On 2007-08-12 11:23:00 +0100, Timothy Murphy said:

Brian Sharrock wrote:

The F20 is ,IMHO, good: the Road Traffic Module addition makes the F20
excellent.

Slightly OT, but do people really drive off cliffs
because they are following their SatNav,
or is that just an urban myth?

Driving the wrong way up one way streets is a common one because the
maps may not be up to date.

At one point, one of the map vendors had an address of Einbahnstrasse
in Munich as a navigable destination. In reality, it was another
street name, but it was one way. The map maker had made a mistake.

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:23:00 +0100, Timothy Murphy
mused:

Brian Sharrock wrote:

The F20 is ,IMHO, good: the Road Traffic Module addition makes the F20
excellent.

Slightly OT, but do people really drive off cliffs
because they are following their SatNav,
or is that just an urban myth?

Nope, people do do things like that. These people are the people who
shouldn't really be allowed to drive anyway, with or without sat nav.
They don't replace your existing driving skills, you still need to
actually look at road signs.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 07:14:28 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
mused:


"Mike" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 11, 11:46 am, Stephen Howard wrote:
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 07:32:19 +0100, "Ed" wrote:
Which is the best value for money Sat Nav just for U.K use and possibly
for
use in different cars ?? Thanks E

NavMan F20 £110 from the caravan club
Mike

But _do_ purchase the complimentary 'Road Traffic Module' which
transmogrifies the basic F20 into the F40 (=F20 +RTM). When connected an
extra icon appears on the F20's home menu.

Erm...

The F20 is ,IMHO, good: the Road Traffic Module addition makes the F20
excellent.

BTW; Navmand 'do' a F30 (=F20 plus a Bluetooth connector so you can use your
Bluetooth enabled 'phone). I note that the sheds produce Bluetooth enabled
headsets that 'talk' to your ' much cheaper than the delta for the F20+ ....
and one can use the headset without trawling the car about!

Umm....

Strange that .... it must have seemed a good idea when they were setting up
the marketing packages.

Riiiiight. That's all clear then.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

"Ed" wrote in message
...

"Steven Campbell" spam@way wrote in message
...
"Ed" wrote in message
...

"Steven Campbell" spam@way wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ed wrote:
Which is the best value for money Sat Nav just for U.K use and
possibly
for use in different cars ?? Thanks E

I doubt the different cars bit makes much difference as all the car
supplies is the power.

But some cars require external aerials due to having athermic
heat-reflecting windscreens and built-in windscreen heaters which can
block GPS signal reception.
The OP has already posted this request on
alt.consumers.uk-discounts.and.bargains, had several answers and then
chose to ask the same question again on the same thread 12 hours later
so I doubt he'll be back to pick up the responses.

The reason for my multiple post to different groups is that this is the
first one it has come up on on my computer, Obviously you in your wisdom
could advise me why this should be Kind regards E

If you post and it doesn't show, I would try a search on Google groups to
see if it has actually made it.
They made it fine over in alt.consumers.uk-discounts.and.bargains


But not displayed on my Usenet plusnet, whereas on d.i.y all seems to
come up Thanks

It is Plusnet I use. Have you changed the server to news.plus.net as they
recently changed which might explain your problem.
Or try unsubscribing and re-subscribing.

Steven.

"Steven Campbell" spam@way wrote in message
...

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
news

So far mine's worked well and has -to my knowledge- directed me off the
M25 , through some delightful parts of Surrey, and back onto the M25.

Anything that got you off the M25 last Friday would be worth its weight
in gold

Yep; that's basically why I bought it

My only 'complaint' is that the device doesn't take a huge overview!
Fr'instance it'll guide me off a Motorway and attempt to get me back on
with a minimum delay/detour. It doesn't take a strategic overview and say
'hmm, M25's chokka, You want to get to Carlisle ... sod this M25, M40 for
a lark. let's cut across to the A34 and join the Southampton-Midlands
route' .... but hey; I got change from £200 ... how could it be as smart
as me?

TomTom could have done that for you either by "avoid roadblock" for a set
distance or "travel via" or "avoid part of route"

Steven.

To be fair so will the Navman - but that requires buggering about with the
'Preferences'.
But as I said, the devices fundamentally give a minimum detour /delay . When
stopped on say the M25 , it doesn't have an 'instant overview strategic
re-routing facility, unless one plugs in waypoint (via) for 'the Little Chef
at Scotney' .. or ... avoid roadblock for 150 miles.

Your "TomTom could have done that" .. doesn't quite address the 'problem'
..... and of course, neither device knows whether Sw**py will throw another
'party' at Newbury.

--

Brian

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-12 08:29:56 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-11 23:08:27 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Stuart Noble wrote:
I can do many things in this way, but not the essential face to face
meetings

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes
What is it with salesmen that the personal visit is still so vital?

Because all other things being equal, people buy from people they
like, If
things are not equal they still buy from people they like.

That's actually very true.



Only if you're a little old lady

Actually not.

I see people buying from people because they like them virtually every
day. This does not mean, as I think you are trying to suggest, that this
is because they are gullible. Something like 95% of the population
has bought a Lottery ticket - that's what I call gullible.

Keep in mind also that "selling" does not just mean the activity of
somebody who makes their living from arranging and progressing
commercial transactions related to goods and services.

In one way or another, we all sell. It can be ourselves - meaning
what we have to offer and our ideas. Our customers are the people with
whom we interact in one way or another. That can be in the work, social
and home environments.

All of these interactions, including the commercial and non-commercial
ones have a factual and a non-factual component. I tend to think of
the factual part as being "digital" - what is being proposed can be
documented, described and measured in quantifiable terms with all
parties involved being able to make the same determinations. The
non-factual part I think of as being "analogue" - this is the part where
the opinion of the person buying (in the broadest sense) is involved.

There are some transactions (continuing in the broadest sense) that are
mainly digital. Thinking of a related example - let's say I want to buy
a cheap router to connect me to "broadband". There are about 6-10
well-known brands to choose from. I know what I am looking for and can
research the capabilities I want and whether the product does them,
perhaps how well it does them. I don't need the item today, but in the
next day or so. I do want the best price and delivery. Most likely, I
will look on the internet for that and make an on-line purchase. One
decision making criterion may very well be whether the supplier has
provided a timely delivery in the past. There is not much analogue
content in this transaction and so little need for human interaction.
Even if I had decided to buy over the phone, it would tend to be a price
and availability discussion. On the other side, the supplier is making
a small amount of margin contribution on the sale and there is nothing
to fund anything more than this.

