"bicarbonate of soda" and "soda crystals" -- are they the same thing/
product?

In article . com,
Dot Net Developer writes:
"bicarbonate of soda" and "soda crystals" -- are they the same thing/
product?

No.
"bicarbonate of soda" is Sodium Hydroden Carbonate.
"soda crystals" are Sodium Carbonate, IIRC.
"caustic soda" is Sodium Hydroxide.

Every few decades, chemists decide to change the way they name
compounds, so I might not be using the names taught in chemistry
lessons today. (Do they even have chemistry lessons today?)

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article . com,
Dot Net Developer writes:

"bicarbonate of soda" and "soda crystals" -- are they the same thing/
product?

No.
"bicarbonate of soda" is Sodium Hydroden Carbonate.

used for raising cakes & some bread, but is not baking powder

"soda crystals" are Sodium Carbonate, IIRC.

washing soda, a degreaser

"caustic soda" is Sodium Hydroxide.

very strong degreaser for unblocking drains and dissolving human
remains.


Every few decades, chemists decide to change the way they name
compounds, so I might not be using the names taught in chemistry
lessons today. (Do they even have chemistry lessons today?)

Probably now questions like 'how do you feel about the politics of
chemical E101'


NT

wrote:

very strong degreaser for unblocking drains and dissolving human
remains.

And making soap.


Probably now questions like 'how do you feel about the politics of
chemical E101'

That's vitamin B2. Good for you.


--
Grunff

On 6 Oct, 13:10, wrote:
"bicarbonate of soda" is Sodium Hydroden Carbonate.

used for raising cakes & some bread, but is not baking powder

Can it also be used as a general purpose cleaner (diluted in water)?


"soda crystals" are Sodium Carbonate, IIRC.

washing soda, a degreaser

Can I use this (diluted) for - cleaning inside fridge & on the sofa?
(Previously I used bicarbonate of soda.)

Thanks, regards, Robert

"Dot Net Developer" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 6 Oct, 13:10, wrote:
"bicarbonate of soda" is Sodium Hydroden Carbonate.

used for raising cakes & some bread, but is not baking powder

Can it also be used as a general purpose cleaner (diluted in water)?


"soda crystals" are Sodium Carbonate, IIRC.

washing soda, a degreaser

Can I use this (diluted) for - cleaning inside fridge & on the sofa?
(Previously I used bicarbonate of soda.)

Use bicarb like the instructions say,after all it works and is safe as it is
a food stuff.

In article .com,
Dot Net Developer writes:
On 6 Oct, 13:10, wrote:
"bicarbonate of soda" is Sodium Hydroden Carbonate.

used for raising cakes & some bread, but is not baking powder

Baking powder is Sodium Hydroden Carbonate diluted with flour
so that the tiny amounts required can be reasonably accurately
measured in a kitchen. In commercial cooking, it's used raw
without dilution as more accurate measuring is used. It slowly
neutralises acids from the other ingredients, reacting to produce
CO2 responsible for raising. Bread is normally raised by yeast
and sugar liberating CO2, but soda bread is an example where
Sodium Hydroden Carbonate reacting with milk is used instead.

Can it also be used as a general purpose cleaner (diluted in water)?

Yes. Particularly useful where you don't want any smell from
a perfumed cleaner, such as inside a fridge, and you don't
want any acid or alkali left behind. Sodium Hydroden Carbonate
is good for neutralising acids and alkalis. Another traditional
use in this area is for neutralising excess stomach acid.

"soda crystals" are Sodium Carbonate, IIRC.

washing soda, a degreaser

Can I use this (diluted) for - cleaning inside fridge & on the sofa?
(Previously I used bicarbonate of soda.)

Not sure. Why risk it -- sodium bicarbonate is so cheap?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 6 Oct, 16:50, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
Can it [bicarbonate of soda] also be used as a general purpose cleaner (diluted in water)?

Yes.

The penny's just dropped as to why I can't find bicarbonate of soda in
the supermarket - I've been looking in the cleaning products isle - I
need to go to the home baking products isle!

Grunff wrote:
wrote:

very strong degreaser for unblocking drains and dissolving human
remains.

And making soap.

Isn't that sodium hydroxide? Saponification ISTR.

Sodium bicarbonate is also used as a blast media.
http://www.natriumsodablast.com/soda...g.htm#benefits


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:
Grunff wrote:
wrote:

very strong degreaser for unblocking drains and dissolving human
remains.

