HI Dave

On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 14:47:22 +0100, "Dave Baker"
wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
.. .
(My present [petrol] car doesn't even have a distributor!)

Yes - that's the kind of 'fixed by the dealer only' deal I'm trying to
get away from.

Still smarting from the grief and aggravation caused by the failure of
a £5 fuel sensor on my old Merc A-class. Because the sensor decided to
fail, the ECU shut 'everything' down - at 8;30 am in the outside lane
of the M25 just before the big bridge - en-route for a transatlantic
flight. No 'ah well - we'll just let you limp to the hard shoulder' -
just 'off'. Not good....

There's something to be said for the 'low-tech' approach !

I think low tech cars are just as capable of doing that, maybe more so. I
had an old A reg 1.1 VW Polo briefly as a stop-gap car a few years ago and
it was fine for a hundred miles or so and then began conking out abruptly on
an ever more frequent basis. Usually at speed and therefore usually on a
dual carriageway or motorway in the least convenient place possible. I
remember one time in the outside lane of the M40 in rush hour traffic
leaving me to dart through the other two lanes at 70 mph onto the hard
shoulder with a stone dead engine. 5 minutes later it would start straight
up as if to say "What, me??" and then it would conk again a few miles later.

I spent weeks working through every bit of the electrics and carbs to no
avail. The one thing I didn't look at was the fuel filter because the
previous guy had just put a new one on it. Turned out the petrol tank had so
much rust in it the new filter was already blocked and that was all the
problem was. Let it sit for a few minutes and the crap fell back to the
bottom of the filter and it would start and then as all the crap got stirred
up again when you were driving it would block it back up. I bought a couple
of cheap plastic filters for a quid apiece, changed them over a few times
and cleaned the used one out each time until all the rust had been caught
and it was actually quite a nice little car from then on. Hardly a fireball
but 50 mpg was a considerable compensation.


I had a very similar experience with a 1.8 VW Golf.
Turned out to be a blocked vent-hole in the petrol filler cap.....
eventually !!

Regards
Adrian

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...



I think low tech cars are just as capable of doing that, maybe more so. I
had an old A reg 1.1 VW Polo briefly as a stop-gap car a few years .
Hardly a fireball but 50 mpg was a considerable compensation.


So, better than the Prius then? And I bet you didn't pay more for it than 2
months worth of depreciation for the P... I'm sure we live in a land of
make believe reference the 'green' hype surrounding these new vehicles.

Julian

"Julian" wrote in message
...

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...



I think low tech cars are just as capable of doing that, maybe more so. I
had an old A reg 1.1 VW Polo briefly as a stop-gap car a few years .
Hardly a fireball but 50 mpg was a considerable compensation.


So, better than the Prius then? And I bet you didn't pay more for it than
2 months worth of depreciation for the P... I'm sure we live in a land of
make believe reference the 'green' hype surrounding these new vehicles.

We've had debates about this sort of thing on uk.rec.cars.maintenance a
couple of times and my opinion FWIW is that much of the 'progress' in cars
over say the last 25 years has been retrograde. I have no doubt that
handling, ergonomics, comfort, safety has generally improved but all the
added complication has added weight and cost and use of resources with no
real net improvement in fuel consumption. Owner servicing and repairing is
almost a thing of the past because no one understands what the hell any of
the bits under the bonnet do anymore.

The average hatchback now weighs almost 50% more than its 1980 predecessor
and the one thing physics tells us is you can't shift extra mass from A to B
without incurring a fuel penalty. As a result the most economical cars I've
owned have been old, light ones with simple carburetors. The Polo mentioned
above which averaged 40 mpg although I could get 50 mpg if I wanted to drive
sedately and next best was a 1983 Metro even though I modified that fairly
outrageously with a 1380 engine, big valve ported head, LCB exhaust manifold
and straight through system and a rally camshaft. It had 40 bhp at the
wheels as standard and 84 bhp on the same rollers when I'd finished but it
still averaged 35 mpg over 20,000 miles despite getting the arse thrashed
off it nearly everywhere I went. My 1983 Astra GTE with a simple Bosch L
injection system averaged 31 mpg and my current 2.0 Focus with 20 years of
extra technology inside averages exactly 30.

I think modern engines are generally somewhat more economical per bhp but
all the extra weight exactly negates that.

