On 28 Sep, 22:28, "Uno-Hoo!" Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:
Ever tried buying a reasonably priced interconnect cable for your hi-fi, TV,
home cinema, recently? It's nigh on impossible on the High Street because
all the major retailers stock nothing but these ridiculously over-priced
'super cables'. It's just one big con.

I wanted a short cable with 3.5mm jack on each end to connect my MP3 player
to my Home Cinema system the other day. The cheapest one in Currys Digital
was £14.99!! I found one on-line for £2.99 (free delivery) and it's more
than adequate.

What really gets my goat is the claim by many 'sound and vision' magazines
that you can get a better High Definition picture and surround sound from an
expensive HDMI cable.

HDMI cables do not transmit either video or audio signals - they transmit
binary code. So long as the cable is not faulty, and the code gets through,
then the picture and sound will be identical whether the cable cost £7 or
£700. How do they get away with spreading this nonsense?

If you are trading up to a HD ready TV and a Sky HD box - then don't be
conned by the retailer into buying an expensive HDMI cable - the one
supplied by Sky with their HD box is perfectly adequate!

Kev

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and
backwards and that when the wires wear out all the smoke or the
phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more and that is also
why houses have to be rewirred every so many years coz the wires wear
out and are no longer safe to use but if the wires are gold plated
that keeps the electrums in the wires and they dont wear out so quick
and if they sre thicker they can carry bigger currants too.

"Sasha_Klamp" wrote in message
ps.com...
On 28 Sep, 22:28, "Uno-Hoo!" Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:
Ever tried buying a reasonably priced interconnect cable for your hi-fi,
TV,
home cinema, recently? It's nigh on impossible on the High Street because
all the major retailers stock nothing but these ridiculously over-priced
'super cables'. It's just one big con.

I wanted a short cable with 3.5mm jack on each end to connect my MP3
player
to my Home Cinema system the other day. The cheapest one in Currys Digital
was £14.99!! I found one on-line for £2.99 (free delivery) and it's more
than adequate.

What really gets my goat is the claim by many 'sound and vision' magazines
that you can get a better High Definition picture and surround sound from
an
expensive HDMI cable.

HDMI cables do not transmit either video or audio signals - they transmit
binary code. So long as the cable is not faulty, and the code gets
through,
then the picture and sound will be identical whether the cable cost £7 or
£700. How do they get away with spreading this nonsense?

If you are trading up to a HD ready TV and a Sky HD box - then don't be
conned by the retailer into buying an expensive HDMI cable - the one
supplied by Sky with their HD box is perfectly adequate!

Kev

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and
backwards and that when the wires wear out all the smoke or the
phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more and that is also
why houses have to be rewirred every so many years coz the wires wear
out and are no longer safe to use but if the wires are gold plated
that keeps the electrums in the wires and they dont wear out so quick
and if they sre thicker they can carry bigger currants too.

I presume that's a mickey-take? !!

Kev

In article om,
Sasha_Klamp wrote:

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and
backwards and that when the wires wear out all the smoke or the
phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more and that is also
why houses have to be rewirred every so many years coz the wires wear
out and are no longer safe to use but if the wires are gold plated
that keeps the electrums in the wires and they dont wear out so quick
and if they sre thicker they can carry bigger currants too.

Hi Sasha,

I run "Write Stuff", an on-line creative writing group dedicated to
helping those on the margins of society, including the
educationally-disadvantaged, express themselves through the written word.

Whether you want to improve your basic literacy or get your prose to a
standard where it's fit to be seen in public without causing feelings of
shame and embarrassment, "Write Stuff" is for you.

It's a very friendly crowd and strictly non-judgmental. So don't be
shy, we'd love to help you.

If you'd like to join, just contact me directly.

Regards,
Jon Penton

The message
from Jon Penton contains these words:

If you'd like to join, just contact me directly.

Sadly I think you'll find that someone who writes like that is unlikely
to realise there's a problem, let alone wish to address it.

--
Skipweasel
We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost]

Uno-Hoo! wrote:
"Sasha_Klamp" wrote in message

HDMI cables do not transmit either video or audio signals - they transmit
binary code. So long as the cable is not faulty, and the code gets
through,
then the picture and sound will be identical whether the cable cost £7 or
£700. How do they get away with spreading this nonsense?