However, the largest purchases (still continuing in the broadest sense),
tend to have much more of an analogue content - for example houses,
cars, holidays, home improvements, education, to name but a few.....
Usually there is more at stake either financially or in other ways.
Although many aspects of these can be described and presented in digital
terms, the difference in terms of whether or not a transaction takes
place comes from the buying criteria of the customer. These may be only
from choices made among those that the supplier is presenting, in which
case each customer may have wildly different scorings on each. However,
much more frequently, the customer has issues that may not directly
relate to what is being offered, either because the supplier hasn't
considered them, or because they really are outside the immediate scope
of the offering. Then there are the issues that are not initially
mentioned by the customer or may never be, but which nonetheless make an
important difference in decision making. Politics in all that that
means, be it in a company, some other organisation or even a family can
make a huge difference to outcome.

As a minimum, the person doing the selling (and I am still in the
broadest sense) needs to find out what the purchasing criteria of the
person buying are. If these are entirely or almost entirely from a
"digital" laundry list, that can be done over the phone or by email.
However, even that has to be done carefully. The direct and obvious way
would be to interrogate the customer to find out what the issues are and
hence make sure that they are covered properly. Call centre type
selling does this in a slightly packaged way, but most of us don't like
it, because it's scripted and little or no opportunity to cover issues
that are not part of the script.

Now consider the situation where much more is involved, and/or there is
much more analogue content in the transaction. It's then much more
difficult to identify the issues that actually are important because the
person may not be saying. That can be because they don't want to say,
that the purchase involves more than just them, that they have
additional agendas and dozens of other reasons. It's virtually
impossible to find out about these things other than through a face to
face meeting. Once one gets past the "digital" parts, for which
there is no point in going unless they are satisfied, the rest is
"analogue". Quite often, the important parts of those are only found
out about in the context of some kind of relationship developing between
buyer and seller. For example, the buyer may want the transaction to
take place but is worried about the consequences of something not
working out. Again, there can be loads of issues and loads of people
involved. Some of these people will say that they are important, but
are not; others will say little or nothing but really are the important
ones.

In among all of that lot is the degree to which the buyer(s) like the
seller(s). This is the short way of describing all of the analogue
content of the transaction ranging from the simple one of does the buyer
trust the seller sufficiently to giver him information that he may be
embarrassed about or which used in the wrong way or in the wrong hands
could put him at risk - either actually or just in his own mind. In
terms of an outcome to buy a product, service, idea or anything else,
any of these can facilitate or block what happens.



I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a house,
car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all "digital" to me

In message , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-08-12 11:23:00 +0100, Timothy Murphy said:

Brian Sharrock wrote:

The F20 is ,IMHO, good: the Road Traffic Module addition makes the
F20
excellent.
Slightly OT, but do people really drive off cliffs
because they are following their SatNav,
or is that just an urban myth?

Driving the wrong way up one way streets is a common one because the
maps may not be up to date.

Plugging in the address of a certain golf course brings some very nice
looking cars to an overgrown, narrow and eventually gated by-way.
Nothing wrong with the O.S. data as this is a by-way open to all
traffic, it is just that they have not bothered to check the geography.

The unsuitable for motors and no through road signs at the junction are
not able to override the voice in the car:-)

regards
--
Tim Lamb

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-08-12 11:23:00 +0100, Timothy Murphy
said:

snip

Slightly OT, but do people really drive off cliffs
because they are following their SatNav,
or is that just an urban myth?

Driving the wrong way up one way streets is a common one because the maps
may not be up to date.

Plugging in the address of a certain golf course brings some very nice
looking cars to an overgrown, narrow and eventually gated by-way. Nothing
wrong with the O.S. data as this is a by-way open to all traffic, it is
just that they have not bothered to check the geography.

The unsuitable for motors and no through road signs at the junction are
not able to override the voice in the car:-)

regards
--
Tim Lamb

FWIW: I watched a 'How do they Do That?' style programme on TV about in car
GPS systems.
The map data is , fundamentally derive from the OS, the software companies
purchase this. However they verify the 'map' data by having vehicles
traversing the roads and taking notes.
In the programmers the software company had divided the country into
sections each the responsibility of a team of engineers. The vehicles were
equipped with accurate odometers connected to lap-tops.
As the vehicle traversed the roads an observer noted the road types, even
driving up and down cul-de-sacs and even making recommendation as to the
suitability of turns - one observation was that a 'legal' right turn was too
sharp and it was preferable , more safe' to turn right at the next junction
and back track. The teams returned to the office and amended their routing
algorithms to cater for their observations .As far as I could tell the
software companies go to considerable trouble to make their systems
idiot -proof .... but each time, iteration,... along comes another type of
idiot.

--

Brian

Stuart Noble wrote:


I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a house,
car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all "digital" to me

Its the reverse..when buying my house I bought it as much because I
*disliked* the seller, and that meant I had no compunction about beating
him down to rock bottom price.

Sure it's nice if a buyer likes *you*, but its important to despise him.
That way you get the best money...we used to call it the 'arsehole
premium' - we always added it to customers who we just KNEW were going
to cause trouble..like the one who worked his way through every possible
command in a piece of software and came up with one permutation of
switches on an obscure command that was obsolete before I was born
probably, and wanted to 'get it fixed'..eventually after confirming taht
it didn't work as the manual said, and contacting the authors, who
confirmed that it never had worked, never would work, and really
shouldn't be in the manual as in 15 years no one had ever wanted to use
that particular command sequence..I got back to him and asked the 64,000
dollar question

"What are you trying to achieve with this?"

"Oh, nothing: I just wanted to see if the software worked in every way"

I gave him the options, Full refund, wait for a manual update with the
offending command sequence removed, or what?

"Oh I'll keep it" he said "I only wanted it for XXXX and that works fine"

We also learned that in dealing with the Ford Motor Company, a 15%
"double arsehole" premium should be applied, after having to threaten to
take them to court for IIRC £80K worth of invoice arrears over 6 months
late.

If then a 7.5% discount was applied to payment within 30 days, we had
the satisfaction of both getting paid on time, and also 7.5% standard
revenge premium for people who ****ed us around. Fortunately we had a
monopoloy on that bit of software at that time. AND I had heard stories
from the trade of companies borrowing heavily to get parts made for
FoMoCo and going bankrupt when Ford kept funding fault with them..but
ford never returned the parts...Yuss folks, THATS how they made the MkIV
cortina so cheaply.

In article ,
Timothy Murphy wrote:
Brian Sharrock wrote:

The F20 is ,IMHO, good: the Road Traffic Module addition makes the F20
excellent.

Slightly OT, but do people really drive off cliffs
because they are following their SatNav,
or is that just an urban myth?

Talking to a mate who lives in Hampstead today and he says there was a
stuck 4x4 in the middle of the Heath. Just a private vehicle, he reckoned.
And had no idea how it could possibly have got there. And he's quite used
to strange goings on round there. ;-)

--
*I took an IQ test and the results were negative.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2007-08-12 21:03:27 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-12 08:29:56 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-11 23:08:27 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Stuart Noble wrote:
I can do many things in this way, but not the essential face to face
meetings

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes
What is it with salesmen that the personal visit is still so vital?

Because all other things being equal, people buy from people they like, If
things are not equal they still buy from people they like.

