"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-18 21:07:37 +0100, "ARWadsworth"
said:


"Owain" wrote in message
...
ARWadsworth wrote:
I assumed the implication that the child is a ******* was not a dig at
a lack of wedlock. It was a way to describe having to go to B&Q for a
child. My Grandad can be "an annoying old *******" when he phones to
say he is having trouble with the TV remote etc and he was born in
wedlock. The Natural Philosopher used the words "little *******".

I agree.

That is more like a term of endearment.

I wouldn't go *that* far in my assumptions :-)

What term would you use for your Grandad when you have to take him
shopping for electrical goods and he refuses everything from Germay and
Japan and wants to see the English stuff. Comet and Currys staff avoid
him like the plague and I am surprised he is not banned from either.

Adam

That's a challenge.

Not for cars. The French still make them. A pity they drop to bits though.

Options might be Poland, Hungary, Romania. Some manufacturers have
factories in these places and at least Poland ought to be acceptable.

He did actually make it to Poland in the war and had to retreat to let the
red army in.

He also loves Belgium (someone has to) and was there the night Brussels was
liberated. He estimated 2000 people did the conga through a cafe that linked
two streets.
I am sure he once bought a Ferguson TV because it was made in Belgium. Of
course everything now says built/assembled in the EU.

Otherwise, how about the Lucky Goldstar company. Korea should be OK as
well, and the company has abbreviated its name to LG to appear more
discrete in the West.

I think he will buy Korean without argument.

Adam

"Clive George" wrote in message
...
"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "ARWadsworth" contains these words:

What term would you use for your Grandad when you have to take him
shopping
for electrical goods and he refuses everything from Germay and Japan and
wants to see the English stuff.

Hero?

If he fought in the 2nd world war (or even just lived through it) then
he has a right to feel aggrieved about the way in which the counties
that thankfully lost the war have now won the peace.

Don't think so. It would be rather better to be happy that the countries
which demonstrated such bad behaviour have put all that behind them. The
people in those countries are no longer the same people he fought - there
have been 2 or 3 generations since.


I know those countries have but it behind them. There were more Germans at
Auschwitz paying their regards when I visited than there people like my
Grandad.

"Misguided" would be the word I'd use, but at this stage in his life I
wouldn't necessarily be trying to reeducate him.

I would say stubborn not misguided. There is no point arguing with an
intelligent old man so let him buy what he wants even if quality is not an
issue.

Adam

On 2007-07-19 18:13:20 +0100, "ARWadsworth"
said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-18 21:07:37 +0100, "ARWadsworth"
said:


"Owain" wrote in message
...
ARWadsworth wrote:

What term would you use for your Grandad when you have to take him
shopping for electrical goods and he refuses everything from Germay and
Japan and wants to see the English stuff. Comet and Currys staff avoid
him like the plague and I am surprised he is not banned from either.

Adam

That's a challenge.

Not for cars. The French still make them. A pity they drop to bits though.

I saw a Dacia today. Now there's a special product.



Options might be Poland, Hungary, Romania. Some manufacturers have
factories in these places and at least Poland ought to be acceptable.

He did actually make it to Poland in the war and had to retreat to let
the red army in.

He also loves Belgium (someone has to) and was there the night Brussels
was liberated.

That must have been some experience. My mother visited there
shortly afterwards and still describes how women accused of
collaborating had their heads shaved.

He estimated 2000 people did the conga through a cafe that linked two streets.
I am sure he once bought a Ferguson TV because it was made in Belgium.
Of course everything now says built/assembled in the EU.

Otherwise, how about the Lucky Goldstar company. Korea should be OK as
well, and the company has abbreviated its name to LG to appear more
discrete in the West.

I think he will buy Korean without argument.

So there you are. There's always a way once you know the sensitivities.



Adam

On 2007-07-19 18:26:47 +0100, "ARWadsworth"
said:


"Clive George" wrote in message
...
"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "ARWadsworth" contains these words:

What term would you use for your Grandad when you have to take him shopping
for electrical goods and he refuses everything from Germay and Japan and
wants to see the English stuff.