If you are trading up to a HD ready TV and a Sky HD box - then don't be
conned by the retailer into buying an expensive HDMI cable - the one
supplied by Sky with their HD box is perfectly adequate!

Kev

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and
backwards and that when the wires wear out all the smoke or the
phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more and that is also
why houses have to be rewirred every so many years coz the wires wear
out and are no longer safe to use but if the wires are gold plated
that keeps the electrums in the wires and they dont wear out so quick
and if they sre thicker they can carry bigger currants too.

I presume that's a mickey-take? !!

Kev



Funniest thing I've read in a while :-D

Of course it's a p*ss take - anyone who knows what Phlogiston is must
have at least one or two marbles present!

It will be duly copied, plagiarised, etc.

Neil.

In article ,
Guy King wrote:
The message
from Jon Penton contains these words:

If you'd like to join, just contact me directly.

Sadly I think you'll find that someone who writes like that is unlikely
to realise there's a problem, let alone wish to address it.

Heh heh - if you look at the moniker you'd guess it's a **** take from
uk.d-i-y...

--
*'ome is where you 'ang your @ *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:01:38 UTC, Jon Penton wrote:

In article om,
Sasha_Klamp wrote:

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and
backwards and that when the wires wear out all the smoke or the
phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more and that is also
why houses have to be rewirred every so many years coz the wires wear
out and are no longer safe to use but if the wires are gold plated
that keeps the electrums in the wires and they dont wear out so quick
and if they sre thicker they can carry bigger currants too.

I run "Write Stuff", an on-line creative writing group dedicated to
helping those on the margins of society, including the
educationally-disadvantaged, express themselves through the written word.

Can I interest you in a "Find your own sense of humour" course, or is
this another wind-up?
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:31:01 UTC, Guy King
wrote:

The message
from Jon Penton contains these words:

If you'd like to join, just contact me directly.

Sadly I think you'll find that someone who writes like that is unlikely
to realise there's a problem, let alone wish to address it.

Oh, dear.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

Bob Eager said:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:01:38 UTC, Jon Penton wrote:
Sasha_Klamp wrote:

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction ...

I run "Write Stuff", an on-line creative writing group dedicated to
helping those on the margins of society, including the
educationally-disadvantaged, express themselves through the written word.

Can I interest you in a "Find your own sense of humour" course, or is
this another wind-up?

It all seems to add to the fun, either way.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

The message
from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words:

Heh heh - if you look at the moniker you'd guess it's a **** take from
uk.d-i-y...

Oh, I knew that - I just couldn't resist.

--
Skipweasel
We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost]

The message
from "Bob Eager" contains these words:

Can I interest you in a "Find your own sense of humour" course, or is
this another wind-up?

You should read the FreeCycle messages from round here, then you'd not
be so quick to assume it's a wind-up.

For example...
"wanted wardrobe +chester drawes; my daughters chesterdrawes has fell
too pices the wardrobe the chip has gone to dust
iam in bedworth; can collect distends no truble"

--
Skipweasel
We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:42:25 -0700, Sasha_Klamp
wrote:

On 28 Sep, 22:28, "Uno-Hoo!" Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:
Ever tried buying a reasonably priced interconnect cable for your hi-fi, TV,
home cinema, recently? It's nigh on impossible on the High Street because
all the major retailers stock nothing but these ridiculously over-priced
'super cables'. It's just one big con.

I wanted a short cable with 3.5mm jack on each end to connect my MP3 player
to my Home Cinema system the other day. The cheapest one in Currys Digital
was £14.99!! I found one on-line for £2.99 (free delivery) and it's more
than adequate.

What really gets my goat is the claim by many 'sound and vision' magazines
that you can get a better High Definition picture and surround sound from an
expensive HDMI cable.

HDMI cables do not transmit either video or audio signals - they transmit
binary code. So long as the cable is not faulty, and the code gets through,
then the picture and sound will be identical whether the cable cost £7 or
£700. How do they get away with spreading this nonsense?

If you are trading up to a HD ready TV and a Sky HD box - then don't be
conned by the retailer into buying an expensive HDMI cable - the one
supplied by Sky with their HD box is perfectly adequate!

