
pay for the service personally, thus doesn't matter to the Royal Mail.
QED. You're lucky they bother to deliver it to you at all.

They either need to wise up to commercial reality or they'll all be on
the street. I don't mind which.

I agree with your first point, but not the second. I've got quite a soft
spot for the Royal Mail and I dearly wish for them to succeed and to
provide me with a competent service. However Consignia's management are,
by definition (implicit in the re-naming), clueless ****wits incapable
of carrying on the trade of whelk-based refreshment.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:23:18 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

However Consignia's management are,
by definition (implicit in the re-naming), clueless ****wits incapable
of carrying on the trade of whelk-based refreshment.

Consignia as a trading name hasn't existed for about five years!

--
Frank Erskine

On 2007-10-13 16:23:18 +0100, Andy Dingley said:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:01:09 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

What other business keeps its customers standing in the
pouring rain for 30 mins in order to have the privilege of doing
business with it? A complete nonsense.

But you aren't customers, you're merely addressees (I've had this one
out with them myself).

The person buying stamps is a customer. The person receiving it didn't
pay for the service personally, thus doesn't matter to the Royal Mail.
QED. You're lucky they bother to deliver it to you at all.

Oh, sure. I figured that one out. The trouble is that wihout
tracking, there is no way for their version of the customer or anybody
else's for that matter, to determine whether or not they did what was
paid for.

If I still wrote any cheques, the old line that the cheque's in the
mail would be a very useful one.


They either need to wise up to commercial reality or they'll all be on
the street. I don't mind which.

I agree with your first point, but not the second. I've got quite a soft
spot for the Royal Mail and I dearly wish for them to succeed and to
provide me with a competent service.

I would too, if I didn't believe that it's already too late for them.
The opportunities have been there and not taken on countless occasions.


However Consignia's management are,
by definition (implicit in the re-naming), clueless ****wits incapable
of carrying on the trade of whelk-based refreshment.

I don't disagree with you there either.

Peston's blog on the BBC News site gives, I feel a reasonably balanced
commentary about the situation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/

The most telling point is that both sides have been titting around for
months, apparently wih each side being clueless about what the other
wants to achieve. This was patently obvious weeks ago and so it
becomes a face saving exercise in the end.

The main problem is that there is not enough money in what it does to
support its staff and was why I made the point that the entry level
should be £1. If something is worth sending at all, it's worth that.
Imagine why the postmen want to continue to have an early start.
For most it's because they need second jobs on the cash market just
like firemen.

It's also one of the main reasons that I believe that it's a doomed
operation at best likely to end up with more nimble competitors forever
nipping at its heels.

Euthanasia would be the kindest option, rather like the Final Trip to
the Vet for a much loved old pet.
Frankly, keeping it alive is rather like keeping said old pet alive
beyond what is in its best interests and I feel that this is only
happening because of sentimentality for a "service" that doesn't really
exist and hasn't long before it had any competition. Of course,
nothing will be done. It will be left to fester in its own way
becoming more and more untenable until it becomes a museum piece.

The NHS, of course, is exactly the same mix of incorrect expectation
all round, incompetent management and no clear direction. That
should be shut down as well, but when one has an organisation that is
third in size to the Chinese army and the Indian railway in terms of
people that it pays, then that will take a little longer.

Either way, I don't expect to see Royal Mail around in any form
recognisable to us today within 10 years and the health service in a
generation. Sooner or later people realise that while having soft
spots may be a good thing, in the end reality has to set in.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:13:07 +0100, Frank Erskine
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:23:18 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

However Consignia's management are,
by definition (implicit in the re-naming), clueless ****wits incapable
of carrying on the trade of whelk-based refreshment.

Consignia as a trading name hasn't existed for about five years!

Possibly,

But the fact is they did make the change, which was presumably
meaningful and significant for them.

And now they are *still* in the clag.