That's actually very true.



Only if you're a little old lady

Actually not.

I see people buying from people because they like them virtually every
day. This does not mean, as I think you are trying to suggest, that
this is because they are gullible. Something like 95% of the
population has bought a Lottery ticket - that's what I call gullible.

Keep in mind also that "selling" does not just mean the activity of
somebody who makes their living from arranging and progressing
commercial transactions related to goods and services.

In one way or another, we all sell. It can be ourselves - meaning
what we have to offer and our ideas. Our customers are the people with
whom we interact in one way or another. That can be in the work,
social and home environments.

All of these interactions, including the commercial and non-commercial
ones have a factual and a non-factual component. I tend to think of
the factual part as being "digital" - what is being proposed can be
documented, described and measured in quantifiable terms with all
parties involved being able to make the same determinations. The
non-factual part I think of as being "analogue" - this is the part
where the opinion of the person buying (in the broadest sense) is
involved.

There are some transactions (continuing in the broadest sense) that are
mainly digital. Thinking of a related example - let's say I want to
buy a cheap router to connect me to "broadband". There are about
6-10 well-known brands to choose from. I know what I am looking for
and can research the capabilities I want and whether the product does
them, perhaps how well it does them. I don't need the item today, but
in the next day or so. I do want the best price and delivery. Most
likely, I will look on the internet for that and make an on-line
purchase. One decision making criterion may very well be whether the
supplier has provided a timely delivery in the past. There is not much
analogue content in this transaction and so little need for human
interaction. Even if I had decided to buy over the phone, it would
tend to be a price and availability discussion. On the other side,
the supplier is making a small amount of margin contribution on the
sale and there is nothing to fund anything more than this.

However, the largest purchases (still continuing in the broadest
sense), tend to have much more of an analogue content - for example
houses, cars, holidays, home improvements, education, to name but a
few..... Usually there is more at stake either financially or in
other ways. Although many aspects of these can be described and
presented in digital terms, the difference in terms of whether or not a
transaction takes place comes from the buying criteria of the customer.
These may be only from choices made among those that the supplier is
presenting, in which case each customer may have wildly different
scorings on each. However, much more frequently, the customer has
issues that may not directly relate to what is being offered, either
because the supplier hasn't considered them, or because they really are
outside the immediate scope of the offering. Then there are the issues
that are not initially mentioned by the customer or may never be, but
which nonetheless make an important difference in decision making.
Politics in all that that means, be it in a company, some other
organisation or even a family can make a huge difference to outcome.

As a minimum, the person doing the selling (and I am still in the
broadest sense) needs to find out what the purchasing criteria of the
person buying are. If these are entirely or almost entirely from a
"digital" laundry list, that can be done over the phone or by email.
However, even that has to be done carefully. The direct and obvious
way would be to interrogate the customer to find out what the issues
are and hence make sure that they are covered properly. Call centre
type selling does this in a slightly packaged way, but most of us don't
like it, because it's scripted and little or no opportunity to cover
issues that are not part of the script.

Now consider the situation where much more is involved, and/or there is
much more analogue content in the transaction. It's then much more
difficult to identify the issues that actually are important because
the person may not be saying. That can be because they don't want to
say, that the purchase involves more than just them, that they have
additional agendas and dozens of other reasons. It's virtually
impossible to find out about these things other than through a face to
face meeting. Once one gets past the "digital" parts, for which
there is no point in going unless they are satisfied, the rest is
"analogue". Quite often, the important parts of those are only found
out about in the context of some kind of relationship developing
between buyer and seller. For example, the buyer may want the
transaction to take place but is worried about the consequences of
something not working out. Again, there can be loads of issues and
loads of people involved. Some of these people will say that they are
important, but are not; others will say little or nothing but really
are the important ones.

In among all of that lot is the degree to which the buyer(s) like the
seller(s). This is the short way of describing all of the analogue
content of the transaction ranging from the simple one of does the
buyer trust the seller sufficiently to giver him information that he
may be embarrassed about or which used in the wrong way or in the wrong
hands could put him at risk - either actually or just in his own mind.
In terms of an outcome to buy a product, service, idea or anything
else, any of these can facilitate or block what happens.



I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a house,
car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all "digital" to me

I'm not entirely surprised. Read through it again. I didn't say that
liking the seller was a major criterion or even a minor purchasing one,
necessarily. Equally, I don't believe that you bought a car purely
on items listed on the specification sheet. If there was a short list
of three and all met the spec. sheet criteria that you had, would you
buy the one that you thought was ugly? Probably not. Those are
matter-of-opinion criteria and fall in the analogue bucket. You might
have bought a car because it comes in a particular shade of blue that
is not available for the others. Doesn't affect the primary purpose.
Other people might like the yellow that is unique to a different brand
but hate all the colours available for the one you chose.

Now let's say that you have narrowed the choice to one product, it is
available at the same price and delivery from two garages equidistant
from your house and both providing good service. Some people may
choose which based on the size of the receptionist's tits. Others
may prefer the salesman at one place more than the other. These are
factors that aren't on the spec sheet but people do decide based on
criteria that to others seems ridiculous.

Andy Hall coughed up some electrons that declared:


Now let's say that you have narrowed the choice to one product, it is
available at the same price and delivery from two garages equidistant
from your house and both providing good service. Some people may
choose which based on the size of the receptionist's tits. Others
may prefer the salesman at one place more than the other. These are
factors that aren't on the spec sheet but people do decide based on
criteria that to others seems ridiculous.

It's true. I had a choice of two VW dealerships to buy my last car from. One
gave us the minimum test drive and seemed not to like us having the kids
with us. The other couldn't be more helpful - lots of time to try the car
child seats for size, plenty of time on the test drive to really see if me
*and* SWMBO were happy with the vehicle. And he was pally with the kids.

Guess who got the sale ;- If I have a reasonable option to do so, I believe
in rewarding helpful staff (in this case by helping him make his sales
quota by one more item).

Cheers

Tim

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-12 21:03:27 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-12 08:29:56 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-11 23:08:27 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Stuart Noble wrote:
I can do many things in this way, but not the essential face to
face
meetings

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes
What is it with salesmen that the personal visit is still so vital?

Because all other things being equal, people buy from people they
like, If
things are not equal they still buy from people they like.

That's actually very true.



Only if you're a little old lady

Actually not.

I see people buying from people because they like them virtually
every day. This does not mean, as I think you are trying to suggest,
that this is because they are gullible. Something like 95% of the
population has bought a Lottery ticket - that's what I call gullible.

Keep in mind also that "selling" does not just mean the activity of
somebody who makes their living from arranging and progressing
commercial transactions related to goods and services.

In one way or another, we all sell. It can be ourselves - meaning
what we have to offer and our ideas. Our customers are the people
with whom we interact in one way or another. That can be in the
work, social and home environments.