Kev

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and
backwards and that when the wires wear out all the smoke or the
phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more and that is also
why houses have to be rewirred every so many years coz the wires wear
out and are no longer safe to use but if the wires are gold plated
that keeps the electrums in the wires and they dont wear out so quick
and if they sre thicker they can carry bigger currants too.


I do believe that you missed out an "innit"

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:35:38 UTC, Guy King
wrote:

The message
from "Bob Eager" contains these words:

Can I interest you in a "Find your own sense of humour" course, or is
this another wind-up?

You should read the FreeCycle messages from round here, then you'd not
be so quick to assume it's a wind-up.

I was going on the moniker, and past history, too.

But I know exactly what you mean about the Freecycle messages!
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:25:02 +0100, "Uno-Hoo!"
Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and
backwards and that when the wires wear out all the smoke or the
phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more and that is also
why houses have to be rewirred every so many years coz the wires wear
out and are no longer safe to use but if the wires are gold plated
that keeps the electrums in the wires and they dont wear out so quick
and if they sre thicker they can carry bigger currants too.

I presume that's a mickey-take? !!

I hope so! There is one point that it caused me to think of. You
*do* get differences in quality of the connector and its attachment to
the wire. So it pays to get a cable of better quality in that regard
if you are going to be plugging & unplugging the cable often so it
doesn'y wear out or break.

--
Cynic

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:42:25 -0700, Sasha_Klamp wrote:

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a new
set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper cabels
might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the friction caused
by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and backwards and that
when the wires wear out all the smoke or the phlogiston comes out and the
wires wont work no more and that is also why houses have to be rewirred
every so many years coz the wires wear out and are no longer safe to use
but if the wires are gold plated that keeps the electrums in the wires and
they dont wear out so quick and if they sre thicker they can carry bigger
currants too.

ROFL!

--
Phil Stovell, Hampshire, UK

Sasha_Klamp wrote:
On 28 Sep, 22:28, "Uno-Hoo!" Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:
Ever tried buying a reasonably priced interconnect cable for your
hi-fi, TV, home cinema, recently? It's nigh on impossible on the
High Street because all the major retailers stock nothing but these
ridiculously over-priced 'super cables'. It's just one big con.

I wanted a short cable with 3.5mm jack on each end to connect my MP3
player to my Home Cinema system the other day. The cheapest one in
Currys Digital was £14.99!! I found one on-line for £2.99 (free
delivery) and it's more than adequate.

What really gets my goat is the claim by many 'sound and vision'
magazines that you can get a better High Definition picture and
surround sound from an expensive HDMI cable.

HDMI cables do not transmit either video or audio signals - they
transmit binary code. So long as the cable is not faulty, and the
code gets through, then the picture and sound will be identical
whether the cable cost £7 or £700. How do they get away with
spreading this nonsense?

If you are trading up to a HD ready TV and a Sky HD box - then don't
be conned by the retailer into buying an expensive HDMI cable - the
one supplied by Sky with their HD box is perfectly adequate!

Kev

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and
backwards and that when the wires wear out all the smoke or the
phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more and that is also
why houses have to be rewirred every so many years coz the wires wear
out and are no longer safe to use but if the wires are gold plated
that keeps the electrums in the wires and they dont wear out so quick
and if they sre thicker they can carry bigger currants too.

The main problem happens when the power generators put sultannas down
the wires. These are bigger than currants and rub themselves on the
sides of the wire causing them to wear out more quickly. Sometimes they
get stuck then you get smoke and all sorts of nasty things happening!

Sasha_Klamp wrote:

the phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more

Your boyfriend has overlooked the compensatory effect of
dephlogisticated air.

Jon Penton wrote:

I run "Write Stuff", an on-line creative writing group dedicated to
helping those on the margins of society

Do those hooks hurt your lip?

On 29 Sep, 14:03, "clot" wrote:
Sasha_Klamp wrote:
On 28 Sep, 22:28, "Uno-Hoo!" Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:
Ever tried buying a reasonably priced interconnect cable for your
hi-fi, TV, home cinema, recently? It's nigh on impossible on the
High Street because all the major retailers stock nothing but these
ridiculously over-priced 'super cables'. It's just one big con.

