First a little diversion.

My mother's kitchen ceiling came down as a result of a very slow leak
from a shower pump on the floor above. Man what a mess! Boy did we
laugh! Now she was told that the ceiling artex might contain asbestos.
I scoffed. "They" were right. Luckily insurance paid for everything. I
think the most expensive part of the job was paying for the men in the
space suits to remove the artex.

Second diversion.

My dear old Dad used to work in industrial safety and one of their
profitable sidelines was to sell the space-suit respiratory systems
used by the people stripping asbestos. I vaguely know of "white/grey"
asbestos and the very nasty "blue" asbetos from my departed Dad.
Asbestos has fantastic thermal and heat resistant properties but
tended to do horrible things to those who worked for years with it. I
saw pictures of men shovelling "raw" asbestos in factories. Hence,
legislation to ban the use of the stuff. Don't know all the details
about asbestos but it kept food on our table.

End of diversions

I have bought a small Victorian terrace house in which two rooms have
been "improved" ... by artex on the ceiling. There are other roooms
with with painted anaglypta on the ceilings. It's a mess and it's all
coming off.

Now, I have seen adverts for companies that "specialise" in the
removal of asbetos - and to be honest some of them look like they do
it on an industrial scale for 70's built factories and office blocks.

So ... and this may be the paranoia .. how do I choose a company to
use? I am prepared (almost) for the job to be expensive. However, how
do I trust the results from the company when they take and analyse the
sample and come back saying "oh yes, sir ... asbestos be there"? The
removal of it seems a cosy, legislation-protected cartel to keep
prices high. Believe me, I have a little understanding that asbestos
can cause very nasty medical conditions following prolonged exposure.
But I'm tempted to buy a gallon of Nitromors, good goggles and hire a
forced air, small particulate dust mask and scrapre, scrape, scrape to
get rid of it. Though if I'm honest I wouldn't dump the resulting
asbestos gunge in the bin because of the asbestos - so the diy
approach does't seem to be available.

I have read that one can plaster over artex, and I have a quote for
that - but I just don't trust that approach (paranoia again) - I just
have visions of the new plaster slowly ... slowly detaching itself
from the artex "substrate" and me waking up one morning with a
plaster over-blanket on top of me.

Experience anyone? Suggestions?

Thanks

Clive

"Clive" wrote in message
oups.com...
First a little diversion.

My mother's kitchen ceiling came down as a result of a very slow leak
from a shower pump on the floor above. Man what a mess! Boy did we
laugh! Now she was told that the ceiling artex might contain asbestos.
I scoffed. "They" were right. Luckily insurance paid for everything. I
think the most expensive part of the job was paying for the men in the
space suits to remove the artex.

Second diversion.

My dear old Dad used to work in industrial safety and one of their
profitable sidelines was to sell the space-suit respiratory systems
used by the people stripping asbestos. I vaguely know of "white/grey"
asbestos and the very nasty "blue" asbetos from my departed Dad.
Asbestos has fantastic thermal and heat resistant properties but
tended to do horrible things to those who worked for years with it. I
saw pictures of men shovelling "raw" asbestos in factories. Hence,
legislation to ban the use of the stuff. Don't know all the details
about asbestos but it kept food on our table.

End of diversions

I have bought a small Victorian terrace house in which two rooms have
been "improved" ... by artex on the ceiling. There are other roooms
with with painted anaglypta on the ceilings. It's a mess and it's all
coming off.

Now, I have seen adverts for companies that "specialise" in the
removal of asbetos - and to be honest some of them look like they do
it on an industrial scale for 70's built factories and office blocks.

So ... and this may be the paranoia .. how do I choose a company to
use? I am prepared (almost) for the job to be expensive. However, how
do I trust the results from the company when they take and analyse the
sample and come back saying "oh yes, sir ... asbestos be there"? The
removal of it seems a cosy, legislation-protected cartel to keep
prices high. Believe me, I have a little understanding that asbestos
can cause very nasty medical conditions following prolonged exposure.
But I'm tempted to buy a gallon of Nitromors, good goggles and hire a
forced air, small particulate dust mask and scrapre, scrape, scrape to
get rid of it. Though if I'm honest I wouldn't dump the resulting
asbestos gunge in the bin because of the asbestos - so the diy
approach does't seem to be available.