All of these interactions, including the commercial and
non-commercial ones have a factual and a non-factual component. I
tend to think of the factual part as being "digital" - what is being
proposed can be documented, described and measured in quantifiable
terms with all parties involved being able to make the same
determinations. The non-factual part I think of as being "analogue"
- this is the part where the opinion of the person buying (in the
broadest sense) is involved.

There are some transactions (continuing in the broadest sense) that
are mainly digital. Thinking of a related example - let's say I want
to buy a cheap router to connect me to "broadband". There are
about 6-10 well-known brands to choose from. I know what I am
looking for and can research the capabilities I want and whether the
product does them, perhaps how well it does them. I don't need the
item today, but in the next day or so. I do want the best price and
delivery. Most likely, I will look on the internet for that and make
an on-line purchase. One decision making criterion may very well be
whether the supplier has provided a timely delivery in the past.
There is not much analogue content in this transaction and so little
need for human interaction. Even if I had decided to buy over the
phone, it would tend to be a price and availability discussion. On
the other side, the supplier is making a small amount of margin
contribution on the sale and there is nothing to fund anything more
than this.

However, the largest purchases (still continuing in the broadest
sense), tend to have much more of an analogue content - for example
houses, cars, holidays, home improvements, education, to name but a
few..... Usually there is more at stake either financially or in
other ways. Although many aspects of these can be described and
presented in digital terms, the difference in terms of whether or not
a transaction takes place comes from the buying criteria of the
customer. These may be only from choices made among those that the
supplier is presenting, in which case each customer may have wildly
different scorings on each. However, much more frequently, the
customer has issues that may not directly relate to what is being
offered, either because the supplier hasn't considered them, or
because they really are outside the immediate scope of the offering.
Then there are the issues that are not initially mentioned by the
customer or may never be, but which nonetheless make an important
difference in decision making. Politics in all that that means, be
it in a company, some other organisation or even a family can make a
huge difference to outcome.

As a minimum, the person doing the selling (and I am still in the
broadest sense) needs to find out what the purchasing criteria of the
person buying are. If these are entirely or almost entirely from a
"digital" laundry list, that can be done over the phone or by
email. However, even that has to be done carefully. The direct
and obvious way would be to interrogate the customer to find out what
the issues are and hence make sure that they are covered properly.
Call centre type selling does this in a slightly packaged way, but
most of us don't like it, because it's scripted and little or no
opportunity to cover issues that are not part of the script.

Now consider the situation where much more is involved, and/or there
is much more analogue content in the transaction. It's then much
more difficult to identify the issues that actually are important
because the person may not be saying. That can be because they don't
want to say, that the purchase involves more than just them, that
they have additional agendas and dozens of other reasons. It's
virtually impossible to find out about these things other than
through a face to face meeting. Once one gets past the "digital"
parts, for which there is no point in going unless they are
satisfied, the rest is "analogue". Quite often, the important parts
of those are only found out about in the context of some kind of
relationship developing between buyer and seller. For example,
the buyer may want the transaction to take place but is worried about
the consequences of something not working out. Again, there can be
loads of issues and loads of people involved. Some of these people
will say that they are important, but are not; others will say little
or nothing but really are the important ones.

In among all of that lot is the degree to which the buyer(s) like the
seller(s). This is the short way of describing all of the analogue
content of the transaction ranging from the simple one of does the
buyer trust the seller sufficiently to giver him information that he
may be embarrassed about or which used in the wrong way or in the
wrong hands could put him at risk - either actually or just in his
own mind. In terms of an outcome to buy a product, service, idea or
anything else, any of these can facilitate or block what happens.



I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a house,
car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all "digital" to me

I'm not entirely surprised. Read through it again.

Blimey, it was bad enough the first time. I guess you didn't have time
to write a shorter version.

On 2007-08-13 11:29:35 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-12 21:03:27 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-12 08:29:56 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-11 23:08:27 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Stuart Noble wrote:
I can do many things in this way, but not the essential face to face
meetings

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes
What is it with salesmen that the personal visit is still so vital?

Because all other things being equal, people buy from people they like, If
things are not equal they still buy from people they like.

That's actually very true.



Only if you're a little old lady

Actually not.

I see people buying from people because they like them virtually every
day. This does not mean, as I think you are trying to suggest, that
this is because they are gullible. Something like 95% of the
population has bought a Lottery ticket - that's what I call gullible.

Keep in mind also that "selling" does not just mean the activity of
somebody who makes their living from arranging and progressing
commercial transactions related to goods and services.

In one way or another, we all sell. It can be ourselves - meaning
what we have to offer and our ideas. Our customers are the people with
whom we interact in one way or another. That can be in the work,
social and home environments.

All of these interactions, including the commercial and non-commercial
ones have a factual and a non-factual component. I tend to think of
the factual part as being "digital" - what is being proposed can be
documented, described and measured in quantifiable terms with all
parties involved being able to make the same determinations. The
non-factual part I think of as being "analogue" - this is the part
where the opinion of the person buying (in the broadest sense) is
involved.

There are some transactions (continuing in the broadest sense) that are
mainly digital. Thinking of a related example - let's say I want to
buy a cheap router to connect me to "broadband". There are about
6-10 well-known brands to choose from. I know what I am looking for
and can research the capabilities I want and whether the product does
them, perhaps how well it does them. I don't need the item today, but
in the next day or so. I do want the best price and delivery. Most
likely, I will look on the internet for that and make an on-line
purchase. One decision making criterion may very well be whether the
supplier has provided a timely delivery in the past. There is not much
analogue content in this transaction and so little need for human
interaction. Even if I had decided to buy over the phone, it would
tend to be a price and availability discussion. On the other side,
the supplier is making a small amount of margin contribution on the
sale and there is nothing to fund anything more than this.

However, the largest purchases (still continuing in the broadest
sense), tend to have much more of an analogue content - for example
houses, cars, holidays, home improvements, education, to name but a
few..... Usually there is more at stake either financially or in
other ways. Although many aspects of these can be described and
presented in digital terms, the difference in terms of whether or not a
transaction takes place comes from the buying criteria of the customer.
These may be only from choices made among those that the supplier is
presenting, in which case each customer may have wildly different
scorings on each. However, much more frequently, the customer has
issues that may not directly relate to what is being offered, either
because the supplier hasn't considered them, or because they really are
outside the immediate scope of the offering. Then there are the issues
that are not initially mentioned by the customer or may never be, but
which nonetheless make an important difference in decision making.
Politics in all that that means, be it in a company, some other
organisation or even a family can make a huge difference to outcome.

As a minimum, the person doing the selling (and I am still in the
broadest sense) needs to find out what the purchasing criteria of the
person buying are. If these are entirely or almost entirely from a
"digital" laundry list, that can be done over the phone or by email.
However, even that has to be done carefully. The direct and obvious
way would be to interrogate the customer to find out what the issues
are and hence make sure that they are covered properly. Call centre
type selling does this in a slightly packaged way, but most of us don't
like it, because it's scripted and little or no opportunity to cover
issues that are not part of the script.