I wanted a short cable with 3.5mm jack on each end to connect my MP3
player to my Home Cinema system the other day. The cheapest one in
Currys Digital was £14.99!! I found one on-line for £2.99 (free
delivery) and it's more than adequate.

What really gets my goat is the claim by many 'sound and vision'
magazines that you can get a better High Definition picture and
surround sound from an expensive HDMI cable.

HDMI cables do not transmit either video or audio signals - they
transmit binary code. So long as the cable is not faulty, and the
code gets through, then the picture and sound will be identical
whether the cable cost £7 or £700. How do they get away with
spreading this nonsense?

If you are trading up to a HD ready TV and a Sky HD box - then don't
be conned by the retailer into buying an expensive HDMI cable - the
one supplied by Sky with their HD box is perfectly adequate!

Kev

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and
backwards and that when the wires wear out all the smoke or the
phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more and that is also
why houses have to be rewirred every so many years coz the wires wear
out and are no longer safe to use but if the wires are gold plated
that keeps the electrums in the wires and they dont wear out so quick
and if they sre thicker they can carry bigger currants too.

The main problem happens when the power generators put sultannas down
the wires. These are bigger than currants and rub themselves on the
sides of the wire causing them to wear out more quickly. Sometimes they
get stuck then you get smoke and all sorts of nasty things happening!

Somehow, I knew there'd be a raisin for it.

--
x If you have been, did it get fruity?
/|\

wrote:
On 29 Sep, 14:03, "clot" wrote:
Sasha_Klamp wrote:
On 28 Sep, 22:28, "Uno-Hoo!" Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:


snip
i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the
cheaper cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out
from the friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going
forwards and backwards and that when the wires wear out all the
smoke or the phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more
and that is also why houses have to be rewirred every so many years
coz the wires wear out and are no longer safe to use but if the
wires are gold plated that keeps the electrums in the wires and
they dont wear out so quick and if they sre thicker they can carry
bigger currants too.

The main problem happens when the power generators put sultannas down
the wires. These are bigger than currants and rub themselves on the
sides of the wire causing them to wear out more quickly. Sometimes
they get stuck then you get smoke and all sorts of nasty things
happening!

Somehow, I knew there'd be a raisin for it.

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:58:00 UTC, Owain
wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:
Sasha_Klamp wrote:
the phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more
Your boyfriend has overlooked the compensatory effect of
dephlogisticated air.

Available in 500ml and 1l spraycans from your favourite hi-fi dealer.

Squirt all your plugs with it once a week.

Hardcore audiophiles even do their ears with it.

I still can't get cans of that magic smoke, to fill up things again when
I accidentally let it out.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

The message
from Owain contains these words:

Hardcore audiophiles even do their ears with it.

That would explain a lot.

--
Skipweasel
We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost]

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from Jon Penton contains these words:

If you'd like to join, just contact me directly.

Sadly I think you'll find that someone who writes like that is unlikely
to realise there's a problem, let alone wish to address it.

This'll do. From 28dayslater urb ex forum

"visit wiv me homeboi ot

it was mi first time down an underground fort and it was loadsa fun wiv all
da candlez

damn places wer full of hazardz tho - got bittern all ova mi head by
critterz and sat in a bunch o nettles!"

--
Malc

The message k
from "malc" contains these words:

got bittern all ova mi head

A reed-dwelling bird has laid an egg on his bonce? How peculiar.

--
Skipweasel
We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:48:30 +0000, Jon Penton wrote:

It is clear that Sasha is crying out for understanding and respect when
s/he posts these attention-seeking examples of juvenile humour.

How dare you assume that Sasha is a she or a he - don't "it"s have rights
too?

--
John Stumbles

it flies like a banana
Tits like coconuts

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:48:30 +0000, Jon Penton wrote:

It is clear that Sasha is crying out for understanding and respect when
s/he posts these attention-seeking examples of juvenile humour.

How dare you assume that Sasha is a she or a he - don't "it"s have rights
too?

I think Sasha may be an alias of this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V_Shaney

"Cynic" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:25:02 +0100, "Uno-Hoo!"
Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:

i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and
backwards and that when the wires wear out all the smoke or the
phlogiston comes out and the wires wont work no more and that is also
why houses have to be rewirred every so many years coz the wires wear
out and are no longer safe to use but if the wires are gold plated
that keeps the electrums in the wires and they dont wear out so quick
and if they sre thicker they can carry bigger currants too.