I have read that one can plaster over artex, and I have a quote for
that - but I just don't trust that approach (paranoia again) - I just
have visions of the new plaster slowly ... slowly detaching itself
from the artex "substrate" and me waking up one morning with a
plaster over-blanket on top of me.

Experience anyone? Suggestions?


Don't underestimate the amount of work involved or the amount of mess you
can make. You'll likely end up having to have the stripped ceilings skimmed
with plaster anyway.

If it's a downstairs room then there will be substantial joists above. The
easiest thing is to screw a new plasterboard ceiling over the whole lot and
start again. I did this in a previous house over badly craked lath and
plaster and had no problems.

I also had Artex skimmed level in a previous house. With a good coat of PVA
before the plaster, it worked fine, and there were no problems with
detachment at least over the ten years we were there.

Hope this helps

I have read that one can plaster over artex, and I have a quote for
that - but I just don't trust that approach (paranoia again) - I just
have visions of the new plaster slowly ... slowly detaching itself
from the artex "substrate" and me waking up one morning with a
plaster over-blanket on top of me.



I had all the Artex skimmed over in my place and its fine. It was
coated with PVA before hand and it aint come down yet!

In message .com,
Clive writes
End of diversions

I have bought a small Victorian terrace house in which two rooms have
been "improved" ... by artex on the ceiling. There are other roooms
with with painted anaglypta on the ceilings. It's a mess and it's all
coming off.


So ... and this may be the paranoia .. how do I choose a company to
use? I am prepared (almost) for the job to be expensive. However, how
do I trust the results from the company when they take and analyse the
sample and come back saying "oh yes, sir ... asbestos be there"?

you get an test done by an independent company, with no interest in the
results

The
removal of it seems a cosy, legislation-protected cartel to keep
prices high. Believe me, I have a little understanding that asbestos
can cause very nasty medical conditions following prolonged exposure.

I. it may not contain asbestos anyway.

2. The asbestos is fine whilst in the artes, creating dust is the
problem.

I have read that one can plaster over artex, and I have a quote for
that - but I just don't trust that approach (paranoia again) - I just
have visions of the new plaster slowly ... slowly detaching itself
from the artex "substrate" and me waking up one morning with a
plaster over-blanket on top of me.

Experience anyone? Suggestions?


I've had artex skimmed, it's fine.

Though I'd go for the overboarding with plasterboard approach (with a
skim if you want)

The latter is DIY-able - maybe not the skim.
--
Chris French

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 02:28:04 -0700, Clive
wrote:

So ... and this may be the paranoia .. how do I choose a company to
use? I am prepared (almost) for the job to be expensive. However, how
do I trust the results from the company when they take and analyse the
sample and come back saying "oh yes, sir ... asbestos be there"?

It probably will be and its simpler simply to assume it is. Artex was
is an asbestos cement product and contained as its major ingredients
chalk (calcium carbonate) and gypsum plaster (calcium sulphate).
Typically the dry powdered mix for trade use Artex contained about
3.8% w/w of chrysotile asbestos and the ready mixed DIY product about
1.8%.

removal of it seems a cosy, legislation-protected cartel to keep
prices high.

It is an enormous fraud, but Artex removal does not require the use
of a licensed contractor. Despite furious lobbying by the asbestos
scam industry it was removed from the regulatory regime by the
Control of Asbestos Regulations 2006 because the risk is negligible.
If it is removed then whoever removes should be appropriately trained
but does not need to be licensed. This means most local plasterers
or builders could undertake the work or you can DIY.

Believe me, I have a little understanding that asbestos
can cause very nasty medical conditions following prolonged exposure.
But I'm tempted to buy a gallon of Nitromors, good goggles and hire a
forced air, small particulate dust mask and scrapre, scrape, scrape to
get rid of it.

The safest and best way of dealing with it is to simply skim over the
top with plaster. This doesn't have so much to do with its Chrysotile
content as the fact that Artex is very difficult to remove without
destroying the ceiling and even when possible is an enormously messy
and time consuming task. Left alone or covered with plaster it is no
health risk at all.

Though if I'm honest I wouldn't dump the resulting
asbestos gunge in the bin because of the asbestos - so the diy
approach does't seem to be available.