Now consider the situation where much more is involved, and/or there is
much more analogue content in the transaction. It's then much more
difficult to identify the issues that actually are important because
the person may not be saying. That can be because they don't want to
say, that the purchase involves more than just them, that they have
additional agendas and dozens of other reasons. It's virtually
impossible to find out about these things other than through a face to
face meeting. Once one gets past the "digital" parts, for which
there is no point in going unless they are satisfied, the rest is
"analogue". Quite often, the important parts of those are only found
out about in the context of some kind of relationship developing
between buyer and seller. For example, the buyer may want the
transaction to take place but is worried about the consequences of
something not working out. Again, there can be loads of issues and
loads of people involved. Some of these people will say that they are
important, but are not; others will say little or nothing but really
are the important ones.

In among all of that lot is the degree to which the buyer(s) like the
seller(s). This is the short way of describing all of the analogue
content of the transaction ranging from the simple one of does the
buyer trust the seller sufficiently to giver him information that he
may be embarrassed about or which used in the wrong way or in the wrong
hands could put him at risk - either actually or just in his own mind.
In terms of an outcome to buy a product, service, idea or anything
else, any of these can facilitate or block what happens.



I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a house,
car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all "digital" to me

I'm not entirely surprised. Read through it again.

Blimey, it was bad enough the first time. I guess you didn't have time
to write a shorter version.

I guess that you have never been in a commercial environment if you
have difficulty in understanding the concepts .

If you still don't understand, I wouldn't worry about it. I've
simply been explaining how business is done.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-13 11:29:35 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-12 21:03:27 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-12 08:29:56 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-11 23:08:27 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Stuart Noble wrote:
I can do many things in this way, but not the essential face
to face
meetings

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes
What is it with salesmen that the personal visit is still so
vital?

Because all other things being equal, people buy from people
they like, If
things are not equal they still buy from people they like.

That's actually very true.



Only if you're a little old lady

Actually not.

I see people buying from people because they like them virtually
every day. This does not mean, as I think you are trying to
suggest, that this is because they are gullible. Something like
95% of the population has bought a Lottery ticket - that's what I
call gullible.

Keep in mind also that "selling" does not just mean the activity of
somebody who makes their living from arranging and progressing
commercial transactions related to goods and services.

In one way or another, we all sell. It can be ourselves -
meaning what we have to offer and our ideas. Our customers are the
people with whom we interact in one way or another. That can be in
the work, social and home environments.

All of these interactions, including the commercial and
non-commercial ones have a factual and a non-factual component.
I tend to think of the factual part as being "digital" - what is
being proposed can be documented, described and measured in
quantifiable terms with all parties involved being able to make the
same determinations. The non-factual part I think of as being
"analogue" - this is the part where the opinion of the person
buying (in the broadest sense) is involved.

There are some transactions (continuing in the broadest sense) that
are mainly digital. Thinking of a related example - let's say I
want to buy a cheap router to connect me to "broadband". There
are about 6-10 well-known brands to choose from. I know what I am
looking for and can research the capabilities I want and whether
the product does them, perhaps how well it does them. I don't need
the item today, but in the next day or so. I do want the best
price and delivery. Most likely, I will look on the internet for
that and make an on-line purchase. One decision making criterion
may very well be whether the supplier has provided a timely
delivery in the past. There is not much analogue content in this
transaction and so little need for human interaction. Even if I
had decided to buy over the phone, it would tend to be a price and
availability discussion. On the other side, the supplier is
making a small amount of margin contribution on the sale and there
is nothing to fund anything more than this.

However, the largest purchases (still continuing in the broadest
sense), tend to have much more of an analogue content - for example
houses, cars, holidays, home improvements, education, to name but a
few..... Usually there is more at stake either financially or
in other ways. Although many aspects of these can be described
and presented in digital terms, the difference in terms of whether
or not a transaction takes place comes from the buying criteria of
the customer. These may be only from choices made among those that
the supplier is presenting, in which case each customer may have
wildly different scorings on each. However, much more frequently,
the customer has issues that may not directly relate to what is
being offered, either because the supplier hasn't considered them,
or because they really are outside the immediate scope of the
offering. Then there are the issues that are not initially
mentioned by the customer or may never be, but which nonetheless
make an important difference in decision making. Politics in all
that that means, be it in a company, some other organisation or
even a family can make a huge difference to outcome.

As a minimum, the person doing the selling (and I am still in the
broadest sense) needs to find out what the purchasing criteria of
the person buying are. If these are entirely or almost entirely
from a "digital" laundry list, that can be done over the phone or
by email. However, even that has to be done carefully. The
direct and obvious way would be to interrogate the customer to find
out what the issues are and hence make sure that they are covered
properly. Call centre type selling does this in a slightly
packaged way, but most of us don't like it, because it's scripted
and little or no opportunity to cover issues that are not part of
the script.

Now consider the situation where much more is involved, and/or
there is much more analogue content in the transaction. It's then
much more difficult to identify the issues that actually are
important because the person may not be saying. That can be
because they don't want to say, that the purchase involves more
than just them, that they have additional agendas and dozens of
other reasons. It's virtually impossible to find out about these
things other than through a face to face meeting. Once one gets
past the "digital" parts, for which there is no point in going
unless they are satisfied, the rest is "analogue". Quite often,
the important parts of those are only found out about in the
context of some kind of relationship developing between buyer and
seller. For example, the buyer may want the transaction to take
place but is worried about the consequences of something not
working out. Again, there can be loads of issues and loads of
people involved. Some of these people will say that they are
important, but are not; others will say little or nothing but
really are the important ones.

In among all of that lot is the degree to which the buyer(s) like
the seller(s). This is the short way of describing all of the
analogue content of the transaction ranging from the simple one of
does the buyer trust the seller sufficiently to giver him
information that he may be embarrassed about or which used in the
wrong way or in the wrong hands could put him at risk - either
actually or just in his own mind. In terms of an outcome to buy a
product, service, idea or anything else, any of these can
facilitate or block what happens.



I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a house,
car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all "digital" to me

I'm not entirely surprised. Read through it again.

Blimey, it was bad enough the first time. I guess you didn't have time
to write a shorter version.

I guess that you have never been in a commercial environment if you have
difficulty in understanding the concepts .

If you still don't understand, I wouldn't worry about it. I've simply
been explaining how business is done.

Waffle

The message
from Lurch contains these words:

Slightly OT, but do people really drive off cliffs
because they are following their SatNav,
or is that just an urban myth?

Nope, people do do things like that. These people are the people who
shouldn't really be allowed to drive anyway, with or without sat nav.
They don't replace your existing driving skills, you still need to
actually look at road signs.

I have never heard of anyone driving off a cliff under instruction from
a sat-nav but there is at least one recorded instance of a German
driving down a ferry ramp under (apparently) the mistaken impression it
was a ford and routing onto unpaved byways is relatively common.

I have a Garmin Nuvi 310 which I am rather disappointed with. I
initially bought it because it was the only in-car sat-nav I could find
that would take grid references.

I have long since lost count of the number of junctions that have been
wrongly coded so that I am advised to bear left or whatever when that is
the route of the major road I am already on. I have also come across a
substantial number of junctions where there is no advice and on occasion
no alternative routes shown on the display but my biggest disappointment
has been with its unjustified preference for single track roads that are
unsafe at 20 mph, let alone the 55 or 60 mph the gps thinks is
appropriate.

--
Roger Chapman

"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message
from Lurch contains these words:

Slightly OT, but do people really drive off cliffs
because they are following their SatNav,
or is that just an urban myth?

Nope, people do do things like that. These people are the people who
shouldn't really be allowed to drive anyway, with or without sat nav.
They don't replace your existing driving skills, you still need to
actually look at road signs.

I have never heard of anyone driving off a cliff under instruction from
a sat-nav but there is at least one recorded instance of a German
driving down a ferry ramp under (apparently) the mistaken impression it
was a ford and routing onto unpaved byways is relatively common.

I have a Garmin Nuvi 310 which I am rather disappointed with. I
initially bought it because it was the only in-car sat-nav I could find
that would take grid references.

I have long since lost count of the number of junctions that have been
wrongly coded so that I am advised to bear left or whatever when that is
the route of the major road I am already on. I have also come across a
substantial number of junctions where there is no advice and on occasion
no alternative routes shown on the display but my biggest disappointment
has been with its unjustified preference for single track roads that are
unsafe at 20 mph, let alone the 55 or 60 mph the gps thinks is
appropriate.

--
Roger Chapman

In pure anecdote mode ..... On first acquiring a SatNav system I used it to
drive along routes that I was familiar with ... to gauge how good it was
(compared to moi .... ).
Anyway the device's routing suggestion is also sensitive to the preferences
for Motorway/ Trunk Roads/ ... unpaved roads.

Not too far away from me is a new-ish junction that is a major tee-junction
with Traffic Light controls.
The 'old' road is the 'across' part of the Tee ; while the off-part leads to
a by-pass. I wanted to continue on the old road - and traffic was stationary
due to Red Lights. As I joined the tail of the stopped queue the Sat Nav
said 'Turn Left' ...( I thought perhaps it'll take me along the by-pass, and
I wasn't in a hurry ) so followed the instructions ... 'In one hundred
yards, at the roundabout ; take the THIRD exit' ... one,two, three ... 'I'm
going back! ... "In one hundred yards; turn LEFT!' ..... I'd jumped
twenty-odd cars at the traffic lights! ....

In my rear view mirror I could see drivers mouthing 'who is that flash
git!"

I wound back my preference settings for Motorways!

--

Brian

On 2007-08-13 13:09:34 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a house,
car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all "digital" to me

I'm not entirely surprised. Read through it again.

Blimey, it was bad enough the first time. I guess you didn't have time
to write a shorter version.

I guess that you have never been in a commercial environment if you
have difficulty in understanding the concepts .

If you still don't understand, I wouldn't worry about it. I've
simply been explaining how business is done.

Waffle

All the information is there. If you don't understand it, then I am
not going to write different versions of the same information.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-13 13:09:34 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a
house, car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all
"digital" to me

I'm not entirely surprised. Read through it again.

Blimey, it was bad enough the first time. I guess you didn't have
time to write a shorter version.

I guess that you have never been in a commercial environment if you
have difficulty in understanding the concepts .

If you still don't understand, I wouldn't worry about it. I've
simply been explaining how business is done.

Waffle

All the information is there.

If you don't understand it, then I am not
going to write different versions of the same information.


I wouldn't promote it to "information".

On 2007-08-13 17:20:06 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-13 13:09:34 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a house,
car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all "digital" to me

I'm not entirely surprised. Read through it again.

Blimey, it was bad enough the first time. I guess you didn't have time
to write a shorter version.

I guess that you have never been in a commercial environment if you
have difficulty in understanding the concepts .

If you still don't understand, I wouldn't worry about it. I've
simply been explaining how business is done.

Waffle

All the information is there.

If you don't understand it, then I am not going to write different
versions of the same information.


I wouldn't promote it to "information".

There's no need - I already did.

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:26:26 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
mused:

In pure anecdote mode ..... On first acquiring a SatNav system I used it to
drive along routes that I was familiar with ... to gauge how good it was
(compared to moi .... ).
Anyway the device's routing suggestion is also sensitive to the preferences
for Motorway/ Trunk Roads/ ... unpaved roads.

Not too far away from me is a new-ish junction that is a major tee-junction
with Traffic Light controls.
The 'old' road is the 'across' part of the Tee ; while the off-part leads to
a by-pass. I wanted to continue on the old road - and traffic was stationary
due to Red Lights. As I joined the tail of the stopped queue the Sat Nav
said 'Turn Left' ...( I thought perhaps it'll take me along the by-pass, and
I wasn't in a hurry ) so followed the instructions ... 'In one hundred
yards, at the roundabout ; take the THIRD exit' ... one,two, three ... 'I'm
going back! ... "In one hundred yards; turn LEFT!' ..... I'd jumped
twenty-odd cars at the traffic lights! ....

In my rear view mirror I could see drivers mouthing 'who is that flash
git!"

I wound back my preference settings for Motorways!

Eh?

The sat nav got you 20 cars ahead in a queue and you decided that
wasn't very good and turned it off?
--
Regards,
Stuart.

The message
from "Brian Sharrock" contains these words:

In pure anecdote mode ..... On first acquiring a SatNav system I used it to
drive along routes that I was familiar with ... to gauge how good it was
(compared to moi .... ).
Anyway the device's routing suggestion is also sensitive to the
preferences
for Motorway/ Trunk Roads/ ... unpaved roads.

My Nuvi 310 has only 3 preferences, faster time, shorter distance and
off road. I haven't dared use it on shorter distance. I have a hand held
Garmin Vista C for off road which has a rudimentary road map and a
diabolically useless road direction system. Heading North up the M6
towards Scotland I was directed off into the Lake District and once I
got to Scotland all I got was a direction back to the A74 once I left
it.

--
Roger Chapman

Roger wrote:
My Nuvi 310 has only 3 preferences, faster time, shorter distance and
off road. I haven't dared use it on shorter distance. I have a hand held
Garmin Vista C for off road which has a rudimentary road map and a
diabolically useless road direction system. Heading North up the M6
towards Scotland I was directed off into the Lake District and once I
got to Scotland all I got was a direction back to the A74 once I left
it.

I have a Garmin map60, probably the same base map. In France it
suggested a 7km drive to the nearest autoroute and then a long loop of
100km rather than go 12km straight down a perfectly good D road not in
its database. Following its 'route' to Littlehampton the other weekend I
seemed to be following a version of the A24 unknown to the highways
agency. I have learnt to turn off the auto recalculate route option, the
manic alarms as it attempts to send me through the centre of Milan
rather than the tangetale was just too distracting.