DG

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 22:57:31 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2007-10-12 21:51:21 +0100, (dmc) said:

In article , Andy Hall wrote:

- increase the price of the basic service. There is little extra
cost in securing a signature at the door in comparison with the
logistics cost, so the real cost is closer to £1 than 34p. Would you
be willing to pay £1 per item?


Are you seriously considering that every item of post should be tracked and
signed for??

That was just to get your attention. The real point is that the
minimum price needs to be nearer to a pound than 34p.


Let's be fair to them, it's not the RM, their regulator won't let
them price themselves competitively in the market. So prices tend to
go up about 1p at a time.

We have a Pitney Bowes postage meter. Every price change invoves us
buying a new EPROM with the prices in a look-up table for 50 quid or
so. We were Right Royally pigged off when the price was put up by 1p
or so, then within just a few weeks another pricing scheme ( size /
thickness of envelopes) of was announced.


There is no one at home here just about every weekday yet most days we have
post of some sort. Do you suggest I have to go into town, pay parking and
collect this?

Royal Mail does if there is VAT to pay.


DG

On 2007-10-15 21:59:25 +0100, Derek Geldard said:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:13:07 +0100, Frank Erskine
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:23:18 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

However Consignia's management are,
by definition (implicit in the re-naming), clueless ****wits incapable
of carrying on the trade of whelk-based refreshment.

Consignia as a trading name hasn't existed for about five years!

Possibly,

But the fact is they did make the change, which was presumably
meaningful and significant for them.

And now they are *still* in the clag.

DG

It's a doomed operation, and the only question now left is how long
will that take.....

I had to smirk when I read the following on the BBC News web site about
the union membership ballot.

"Postal workers would vote on the deal's conditions by post"

"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
...

We have a Pitney Bowes postage meter. Every price change invoves us
buying a new EPROM with the prices in a look-up table for 50 quid or
so. We were Right Royally pigged off when the price was put up by 1p
or so, then within just a few weeks another pricing scheme ( size /
thickness of envelopes) of was announced.

You could chuck it and use a label printer to print your own postage and
addresses.
Then you won't need to buy another EPROM.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:48:27 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

I agree with your first point, but not the second. I've got quite a soft
spot for the Royal Mail and I dearly wish for them to succeed and to
provide me with a competent service.

I would too, if I didn't believe that it's already too late for them.
The opportunities have been there and not taken on countless occasions.


However Consignia's management are,
by definition (implicit in the re-naming), clueless ****wits incapable
of carrying on the trade of whelk-based refreshment.

I don't disagree with you there either.


My sister runs a little jewellers shop, it's not Tiffany's or Mappin &
Webb, but she does repairs.

She also has a degree in law.

What gets up her trumpet is the fact that it costs about £0.40 to send
a repaired bracelet back to a customer, but if you want the RM to
guarantee they/their employees won't pinch it, it costs about a fiver,
which is within the same order of magnitude as the cost of a simple
repair.

Any other organisation in the country (or so she says) would have to
accept responsibility for goods entrusted to their care, but not the
RM.

I'm not so sure she's right haulage contractors in general tend to
have terms which limit their liability to according to the weight of
your consignement in proportion to the weight and value of a trainload
of ****. :-((


The NHS, of course, is exactly the same mix of incorrect expectation
all round, incompetent management and no clear direction. That
should be shut down as well, but when one has an organisation that is
third in size to the Chinese army and the Indian railway in terms of
people that it pays, then that will take a little longer.

Either way, I don't expect to see Royal Mail around in any form
recognisable to us today within 10 years and the health service in a
generation. Sooner or later people realise that while having soft
spots may be a good thing, in the end reality has to set in.


DG

On 2007-10-15 22:10:32 +0100, Derek Geldard said:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 22:57:31 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2007-10-12 21:51:21 +0100, (dmc) said:

In article , Andy Hall wrote:

- increase the price of the basic service. There is little extra
cost in securing a signature at the door in comparison with the
logistics cost, so the real cost is closer to £1 than 34p. Would you
be willing to pay £1 per item?