I presume that's a mickey-take? !!

I hope so! There is one point that it caused me to think of. You
*do* get differences in quality of the connector and its attachment to
the wire. So it pays to get a cable of better quality in that regard
if you are going to be plugging & unplugging the cable often so it
doesn'y wear out or break.

Yes, I can accept that - but most of the hype about these supposed 'super'
cables is just that - hype.

I've just recently bought a Panasonic plasma TV and coupled it with a
Panasonic Home Theater system. The surround sound speakers are connected to
the head unit via cables (wires!) that are not much thicker than bell-wire -
and yet the sound is excellent.

I notice from that link to James Randi's web site that he has offered one of
the US sound and vision mag editors a million dollars to demonstrate that he
can detect the difference between these supposed super cables. He hasn't
taken up the offer - which speaks for itself!

I have no doubt whatsoever that in a blind test no-one would be able to tell
the difference between the 'out of the box' connecting cables - and the
expensive super cables.

I notice that they are even selling expensive 75 ohm co-ax cables to link
from the wall socket to your video equipment. The fact that you might have
20 - 30 feet of ancient poor-quality co-ax from the wall socket to the
aerial appears not to matter!

You even have the mags describing the superior sound produced with
replacement mains cables. It's ludicrous!

Kev

In article ,
Uno-Hoo! Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:
I've just recently bought a Panasonic plasma TV and coupled it with a
Panasonic Home Theater system. The surround sound speakers are connected
to the head unit via cables (wires!) that are not much thicker than
bell-wire - and yet the sound is excellent.

There's no magic about speaker cable - it should just have a low enough
resistance for the application. Your surround speakers will be low powered
and have a poor bass reponse so light gauge cable will be fine. Quality
full range high power handling speakers will require something thicker for
best results. The length also influences the gauge.

The rule of thumb is the loop resistance of the cable shouldn't exceed 5%
of the nominal impedance of the speaker. But you need an expensive DVM to
measure this accurately so easier to just err on the generous side. For
most domestic applications a cross sectional area of 2.5mm² will be fine.

--
*Cover me. I'm changing lanes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The message
from "Uno-Hoo!" Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom contains these words:

I have no doubt whatsoever that in a blind test no-one would be able
to tell
the difference between the 'out of the box' connecting cables - and the
expensive super cables.

Oooh, the Sooper-Dooper cable manufacturer's bank manager could.

--
Skipweasel
We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Uno-Hoo! Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:
I've just recently bought a Panasonic plasma TV and coupled it with a
Panasonic Home Theater system. The surround sound speakers are connected
to the head unit via cables (wires!) that are not much thicker than
bell-wire - and yet the sound is excellent.

There's no magic about speaker cable - it should just have a low enough
resistance for the application. Your surround speakers will be low powered
and have a poor bass reponse so light gauge cable will be fine. Quality
full range high power handling speakers will require something thicker for
best results. The length also influences the gauge.

Hmm. Someone a long time ago did suggest that skin effect may just be
evident at the very highest audio frequencies - I suppose it's /just/
possible that a well-conducted double-blind test /might/ just show this.
OTOH I've always used bell wire or ring main cable, and been very
content :-)

--
Mike Scott (unet at scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex England

In article ,
Mike Scott wrote:
There's no magic about speaker cable - it should just have a low
enough resistance for the application. Your surround speakers will be
low powered and have a poor bass reponse so light gauge cable will be
fine. Quality full range high power handling speakers will require
something thicker for best results. The length also influences the
gauge.

Hmm. Someone a long time ago did suggest that skin effect may just be
evident at the very highest audio frequencies - I suppose it's /just/
possible that a well-conducted double-blind test /might/ just show this.
OTOH I've always used bell wire or ring main cable, and been very
content :-)

What tends to happen with inadequate cable is at the bass end as good
amplifiers generally have a very low output impedance to damp the movement
of the cone at low frequency/ high power - without this the cone will tend
to overshoot rather than follow the waveform exactly. And if the cable has
appreciable resistance you loose this damping factor.
If skin effect has any function at audio frequencies - which I doubt - it
makes no difference to cable specs.

