Hi

I've just discovered a cellar. It's about 2.5m x 3.0m with a vaulted
ceiling and a stone staircase leading up into the house. The ceiling
height at present is over 2.0m, but I suspect if I dig down I will
find a flagstone floor. It's still limewashed, and there are a few
iron hooks on the ceiling.

I'd like to restore it, but I'm concerned that I'm breaking so many
regulations renovating my house that reinstating a cellar might just
get me into an altogether new realm of trouble if I get caught.

Any ideas what to do with it? I quite fancy a small area where the
wife can practice the violin without me having to go outside!

T

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi

I've just discovered a cellar. It's about 2.5m x 3.0m with a vaulted
ceiling and a stone staircase leading up into the house. The ceiling
height at present is over 2.0m, but I suspect if I dig down I will
find a flagstone floor. It's still limewashed, and there are a few
iron hooks on the ceiling.

I'd like to restore it, but I'm concerned that I'm breaking so many
regulations renovating my house

Don't break regulations.

that reinstating a cellar might just
get me into an altogether new realm of trouble if I get caught.

The cellar is there, you are not digging out a new one. Use it to put the
cylinder and boiler in there.

Is your building listed?

Generally, restoration and repair isn't a planning or building control
matter. Reinstatement may be - however bringing a cellar back into use
as a cellar is probably ok - unless you were planning some very
different use for it.

wrote:
Hi

I've just discovered a cellar.

I'm intrigued! How did you not notice it before?


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On 5 Aug, 10:58, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
wrote:
Hi

I've just discovered a cellar.

I'm intrigued! How did you not notice it before?

--
Dave
The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

I was cleaning up out front and noticed a flagstone beneath the
crumbling remains of a tarmac covering next to the house. I lifted it
and found a hole, so I sent the wife down to take a look.

T

wrote in message
oups.com...
On 5 Aug, 10:58, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
wrote:
Hi

I've just discovered a cellar.

I'm intrigued! How did you not notice it before?

--
Dave
The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

I was cleaning up out front and noticed a flagstone beneath the
crumbling remains of a tarmac covering next to the house. I lifted
it
and found a hole, so I sent the wife down to take a look.

T



..... and that M'Lud is the case for the defence G

AWEM

On 5 Aug, 10:49, " wrote:
Is your building listed?

Generally, restoration and repair isn't a planning or building control
matter. Reinstatement may be - however bringing a cellar back into use
as a cellar is probably ok - unless you were planning some very
different use for it.

Before I started on my renovation I rang BC for some advice. I am
replacing about half of my downstairs floor, which should be quarry
tiles on earth, but is a patchwork of quarry tiles, concrete and
nothing. I now know that one neat concrete rectangle is in fact the
blocked up entrance to the cellar. I mentioned that my walls are 2ft
thick random stone and mud, that there are no foundations (so I
thought), no dpm or dpc and no damp. My plan to replace the floor with
flagstones was unacceptable. I had to underpin the house, damp proof
inject the walls, excavate the floor, put in a dpm, radon sump. I kid
you not!

Since then I have had nothing to do with my local BC department, save
submitting a building notice which neglects to mention about 3/4 of
what I'm actually doing.

T

"Andrew Mawson" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
On 5 Aug, 10:58, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
wrote:
Hi

I've just discovered a cellar.

I'm intrigued! How did you not notice it before?

--
Dave
The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

I was cleaning up out front and noticed a flagstone beneath the
crumbling remains of a tarmac covering next to the house. I lifted
it
and found a hole, so I sent the wife down to take a look.

T



.... and that M'Lud is the case for the defence G

AWEM


Well some idiot a few posts back did say to stick the boiler down there.

"Heliotrope Smith" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Mawson" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
On 5 Aug, 10:58, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
wrote:
Hi

I've just discovered a cellar.

I'm intrigued! How did you not notice it before?

--
Dave
The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

I was cleaning up out front and noticed a flagstone beneath the
crumbling remains of a tarmac covering next to the house. I lifted
it
and found a hole, so I sent the wife down to take a look.

T



.... and that M'Lud is the case for the defence G

AWEM

Well some idiot a few posts back did say to stick the boiler down there.

And as bigger idiot like you would put the boiler in the living room....and
listen to it.

wrote in message
oups.com...
On 5 Aug, 10:58, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
wrote:
Hi

I've just discovered a cellar.

I'm intrigued! How did you not notice it before?

--
Dave
The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

I was cleaning up out front and noticed a flagstone beneath the
crumbling remains of a tarmac covering next to the house. I lifted it
and found a hole, so I sent the wife down to take a look.

T

Brilliant. Any chance of some photos (of the cellar not the wife)

Adam

Before I started on my renovation I rang BC for some advice. I am
replacing about half of my downstairs floor, which should be quarry
tiles on earth, but is a patchwork of quarry tiles, concrete and
nothing. I now know that one neat concrete rectangle is in fact the
blocked up entrance to the cellar. I mentioned that my walls are 2ft
thick random stone and mud, that there are no foundations (so I
thought), no dpm or dpc and no damp. My plan to replace the floor with
flagstones was unacceptable. I had to underpin the house, damp proof
inject the walls, excavate the floor, put in a dpm, radon sump. I kid
you not!

Hmmm - sounds a very unenlightened approach from BC in relation to an
older building (how old?)

I don't blame you for going your own way in those circumstances.

Listed building status might do you some good (in that inappropriate
building regs don't have to be followed) - have you considered getting
a spot listing?

On 5 Aug, 11:39, wrote:
On 5 Aug, 10:49, " wrote:

My plan to replace the floor with
flagstones was unacceptable.

yep

I had to underpin the house, damp proof
inject the walls,

Neither of these are required, BCO was wrong to insist on those.
Whether you choose to challenge that is upto you.

excavate the floor, put in a dpm, radon sump.

fair enough. And insulation.


AFAIK reusing an existing cellar doesnt require any permissions.

I'd stay away from the listing idea, not that you'd get it anyway.


NT

I had to underpin the house, damp proof inject the walls,

Neither of these are required, BCO was wrong to insist on those.

Depends if there are any alterations that influence part of the
original structure.

excavate the floor, put in a dpm, radon sump.

fair enough. And insulation.

Not if the work undertaken was a repair.

I'd stay away from the listing idea, not that you'd get it anyway.

Spot listings are quite possible.

wrote:
Before I started on my renovation I rang BC for some advice. I am
replacing about half of my downstairs floor, which should be quarry
tiles on earth, but is a patchwork of quarry tiles, concrete and
nothing. I now know that one neat concrete rectangle is in fact the
blocked up entrance to the cellar. I mentioned that my walls are 2ft
thick random stone and mud, that there are no foundations (so I
thought), no dpm or dpc and no damp. My plan to replace the floor with
flagstones was unacceptable. I had to underpin the house, damp proof
inject the walls, excavate the floor, put in a dpm, radon sump. I kid
you not!

Hmmm - sounds a very unenlightened approach from BC in relation to an
older building (how old?)


The BCO in ths case is doing his job to the correct degree. You cannot
fault the BCO, but you might take issue with the regulations.

I don't blame you for going your own way in those circumstances.


Well no ;-)

Listed building status might do you some good (in that inappropriate
building regs don't have to be followed)

I have never heard that..in fact in one case I have heard a BCO and a
listings officer each arguing with the other about a staircase.

The BCO insisting that it must be changed, as it was dangerous, and the
listing officer stying that it could not, as it was part of the existing
listed structure.

In the end it was 'repaired' and reinstalled thus avoiding the bulding
regulations.

- have you considered getting
a spot listing?

Never go for a listing if you can avoid it. It devalues the house around
30% because it doubles repair costs every time.