Are you seriously considering that every item of post should be tracked and
signed for??

That was just to get your attention. The real point is that the
minimum price needs to be nearer to a pound than 34p.


Let's be fair to them, it's not the RM, their regulator won't let
them price themselves competitively in the market. So prices tend to
go up about 1p at a time.

OK, so the regulator needs to be educated about market reality.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:16:54 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:


"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
.. .

We have a Pitney Bowes postage meter. Every price change invoves us
buying a new EPROM with the prices in a look-up table for 50 quid or
so. We were Right Royally pigged off when the price was put up by 1p
or so, then within just a few weeks another pricing scheme ( size /
thickness of envelopes) of was announced.

You could chuck it and use a label printer to print your own postage and
addresses.
Then you won't need to buy another EPROM.

It was on a 5 year contract. Which had to include "Maintenance", (RM
rules) a hangover from the days of mechanical postage meters, not
that the "Maintenance" guy ever did anything even then. Now it's all
electronic the user does all the maintenance such as changing the ink
cartridge which IIRC were horribly expensive. But we still pay a
quarterly bill for "Maintenance".

The contract runs out at the end of the month when we will revert to
postage stamps which we will buy at COSTCO at a discount. :-))

BTW if you are referring to the RM "print your own stamps" scheme :

That is also a Pitney Bowes scheme.

*NO THANK YOU*

;-)

DG

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:16:38 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2007-10-15 21:59:25 +0100, Derek Geldard said:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:13:07 +0100, Frank Erskine
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:23:18 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

However Consignia's management are,
by definition (implicit in the re-naming), clueless ****wits incapable
of carrying on the trade of whelk-based refreshment.

Consignia as a trading name hasn't existed for about five years!

Possibly,

But the fact is they did make the change, which was presumably
meaningful and significant for them.

And now they are *still* in the clag.

DG

It's a doomed operation, and the only question now left is how long
will that take.....

What puzzles me is that RM realise that they are facing increasing
competition, yet they _reduce_ their service. I walked past a post box
the other day; there was a sticker attached saying that after 28 Oct
there will be no more collections on Sundays or Bank Holidays.

Surely if they want to outdo competition they should be having several
collections every day.

I have a facsimile of a Year Book for 1902 which indicates at least
four house deliveries every day.

And I remember that even in the 1960s you could post a letter at up to
9.00pm here in Sunderland and it would be delivered in, say, London,
the next morning.

--
Frank Erskine

On 2007-10-15 22:27:23 +0100, Derek Geldard said:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:48:27 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

I agree with your first point, but not the second. I've got quite a soft
spot for the Royal Mail and I dearly wish for them to succeed and to
provide me with a competent service.

I would too, if I didn't believe that it's already too late for them.
The opportunities have been there and not taken on countless occasions.


However Consignia's management are,
by definition (implicit in the re-naming), clueless ****wits incapable
of carrying on the trade of whelk-based refreshment.

I don't disagree with you there either.


My sister runs a little jewellers shop, it's not Tiffany's or Mappin &
Webb, but she does repairs.

She also has a degree in law.

What gets up her trumpet is the fact that it costs about £0.40 to send
a repaired bracelet back to a customer, but if you want the RM to
guarantee they/their employees won't pinch it, it costs about a fiver,
which is within the same order of magnitude as the cost of a simple
repair.

Any other organisation in the country (or so she says) would have to
accept responsibility for goods entrusted to their care, but not the
RM.

I'm not so sure she's right haulage contractors in general tend to
have terms which limit their liability to according to the weight of
your consignement in proportion to the weight and value of a trainload
of ****. :-((


So here the situation is really that the repair costs £10 including
shipping and insurance.

There are plenty of products where the transport forms the lion's share
of the price at the end, so 50/50 is fairly good.