--
*I have a degree in liberal arts -- do you want fries with that

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Scott wrote:
There's no magic about speaker cable - it should just have a low
enough resistance for the application. Your surround speakers will be
low powered and have a poor bass reponse so light gauge cable will be
fine. Quality full range high power handling speakers will require
something thicker for best results. The length also influences the
gauge.

Hmm. Someone a long time ago did suggest that skin effect may just be
evident at the very highest audio frequencies - I suppose it's /just/
possible that a well-conducted double-blind test /might/ just show this.
OTOH I've always used bell wire or ring main cable, and been very
content :-)

What tends to happen with inadequate cable is at the bass end as good
amplifiers generally have a very low output impedance to damp the movement
of the cone at low frequency/ high power - without this the cone will tend
to overshoot rather than follow the waveform exactly. And if the cable has
appreciable resistance you loose this damping factor.
If skin effect has any function at audio frequencies - which I doubt - it
makes no difference to cable specs.

That's an argument for low resistance cables. The point about skin
depth is that the /effective/ cross-section decreases as frequency
rises. It's too long since I looked at this stuff - but looking at
wikipedia's entry on skin depth suggests this is around .7mm at 15kHz
for aluminium cables. I'd guess copper to be similar. It means that
whatever the diameter of the cable, only about 2mm or so surface
thickness is actually used at the highest frequencies. So those nice
chunky low-Z cables aren't so low-Z as you'd expect at the higher end of
the spectrum, which /may/ contribute to a drop in hf response. Whether
it's actually noticeable in practice is another matter.


--
Mike Scott (unet at scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex England

In article ,
Mike Scott wrote:
What tends to happen with inadequate cable is at the bass end as good
amplifiers generally have a very low output impedance to damp the
movement of the cone at low frequency/ high power - without this the
cone will tend to overshoot rather than follow the waveform exactly.
And if the cable has appreciable resistance you loose this damping
factor. If skin effect has any function at audio frequencies - which I
doubt - it makes no difference to cable specs.

That's an argument for low resistance cables. The point about skin
depth is that the /effective/ cross-section decreases as frequency
rises. It's too long since I looked at this stuff - but looking at
wikipedia's entry on skin depth suggests this is around .7mm at 15kHz
for aluminium cables. I'd guess copper to be similar. It means that
whatever the diameter of the cable, only about 2mm or so surface
thickness is actually used at the highest frequencies. So those nice
chunky low-Z cables aren't so low-Z as you'd expect at the higher end of
the spectrum, which /may/ contribute to a drop in hf response. Whether
it's actually noticeable in practice is another matter.

It's not - nor is it measurable to sensible limits. Ie, less than 0.5dB
which my test set will do.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Uno-Hoo! wrote:

You even have the mags describing the superior sound produced with
replacement mains cables. It's ludicrous!


The trouble is that there is a very small grain of truth in all of the
BS..yes, a high impedance mains cable can affect the operation of a
poorly stabilised PSU in an amplifier..yes a corroded zinc plated
contact can introduce distortion, whereas gold doesn't corrode...yes a
highly capacitative speaker lead can introduce amplifier instabililty in
a poorly designed amp., that will affect the sound..

I spent abou 8 years designing top calss suido sysems. he whole myth was
blown apart when the goldden ears from a loudspeaker company said he
wanted an amplifier 'as good as this Revox' I meausured 0.7% crossover
distortion.

I built three test amp, a class A with umeasurable crossover distortion,
and a trad class B similar to the Revox, and a class AB which was nearly
as good as the class A.

W then set up a blind test. After much adjustment of volume levels, he
pronounced the best one to be he one with the worse crossover distortion.

I then showed him the actual waveforms, and suddenly his opinion
reversed completely.


Then one day I had a pair of bookshelf speakres: These were in fact
bloody good, but I didn't need them so I took the to a friend, and he
tried themn out and aid 'They don't have any bass'

"WHAT?" I said because they did have.."LISTEN he said, and swapped in
his old ones. And I heard a wonderful 120hz cabinet resonance.."RThats
no bass" I said, switching his EQ all around to remove it..then I put
the new ones in and showed him what 80hz *felt* like... THAT is BASS.
'Ah" he said "I see what you mean".