--
djc

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:26:26 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
mused:

In pure anecdote mode ..... On first acquiring a SatNav system I used it
to
drive along routes that I was familiar with ... to gauge how good it was
(compared to moi .... ).
Anyway the device's routing suggestion is also sensitive to the
preferences
for Motorway/ Trunk Roads/ ... unpaved roads.

Not too far away from me is a new-ish junction that is a major
tee-junction
with Traffic Light controls.
The 'old' road is the 'across' part of the Tee ; while the off-part leads
to
a by-pass. I wanted to continue on the old road - and traffic was
stationary
due to Red Lights. As I joined the tail of the stopped queue the Sat Nav
said 'Turn Left' ...( I thought perhaps it'll take me along the by-pass,
and
I wasn't in a hurry ) so followed the instructions ... 'In one hundred
yards, at the roundabout ; take the THIRD exit' ... one,two, three ...
'I'm
going back! ... "In one hundred yards; turn LEFT!' ..... I'd jumped
twenty-odd cars at the traffic lights! ....

In my rear view mirror I could see drivers mouthing 'who is that flash
git!"

I wound back my preference settings for Motorways!

Eh?

The sat nav got you 20 cars ahead in a queue and you decided that
wasn't very good and turned it off?
--
Regards,
Stuart.

As an exercise; please indicate just where precisely I used the words '
turned it off'?
If you need to re-sharpen your crayon, hold your hand up and an invigilator
will assist.

Reading comprehension not your strong point?

Are you the poster child for noo-labor manifestos?

--

Brian

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-13 17:20:06 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-13 13:09:34 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a
house, car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all
"digital" to me

I'm not entirely surprised. Read through it again.

Blimey, it was bad enough the first time. I guess you didn't have
time to write a shorter version.

I guess that you have never been in a commercial environment if you
have difficulty in understanding the concepts .

If you still don't understand, I wouldn't worry about it. I've
simply been explaining how business is done.

Waffle

All the information is there.

If you don't understand it, then I am not going to write different
versions of the same information.


I wouldn't promote it to "information".

There's no need - I already did.


It's still waffle, whatever you call it

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 05:03:10 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
mused:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:26:26 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
mused:

In pure anecdote mode ..... On first acquiring a SatNav system I used it
to
drive along routes that I was familiar with ... to gauge how good it was
(compared to moi .... ).
Anyway the device's routing suggestion is also sensitive to the
preferences
for Motorway/ Trunk Roads/ ... unpaved roads.

Not too far away from me is a new-ish junction that is a major
tee-junction
with Traffic Light controls.
The 'old' road is the 'across' part of the Tee ; while the off-part leads
to
a by-pass. I wanted to continue on the old road - and traffic was
stationary
due to Red Lights. As I joined the tail of the stopped queue the Sat Nav
said 'Turn Left' ...( I thought perhaps it'll take me along the by-pass,
and
I wasn't in a hurry ) so followed the instructions ... 'In one hundred
yards, at the roundabout ; take the THIRD exit' ... one,two, three ...
'I'm
going back! ... "In one hundred yards; turn LEFT!' ..... I'd jumped
twenty-odd cars at the traffic lights! ....

In my rear view mirror I could see drivers mouthing 'who is that flash
git!"

I wound back my preference settings for Motorways!

Eh?

The sat nav got you 20 cars ahead in a queue and you decided that
wasn't very good and turned it off?
--
Regards,
Stuart.

As an exercise; please indicate just where precisely I used the words '
turned it off'?

Doesn't matter.

If you need to re-sharpen your crayon, hold your hand up and an invigilator
will assist.

Reading comprehension not your strong point?

Are you the poster child for noo-labor manifestos?

Settle down old fella, writing comprehensibly not your strong point?
--
Regards,
Stuart.

On 2007-08-14 07:55:58 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-13 17:20:06 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-13 13:09:34 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a house,
car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all "digital" to me

I'm not entirely surprised. Read through it again.

Blimey, it was bad enough the first time. I guess you didn't have time
to write a shorter version.

I guess that you have never been in a commercial environment if you
have difficulty in understanding the concepts .

If you still don't understand, I wouldn't worry about it. I've
simply been explaining how business is done.

Waffle

All the information is there.

If you don't understand it, then I am not going to write different
versions of the same information.


I wouldn't promote it to "information".

There's no need - I already did.


It's still waffle, whatever you call it

I guess that you said the same when you attempted to read Shakespeare.....

Your lack of understanding of something doesn't invalidate it.

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ed wrote:
Which is the best value for money Sat Nav just for U.K use and possibly
for use in different cars ?? Thanks E

I doubt the different cars bit makes much difference as all the car
supplies is the power.

I also doubt many individuals have experience of all types so for that
you
need a magazine review - try Which etc.

I can say I'm very happy with my Tom tom 510 - I chose it for the
slightly
larger screen and better looks than some of the budget models.

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I agree with Dave; not many people will have experience of all devices on
the market and even magazine reviews will have personal preferences and/or
prejudices.

I've recently bought a Navman F20 (actually a F40 which is a F20 plus the
Traffic Module) and am very happy with it. The F40 replaces a two-year old
Navman which was my first experience of driving with a SatNav.
in general, having a SatNav device is like heaven.

The correct Sat Nav might be, but the wrong one not.

I was with my friend and his new toy this weekend and
taking his off the A roads was most enlightening.

We drove onto a B road to stop off at a small village on the
way (we hadn't bothered to program this point). Yet despite
the road ultimately going to the same town as the A road
the Nav insisted on routing us back to the A road by
whatever convoluted route it could find, even though the
route back was almost as long as staying on the B road
to the final destination.

I suspect that the average speed programmed into the
machine for B roads was about 10 mph (we were averaging
55) and 60 for the A road. This might be programmable,
but we couldn't find it.

I don't think my friend will be using his Nav much for local
journeys.

tim

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
news

So far mine's worked well and has -to my knowledge- directed me off the
M25 , through some delightful parts of Surrey, and back onto the M25.

Anything that got you off the M25 last Friday would be worth its weight in
gold

AIUI the problem last Friday was actually getting off the M25,
not finding the alternative route once you were off.

tim

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-14 07:55:58 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-13 17:20:06 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-13 13:09:34 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

I don't think I'm quite following this. I have never bought a
house, car, or a holiday because I liked the seller. It's all
"digital" to me

I'm not entirely surprised. Read through it again.

Blimey, it was bad enough the first time. I guess you didn't
have time to write a shorter version.

I guess that you have never been in a commercial environment if
you have difficulty in understanding the concepts .

If you still don't understand, I wouldn't worry about it. I've
simply been explaining how business is done.

Waffle

All the information is there.

If you don't understand it, then I am not going to write different
versions of the same information.


I wouldn't promote it to "information".

There's no need - I already did.


It's still waffle, whatever you call it

I guess that you said the same when you attempted to read Shakespeare.....

Nobody reads Shakespeare voluntarily, but I do know someone who's read
Proust.

Your lack of understanding of something doesn't invalidate it.

I kind of guessed that quite early on, but making something
incomprehensible doesn't confer validity either.

tim..... wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
news
So far mine's worked well and has -to my knowledge- directed me off the
M25 , through some delightful parts of Surrey, and back onto the M25.
Anything that got you off the M25 last Friday would be worth its weight in
gold

AIUI the problem last Friday was actually getting off the M25,
not finding the alternative route once you were off.

tim


To think that one lorry load of plasterboard could knock out Heathrow
and Gatwick for a whole day in the middle of the holiday season. How
fragile our arrangements are!

On 2007-08-14 13:45:36 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

I guess that you said the same when you attempted to read Shakespeare.....

Nobody reads Shakespeare voluntarily, but I do know someone who's read Proust.

I quite enjoy Shakespeare, but there you are.



Your lack of understanding of something doesn't invalidate it.

I kind of guessed that quite early on, but making something
incomprehensible doesn't confer validity either.

It was quite logically explained. What didn't you comprehend?

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-08-14 13:45:36 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

I guess that you said the same when you attempted to read
Shakespeare.....

Nobody reads Shakespeare voluntarily, but I do know someone who's read
Proust.

I quite enjoy Shakespeare, but there you are.

Dead bodies everywhere. Not unlike Reservoir Dogs. Some of the sonnets
are bearable.



Your lack of understanding of something doesn't invalidate it.

I kind of guessed that quite early on, but making something
incomprehensible doesn't confer validity either.

It was quite logically explained. What didn't you comprehend?


This is where we came in

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:19:39 +0100, "tim....."
mused:


The correct Sat Nav might be, but the wrong one not.

I was with my friend and his new toy this weekend and
taking his off the A roads was most enlightening.

We drove onto a B road to stop off at a small village on the
way (we hadn't bothered to program this point). Yet despite
the road ultimately going to the same town as the A road
the Nav insisted on routing us back to the A road by
whatever convoluted route it could find, even though the
route back was almost as long as staying on the B road
to the final destination.

Mine does that. The trick is to know where you`re going before you
start! If you know it`s going the wrong way just re-enter the
destination and it recalculates a more direct route rather than trying
t drag you back onto the main route.

I suspect that the average speed programmed into the
machine for B roads was about 10 mph (we were averaging
55) and 60 for the A road. This might be programmable,
but we couldn't find it.

I don't think my friend will be using his Nav much for local
journeys.

You have to know how it works to get the most from it, sat nav isn`t
just a plug and play device IMO.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

In message , Stuart Noble
writes
tim..... wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
news
So far mine's worked well and has -to my knowledge- directed me off
the M25 , through some delightful parts of Surrey, and back onto
the M25.
Anything that got you off the M25 last Friday would be worth its
weight in gold
AIUI the problem last Friday was actually getting off the M25,
not finding the alternative route once you were off.
tim

To think that one lorry load of plasterboard could knock out Heathrow
and Gatwick for a whole day in the middle of the holiday season. How
fragile our arrangements are!

Gypsum terrorists !

And what are the police doing ?

Arresting a couple of peaceful protesters under the terrorism act

--
geoff

In article ,
djc wrote:
My Nuvi 310 has only 3 preferences, faster time, shorter distance and
off road. I haven't dared use it on shorter distance. I have a hand
held Garmin Vista C for off road which has a rudimentary road map and
a diabolically useless road direction system. Heading North up the M6
towards Scotland I was directed off into the Lake District and once I
got to Scotland all I got was a direction back to the A74 once I left
it.

I have a Garmin map60, probably the same base map. In France it
suggested a 7km drive to the nearest autoroute and then a long loop of
100km rather than go 12km straight down a perfectly good D road not in
its database. Following its 'route' to Littlehampton the other weekend I
seemed to be following a version of the A24 unknown to the highways
agency. I have learnt to turn off the auto recalculate route option, the
manic alarms as it attempts to send me through the centre of Milan
rather than the tangetale was just too distracting.

Lots of 'cheaper' ones only have main roads in Europe - if at all. But
with my Tom Tom you can buy additional cards for this.

--
*Preserve wildlife - Go pickle a squirrel*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

in 659139 20070814 135603 Stuart Noble wrote:
tim..... wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
news
So far mine's worked well and has -to my knowledge- directed me off the
M25 , through some delightful parts of Surrey, and back onto the M25.
Anything that got you off the M25 last Friday would be worth its weight in
gold

AIUI the problem last Friday was actually getting off the M25,
not finding the alternative route once you were off.

tim


To think that one lorry load of plasterboard could knock out Heathrow
and Gatwick for a whole day in the middle of the holiday season. How
fragile our arrangements are!

Don't blame the truck, blame the jobsworths who were supposed to handle it.

The police never seem to miss a chance to close the busiest roads for as long
as possible given the slightest excuse. Someone should tell them what it costs.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
djc wrote:
I have a Garmin map60, probably the same base map. In France it
suggested a 7km drive to the nearest autoroute and then a long loop of
100km rather than go 12km straight down a perfectly good D road not in
its database. Following its 'route' to Littlehampton the other weekend I
seemed to be following a version of the A24 unknown to the highways
agency. I have learnt to turn off the auto recalculate route option, the
manic alarms as it attempts to send me through the centre of Milan
rather than the tangetale was just too distracting.

Lots of 'cheaper' ones only have main roads in Europe - if at all. But
with my Tom Tom you can buy additional cards for this.

I could get extra maps for the Garmin, but I use it for walking really,
having it on while in the car is but amusement: the tracklogs are
interesting and can be transferred to Google Earth etc. The Garmin
'maps' look horrible, so I stick to paper for real route planning, and
the GPS for position.


--
djc

raden wrote:
In message , Stuart Noble
writes
tim..... wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
news So far mine's worked well and has -to my knowledge- directed me
off the M25 , through some delightful parts of Surrey, and back
onto the M25.
Anything that got you off the M25 last Friday would be worth its
weight in gold
AIUI the problem last Friday was actually getting off the M25,
not finding the alternative route once you were off.
tim

To think that one lorry load of plasterboard could knock out Heathrow
and Gatwick for a whole day in the middle of the holiday season. How
fragile our arrangements are!

Gypsum terrorists !

And what are the police doing ?

Arresting a couple of peaceful protesters under the terrorism act

Its often occurred to me that if terrorists really wanted to cause mass
disruption to our society, taking out 3 or 4 bridges on the M25 would shut
down the south east for months or years.......


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

Stuart Noble wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:


I guess that you said the same when you attempted to read
Shakespeare.....

Nobody reads Shakespeare voluntarily, but I do know someone who's read
Proust.

Excuse me! I do read Shakespeare voluntarily!


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257