It's quite available - most councils have at least one local amenity
waste site registered to take asbestos cement waste brought by
private individuals.
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On 26 Jul, 10:28, Clive wrote:
First a little diversion.

My mother's kitchen ceiling came down as a result of a very slow leak
from a shower pump on the floor above. Man what a mess! Boy did we
laugh! Now she was told that the ceiling artex might contain asbestos.
I scoffed. "They" were right. Luckily insurance paid for everything. I
think the most expensive part of the job was paying for the men in the
space suits to remove the artex.

Second diversion.

My dear old Dad used to work in industrial safety and one of their
profitable sidelines was to sell the space-suit respiratory systems
used by the people stripping asbestos. I vaguely know of "white/grey"
asbestos and the very nasty "blue" asbetos from my departed Dad.
Asbestos has fantastic thermal and heat resistant properties but
tended to do horrible things to those who worked for years with it. I
saw pictures of men shovelling "raw" asbestos in factories. Hence,
legislation to ban the use of the stuff. Don't know all the details
about asbestos but it kept food on our table.

End of diversions

I have bought a small Victorian terrace house in which two rooms have
been "improved" ... by artex on the ceiling. There are other roooms
with with painted anaglypta on the ceilings. It's a mess and it's all
coming off.

Now, I have seen adverts for companies that "specialise" in the
removal of asbetos - and to be honest some of them look like they do
it on an industrial scale for 70's built factories and office blocks.

So ... and this may be the paranoia .. how do I choose a company to
use? I am prepared (almost) for the job to be expensive. However, how
do I trust the results from the company when they take and analyse the
sample and come back saying "oh yes, sir ... asbestos be there"? The
removal of it seems a cosy, legislation-protected cartel to keep
prices high. Believe me, I have a little understanding that asbestos
can cause very nasty medical conditions following prolonged exposure.
But I'm tempted to buy a gallon of Nitromors, good goggles and hire a
forced air, small particulate dust mask and scrapre, scrape, scrape to
get rid of it. Though if I'm honest I wouldn't dump the resulting
asbestos gunge in the bin because of the asbestos - so the diy
approach does't seem to be available.

I have read that one can plaster over artex, and I have a quote for
that - but I just don't trust that approach (paranoia again) - I just
have visions of the new plaster slowly ... slowly detaching itself
from the artex "substrate" and me waking up one morning with a
plaster over-blanket on top of me.

Experience anyone? Suggestions?

Thanks

Clive


I work for a university and my office is in a building that is soon to
'treated' for asbestos. The building has 6 upper floors and at least
2 basement levels and each floor of the building is going to be
evacuated including desks and files for several weeks at a time. The
treatment for each floor will involve hermetically sealing each floor
and then employing air treatment machines until the air is found to be
clean.
But this method is probably necessary because some floors of the
building are open plan.

For your problem, is it feasible to rip out the entire ceiling?
Hopefully it is plasterboard in which case you could spray or paint a
sealant onto both sides and take the ceiling out piece by piece.
Even if the ceiling is lath and plaster your house might have to be
evacuated
for a week or more. In which case then if you have removed the
infected crap then
you could hire air treatment plant and employ a environmental
monitoring technician to monitor the air treatment test results.

Just my tuppence worth.

Arthur

"Clive" wrote in message
oups.com...

I have read that one can plaster over artex, and I have a quote for
that - but I just don't trust that approach (paranoia again) - I just
have visions of the new plaster slowly ... slowly detaching itself
from the artex "substrate" and me waking up one morning with a
plaster over-blanket on top of me.

Experience anyone? Suggestions?

Thanks

Clive


Plasterboard over it,its the cleanest and soundest way.

Peter Parry wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 02:28:04 -0700, Clive
wrote:

So ... and this may be the paranoia .. how do I choose a company to
use? I am prepared (almost) for the job to be expensive. However, how
do I trust the results from the company when they take and analyse the
sample and come back saying "oh yes, sir ... asbestos be there"?

It probably will be and its simpler simply to assume it is. Artex was
is an asbestos cement product and contained as its major ingredients
chalk (calcium carbonate) and gypsum plaster (calcium sulphate).
Typically the dry powdered mix for trade use Artex contained about
3.8% w/w of chrysotile asbestos and the ready mixed DIY product about
1.8%.

removal of it seems a cosy, legislation-protected cartel to keep
prices high.