I spent another 5 years making guitar amplifiers. At elast here no one
was bul****ting about the 'closest approach to the original sound' -
only Les Paul ever did that. THESE guys wanted tth closest approach to
an VOX AC30,ma Marshall 100W valve, a Fender or a mesa boogie.

I gave em all of it. WE ben te frequency response and the distortion to
hell and back (thats a warm sound you got there, just like a valve) ,
duplicated the awful lack of design (hats starting to have some edge
there, keep up the good work), put in the nasty thin coned louspeakers
in undamped openbacked cabinets (hey man, that boogies like a
VOx..almost..), with the 100 ohm output impedance amps (NOW that IS a
VOX! Howdya do that?) and the power supplies that sagged 30% every time
they strucvkk a chord..(man That is how my marshall sounds great attack
to a note) They LOVED it.

I've done tests on CDs and turntables. Ive spent years listening to 4
pole, 6 pole and 8 pole IF filters in FM sets.

In the end, people like what they are used to. Almost no one can hear
distortion under a couple of percent unless its crossover, in which case
they CAN hear it down to about .2%. A lot of them LIKE it. Without it
the sound seems 'overly clinical: Sterile'..

Early CD D to A converters had enough crossover to get the medium a bad
name. Today it ain't true.

The vast majority of ampligier with any pretense to hi-fi are ruler flat
frequency response wise 25hz to 50Khz or more, whereas in a a typical
*room* a loudspeaker will probably not get started much under 100hz, and
maybe difficulty staying flat to +- 8db, and give out totally around 15Khz.

This does not stop people yattering on about how truly 'flat' their amp
graphs are.

I had to narrow the IF bandwidth on my FM tuner deign to cope with close
spaced European stations. It never sounded the same after wards. I could
not measure the difference at the audio level, though it was plain to
see RF wise. Nevertheless is was noticeable to me. I tried to do the
maths, but gave up.

In blind tests, people would unhesitatingly pick an amplifier as better,
if it was in fact not being changed at all, just given 1db more gain.

In blind tests, my rock guitarists could not reliably tell whether it
was my amplifiers or their favorite valve ones, they were using. However
they still preferred their valve ones.

The conclusion? people can fool themselves very easily, and be fooled
even easier. They like what they are used to. Warts an all. Instruments
don;t lie, but they do not ell the whole truth either.

Oh, and apart from grossly BAD cables, no one ever could detect ANY
difference with any sort of cabling change whatsoever.

Mike Scott wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Uno-Hoo! Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:
I've just recently bought a Panasonic plasma TV and coupled it with a
Panasonic Home Theater system. The surround sound speakers are connected
to the head unit via cables (wires!) that are not much thicker than
bell-wire - and yet the sound is excellent.

There's no magic about speaker cable - it should just have a low enough
resistance for the application. Your surround speakers will be low
powered
and have a poor bass reponse so light gauge cable will be fine. Quality
full range high power handling speakers will require something thicker
for
best results. The length also influences the gauge.

Hmm. Someone a long time ago did suggest that skin effect may just be
evident at the very highest audio frequencies - I suppose it's /just/
possible that a well-conducted double-blind test /might/ just show this.
OTOH I've always used bell wire or ring main cable, and been very
content :-)

If you have a cheap and crappy, or an expensive and badly engineered
amp, the RF impedance of the cable can and does cause instability in the
amp, generally with an increase in distortion, noise and a nasty sort of
grittiness. You wont see that with a valve amp, since they struggle to
deliver audio bandwidth let alone RF, but a crap designer who thinks
that a frequency response to 5Mhz or better will help sell his
transistor designs, may indeed leave his amp marginally stable to do so.

I had enough designs show this behaviour when large gain and large
feedback was in place to get ruler flat responses and sub .05%
distortion levels..The answer was to cripple the amplifier somewhat with
an output choke in series with it. That knocked the 100KHZ response off
a bit, but protected it from becoming a MW transmitter.

If you CAN tell the difference, you have a crap amp. Replace it.

The main effect of too thin wire is an increase in bass resonance on the
loudspeakers. Due to lack of damping. This effect is usually an orde of
magnitude less than the effect of placing the loudspaeker on stands, or
in/out of a corner.