And making soap.

Isn't that sodium hydroxide? Saponification ISTR.

You're responding out of context, because previous poster snipped
an important line.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:
Grunff wrote:
wrote:

very strong degreaser for unblocking drains and dissolving human
remains.

And making soap.

Isn't that sodium hydroxide? Saponification ISTR.

You're responding out of context, because previous poster snipped
an important line.

I thought the PP was refering to bicarbonate of soda as per the header?


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On 06 Oct 2007 15:50:56 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

Baking powder is Sodium Hydroden Carbonate diluted with flour
so that the tiny amounts required can be reasonably accurately
measured in a kitchen.

Baking powder is usually a mixture of Bicarbonate of Soda and
Tartaric Acid in the ratio 1:2.

Can it also be used as a general purpose cleaner (diluted in water)?

Bicarbonate of Soda can, baking powder cannot.

Yes. Particularly useful where you don't want any smell from
a perfumed cleaner, such as inside a fridge, and you don't
want any acid or alkali left behind.

Other than in fridges Bicarbonate of Soda isn't a terribly good
cleaning agent and (if bought in small tubs from a supermarket) quite
an expensive one.

"soda crystals" are Sodium Carbonate, IIRC.

washing soda, a degreaser

Can I use this (diluted) for - cleaning inside fridge & on the sofa?
(Previously I used bicarbonate of soda.)

I wouldn't use bicarbonate of soda on materials. Washing Soda is a
fairly good general purpose cleaning agent but not for use in situ on
fabrics.
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

The Medway Handyman wrote:

I thought the PP was refering to bicarbonate of soda as per the header?

No, I was referring to sodium hydroxide, my snipping was poor.

It went:



"caustic soda" is Sodium Hydroxide.

very strong degreaser for unblocking drains and dissolving human
remains.

Me: and making soap.



--
Grunff

Grunff wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

I thought the PP was refering to bicarbonate of soda as per the
header?

No, I was referring to sodium hydroxide, my snipping was poor.

It went:



"caustic soda" is Sodium Hydroxide.

very strong degreaser for unblocking drains and dissolving human
remains.

Me: and making soap.

Ah good! It wasn't the drink then :-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On 6 Oct, 22:05, Peter Parry wrote:
(various snips)
I wouldn't use bicarbonate of soda on materials.

Please explain. I've tried this (diluted in hot water, rubbed on with
tea towel on to sofa) with good surprisingly good results. I'll try
something else if there's either a problem with this, or a better
way. Thanks.

On 6 Oct, 22:05, Peter Parry wrote:

Other than in fridges Bicarbonate of Soda isn't a terribly good
cleaning agent and (if bought in small tubs from a supermarket) quite
an expensive one.

It's very good for removing burnt-on-stuff from saucepans. Leave a
paste of bicarb and water on for a few hours and bingo!

Ian

Dot Net Developer wrote:
On 6 Oct, 22:05, Peter Parry wrote:
(various snips)
I wouldn't use bicarbonate of soda on materials.

Please explain. I've tried this (diluted in hot water, rubbed on with
tea towel on to sofa) with good surprisingly good results. I'll try
something else if there's either a problem with this, or a better
way. Thanks.


Bicarb isn't very soluble in water, and is quite abrasive as a powder,
so I guess you might be slightly abrading your fabric. A carpet cleaner
might be more suitable as not all stains and dirt respond to alkalis

On 7 Oct, 12:51, Stuart Noble wrote:
Dot Net Developer wrote:
On 6 Oct, 22:05, Peter Parry wrote:
(various snips)
I wouldn't use bicarbonate of soda on materials.

Please explain. I've tried this (diluted in hot water, rubbed on with
tea towel on to sofa) with good surprisingly good results. I'll try
something else if there's either a problem with this, or a better
way. Thanks.

Bicarb isn't very soluble in water, and is quite abrasive as a powder,
so I guess you might be slightly abrading your fabric. A carpet cleaner
might be more suitable as not all stains and dirt respond to alkalis

Thanks & thanks also for all replies.

Dot Net Developer wrote:
On 6 Oct, 13:10, wrote:
"bicarbonate of soda" is Sodium Hydroden Carbonate.
used for raising cakes & some bread, but is not baking powder

Can it also be used as a general purpose cleaner (diluted in water)?

Not general purpose but very good for removing tannin from teapots and
cups. Mix to a paste with a little water.