It is an enormous fraud, but Artex removal does not require the use
of a licensed contractor. Despite furious lobbying by the asbestos
scam industry it was removed from the regulatory regime by the
Control of Asbestos Regulations 2006 because the risk is negligible.
If it is removed then whoever removes should be appropriately trained
but does not need to be licensed. This means most local plasterers
or builders could undertake the work or you can DIY.

Believe me, I have a little understanding that asbestos
can cause very nasty medical conditions following prolonged exposure.
But I'm tempted to buy a gallon of Nitromors, good goggles and hire a
forced air, small particulate dust mask and scrapre, scrape, scrape to
get rid of it.

The safest and best way of dealing with it is to simply skim over the
top with plaster. This doesn't have so much to do with its Chrysotile
content as the fact that Artex is very difficult to remove without
destroying the ceiling and even when possible is an enormously messy
and time consuming task. Left alone or covered with plaster it is no
health risk at all.

Though if I'm honest I wouldn't dump the resulting
asbestos gunge in the bin because of the asbestos - so the diy
approach does't seem to be available.

It's quite available - most councils have at least one local amenity
waste site registered to take asbestos cement waste brought by
private individuals.

There you are, the sane sensible answer you wanted.

Asbestos was only ever dangerous in high concentrations as *dust*.
Shoved in landfill its just another load of mineral waste.

Peter is dead right, the stuff sticks like **** to a shovel, and since
one of its most common uses was to cover up the paper that had been
applied to keep the ceiling up. if there is any sign that the ceiling
itself is dodgy, or you can combine this with a bit or pipe and cable
laying to justify it, rip the whole ceiling down and replace with
plasterboard. Shove the old plasterboard in a skip, or plastic bags and
take to the dump. Act dumb 'it's plasterboard. that's all'

Though if I'm honest I wouldn't dump the resulting
asbestos gunge in the bin because of the asbestos - so the diy
approach does't seem to be available.

It's quite available - most councils have at least one local amenity
waste site registered to take asbestos cement waste brought by
private individuals.
--

Or they use another council's waste. For example, Enfield council tell you
to take it to a tip in Islington, but you have to phone them first to warn
them.

Of course, the above only applies if you _know_ it's asbestos that you're
chucking ...

Artex removal

Hire a wallpaper steamer and a scraper to scrape it off...........Messy but
it does work

Thanks for all your help and advice.

I have contacted http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk and I will
carefully take the samples from the two rooms, send them in double
sealed bags, my cheque for £40 then await the results from an
independent lab.


Thanks again.

Clive

On 26 Jul, 10:28, Clive wrote:


Experience anyone?

No thanks, I've had some already.

Suggestions?
Removal contractors are usually the worst gang of devious,
incompetent, unscrupulous rip-off merchants that you'll ever have the
misfortune to encounter.
Many of those in the trade flout the regulations with utter disregard
for their own and everyone elses' safety. They mostly have no interest
in their own welfare, beyond where the next drink is coming from, and
they're certainly not bothered about yours. They usually tape off the
area, more to prevent you seeing what they're doing than to contain
the fibres. They then bash the asbestos-containing material into dust
with a shovel and the shovel it up, confident that no one will come
through the barriers to see what they're doing.

They then issue a certificate, saying the area is clear.

The only way you'll be sure they're not ripping you off is by learning
more about the business than they do and chucking them off site when
they start the dodgy practices.


Thanks

You're welcome.

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:38:58 -0000, Clive
mused:

Thanks for all your help and advice.

I have contacted http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk and I will
carefully take the samples from the two rooms, send them in double
sealed bags, my cheque for £40 then await the results from an
independent lab.


Erm, did anyone suggest that? Sounds like just the sort of ripoff you
are trying to avoid.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

Clive wrote:


snip


I have bought a small Victorian terrace house in which two rooms have
been "improved" ... by artex on the ceiling. There are other roooms
with with painted anaglypta on the ceilings. It's a mess and it's all
coming off.

Now, I have seen adverts for companies that "specialise" in the
removal of asbetos - and to be honest some of them look like they do
it on an industrial scale for 70's built factories and office blocks.