Both the listings system and the building regulations are complete
examples of the law of unintended consequences. Listing a building often
sounds its death knell, as it is often far more cost effective to let it
fall down than it is to restore it to the absurdly high standards
required. And even if it is restored, the listing essentially turns a
house from a a living developing thing into a museum piece, where
nothing can be changed easily, and many things cannot be changed at all.

I applaud the spirit of the listing system,. but the practical reality
is that it does very little of a positive nature to achieve its aims.

The building regulations I also applaud, they are there to prevent
substandard housing being foisted on new buyers and to prevent severely
compromised building work being carried out: However they go too far.
Instead of 'what you do should be, if a mod or repair, no worse than
existing, and if new or an extension, to current standards' it tends to
be 'what you do shall always entail rendering anything you touch to full
modern standards..

and as in this case, that can be frighteningly expensive.

On 5 Aug, 11:36, wrote:

I've just discovered a cellar.

One the TV renovation programmes found one once. The explanation
given was that it was common practise to fill redundant cellars with
demolition rubble from the next job (wells and air raid shelters
likewise). Perhaps we should all look for them; not just those with
old houses -- Grime Busters reported on a Council house with a
substantial void underneath, filling with sewage (perhaps a reason for
_not_ looking .

Chris

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Listed building status might do you some good (in that inappropriate
building regs don't have to be followed)

I have never heard that..in fact in one case I have heard a BCO and a
listings officer each arguing with the other about a staircase.

Me too, in my own home. BCO wanted firecheck doors, LBO wanted to
preserve the building. Argment never resolved and I just gave up any
intent to do the work, or even to do repairs.

On 5 Aug, 10:36, wrote:
Hi

I've just discovered a cellar. It's about 2.5m x 3.0m with a vaulted
ceiling and a stone staircase leading up into the house. The ceiling
height at present is over 2.0m, but I suspect if I dig down I will
find a flagstone floor. It's still limewashed, and there are a few
iron hooks on the ceiling.

I'd like to restore it, but I'm concerned that I'm breaking so many
regulations renovating my house that reinstating a cellar might just
get me into an altogether new realm of trouble if I get caught.

Any ideas what to do with it? I quite fancy a small area where the
wife can practice the violin without me having to go outside!

T

Dear Tom
FWIIW I suggest you do the following:
Accpet the manna (sp?) gratefully and put the cellar to the sort of
use that was intended for it when it was first built. this is likely
to be storage (wine or coal depending on its age) but if you want to
upgrade to modern standards be very, very careful how you do it.
I take it that the building is not listed from your reponses to
comments - that is good. I share with Nat Phil the veiw that the last
thing you do is to list it if you can avoid it. Listing is a good
thing in general but is dependent on the whim of the local
conservation officers who vary in competence and understanding from
the plainly obsenely, incompentent purists with no practical
understaning to the very good but in my experience there are more in
practice who tend to the former than the latter description and it is
quite common to find them disagreeing with each other let alone the
BCO!
Do not be tempted to try to make the cellar water proof by tanking -
it will merely cause water to go different routes and maybe in walls
that you do not want it to go! Do, however, introduce subfoor
ventilation (if necesary by excavating a subfoor tube( to get through-
ventilation. Do put in an ISOLATED timber (tanalised) floor if you
want to store things ( or simply some sheet poly?) but bear in mind it
will not be vented and thus is at risk if you have cut any ends of
treated timber. It would be good to reinstate access from inside but
if you do so make sure any staircase is also isolated. Seems to me the
best use you could make of it is to store wine or any non-cellulosic
material.
Chris

On 5 Aug, 13:41, " wrote:
I had to underpin the house, damp proof inject the walls,
Neither of these are required, BCO was wrong to insist on those.

Depends if there are any alterations that influence part of the
original structure.

excavate the floor, put in a dpm, radon sump.

fair enough. And insulation.

Not if the work undertaken was a repair.


I've just decided to "repair" the floor rather than "replace" a
section of it. Unfortunately the replacement tiles will be a lot
bigger and a different colour. Thanks for the tip!

Putting a dpm down is a guaranteed way of making the house
uninhabitable. The idea that 2ft thick random stone and mud walls can
be injected with a dpc is lunacy.

T

On 5 Aug, 18:17, wrote:
On 5 Aug, 10:36, wrote:



Hi

I've just discovered a cellar. It's about 2.5m x 3.0m with a vaulted
ceiling and a stone staircase leading up into the house. The ceiling
height at present is over 2.0m, but I suspect if I dig down I will
find a flagstone floor. It's still limewashed, and there are a few
iron hooks on the ceiling.

I'd like to restore it, but I'm concerned that I'm breaking so many
regulations renovating my house that reinstating a cellar might just
get me into an altogether new realm of trouble if I get caught.

Any ideas what to do with it? I quite fancy a small area where the
wife can practice the violin without me having to go outside!

T

Dear Tom
FWIIW I suggest you do the following:
Accpet the manna (sp?) gratefully and put the cellar to the sort of
use that was intended for it when it was first built. this is likely
to be storage (wine or coal depending on its age) but if you want to
upgrade to modern standards be very, very careful how you do it.
I take it that the building is not listed from your reponses to
comments - that is good. I share with Nat Phil the veiw that the last
thing you do is to list it if you can avoid it. Listing is a good
thing in general but is dependent on the whim of the local
conservation officers who vary in competence and understanding from
the plainly obsenely, incompentent purists with no practical
understaning to the very good but in my experience there are more in
practice who tend to the former than the latter description and it is
quite common to find them disagreeing with each other let alone the
BCO!
Do not be tempted to try to make the cellar water proof by tanking -
it will merely cause water to go different routes and maybe in walls
that you do not want it to go! Do, however, introduce subfoor
ventilation (if necesary by excavating a subfoor tube( to get through-
ventilation. Do put in an ISOLATED timber (tanalised) floor if you
want to store things ( or simply some sheet poly?) but bear in mind it
will not be vented and thus is at risk if you have cut any ends of
treated timber. It would be good to reinstate access from inside but
if you do so make sure any staircase is also isolated. Seems to me the
best use you could make of it is to store wine or any non-cellulosic
material.
Chris

Thanks for the advice. I'm pretty sure the cellar was a pantry, there
is no sign of coal dust. Piecing together bits of local history, I
would guess that the cellar dates from the late C17. I doubt I will be
hanging a pig from the hooks on the ceiling any time soon, but a wine
cellar sounds a splendid idea.

I definitely will not be tanking the cellar. I'm trying to ensure the
house stays damp-free by allowing it to breathe. The staircase is
still there and it's made of stone.

T.

In message .com,
writes
Hi

I've just discovered a cellar.


Ooh - dead bodies ....


--
geoff

wrote:
On 5 Aug, 13:41, " wrote:
I had to underpin the house, damp proof inject the walls,
Neither of these are required, BCO was wrong to insist on those.
Depends if there are any alterations that influence part of the
original structure.

excavate the floor, put in a dpm, radon sump.
fair enough. And insulation.
Not if the work undertaken was a repair.


I've just decided to "repair" the floor rather than "replace" a
section of it. Unfortunately the replacement tiles will be a lot
bigger and a different colour. Thanks for the tip!

Putting a dpm down is a guaranteed way of making the house
uninhabitable. The idea that 2ft thick random stone and mud walls can
be injected with a dpc is lunacy.


If the stone is impervious, then its just the mortar that needs it.

There are other ways of slowing water ingress tho.

T

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
wrote:
On 5 Aug, 13:41, " wrote:
I had to underpin the house, damp proof inject the walls,
Neither of these are required, BCO was wrong to insist on those.
Depends if there are any alterations that influence part of the
original structure.

excavate the floor, put in a dpm, radon sump.
fair enough. And insulation.
Not if the work undertaken was a repair.

I've just decided to "repair" the floor rather than "replace" a
section of it. Unfortunately the replacement tiles will be a lot
bigger and a different colour. Thanks for the tip!
Putting a dpm down is a guaranteed way of making the house
uninhabitable. The idea that 2ft thick random stone and mud walls can
be injected with a dpc is lunacy.


If the stone is impervious, then its just the mortar that needs it.

There are other ways of slowing water ingress tho.

Better tell Griff Rhys Jones ...

--
geoff

raden wrote:
In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
wrote:
On 5 Aug, 13:41, " wrote:
I had to underpin the house, damp proof inject the walls,
Neither of these are required, BCO was wrong to insist on those.
Depends if there are any alterations that influence part of the
original structure.

excavate the floor, put in a dpm, radon sump.
fair enough. And insulation.
Not if the work undertaken was a repair.

I've just decided to "repair" the floor rather than "replace" a
section of it. Unfortunately the replacement tiles will be a lot
bigger and a different colour. Thanks for the tip!
Putting a dpm down is a guaranteed way of making the house
uninhabitable. The idea that 2ft thick random stone and mud walls can
be injected with a dpc is lunacy.


If the stone is impervious, then its just the mortar that needs it.

There are other ways of slowing water ingress tho.

Better tell Griff Rhys Jones ...

Yeah..I saw that as well. Poor sod. He really has been a twit: First of
all buying it, and then 'doing it by the book'

If intelligence kicks in, he might finally turn it into a program about
conservation authorities..

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Never go for a listing if you can avoid it. It devalues the house around
30% because it doubles repair costs every time.


If that _really_ is the case then why do so many estate agents headline
property details with the fact that the property is listed? I don't mean
some mention in the small print but the first line describing the
property as "A Grade 2 listed ..." etc.

Andrew

Thanks for the advice. I'm pretty sure the cellar was a pantry, there
is no sign of coal dust. Piecing together bits of local history, I
would guess that the cellar dates from the late C17. I doubt I will be
hanging a pig from the hooks on the ceiling any time soon, but a wine
cellar sounds a splendid idea.

I definitely will not be tanking the cellar. I'm trying to ensure the
house stays damp-free by allowing it to breathe. The staircase is
still there and it's made of stone.

T.
You are "lucky" it is not listed :

from:

http://www.heritage.co.uk/apavilions/glstb.html

"The older a building is, the more likely it is to be listed. All
buildings built before 1700 which survive in anything like their
original condition are listed, as are most built between 1700 and
1840. After that date, the criteria become tighter with time, so that
post-1945 buildings have to be exceptionally important to be listed."
Robert

On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:04:44 +0100 Andrew May wrote :
If that _really_ is the case then why do so many estate agents
headline property details with the fact that the property is listed?

Because it probably impresses the average buyer who finds out too late
what the issues are. I suspect that "Moben kitchen" has a similar
effect.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 02:36:35 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

I've just discovered a cellar. It's about 2.5m x 3.0m with a vaulted
ceiling and a stone staircase leading up into the house. The ceiling
height at present is over 2.0m, but I suspect if I dig down I will
find a flagstone floor. It's still limewashed, and there are a few
iron hooks on the ceiling.

As well as the storage already mentioned, they can make good places
for odd bits of machinery like washing machines. This is likely to
require a pump to raise the output to sewer level, but that is no
great problem despite what the trolls say.

Ventilation is the key to preventing deterioration. An ideal
solution would involve total house ventilation.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 02:36:35 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

I've just discovered a cellar. It's about 2.5m x 3.0m with a vaulted
ceiling and a stone staircase leading up into the house. The ceiling
height at present is over 2.0m, but I suspect if I dig down I will
find a flagstone floor. It's still limewashed, and there are a few
iron hooks on the ceiling.

As well as the storage already mentioned, they can make good places
for odd bits of machinery like washing machines.

Odd bits of machinery? What planet are you from? Suggest that to someone
with a young family

This is likely to
require a pump to raise the output to sewer level, but that is no
great problem despite what the trolls say.

Ventilation is the key to preventing deterioration. An ideal
solution would involve total house ventilation.

Yes, doors and windows are an excellent idea