--
djc

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:33:08 +0000, djc wrote:

Not general purpose but very good for removing tannin from teapots and
cups. Mix to a paste with a little water.

I wonder if bicarb is an ingredient of dishwasher detergent which is also
very good for degunking teapots and vacuum flasks?

--
John Stumbles

Question Authority

John Stumbles wrote:
On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:33:08 +0000, djc wrote:

Not general purpose but very good for removing tannin from teapots and
cups. Mix to a paste with a little water.

I wonder if bicarb is an ingredient of dishwasher detergent which is also
very good for degunking teapots and vacuum flasks?


So is Ribena oddly enough, it being acidic

In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
John Stumbles wrote:
On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:33:08 +0000, djc wrote:

Not general purpose but very good for removing tannin from teapots and
cups. Mix to a paste with a little water.

I wonder if bicarb is an ingredient of dishwasher detergent which is also
very good for degunking teapots and vacuum flasks?

So is Ribena oddly enough, it being acidic

Dishwasher detergent is normally a strong alkali,
based on caustic soda and other ingredients.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 2007-10-09 15:32:16 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
John Stumbles wrote:
On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:33:08 +0000, djc wrote:

Not general purpose but very good for removing tannin from teapots and
cups. Mix to a paste with a little water.

I wonder if bicarb is an ingredient of dishwasher detergent which is also
very good for degunking teapots and vacuum flasks?

So is Ribena oddly enough, it being acidic

Dishwasher detergent is normally a strong alkali,
based on caustic soda and other ingredients.

This is an area where there is a lot of marketing.

A recently purchased pack of dishwasher cleaner claimed to have X% of
non ionic surfactant which all sounds very innocent and like the
instruction book for a 1960s girl's chemistry set.

Reading in more detail and looking at the MSDS revealed that it was our
old friend, NaOH. No other ingredients were mentioned.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

A recently purchased pack of dishwasher cleaner claimed to have X% of non
ionic surfactant which all sounds very innocent and like the instruction
book for a 1960s girl's chemistry set.

Reading in more detail and looking at the MSDS revealed that it was our
old friend, NaOH. No other ingredients were mentioned.

That'll be what does some of the work, but there will be a non ionic
surfactant as well, since NaOH doesn't fit that definition at all.

cheers,
clive

On 2007-10-09 23:37:31 +0100, "Clive George" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

A recently purchased pack of dishwasher cleaner claimed to have X% of
non ionic surfactant which all sounds very innocent and like the
instruction book for a 1960s girl's chemistry set.

Reading in more detail and looking at the MSDS revealed that it was our
old friend, NaOH. No other ingredients were mentioned.

That'll be what does some of the work, but there will be a non ionic
surfactant as well, since NaOH doesn't fit that definition at all.

cheers,
clive

I see.

What things fall within that definitiion?

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2007-10-09 23:37:31 +0100, "Clive George" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

A recently purchased pack of dishwasher cleaner claimed to have X% of
non ionic surfactant which all sounds very innocent and like the
instruction book for a 1960s girl's chemistry set.

Reading in more detail and looking at the MSDS revealed that it was our
old friend, NaOH. No other ingredients were mentioned.

That'll be what does some of the work, but there will be a non ionic
surfactant as well, since NaOH doesn't fit that definition at all.

cheers,
clive

I see.

What things fall within that definitiion?

A wetting agent, like a detergent (except they are more
commonly ionic surfactants). It's a long time ago since
I knew this, but IIRC ionic surfacants tend to foam
easily as they skin over water one molecule thick with
the charged end of the molecule in the water and the
uncharged end sticking out, aiding bubble formation.
This is a bad thing in a dishwasher as anyone who's
tried using regular washing up liquid in one will tell
you. Non-ionic surfactants don't do that.

The surfacant ensures the food can be quickly wetted by
the caustic soda, so it can quickly get to work on it.
The surfacant also has cleaning properties in that it
can break dirt down into small particles and surround it,
making it appear to be soluable when in fact it isn't by
itself.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2007-10-09 23:37:31 +0100, "Clive George" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

A recently purchased pack of dishwasher cleaner claimed to have X% of
non ionic surfactant which all sounds very innocent and like the
instruction book for a 1960s girl's chemistry set.

Reading in more detail and looking at the MSDS revealed that it was our
old friend, NaOH. No other ingredients were mentioned.
That'll be what does some of the work, but there will be a non ionic
surfactant as well, since NaOH doesn't fit that definition at all.

cheers,
clive
I see.

What things fall within that definitiion?

A wetting agent, like a detergent (except they are more
commonly ionic surfactants). It's a long time ago since
I knew this, but IIRC ionic surfacants tend to foam
easily as they skin over water one molecule thick with
the charged end of the molecule in the water and the
uncharged end sticking out, aiding bubble formation.
This is a bad thing in a dishwasher as anyone who's
tried using regular washing up liquid in one will tell
you. Non-ionic surfactants don't do that.

The surfacant ensures the food can be quickly wetted by
the caustic soda, so it can quickly get to work on it.
The surfacant also has cleaning properties in that it
can break dirt down into small particles and surround it,
making it appear to be soluable when in fact it isn't by
itself.

A domestic cleaning product is only likely to contain sufficient caustic
soda to make it alkaline i.e. bugger all. It has to be mentioned in the
safety data though, whereas the main ingredients are probably not
considered hazardous.
IIRC surfactants are either non-ionic (non-foaming), anionic (foaming),
cationic (forming a film on the surface- hair conditioner etc). I
remember an occasion many moons ago when every hotel room in London was
taken because of a....surfactant conference. Obviously very big
business, even then.

On 2007-10-10 11:52:54 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2007-10-09 23:37:31 +0100, "Clive George" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

A recently purchased pack of dishwasher cleaner claimed to have X% of
non ionic surfactant which all sounds very innocent and like the
instruction book for a 1960s girl's chemistry set.

Reading in more detail and looking at the MSDS revealed that it was our
old friend, NaOH. No other ingredients were mentioned.

That'll be what does some of the work, but there will be a non ionic
surfactant as well, since NaOH doesn't fit that definition at all.

cheers,
clive

I see.

What things fall within that definitiion?

A wetting agent, like a detergent (except they are more
commonly ionic surfactants). It's a long time ago since
I knew this, but IIRC ionic surfacants tend to foam
easily as they skin over water one molecule thick with
the charged end of the molecule in the water and the
uncharged end sticking out, aiding bubble formation.
This is a bad thing in a dishwasher as anyone who's
tried using regular washing up liquid in one will tell
you. Non-ionic surfactants don't do that.

The surfacant ensures the food can be quickly wetted by
the caustic soda, so it can quickly get to work on it.
The surfacant also has cleaning properties in that it
can break dirt down into small particles and surround it,
making it appear to be soluable when in fact it isn't by
itself.


OK.

By dishwasher cleaner here I meant the product that can be put in
periodically to clean the machine itself.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-10-10 11:52:54 +0100, (Andrew Gabriel)
said:

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2007-10-09 23:37:31 +0100, "Clive George"
said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

A recently purchased pack of dishwasher cleaner claimed to have X% of
non ionic surfactant which all sounds very innocent and like the
instruction book for a 1960s girl's chemistry set.

Reading in more detail and looking at the MSDS revealed that it was
our
old friend, NaOH. No other ingredients were mentioned.

That'll be what does some of the work, but there will be a non ionic
surfactant as well, since NaOH doesn't fit that definition at all.

cheers,
clive

I see.

What things fall within that definitiion?

A wetting agent, like a detergent (except they are more
commonly ionic surfactants). It's a long time ago since
I knew this, but IIRC ionic surfacants tend to foam
easily as they skin over water one molecule thick with
the charged end of the molecule in the water and the
uncharged end sticking out, aiding bubble formation.
This is a bad thing in a dishwasher as anyone who's
tried using regular washing up liquid in one will tell
you. Non-ionic surfactants don't do that.

The surfacant ensures the food can be quickly wetted by
the caustic soda, so it can quickly get to work on it.
The surfacant also has cleaning properties in that it
can break dirt down into small particles and surround it,
making it appear to be soluable when in fact it isn't by
itself.


OK.

By dishwasher cleaner here I meant the product that can be put in
periodically to clean the machine itself.

Makes no difference. You still don't want a foaming surfactant. You could
well have more NaOH to attack the stubborn stuff a bit more, but that still
doesn't make it a) non-ionic b) a surfactant, or c) miscible with
oil/grease. You still need the surfactant as Andrew said above.

cheers,
clive

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:34:26 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


By dishwasher cleaner here I meant the product that can be put in
periodically to clean the machine itself.

Water?

:-)
--
Frank Erskine