So ... and this may be the paranoia .. how do I choose a company to
use? I am prepared (almost) for the job to be expensive. However, how
do I trust the results from the company when they take and analyse the
sample and come back saying "oh yes, sir ... asbestos be there"? The
removal of it seems a cosy, legislation-protected cartel to keep
prices high. Believe me, I have a little understanding that asbestos
can cause very nasty medical conditions following prolonged exposure.
But I'm tempted to buy a gallon of Nitromors, good goggles and hire a
forced air, small particulate dust mask and scrapre, scrape, scrape to
get rid of it. Though if I'm honest I wouldn't dump the resulting
asbestos gunge in the bin because of the asbestos - so the diy
approach does't seem to be available.


As a youngster in the 1960's, I installed fireproofing asbestos boards
in buildings, sawing 8' by 4' panels and consequently took a great
interest in the 70's to the "Asbestos Affair". There was an issue for
people involved in the abstraction, manufacture and maintenance of
products including certain types of asbestos. It is the prolonged
exposure to certain types of dust that are/ were critical; and indeed it
does appear that secondary exposure, such as those of people washing the
overalls of workers in asbestos may have contracted the terminal illness
this way.

As a curious science student in those days, I took a great interest in
these issues. I also was later involved with the CEGB and the water
industry where asbestos pipes were used.

The issue as I understand it relates to the continuous exposure to the
dust of two types of asbestos ( sadly, I cannot recall the two types
now - and I hope that this is not a symptom of my exposure!).

Another poster has referred to a change in the legislation.

The issue of asbestos exposure today is totally OTT. It is barely an
issue - just a money making racket generated by the public paranoia.

I have no qualms working with any product suspected of containing
asbestos provided the material is damp and is not allowed to generate
dust.

snip

On 2007-07-31 22:38:58 +0100, Clive said:

Thanks for all your help and advice.

I have contacted http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk and I will
carefully take the samples from the two rooms, send them in double
sealed bags, my cheque for £40 then await the results from an
independent lab.


Thanks again.

Clive

You're still writing cheques?

Oh dear. Someone appears to have seen you coming........

"clot" wrote in message
...

The issue as I understand it relates to the continuous exposure to the
dust of two types of asbestos ( sadly, I cannot recall the two types now -
and I hope that this is not a symptom of my exposure!).

You appear to misunderstand then.
One exposure can give you asbestosis.
Multiple exposures just increases the chances.

However IIRC its not much worse than smoking and people still do that.
Another poster has referred to a change in the legislation.

The issue of asbestos exposure today is totally OTT. It is barely an
issue - just a money making racket generated by the public paranoia.

I have no qualms working with any product suspected of containing asbestos
provided the material is damp and is not allowed to generate dust.


Just don't saw, sand, etc. asbestos anywhere near me or my family.


snip

On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:44:23 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

"clot" wrote

The issue as I understand it relates to the continuous exposure to the
dust of two types of asbestos ( sadly, I cannot recall the two types now -
and I hope that this is not a symptom of my exposure!).

You appear to misunderstand then.
One exposure can give you asbestosis.

Standing in the street can get you hit by a falling aircraft.

Amphibole (Blue and Brown Asbestos) fibres stay in the lung for a
very long time and are the most hazardous. Chrysotile (White
asbestos used in asbestos cement product) is both structurally and
chemically different from the amphiboles, stays in the lungs a much
shorter time and is significantly less hazardous.

With both types there is a well established dose/time relationship
with illness. The greater the exposure and the longer the time of
exposure the greater the risk. The vast majority of asbestos related
deaths are in people who have had heavy industrial exposure for many
years. The greatest risk today is amongst people employed daily in
the renovations and repairs of older buildings.

Every day everyone has some exposure to Asbestos, it is present in
microscopic amounts in the atmosphere (and quite large amounts on
London Underground). One exposure to Amphibole Asbestos could in
theory give you mesothelioma or lung cancer (it won't cause
asbestosis) but the chances of it doing so are vanishingly small. The
chances of one exposure to Chrysotile doing so are on a par with that
aircraft hitting you on the head.

Multiple exposures just increases the chances.