In terms of HF response, the loudspeakers generally have more sensitive
tweeters than bass units, and RESISTORS are put in series with the
tweeters to reduce their efficiency somewhat. Which makes a bit of a
nonsense of all this low HF impedance ********.

Mike Scott wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Scott wrote:
There's no magic about speaker cable - it should just have a low
enough resistance for the application. Your surround speakers will be
low powered and have a poor bass reponse so light gauge cable will be
fine. Quality full range high power handling speakers will require
something thicker for best results. The length also influences the
gauge.

Hmm. Someone a long time ago did suggest that skin effect may just be
evident at the very highest audio frequencies - I suppose it's /just/
possible that a well-conducted double-blind test /might/ just show
this. OTOH I've always used bell wire or ring main cable, and been
very content :-)

What tends to happen with inadequate cable is at the bass end as good
amplifiers generally have a very low output impedance to damp the
movement
of the cone at low frequency/ high power - without this the cone will
tend
to overshoot rather than follow the waveform exactly. And if the cable
has
appreciable resistance you loose this damping factor.
If skin effect has any function at audio frequencies - which I doubt
- it
makes no difference to cable specs.

That's an argument for low resistance cables. The point about skin
depth is that the /effective/ cross-section decreases as frequency
rises. It's too long since I looked at this stuff - but looking at
wikipedia's entry on skin depth suggests this is around .7mm at 15kHz
for aluminium cables. I'd guess copper to be similar. It means that
whatever the diameter of the cable, only about 2mm or so surface
thickness is actually used at the highest frequencies. So those nice
chunky low-Z cables aren't so low-Z as you'd expect at the higher end of
the spectrum, which /may/ contribute to a drop in hf response. Whether
it's actually noticeable in practice is another matter.


Stranded wire of less than 0.7mm per strand completely solves this one.

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

The conclusion? people can fool themselves very easily, and be fooled
even easier.

And for this we have specialists called "Advertising consultants" -
there's no need to go helping them by doing the job oneself.

--
Skipweasel
We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost]

On Sep 29, 1:18 pm, Cynic wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:25:02 +0100, "Uno-Hoo!"

Uno-Hoo@NOSPAMbigfootdotcom wrote:
i asked my boyfriend about this the other week when we was geting a
new set and he said that you get what you pay for and that the cheaper
cabels might work ok for a while but they soon wear out from the
friction caused by all the electrums in the wires going forwards and
backwards

the electrons actually move surprising slowly. IIRC its a few mm/sec
for 1 Amp flowing down a 2.5 sqmm cable.

Robert

On or around Tue, 02 Oct 2007 13:05:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
enlightened us thusly:

The trouble is that there is a very small grain of truth in all of the
BS..yes, a high impedance mains cable can affect the operation of a
poorly stabilised PSU in an amplifier.

and it can make you think a compressor is faulty.

running my compressor (2-cylinder, 3 horse) on a longish extension lead
resulted in it failing to fire up, stalling and then cutting out. now it's
attached to a considerably shorter lead, it fires up OK.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms...
------------------------------------------------\
http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ \ ...and Kill them.
a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too!

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
....
What tends to happen with inadequate cable is at the bass end as good
amplifiers generally have a very low output impedance to damp the
movement
of the cone at low frequency/ high power - without this the cone will
tend
to overshoot rather than follow the waveform exactly. And if the
cable has
appreciable resistance you loose this damping factor.
If skin effect has any function at audio frequencies - which I doubt
- it
makes no difference to cable specs.

That's an argument for low resistance cables. The point about skin
depth is that the /effective/ cross-section decreases as frequency
rises. It's too long since I looked at this stuff - but looking at
wikipedia's entry on skin depth suggests this is around .7mm at 15kHz
for aluminium cables. I'd guess copper to be similar. It means that
whatever the diameter of the cable, only about 2mm or so surface
thickness is actually used at the highest frequencies. So those nice
chunky low-Z cables aren't so low-Z as you'd expect at the higher end
of the spectrum, which /may/ contribute to a drop in hf response.
Whether it's actually noticeable in practice is another matter.


Stranded wire of less than 0.7mm per strand completely solves this one.

Only if the strands are separated by more than that amount.


--
Mike Scott (unet at scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex England