"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

They have one MCB or RCBO at the CU to isolate the appliance. Nice and
neat, out of the way and accessible. The best way.

Requiring dedicated circuit wiring for each and every appliance.... hmmm
novel.

No. The standard in the rest of the world and safer. Ours is cheap - and
nasty.

Figures?

Ours is certainly not cheap, and IME the quality of accessories is usually
noticeably higher.

Installing a whole re-wi ring circuit vs a German/Dutch radial circuit.
The ring will be much cheaper. The prime reason it is used.

The accident statistics do not support your claims either.

The Dutch safety record is half of ours.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

BS1363 family is the most recently designed domestic plug and
socket system in the world. It was the result of some 10 years
of competition between manufacturers to design a new standard.
It has been adopted in whole or part by more countries in the
world than any other domestic plug and socket standard.

The US plugs are used in North and South America and other countries too.
Also because of the large population in the US more people use their systems
than ours. Those who adopted the British systems tend to be ex empire
countries, choosing a mother country system rather one on technical merits.

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 16:02:42 -0700, Pete C
wrote:

AIUI in Holland proportionately to population, the number of people
killed by electrical accidents is /half/ that of the UK, and I don't
think they have ring mains... do they?

The numbers killed in electrical accidents isn't recorded very
consistently between countries. For example some record only
electrocution deaths, some would record deaths in a fire caused by
electrical faults as "caused by electricity" others as a fire death.
There are certain countries in the EU with dire standards - France,
Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece and most of the old East Europeans
states amongst them. In these countries deaths primarily caused by
electrocution are fairly common.

From a hazard point of view fixed wiring (even French) doesn't cause
many accidents directly.

Yep.

The direct difference between ring and
radial is also minimal.

Yep.

However, the consequential hazards are not.
A characteristic of many continental installations is that there are
a smaller number of sockets in a house than for a house of similar
age in the UK and consequently much more use of trailing extensions.

Not the fault of the radial system.

These are inherently more hazardous than wall sockets and contribute
to far more fires of electric origin than does fixed wiring. The
lack of any form of appliance lead protection coupled with high trip
currents

High trip current? 16A MCBs or RCBOs on 8 sockets is not high. If a simple
fuse fails in a plug the protection is a 32A MCB (or fuse)

also makes fires caused by equipment failure more common on
the continent than in the UK.

All countries using the CEE 7/4 (Shuko) plugs tend to have a number
of child fatalities each year caused by objects being poked into the
unprotected openings. The UK has virtually no such accidents with
the shielded 13A socket.

There are unprotected openings now in some sockets I have seen. And the
cheap contractors will use them. I have seen fuseless plug too (I suspect
illegal imports, not sure).

The Schutzkontakt (Shuko) plug socket pair is designed to be safe in
that the side earth contact must mate before the pins and the
recessed socket prevents fingers touching the pins as they are being
inserted. Unfortunately there are a number of other systems using the
same or similar pin sizing and spacing as Shuko but without the earth
connection or recessed socket. As a result there are accidents
caused by plugging Shuko plugs into sockets where the earth is either
absent or ineffective as it doesn't touch the side contacts. A
further catch is that in such situations the side contacts on the
plug become live so giving a shock to anyone who tries to remove it
in such fault conditions. This commonly occurs with the two pin CEE
7/16 (Europlug 2.5 A/250 V) unearthed socket which isn't supposed to
fit a Shuko plug but many will. The French 2 pin plug with female
earth will also usually fit a Shuko socket - but without the earth
making. The CEE 7/7 is a cross between the Shuko and French systems
with side contacts and a female earth receptacle and usually supplied
with new equipment.

Although rated at 16A it is also possible to buy Shuko plugs with
considerably lower current carrying capacity and many "Shuko" plugs
are of poor quality and prone to overheating when running at high
loads. I have seen some dire examples around of very poorly made
Shuko plugs and nothing like the same poor quality in even the
cheapest BS 1363 plugs (probably because BS1363 plugs require third
party certification whilst manufacturers can self certify Shuko).

Another issue with the continental two pin plugs is that the wiring
of the live and neutral is random (and even if it were not the plugs
can be inserted any way around).

There is a standard to where live should be connected, but most don't stick
to it.

Usually this isn't an issue but it
becomes one when freestanding lamps using Edison Screw (the
continental standard) fittings. The threaded part of the shell can
be left live and shocks while changing bulbs and accidentally
touching the bulb thread are common. The shock isn't usually fatal,
the fall off the ladder more often is!

There is no question that BS 1363 is a fundamentally much safer
system than the Shuko and its variants. This is hardly unexpected as
the Shuko design dates from the 1920's.

The improved safety of the ring over the radial stems largely from
secondary effects of the greater number of fixed sockets and fuse
protection of the appliance lead.

"improved safety of the ring" Where? A radial circuit with RCBOs, tripping
on neutral and live, on each circuit is much safer. The UK ring system
trips on 32A and only the live. Most new Continental systems have RCBOs.

Together these reduce the number
of fires caused by overloaded and damaged extensions.

Fires in the UK are caused by the same problem. Most homes I see have
trailing extension leads, especially around computers, TVs, etc. Most homes
need banks of 6 wall of sockets Do you see them?

There is of course nothing to stop you wiring a BS1363 layout in radial
form -
but there would be no advantage in doing so.

There would be. A 16A RCBO at the CU, rather than a 32A RCBO. 1363 relies
on old hat fuses in plug tops.

If I did a re-wire, it would have radials and RCBOs. RCBOs are cheap in the
likes of France and buying a CU complete with them (Legrand for e.g.), they
are "much" cheaper than the UK, where RCBOs are extortionate.

I must be bored, as I find myself replying to a Drivel posting...

In article ews.net,
"Doctor Drivel" writes:

High trip current? 16A MCBs or RCBOs on 8 sockets is not high. If a simple
fuse fails in a plug the protection is a 32A MCB (or fuse)

The beauty of a simple fuse is that it doesn't fail.
If it blows, you know exactly which appliance caused it to do so, as
it's tied to the appliance. When a continental circuit blows, you have
no idea which appliance did it (unless one of them is also emitting
smoke), nor if it's a faulty appliance or if you just overloaded the
circuit (which is also all too easy to do) or if it's a faulty circuit.
UK system handles that much better, which is not surprising as it's a
newer design which was intended to avoid that problem.

There are unprotected openings now in some sockets I have seen.

No there aren't.

There is a standard to where live should be connected, but most don't stick
to it.

Considering the two most common continental sockets, the Shucko
has a completely reversible plug, so wiring up the socket in any
particular way would be pointless. The French/Belgium plug isn't
reversible in the same way, but you'll find each socket on a double
socket or 2-way adaptor is hard-wired the opposite way around, so
there's no standard there either. Furthermore, some areas which
use these connectors don't have a live and neutral, as neither
conductor is guaranteed to be near earth potential, which again
makes any differentiation of which pole is live completely
meaningless. So your statement is completely wrong.

"improved safety of the ring" Where? A radial circuit with RCBOs, tripping
on neutral and live, on each circuit is much safer. The UK ring system

You have to switch both poles when you don't have a live and neutral.

trips on 32A and only the live. Most new Continental systems have RCBOs.

No they don't.

Fires in the UK are caused by the same problem. Most homes I see have
trailing extension leads, especially around computers, TVs, etc. Most homes
need banks of 6 wall of sockets Do you see them?

Many of the radial schemes limit the number of sockets you are
permitted on one circuit. This makes it much more complicated to
add extra sockets, as you'll usually find you need a new circuit,
and often a new CU. Hence the very widespread use of trailing
socket blocks and multi-way adaptors on the continent.

There would be. A 16A RCBO at the CU, rather than a 32A RCBO. 1363 relies
on old hat fuses in plug tops.

BS1363 limits the effects of a fault to the faulty appliance.

If I did a re-wire, it would have radials and RCBOs. RCBOs are cheap in the
likes of France and buying a CU complete with them (Legrand for e.g.), they
are "much" cheaper than the UK, where RCBOs are extortionate.

I've never once seen an RCBO in France, and Legrand don't even
appear to sell them in France (although they do in the UK).
The french do have whole-house RCD's though, and as they are part
of the suppliers works, you can't remove them. Although they are
rated 500mA, an earth fault whilst you are on holiday will result
in thawed freezer and dead tropical fish, etc.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Because you end up needing at least half a dozen circuits per floor
just for sockets,

So that is 8 x 6 which 48 sockets. A lot of sockets per floor.

When you have a couple of non RCD protected circuits for fixed
appliances and vulnerable equipment, that sounds quite reasonable.
Especially as with a 16A design load you will need one circuit per major
kitchen appliance. You end up with lots of redundant copper with a
slight reduction in performance of the circuit under fault conditions.

with all the cost and wiring complexity that entails.

Ah cost!! Yes rings are cheap....and nasty.

According only to you it seems. Rings circuits are cost effective and
good design.

You are also stuck with no more practical load than one high current
device per circuit - a right PITA in a kitchen for example.

In a kitchen individual circuit for high load appliances is a great
advantage in many ways.

Explain?

Whole house RCDs were briefly allowed in the 15th edition IIUC. So
since that covered the '80s basically, the scope when that was
acceptable was limited. It fairly soon became apparent that it was
not a good solution.

I have seen them on new builds of only 5 years ago and less.

Are you:
1) Sure you know what you were looking at

Yes. A CU.

Split load?

2) Sure it was not a TT install
3) Not just making up this stuff like normal

I know what I see, You make things up as you are from Essex.

Yet you seem incapable of explaining it... odd really.

They can, but rarely if ever do in the absence of a fault. I don't
recall the last time I need to replace a fuse for a non faulty
appliance.

But can do and behind an appliance.

can in theory. I have never had it happen.

I have.

You fitted the wrong fuse no doubt.

In fact I have not had a fuse blow in anything in the last 15 years
that I can recall.

Lucky man. How about the RCSs tripping the whole house when a 230V
downlighter blows. Great eh!!!

Use of whole house RCDs is deprecated. Use of RCDs on lighting circuits
is contra to regulations, user of RCD protection on circuits offering
little direct contact possibility is also not required.

Blowing lamps will not take out a RCD unless it is already close to its
leakage budget due to too many or inappropriate appliances being fed
from it. Something I guess you are about recommend....

What and lower our standards and safety record to match theirs you
mean?

Theirs superior.

Figures?

Still waiting...

Look at the systems. Theirs is superior. Not a cheap ring effort to
reduce MCBs. and have a small CU.

Superior by having lower quality accessories, built with less stringent
quality control. A myriad of ways of incorrectly mating a plug with a
socket, and a higher accident rate. All while consuming a significant
amount of extra copper.

Could you elaborate on your definition of "superior"?

Here you would throw the switch above the counter marked
"Dishwasher", seems somewhat better to me.

Which looks crap and is not an RCBO.

You are aware that there is no particular advantage to having RCD
protection on fixed appliances such as dishwashers? (TT excepted)

There IS!!!!!!!!

Not really:

1) The RCDs primary purpose is to protect the user from direct contact
shocks[1]. The direct contact risk from a dishwasher or washing machine
or immersion heater is pretty much nil.

2) Correct earthing (and the higher integrity of ring circuit earthing
helps here) gives adequate protection against indirect contact shocks.

3) Appliances such as those mentioned can have high leakage do to their
mineral insulated heater elements. This can result in sensitisation of a
RCD, which in turn can lead to nuisance tripping problems.

[1] TT Systems excepted

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Installing a whole re-wi ring circuit vs a German/Dutch radial
circuit. The ring will be much cheaper. The prime reason it is used.

The reasons its used:

More flexibility
Better fault tolerance, and less fire risk
Easier to install
Less materials
7.2kW load capacity
Over current and fault current protection accurately matching the needs
of the connected appliances and the circuit.
Better discrimination on appliance overcurrent.

Oh, and you are right, it is cheaper as well. A win win win win win win
win win win situation as you would say.

The accident statistics do not support your claims either.

The Dutch safety record is half of ours.

Recorded using what criteria?

What about the German and French that use similar systems to the Dutch
with dramatically poorer results?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Doctor Drivel wrote:

A characteristic of many continental installations is that there are
a smaller number of sockets in a house than for a house of similar
age in the UK and consequently much more use of trailing extensions.

Not the fault of the radial system.

It is partly. The cost of providing adequate socket outlets to match
modern patterns of usage using this method is too high. Hence installers
tend not to.

These are inherently more hazardous than wall sockets and contribute
to far more fires of electric origin than does fixed wiring. The
lack of any form of appliance lead protection coupled with high trip
currents

High trip current? 16A MCBs or RCBOs on 8 sockets is not high. If a
simple fuse fails in a plug the protection is a 32A MCB (or fuse)

Tricky to draw current through a failed fuse....

also makes fires caused by equipment failure more common on
the continent than in the UK.

All countries using the CEE 7/4 (Shuko) plugs tend to have a number
of child fatalities each year caused by objects being poked into the
unprotected openings. The UK has virtually no such accidents with
the shielded 13A socket.

There are unprotected openings now in some sockets I have seen. And the
cheap contractors will use them. I have seen fuseless plug too (I
suspect illegal imports, not sure).

Fuseless plugs to BS 1363 three pin form factor are not legal to sell in
the UK.

Un-shuttered sockets are also not acceptable for general use.

"553-01-04 Every socket-outlet for household and similar use shall be of
the shuttered type and, for an a.c. installation, shall preferably be of
a type complying with BS 1363."

(with limited exceptions allowed by 553-01-05)

Another issue with the continental two pin plugs is that the wiring
of the live and neutral is random (and even if it were not the plugs
can be inserted any way around).

There is a standard to where live should be connected, but most don't
stick to it.

And you think this is good because?

There is no question that BS 1363 is a fundamentally much safer
system than the Shuko and its variants. This is hardly unexpected as
the Shuko design dates from the 1920's.

The improved safety of the ring over the radial stems largely from
secondary effects of the greater number of fixed sockets and fuse
protection of the appliance lead.

"improved safety of the ring" Where?

Which part of "stems largely from secondary effects of the greater
number of fixed sockets and fuse protection of the appliance lead".
could you not comprehend?

Also consider that of the four most common circuit faults: (vis: high
impedance connection in CPC, high impedance connection in Phase/Neutral,
open circuit in CPC, open circuit in Phase/Neutral), a ring circuit to
modern design will perform better in three out of the four fault scenarios.

A radial circuit with RCBOs,
tripping on neutral and live, on each circuit is much safer. The UK
ring system trips on 32A and only the live. Most new Continental
systems have RCBOs.

Your understanding and nomenclature seems confused.

UK power circuits usually are protected by RCDs. RCDs are double pole
devices not single. MCBs do not operate under direct contact shock
incidents, and hence there is no advantage to them being double pole. We
also keep strict control of circuit polarity and termination.

Together these reduce the number
of fires caused by overloaded and damaged extensions.

Fires in the UK are caused by the same problem. Most homes I see have
trailing extension leads, especially around computers, TVs, etc. Most
homes need banks of 6 wall of sockets Do you see them?

You seem to be confusing trip hazard with fire hazard.

Fire hazard in continental wiring is perhaps more likely to be caused
by the shoddy quality of their plugs and sockets, however the main risks
will be similar to ours (unlike when compared to the significantly
greater fire risk posed by US style installations and wiring practice)

There is of course nothing to stop you wiring a BS1363 layout in
radial form -
but there would be no advantage in doing so.

There would be. A 16A RCBO at the CU, rather than a 32A RCBO. 1363
relies on old hat fuses in plug tops.

The internal fusing of BS1363 is one of the reasons for its greater
safety and why many countries have adopted it.

There is nothing "old hat" about fuses. There are many situations where
they will be preferable to MCBs for example.

You neglect that RCBO protection can be employed on a per circuit basis
here as well.

If I did a re-wire, it would have radials and RCBOs. RCBOs are cheap in
the likes of France and buying a CU complete with them (Legrand for
e.g.), they are "much" cheaper than the UK, where RCBOs are extortionate.

If you are going to rewire anything (especially in dodgy French
accessories), please have the courtesy to warn your neighbours in good
time so that they can move. Also you will need to keep it all well away
from any of your plumbing, because I think you will find that none of
the systems are submersible.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The french do have whole-house RCD's though, and as they are part
of the suppliers works, you can't remove them. Although they are
rated 500mA, an earth fault whilst you are on holiday will result
in thawed freezer and dead tropical fish, etc.

And at 500mA offer no direct contact protection either.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2007-08-28 01:23:46 +0100, John Rumm said:

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Because you end up needing at least half a dozen circuits per floor
just for sockets,

So that is 8 x 6 which 48 sockets. A lot of sockets per floor.

When you have a couple of non RCD protected circuits for fixed
appliances and vulnerable equipment, that sounds quite reasonable.
Especially as with a 16A design load you will need one circuit per
major kitchen appliance. You end up with lots of redundant copper with
a slight reduction in performance of the circuit under fault conditions.

with all the cost and wiring complexity that entails.

Ah cost!! Yes rings are cheap....and nasty.

According only to you it seems. Rings circuits are cost effective and
good design.


If it were Easter time, the notion of "Lord forgive them for they know
not what they do" would spring to mind......

On 2007-08-27 22:29:54 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

BS1363 family is the most recently designed domestic plug and
socket system in the world. It was the result of some 10 years
of competition between manufacturers to design a new standard.
It has been adopted in whole or part by more countries in the
world than any other domestic plug and socket standard.

The US plugs are used in North and South America and other countries
too. Also because of the large population in the US more people use
their systems than ours. Those who adopted the British systems tend to
be ex empire countries, choosing a mother country system rather one on
technical merits.

So you believe that the U.S. system has technical merits?

Have a wander around the electrical section in Home Depot. Even you
would be shocked.

They have plastic plumbing as well, but there are pipe slicers in the
section where it is sld, I am pleased to report. There is a sign
saying "No Hacksaws" in English and Spanish.

On 2007-08-28 00:02:01 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

I must be bored, as I find myself replying to a Drivel posting...

Tablets are available on the NHS.



In article ews.net,
"Doctor Drivel" writes:

High trip current? 16A MCBs or RCBOs on 8 sockets is not high. If a simple
fuse fails in a plug the protection is a 32A MCB (or fuse)

The beauty of a simple fuse is that it doesn't fail.
If it blows, you know exactly which appliance caused it to do so, as
it's tied to the appliance. When a continental circuit blows, you have
no idea which appliance did it (unless one of them is also emitting
smoke), nor if it's a faulty appliance or if you just overloaded the
circuit (which is also all too easy to do) or if it's a faulty circuit.
UK system handles that much better, which is not surprising as it's a
newer design which was intended to avoid that problem.

There are unprotected openings now in some sockets I have seen.

No there aren't.

This is true.



There is a standard to where live should be connected, but most don't stick
to it.

Considering the two most common continental sockets, the Shucko
has a completely reversible plug, so wiring up the socket in any
particular way would be pointless. The French/Belgium plug isn't
reversible in the same way, but you'll find each socket on a double
socket or 2-way adaptor is hard-wired the opposite way around, so
there's no standard there either. Furthermore, some areas which
use these connectors don't have a live and neutral, as neither
conductor is guaranteed to be near earth potential, which again
makes any differentiation of which pole is live completely
meaningless. So your statement is completely wrong.

"improved safety of the ring" Where? A radial circuit with RCBOs, tripping
on neutral and live, on each circuit is much safer. The UK ring system

You have to switch both poles when you don't have a live and neutral.

trips on 32A and only the live. Most new Continental systems have RCBOs.

No they don't.

This is also true.




Fires in the UK are caused by the same problem. Most homes I see have
trailing extension leads, especially around computers, TVs, etc. Most homes
need banks of 6 wall of sockets Do you see them?

Many of the radial schemes limit the number of sockets you are
permitted on one circuit. This makes it much more complicated to
add extra sockets, as you'll usually find you need a new circuit,
and often a new CU. Hence the very widespread use of trailing
socket blocks and multi-way adaptors on the continent.

There would be. A 16A RCBO at the CU, rather than a 32A RCBO. 1363 relies
on old hat fuses in plug tops.

BS1363 limits the effects of a fault to the faulty appliance.

If I did a re-wire, it would have radials and RCBOs. RCBOs are cheap in the
likes of France and buying a CU complete with them (Legrand for e.g.), they
are "much" cheaper than the UK, where RCBOs are extortionate.

I've never once seen an RCBO in France, and Legrand don't even
appear to sell them in France (although they do in the UK).

No they don't. There are bucket loads of MCBs and large consumer units
as one would expect.

The french do have whole-house RCD's though, and as they are part
of the suppliers works, you can't remove them. Although they are
rated 500mA, an earth fault whilst you are on holiday will result
in thawed freezer and dead tropical fish, etc.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

If it were Easter time, the notion of "Lord forgive them for they know not
what they do" would spring to mind......

Yes, the rest of the world needs forgiving.

In article ,
Huge writes:

On a related topic...

We once looked at a house that belonged to some American ex-pats who had
installed a parallel wiring system, using US sockets, with a gigantic 220-110V
transformer in the cellar to provide the 110V 'leccy.

Is this legal?

This wouldn't conform to the regs, but that doesn't necessarily make
it illegal.

Apparently you can choose to use the regs of any EU country in any
other EU country if both have harmonised their regs. UK and France
have done this, and a friend's parents wired up their french holiday
home to UK regs. Quite surprisingly, EDF who came to wire in the new
consumer unit were fully aware of this too, and had no problem with
it.

US wiring doesn't come close to meeting any of the EU country
standards though. Back in the 1980's, BT applied for type approval
of the US socket in the EU. It got a max rating of 50V, 2.5A (or
that's what it would have got -- don't know if they persued it).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Because you end up needing at least half a dozen circuits per floor just
for sockets,

So that is 8 x 6 which 48 sockets. A lot of sockets per floor.

When you have a couple of non RCD protected circuits for fixed appliances
and vulnerable equipment, that sounds quite reasonable.

The reason for non-RCD protected circuits is not to trip out the whole house
and protect fridges, freezers, etc from thawing. Using RCBOs on "every"
circuit you have is a far superior system. Modern radials tend to have
RCBOs on them.

Especially as with a 16A design load you will need one circuit per major
kitchen appliance. You end up with lots of redundant copper with a slight
reduction in performance of the circuit under fault conditions.

with all the cost and wiring complexity that entails.

Ah cost!! Yes rings are cheap....and nasty.

According only to you it seems.

No. Anyone with common sense and looks at them. If they are so wonderful
why hasn't the whole world adopted them?

Rings circuits are cost effective and good design.

Cheapo, and not as good as radial with RCBOs on each circuit.

You are also stuck with no more practical load than one high current
device per circuit - a right PITA in a kitchen for example.

In a kitchen individual circuit for high load appliances is a great
advantage in many ways.

Explain?

If you can't figure that out by now.....

Whole house RCDs were briefly allowed in the 15th edition IIUC. So
since that covered the '80s basically, the scope when that was
acceptable was limited. It fairly soon became apparent that it was not
a good solution.

I have seen them on new builds of only 5 years ago and less.

Are you:
1) Sure you know what you were looking at

Yes. A CU.

Split load?

No. An RCD on all circuits.

2) Sure it was not a TT install
3) Not just making up this stuff like normal

I know what I see, You make things up as you are from Essex.

Yet you seem incapable of explaining it... odd really.

See above.

They can, but rarely if ever do in the absence of a fault. I don't
recall the last time I need to replace a fuse for a non faulty
appliance.

But can do and behind an appliance.

can in theory. I have never had it happen.

I have.

You fitted the wrong fuse no doubt.

It can happen.....and did.

In fact I have not had a fuse blow in anything in the last 15 years that
I can recall.

Lucky man. How about the RCDs tripping the whole house when a 230V
downlighter blows. Great eh!!!

Use of whole house RCDs is deprecated. Use of RCDs on lighting circuits is
contra to regulations, user of RCD protection on circuits offering little
direct contact possibility is also not required.

Kitchen cabinet lighting is rarely on the 6A lighting circuit.

Blowing lamps will not take out a RCD unless it is already close to its
leakage budget due to too many or inappropriate appliances being fed from
it. Something I guess you are about recommend....

230V downlights take out the RCD when they fail.

What and lower our standards and safety record to match theirs you
mean?

Theirs superior.

Figures?

Still waiting...

Look at the systems. Theirs is superior. Not a cheap ring effort to
reduce MCBs. and have a small CU.

Superior by having lower quality accessories,

I have seen high quality accessories in Germany, Holland, etc. Get what you
pay for, etc, etc.

built with less stringent quality control.

EU standards.

A myriad of ways of incorrectly mating a plug with a socket, and a higher
accident rate. All while consuming a significant amount of extra copper.

Could you elaborate on your definition of "superior"?

You are losing it now.

Here you would throw the switch above the counter marked "Dishwasher",
seems somewhat better to me.

Which looks crap and is not an RCBO.

You are aware that there is no particular advantage to having RCD
protection on fixed appliances such as dishwashers? (TT excepted)

There IS!!!!!!!!

Not really:

1) The RCDs primary purpose is to protect the user from direct contact
shocks[1]. The direct contact risk from a dishwasher or washing machine or
immersion heater is pretty much nil.

It is? Nil? If only.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Installing a whole re-wi ring circuit vs a German/Dutch radial
circuit. The ring will be much cheaper. The prime reason it is used.

The reasons its used:

More flexibility

= cheaper

Better fault tolerance,

= less safer.

and less fire risk

You are having a laugh now.

Easier to install

= cheaper.

Less materials

= cheaper.

7.2kW load capacity

Unnecessary and no need for such high currents on domestic socket circuits.

Over current and fault current protection accurately matching the needs of
the connected appliances and the circuit.

You what?

Better discrimination on appliance overcurrent.

Nonsense.

Oh, and you are right, it is cheaper as well. A win win win win win win
win win win situation as you would say.

yes, a win, win for cheapos

The accident statistics do not support your claims either.

The Dutch safety record is half of ours.

Recorded using what criteria?

Look it up.

What about the German and French that use similar systems to the Dutch
with dramatically poorer results?

A poor culture towards safety. French and German radial using RCBOs on each
circuit are superior to our ring circuit socket crap.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-27 22:29:54 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

BS1363 family is the most recently designed domestic plug and
socket system in the world. It was the result of some 10 years
of competition between manufacturers to design a new standard.
It has been adopted in whole or part by more countries in the
world than any other domestic plug and socket standard.

The US plugs are used in North and South America and other countries too.
Also because of the large population in the US more people use their
systems than ours. Those who adopted the British systems tend to be ex
empire countries, choosing a mother country system rather one on
technical merits.

So you believe that the U.S. system has technical merits?

Matt, you must read what I wrote...if you can of course.

Have a wander around the electrical section in Home Depot. Even you
would be shocked.

They have plastic plumbing as well, but there are pipe slicers in the
section where it is sld, I am pleased to report. There is a sign saying
"No Hacksaws" in English and Spanish.

They don't sell hacksaws? Cut them with an axe?

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
I must be bored, as I find myself replying to a Drivel posting...

In article ews.net,
"Doctor Drivel" writes:

High trip current? 16A MCBs or RCBOs on 8 sockets is not high. If a
simple
fuse fails in a plug the protection is a 32A MCB (or fuse)

The beauty of a simple fuse is that it doesn't fail.
If it blows, you know exactly which appliance caused it to do so, as
it's tied to the appliance. When a continental circuit blows, you have
no idea which appliance did it (unless one of them is also emitting
smoke), nor if it's a faulty appliance or if you just overloaded the
circuit (which is also all too easy to do) or if it's a faulty circuit.
UK system handles that much better, which is not surprising as it's a
newer design which was intended to avoid that problem.

The major problem with the British system is that the correct amp rating of
fuse can be omitted, and frequently is, with a larger rating fitted; 13A.
Frequenetly a desklanp is on a 13A fuse.

There are unprotected openings now in some sockets I have seen.

No there aren't.

Many do not have the earth pin open the gate, pushing in a knife will open
it.

There is a standard to where live should be connected, but most don't
stick
to it.

Considering the two most common continental sockets, the Shucko
has a completely reversible plug, so wiring up the socket in any
particular way would be pointless. The French/Belgium plug isn't
reversible in the same way, but you'll find each socket on a double
socket or 2-way adaptor is hard-wired the opposite way around, so
there's no standard there either. Furthermore, some areas which
use these connectors don't have a live and neutral, as neither
conductor is guaranteed to be near earth potential, which again
makes any differentiation of which pole is live completely
meaningless. So your statement is completely wrong.

"improved safety of the ring" Where? A radial circuit with RCBOs,
tripping
on neutral and live, on each circuit is much safer. The UK ring system

You have to switch both poles when you don't have a live and neutral.

trips on 32A and only the live. Most new Continental systems have RCBOs.

No they don't.

New builds do.

Fires in the UK are caused by the same problem. Most homes I see have
trailing extension leads, especially around computers, TVs, etc. Most
homes
need banks of 6 wall of sockets Do you see them?

Many of the radial schemes limit the number of sockets you are
permitted on one circuit. This makes it much more complicated to
add extra sockets, as you'll usually find you need a new circuit,
and often a new CU. Hence the very widespread use of trailing
socket blocks and multi-way adaptors on the continent.

There would be. A 16A RCBO at the CU, rather than a 32A RCBO. 1363
relies
on old hat fuses in plug tops.

BS1363 limits the effects of a fault to the faulty appliance.

If I did a re-wire, it would have radials and RCBOs. RCBOs are cheap in
the
likes of France and buying a CU complete with them (Legrand for e.g.),
they
are "much" cheaper than the UK, where RCBOs are extortionate.

I've never once seen an RCBO in France, and Legrand don't even
appear to sell them in France (although they do in the UK).

They do sell them in France.

The french do have whole-house RCD's though, and as they are part
of the suppliers works, you can't remove them. Although they are
rated 500mA, an earth fault whilst you are on holiday will result
in thawed freezer and dead tropical fish, etc.

RCBOs vs a whole house RCD is much superior.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-28 00:02:01 +0100, (Andrew Gabriel)
said:

I must be bored, as I find myself replying to a Drivel posting...

Tablets are available on the NHS.

Matt, what colour did they give you?

On 28 Aug 2007 10:40:20 GMT someone who may be Huge
wrote this:-

(Incidentally, we had the poles (*) & overhead from our house to the 11kV
transformer replaced a couple of months ago, and I was surprised to find out
that the overhead is aluminium.)

Been used for many decades. Obviously not pure aluminium:-)

Restrictions on the use of aluminium conductors inside houses are
entirely sensible, the small conductor sizes make failure more
likely.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 28 Aug 2007 09:56:57 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

US wiring doesn't come close to meeting any of the EU country
standards though. Back in the 1980's, BT applied for type approval
of the US socket in the EU. It got a max rating of 50V, 2.5A

As much as that. Someone must have been feeling generous.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 2007-08-28 10:13:59 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

If it were Easter time, the notion of "Lord forgive them for they know
not what they do" would spring to mind......

Yes, the rest of the world needs forgiving.

A true classic, I must say.....

On 2007-08-28 09:24:40 +0100, Huge said:


On a related topic...

We once looked at a house that belonged to some American ex-pats who had
installed a parallel wiring system, using US sockets, with a gigantic 220-110V
transformer in the cellar to provide the 110V 'leccy.

Is this legal?

(We didn't buy the house - not because of the wacky electrics, though.)

I have two 110v systems in the workshop.

One is used to run various chargers etc. at a charging station in one
corner and uses an autotransformer. I bought the best power strip
that I could find for that one using the convnetional U.S. sockets

The other uses a site transformer and feeds a 110v wiring system
installed throught the 3-compartment trunking. I have the yellow IEC
outlets for that, and the power to it is controlled by a contactor.
These are not very efficient transformers so I want to turn it off.

On 2007-08-28 11:46:18 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-08-28 00:02:01 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

I must be bored, as I find myself replying to a Drivel posting...

Tablets are available on the NHS.

Matt, what colour did they give you?

They're all white ones but at least I don't pay.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-28 10:13:59 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

If it were Easter time, the notion of "Lord forgive them for they know
not what they do" would spring to mind......

Yes, the rest of the world needs forgiving.

A true classic, I must say.....

Matt, I am a classical person. I have class.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-28 11:46:18 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-28 00:02:01 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

I must be bored, as I find myself replying to a Drivel posting...

Tablets are available on the NHS.

Matt, what colour did they give you?

They're all white ones but at least I don't pay.

Do they force them down your throat?

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

BS1363 family is the most recently designed domestic plug and
socket system in the world. It was the result of some 10 years
of competition between manufacturers to design a new standard.
It has been adopted in whole or part by more countries in the
world than any other domestic plug and socket standard. The
standard has been further improved a number of times over its
60 year history, and the mandatory testing required is very
rigorous.

The rather low maximum current rating (13 amperes) coupled with the use of
flat, rather than round pins is alleged to be a design flaw by some as being
inadequate for heavy duty applications such as three kilowatt electric
heaters or large tumble driers especially on 230 or even 220 volt systems
(220 V is the pre-harmonisation standard in both Northern Ireland and the
Republic of Ireland). Those who attempt to use 13 A plugs (particularly poor
quality ones) with such appliances often find after a while that either the
pins or the fuse overheat to the extent that the plastic around the pins
becomes discoloured. At 220 volts, a 13.64 amp current will be drawn to
supply an appliance with three kilowatts of power.

While 13 A (@ 220-240 V) is indeed inferior than the 15/16 A available on
some systems it still has more capacity than the 10 Amp plugs used in some
countries or the American NEMA 15 A (but 100-120 volt) system which only
provides for appliances up to 1800 watts (at 120 V)

BS 1363 plugs are also considered bulky and most people find them very
fiddly to wire (particularly when an appliance has thick conductors) because
of the internal dimensions and layout (although this varies somewhat with
the design of individual plugs). However since the late 1980s all domestic
electrical goods sold in the UK are sold with plugs pre-fitted, under
Government regulations. If the length of all conductors from the outer
sleeving is made the same, then the first conductor to pull out of a plug
(should the cord grip fail) is the Earth, leaving the equipment in a likely
functioning but dangerous state. Sometimes plugs carry advice on the lengths
to which the individual wires should be cut, to prevent this risk.

On 2007-08-28 19:25:36 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-08-28 10:13:59 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

If it were Easter time, the notion of "Lord forgive them for they know
not what they do" would spring to mind......

Yes, the rest of the world needs forgiving.

A true classic, I must say.....

Matt, I am a classical person. I have class.

Yes I know. Do you see yourself in the genre of Mozart, or are you
more like Brahms?

On 2007-08-28 19:28:00 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-08-28 11:46:18 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-08-28 00:02:01 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

I must be bored, as I find myself replying to a Drivel posting...

Tablets are available on the NHS.

Matt, what colour did they give you?

They're all white ones but at least I don't pay.

Do they force them down your throat?

No it's completely voluntary. They are only small ones though, and
come in foil wrappers with the day of the week. Quite good really,
because it saves having to set the calendar on the Vacheron Constantin

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-28 19:25:36 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-28 10:13:59 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

If it were Easter time, the notion of "Lord forgive them for they know
not what they do" would spring to mind......

Yes, the rest of the world needs forgiving.

A true classic, I must say.....

Matt, I am a classical person. I have class.

Yes I know. Do you see yourself in the genre of Mozart, or are you more
like Brahms?

You are obviously Brahms & List.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-28 19:28:00 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-28 11:46:18 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-28 00:02:01 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

I must be bored, as I find myself replying to a Drivel posting...

Tablets are available on the NHS.

Matt, what colour did they give you?

They're all white ones but at least I don't pay.

Do they force them down your throat?

No it's completely voluntary.

Good. They have made progress with you.

They are only small ones though, and come in foil wrappers with the day of
the week.

Do they have Teletubbies on them too?


Quite good really, because it saves having to set the calendar on the
Vacheron Constantin

On 2007-08-28 21:42:09 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-08-28 19:25:36 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-08-28 10:13:59 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

If it were Easter time, the notion of "Lord forgive them for they know
not what they do" would spring to mind......

Yes, the rest of the world needs forgiving.

A true classic, I must say.....

Matt, I am a classical person. I have class.

Yes I know. Do you see yourself in the genre of Mozart, or are you
more like Brahms?

You are obviously Brahms & List.

I wish

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:58:54 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

The rather low maximum current rating (13 amperes) coupled with the use of
flat, rather than round pins is alleged to be a design flaw by some as being
inadequate for heavy duty applications such as three kilowatt electric
heaters or large tumble driers especially on 230 or even 220 volt systems
(220 V is the pre-harmonisation standard in both Northern Ireland and the
Republic of Ireland).

I thought this was a somewhat more mature use of English than dear
old dribble can manage, it appears the child has discovered
Wikipedia.

What a pity he missed the header for this particular section and most
of his quotation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1363 which states
"The factual accuracy of this section is disputed."

For some reason he also forgot (from the undisputed part)
"Putting the fuse in the plug also allows a range of ratings to be
fitted providing superior protection for smaller flexes."

"This plug is often described as the safest in the world"


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:58:54 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

The rather low maximum current rating (13 amperes) coupled with the use of
flat, rather than round pins is alleged to be a design flaw by some as
being
inadequate for heavy duty applications such as three kilowatt electric
heaters or large tumble driers especially on 230 or even 220 volt systems
(220 V is the pre-harmonisation standard in both Northern Ireland and the
Republic of Ireland).

I thought this was a somewhat more mature use of English than dear
old dribble can manage, it appears the child has discovered
Wikipedia.

My English is much superior.,,and this counters you wonderness of the plug.

What a pity he missed the header for this particular section and most
of his quotation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1363 which states
"The factual accuracy of this section is disputed."

It maybe.

For some reason he also forgot (from the undisputed part)
"Putting the fuse in the plug also allows a range of ratings to be
fitted providing superior protection for smaller flexes."

It does, but the range can be over what is safe for the flex - very easily
done and 50% of the time the wrong fuse is in the plug

"This plug is often described as the safest in the world"

Which doesn't say much for the others. The best of a bad bunch.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Installing a whole re-wi ring circuit vs a German/Dutch radial
circuit. The ring will be much cheaper. The prime reason it is used.

The reasons its used:

More flexibility

= cheaper

Better able to place sockets where required and in the quantity
required. Nothing to do with price.

Better fault tolerance,

= less safer.

No, it means it is less likely to pose a shock or fire risk in the
presence of the most common faults.

and less fire risk

You are having a laugh now.

Only at you. Less fire risk, since there is lower current passed through
high resistance connections, and the BS1363 accessories are certified by
stringent standard to carry full design load. Unlike many shuko style
accessories for example.

Easier to install

= cheaper.

Lower labour costs certainly. It also encourages creation of more useful
circuit layouts since they are less difficult to wire.

Less materials

= cheaper.

And lower environmental impact.

7.2kW load capacity

Unnecessary and no need for such high currents on domestic socket circuits.

Average kitchen: Washing Machine, Dish Washer, Toaster, Kettle,
Microwave etc. That alone could be pushing 11kW. Now what was the
nonsense you spouted again?

Over current and fault current protection accurately matching the
needs of the connected appliances and the circuit.

You what?

Overcurrent protection for each and every appliance selected at a level
appropriate for the appliance and not the circuit that feeds it. One ogf
the great benefits of fused plugs.

Fault protection can be provided independently of appliance protection
(and with discrimination), and can be designed so as to be appropriate
for the circuit.

Better discrimination on appliance overcurrent.

Nonsense.

If your appliance develops a fault and draws excessive current, it will
blow its plug fuse. Hence perfect discrimination. With a 16A radial and
no plug fuse you are relying on the circuit protection to operate; even
on a 500W appliance.

Oh, and you are right, it is cheaper as well. A win win win win win
win win win win situation as you would say.

yes, a win, win for cheapos

Cheaper and better in almost every respect. Good, you are learning.

The accident statistics do not support your claims either.

The Dutch safety record is half of ours.

Recorded using what criteria?

Look it up.

So you don't know. Thought so.

What about the German and French that use similar systems to the Dutch
with dramatically poorer results?

A poor culture towards safety. French and German radial using RCBOs on
each circuit are superior to our ring circuit socket crap.

I don't believe you think that for a moment. You are just trying to
argue for the sake of it.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Doctor Drivel wrote:

The major problem with the British system is that the correct amp rating
of fuse can be omitted, and frequently is, with a larger rating fitted;
13A. Frequenetly a desklanp is on a 13A fuse.

And you are advocating placing it on a circuit with only 16A protection?

Only a fool uses the wrong fuse, for the rest of use there are 3A or
even 1A fuses.

There are unprotected openings now in some sockets I have seen.

No there aren't.

Many do not have the earth pin open the gate, pushing in a knife will
open it.

Why don't you give it a try and report back.

The french do have whole-house RCD's though, and as they are part
of the suppliers works, you can't remove them. Although they are
rated 500mA, an earth fault whilst you are on holiday will result
in thawed freezer and dead tropical fish, etc.

RCBOs vs a whole house RCD is much superior.

Of course. What is your point?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

BS1363 family is the most recently designed domestic plug and
socket system in the world. It was the result of some 10 years
of competition between manufacturers to design a new standard.
It has been adopted in whole or part by more countries in the
world than any other domestic plug and socket standard. The
standard has been further improved a number of times over its
60 year history, and the mandatory testing required is very
rigorous.

The rather low maximum current rating (13 amperes) coupled with the use

Odd, you said that was high current a few posts back.

of flat, rather than round pins is alleged to be a design flaw by some
as being inadequate for heavy duty applications such as three kilowatt
electric heaters or large tumble driers especially on 230 or even 220

2.8kW is about the most you will be able to draw on 220V supply.

volt systems (220 V is the pre-harmonisation standard in both Northern
Ireland and the Republic of Ireland). Those who attempt to use 13 A
plugs (particularly poor quality ones) with such appliances often find
after a while that either the pins or the fuse overheat to the extent
that the plastic around the pins becomes discoloured. At 220 volts, a
13.64 amp current will be drawn to supply an appliance with three
kilowatts of power.

At 220V the appliance will not draw 3kW (assuming it is a non reactive
load). The design headroom in our plugs is such that they will supply
15A or more without damage.

The time when you are most likely to get localised heating on a plug is
when either the connections inside it have not been made well enough, or
more typically the socket or plug pins are tarnished or dirty. This can
effect any plug and socket system , although the larger contact surface
or our plugs does help mitigate this.

While 13 A (@ 220-240 V) is indeed inferior than the 15/16 A available

Many 16A radial circuit systems use plugs rated at only 10A. Hence
maximum power in many cases is only 2.2kW

on some systems it still has more capacity than the 10 Amp plugs used in
some countries or the American NEMA 15 A (but 100-120 volt) system which
only provides for appliances up to 1800 watts (at 120 V)

The American system provided 110-0-110 into the house. So you can string
heavy fixed appliances across "hot and cold" rather than one side and
neutral.

BS 1363 plugs are also considered bulky and most people find them very
fiddly to wire (particularly when an appliance has thick conductors)

One of the enhancements to the system was the compulsory fitting of
plugs by the manufacturers. Making this a moot point for most users.

Shuko plugs are no easier to wire, and things like IEC plugs are very
much harder.

because of the internal dimensions and layout (although this varies
somewhat with the design of individual plugs). However since the late
1980s all domestic electrical goods sold in the UK are sold with plugs
pre-fitted, under Government regulations. If the length of all
conductors from the outer sleeving is made the same, then the first
conductor to pull out of a plug (should the cord grip fail) is the
Earth, leaving the equipment in a likely functioning but dangerous

If they were the same then they would all pull out together. However the
requirement is that the earth wire has more slack that the phase and
neutral conductors to eliminate this possibility.

state. Sometimes plugs carry advice on the lengths to which the
individual wires should be cut, to prevent this risk.

Yes grandma.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Installing a whole re-wi ring circuit vs a German/Dutch radial
circuit. The ring will be much cheaper. The prime reason it is used.

The reasons its used:

More flexibility

= cheaper

Better able to place sockets where required and in the quantity required.
Nothing to do with price.

Better fault tolerance,

= less safer.

No, it means it is less likely to pose a shock or fire risk in the
presence of the most common faults.

Nonsense.

and less fire risk

You are having a laugh now.

Only at you. Less fire risk, since there is lower current passed through
high resistance connections, and the BS1363 accessories are certified by
stringent standard to carry full design load. Unlike many shuko style
accessories for example.

Easier to install

= cheaper.

Lower labour costs certainly. It also encourages creation of more useful
circuit layouts since they are less difficult to wire.

Less materials

= cheaper.

And lower environmental impact.

7.2kW load capacity

Unnecessary and no need for such high currents on domestic socket
circuits.

Average kitchen: Washing Machine, Dish Washer, Toaster, Kettle, Microwave
etc. That alone could be pushing 11kW. Now what was the nonsense you
spouted again?

On a radial, Washing Machine & Dish Washer will have their own MCB at the
CU - safer.

Over current and fault current protection accurately matching the needs
of the connected appliances and the circuit.

You what?

Overcurrent protection for each and every appliance selected at a level
appropriate for the appliance and not the circuit that feeds it. One ogf
the great benefits of fused plugs.

if the fuse is the correct rating, which few are.

Fault protection can be provided independently of appliance protection
(and with discrimination), and can be designed so as to be appropriate for
the circuit.

Better discrimination on appliance overcurrent.

Nonsense.

If your appliance develops a fault and draws excessive current, it will
blow its plug fuse. Hence perfect discrimination. With a 16A radial and no
plug fuse you are relying on the circuit protection to operate; even on a
500W appliance.

On radials many appliances have their own fuses, not relying on home owners
to select the correct rating.

Oh, and you are right, it is cheaper as well. A win win win win win win
win win win situation as you would say.

yes, a win, win for cheapos

Cheaper and better in almost every respect. Good, you are learning.

The accident statistics do not support your claims either.

The Dutch safety record is half of ours.

Recorded using what criteria?

Look it up.

So you don't know. Thought so.

What about the German and French that use similar systems to the Dutch
with dramatically poorer results?

A poor culture towards safety. French and German radial using RCBOs on
each circuit are superior to our ring circuit socket crap.

I don't believe you think that for a moment. You are just trying to argue
for the sake of it.

It seems the UK is in step and all the rest are out of step. The Germans
and Dutch laugh at us. Look at Continental CUs. Professional setup and on
the whole quality products. Look at the cheapo crap in Screwfix

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

The major problem with the British system is that the correct amp rating
of fuse can be omitted, and frequently is, with a larger rating fitted;
13A. Frequenetly a desklanp is on a 13A fuse.

And you are advocating placing it on a circuit with only 16A protection?

16A RCBO protection

Only a fool uses the wrong fuse, for the rest of use there are 3A or even
1A fuses.

Should not be left to the home owner.

There are unprotected openings now in some sockets I have seen.

No there aren't.

Many do not have the earth pin open the gate, pushing in a knife will
open it.

Why don't you give it a try and report back.

You don't know do you?

The french do have whole-house RCD's though, and as they are part
of the suppliers works, you can't remove them. Although they are
rated 500mA, an earth fault whilst you are on holiday will result
in thawed freezer and dead tropical fish, etc.

RCBOs vs a whole house RCD is much superior.

Of course. What is your point?

Read back at everything I wrote - 14 times.

Doctor Drivel wrote:


Better fault tolerance,

= less safer.

No, it means it is less likely to pose a shock or fire risk in the
presence of the most common faults.

Nonsense.

I have already given you concrete technical reasons why shock and fire
risks are reduced for a number of common circuit faults; plus you have
had presented to you details of why our circuit designs result in fewer
trip and fall injuries. Hence you will need to counter with
significantly more effort and reasoning in your reply than that.

Average kitchen: Washing Machine, Dish Washer, Toaster, Kettle,
Microwave etc. That alone could be pushing 11kW. Now what was the
nonsense you spouted again?

On a radial, Washing Machine & Dish Washer will have their own MCB at
the CU - safer.

Explain why you think this is safer?

Over current and fault current protection accurately matching the
needs of the connected appliances and the circuit.

You what?

Overcurrent protection for each and every appliance selected at a
level appropriate for the appliance and not the circuit that feeds it.
One ogf the great benefits of fused plugs.

if the fuse is the correct rating, which few are.

All the fuses in my house are correctly sized for the appliance. Are
things different in yours?

Furthermore the fuse will be installed by the manufacturer, and is
highly unlikely to ever be replaced. Therefore your assertion that "few
are" the correct rating is obviously grossly inaccurate.

Fault protection can be provided independently of appliance protection
(and with discrimination), and can be designed so as to be appropriate
for the circuit.

Better discrimination on appliance overcurrent.

Nonsense.

If your appliance develops a fault and draws excessive current, it
will blow its plug fuse. Hence perfect discrimination. With a 16A
radial and no plug fuse you are relying on the circuit protection to
operate; even on a 500W appliance.

On radials many appliances have their own fuses, not relying on home
owners to select the correct rating.

Appliances frequently have their own fusing anyway - in addition to that
provided in the plug. The fuse in the plug providing primary protection
to the appliance flex. Another reason for the kludgy engineering that
requires appliance flexes in euro land to be sized to take full circuit
current rather than appliance current.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 2007-08-28 23:31:55 +0100, John Rumm said:

Doctor Drivel wrote:

The major problem with the British system is that the correct amp
rating of fuse can be omitted, and frequently is, with a larger rating
fitted; 13A. Frequenetly a desklanp is on a 13A fuse.

And you are advocating placing it on a circuit with only 16A protection?

Only a fool uses the wrong fuse, for the rest of use there are 3A or
even 1A fuses.

There are unprotected openings now in some sockets I have seen.

No there aren't.

Many do not have the earth pin open the gate, pushing in a knife will open it.

Why don't you give it a try and report back.

The french do have whole-house RCD's though, and as they are part
of the suppliers works, you can't remove them. Although they are
rated 500mA, an earth fault whilst you are on holiday will result
in thawed freezer and dead tropical fish, etc.

RCBOs vs a whole house RCD is much superior.

Of course. What is your point?

Do you think he might have got a new job? (i.e. at Newey and Eyre
instead of Plumb Center)