Multiple exposure to large amounts increases the chances hugely. The
risk from occasional exposure to asbestos cement products is so low
that in the process of demolishing an asbestos cement shed, packaging
the remains and driving it to the tip the most hazardous part of the
process would be the drive to the tip.



--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In message , "dennis@home"
writes

"clot" wrote in message
...

The issue as I understand it relates to the continuous exposure to the
dust of two types of asbestos ( sadly, I cannot recall the two types now -
and I hope that this is not a symptom of my exposure!).

You appear to misunderstand then.
One exposure can give you asbestosis.
Multiple exposures just increases the chances.

However IIRC its not much worse than smoking and people still do that.
Another poster has referred to a change in the legislation.

The issue of asbestos exposure today is totally OTT. It is barely an
issue - just a money making racket generated by the public paranoia.

I have no qualms working with any product suspected of containing asbestos
provided the material is damp and is not allowed to generate dust.


Just don't saw, sand, etc. asbestos anywhere near me or my family.

As I said, if you're anywhere near Brum or N Wales, I prolly already
have done

--
geoff

dennis@home wrote:
"clot" wrote in message
...

The issue as I understand it relates to the continuous exposure to
the dust of two types of asbestos ( sadly, I cannot recall the two
types now - and I hope that this is not a symptom of my exposure!).

You appear to misunderstand then.
One exposure can give you asbestosis.
Multiple exposures just increases the chances.

However IIRC its not much worse than smoking and people still do that.
Another poster has referred to a change in the legislation.

The issue of asbestos exposure today is totally OTT. It is barely an
issue - just a money making racket generated by the public paranoia.

I have no qualms working with any product suspected of containing
asbestos provided the material is damp and is not allowed to
generate dust.

Just don't saw, sand, etc. asbestos anywhere near me or my family.



As Peter Parry has responded, we need to appreciate what and where/how
we are working/ living/ exposed to these issues. Today, we have gone OTT
on asbestos to the detriment of UK PLC. Today, exposure to asbestos dust
is not an issue, other than to those removing it and it is debatable as
to whether the removable is of benefit!

I could have a personal issue of exposure in the near future in that I
now am semi retired am have the good fortune to be fit and have the
opportunity to fettle a motorcar (manuf in 1957) that I haven't used
since 1986. I shall have to inspect and service / replace the drums and
shoes - I hope I'm allowed to? Oh bugger, I've now told you that I might
have asbestos shoes. Please may I still use the motor? I'd like to do
less than 1k per annum to local shows, or is this too much of a risk to
the local populace?

clot wrote:


As Peter Parry has responded, we need to appreciate what and where/how
we are working/ living/ exposed to these issues. Today, we have gone OTT
on asbestos to the detriment of UK PLC. Today, exposure to asbestos dust
is not an issue, other than to those removing it and it is debatable as
to whether the removable is of benefit!

Indeed. No one wants to think in terms of national cost benefit..how
much more money would be available for healthcare if we stopped wasting
it on getting rid of extremely minimal health hazards.

I think its really because social sciences grads can't do sums. Even
taking off their socks and using their toes..



I could have a personal issue of exposure in the near future in that I
now am semi retired am have the good fortune to be fit and have the
opportunity to fettle a motorcar (manuf in 1957) that I haven't used
since 1986. I shall have to inspect and service / replace the drums and
shoes - I hope I'm allowed to? Oh bugger, I've now told you that I might
have asbestos shoes. Please may I still use the motor? I'd like to do
less than 1k per annum to local shows, or is this too much of a risk to
the local populace?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
clot wrote:


As Peter Parry has responded, we need to appreciate what and
where/how we are working/ living/ exposed to these issues. Today, we
have gone OTT on asbestos to the detriment of UK PLC. Today,
exposure to asbestos dust is not an issue, other than to those
removing it and it is debatable as to whether the removable is of
benefit!

Indeed. No one wants to think in terms of national cost benefit..how
much more money would be available for healthcare if we stopped
wasting it on getting rid of extremely minimal health hazards.

I think its really because social sciences grads can't do sums. Even
taking off their socks and using their toes..

I couldn't agree more. And sadly it will get worse for a long time -
less science students and more of the arty farty type that seem to have
difficulty with rational thought!



snip