Hero?

If he fought in the 2nd world war (or even just lived through it) then
he has a right to feel aggrieved about the way in which the counties
that thankfully lost the war have now won the peace.

Don't think so. It would be rather better to be happy that the
countries which demonstrated such bad behaviour have put all that
behind them. The people in those countries are no longer the same
people he fought - there have been 2 or 3 generations since.


I know those countries have but it behind them.

Yes and no.


There were more Germans at Auschwitz paying their regards when I
visited than there people like my Grandad.

Of course. There aren't large numbers of people left like your grandad.

I go to Germany quite often, and have been doing so for over 20 years
and on a first social meeting with a new contact it is very usual that
they will raise the subject. It used to be that there was a bit of a
guilt agenda behind this although it related to what parents had
sometimes done. Nowadays it's an acknowledgment of what happened - not
even a suggestion that "we've changed all these things so it won't
happen again" . There are certainly educational visits to Dachau and
such places and it's treated as part of history. I certainly didn't
have the impression that it was being sanitised but there wasn't
sackcloth and ashes either.




"Misguided" would be the word I'd use, but at this stage in his life I
wouldn't necessarily be trying to reeducate him.

I would say stubborn not misguided.

I would say principled. There are too few people who are willing to
take a position on what they feel is important and to act accordingly.


There is no point arguing with an intelligent old man so let him buy
what he wants even if quality is not an issue.

I couldn't agree more. I'm sure that he's nobody's fool either and
almost certainly realises that products from former adversarial
countries are of good quality, but principle won't allow him to buy
them.

It's a waste of time having such a discussion in somewhere like
Curry's. They can't even manage to provide sensible customer service
on their wide range of products, let alone taking customer buying
criteria into account.

Here's a suggestion.

Next time he wantsto buy something, find a local retailer. Most of
them belong to purchasing consortia in order to compete with the big
boys anyway and pricing is fairly keen usually. If you do a bit of
research including manufacturers, you can usually find something that
will have been made in an acceptable country and won't be crap. He
won't have changed the world, but this level of detail for someone with
a lot of time with their thoughts won't go unnoticed.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

I go to Germany quite often, and have been doing so for over 20 years and
on a first social meeting with a new contact it is very usual that they
will raise the subject. It used to be that there was a bit of a guilt
agenda behind this although it related to what parents had sometimes done.
Nowadays it's an acknowledgment of what happened - not even a suggestion
that "we've changed all these things so it won't happen again" . There
are certainly educational visits to Dachau and such places and it's
treated as part of history. I certainly didn't have the impression that
it was being sanitised but there wasn't sackcloth and ashes either.

I would be extremely disappointed if it were sackcloth and ashes. Over half
a century, or a couple of generations, means it is definitely part of
history. I believe they've still got the laws in place to prevent a similar
thing happening again, and I think this is a good thing - learning from
history is sensible (mmm, Afghanistan...), but otherwise it really is far
enough away that it is well past the time to forgive and move on.

(now if one were eg berating the Japanese for some of their current cultural
problems, I'd not be arguing so much...)

I would say principled. There are too few people who are willing to
take a position on what they feel is important and to act accordingly.

Regardless of what that position is? Having "principles" isn't necessarily a
good thing - it rather depends on what they are. In this case it's fairly
harmless - but not necessarily for others. (although some of the worse ones
can be quite good for GDP)

clive

On 2007-07-19 20:01:11 +0100, "Clive George" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

I go to Germany quite often, and have been doing so for over 20 years
and on a first social meeting with a new contact it is very usual that
they will raise the subject. It used to be that there was a bit of a
guilt agenda behind this although it related to what parents had
sometimes done. Nowadays it's an acknowledgment of what happened - not
even a suggestion that "we've changed all these things so it won't
happen again" . There are certainly educational visits to Dachau and
such places and it's treated as part of history. I certainly didn't
have the impression that it was being sanitised but there wasn't
sackcloth and ashes either.

I would be extremely disappointed if it were sackcloth and ashes. Over
half a century, or a couple of generations, means it is definitely part
of history. I believe they've still got the laws in place to prevent a
similar thing happening again, and I think this is a good thing -
learning from history is sensible (mmm, Afghanistan...), but otherwise
it really is far enough away that it is well past the time to forgive
and move on.

Forgive. Possible for most, not for some.

Forget. No, and that would be wrong...

The challenge is how to treat each.



(now if one were eg berating the Japanese for some of their current
cultural problems, I'd not be arguing so much...)

One thing that I have learned over many years of traveling and meeting
people in a wide range of countries and cultures is that it really
isn't appropriate to berate them for theirs. They are what they are
and I think that it's bogus to propose changes for the purposes of
"betterment" (meaning do what we do). That's the behaviour of the
chimpanzee in Pennsylvania Ave. Perhaps people don't actually want
McDonalds, Starbucks and Nikes. Worst still, if they have had none of
these, they aren't exactly a quality introduction to the western way
and the global economy.

It's very noticable that as one moves outside of cosy Western Europe
that the spectrum between the haves and have nots becomes very wide
indeed. In the past couple of weeks, I've seen a little girl of
probably no more than 5 dodging between cars at traffic lights with a
squeezy bottle of water cleaning wing mirrors.



I would say principled. There are too few people who are willing to
take a position on what they feel is important and to act accordingly.

Regardless of what that position is? Having "principles" isn't
necessarily a good thing - it rather depends on what they are.

Of course.


In this case it's fairly harmless - but not necessarily for others.
(although some of the worse ones can be quite good for GDP)

Or bad.

For example, the operation of the Janus principle when buying things.
The one face bemoaning the loss of UK manufacturing while the other
wants to buy for the lowest price regardless of that.

BTW, I wouldn't apply this to Adam's grandad - that's quite a different
set of issues.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

I would be extremely disappointed if it were sackcloth and ashes. Over
half a century, or a couple of generations, means it is definitely part
of history. I believe they've still got the laws in place to prevent a
similar thing happening again, and I think this is a good thing -
learning from history is sensible (mmm, Afghanistan...), but otherwise it
really is far enough away that it is well past the time to forgive and
move on.

Forgive. Possible for most, not for some.

Forget. No, and that would be wrong...

Indeed - history isn't about forgetting, rather the opposite.

(now if one were eg berating the Japanese for some of their current
cultural problems, I'd not be arguing so much...)

One thing that I have learned over many years of traveling and meeting
people in a wide range of countries and cultures is that it really isn't
appropriate to berate them for theirs. They are what they are and I
think that it's bogus to propose changes for the purposes of "betterment"
(meaning do what we do).

I suspect you may be thinking of different "problems" to those I'm thinking
of. I was remembering what I've heard that being Gaijin in the country
presents problems beyond the obvious language and cultural barriers. Not
severe, but still relevant to the topic which started this subthread.

FWIW would you say that the significantly more severe problems which regimes
like those in Burma present "are what they are", or are worthy of berating
(though probably not while actually in the country...)

Perhaps people don't actually want McDonalds, Starbucks and Nikes.

I sympathise with that view, but that's a different matter.

clive

On 2007-07-19 20:44:42 +0100, "Clive George" said:


I suspect you may be thinking of different "problems" to those I'm
thinking of. I was remembering what I've heard that being Gaijin in the
country presents problems beyond the obvious language and cultural
barriers. Not severe, but still relevant to the topic which started
this subthread.



FWIW would you say that the significantly more severe problems which
regimes like those in Burma present "are what they are", or are worthy
of berating (though probably not while actually in the country...)

Then I think it comes to practicalities.

Do I like the regime in Burma? Not really

Can I or am I willing to try to make a difference to it? Realistically
no. Even this is after one removes the media slanting.

Do I want to visit or do business there? Not really. Europe,
Africa and the Middle East are challenging enough.

None of us can fight every battle so I think it makes more sense to
look at those where we can make some difference




Perhaps people don't actually want McDonalds, Starbucks and Nikes.

I sympathise with that view, but that's a different matter.

clive