Dave Baker wrote:
"Julian" wrote in message
...
"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...
I think low tech cars are just as capable of doing that, maybe more so. I
had an old A reg 1.1 VW Polo briefly as a stop-gap car a few years .
Hardly a fireball but 50 mpg was a considerable compensation.

So, better than the Prius then? And I bet you didn't pay more for it than
2 months worth of depreciation for the P... I'm sure we live in a land of
make believe reference the 'green' hype surrounding these new vehicles.

We've had debates about this sort of thing on uk.rec.cars.maintenance a
couple of times and my opinion FWIW is that much of the 'progress' in cars
over say the last 25 years has been retrograde. I have no doubt that
handling, ergonomics, comfort, safety has generally improved but all the
added complication has added weight and cost and use of resources with no
real net improvement in fuel consumption. Owner servicing and repairing is
almost a thing of the past because no one understands what the hell any of
the bits under the bonnet do anymore.

The average hatchback now weighs almost 50% more than its 1980 predecessor
and the one thing physics tells us is you can't shift extra mass from A to B
without incurring a fuel penalty. As a result the most economical cars I've
owned have been old, light ones with simple carburetors. The Polo mentioned
above which averaged 40 mpg although I could get 50 mpg if I wanted to drive
sedately and next best was a 1983 Metro even though I modified that fairly
outrageously with a 1380 engine, big valve ported head, LCB exhaust manifold
and straight through system and a rally camshaft. It had 40 bhp at the
wheels as standard and 84 bhp on the same rollers when I'd finished but it
still averaged 35 mpg over 20,000 miles despite getting the arse thrashed
off it nearly everywhere I went. My 1983 Astra GTE with a simple Bosch L
injection system averaged 31 mpg and my current 2.0 Focus with 20 years of
extra technology inside averages exactly 30.

I think modern engines are generally somewhat more economical per bhp but
all the extra weight exactly negates that.


Indeed. We use to think MG Midgets were marvellous cars.

My wifes ex-car..Fiat Punto - out performed a Midget in *every* respect.

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Huge wrote:
On 2007-07-05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Most buses can be hybrids, which is an ideal setup for their usage
with brake regen, etc. In the 1950s the Germans used flywheels in
some buses to clawback kinetic energy. Or buses can be just
electric, which some are.

Yep, older engines pollute like crazy. The secret is eliminating the
piston internal combustion engine. It can only ever be dogs ear, no
matter what they do to it.

That will be why the Prius doesn't have a internal combustion engine?

Huh?

Rhetorical question for our Prius lover.

Phew. I thought one of us was going bonkers.

You are, he already is.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-05 11:30:36 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-05 10:16:53 +0100, Roger said:

The message
from Andy Hall contains these words:

There's no such thing as the working class.

There is, but only in the sense of the sector of the population that
work for a living or have worked and now subsists on a pension. Below
them are the shirking classes. On the one hand those who get by largely
on benefits on on the other those who get by on inherited wealth. :-)

Same thing - just different benefactors

Not quite. The inherited wealth bunch have connections in corridors of
power.

Great, isn't it....


That is why the land issue is suppressed.

That's because it's a non issue.

You have been reading the Torygraph again.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Indeed. We use to think MG Midgets were marvellous cars.

My wifes ex-car..Fiat Punto - out performed a Midget in *every* respect.

Nah, what about the fun to be had trying to get the rear end to step out of
line on wet roundabouts?

Julian.

"Julian" wrote in message
...

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...



I think low tech cars are just as capable of doing that, maybe more so. I
had an old A reg 1.1 VW Polo briefly as a stop-gap car a few years .
Hardly a fireball but 50 mpg was a considerable compensation.


So, better than the Prius then? And I bet you didn't pay more for it than
2 months worth of depreciation for the P... I'm sure we live in a land of
make believe reference the 'green' hype surrounding these new vehicles.

You stop telling yourself lies.

On 2007-07-05 20:37:55 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


That is why the land issue is suppressed.

That's because it's a non issue.

You have been reading the Torygraph again.

Actually no. I don't buy any newspapers. It's still a non-issue, though.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-05 20:37:55 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


That is why the land issue is suppressed.

That's because it's a non issue.

You have been reading the Torygraph again.

Actually no. I don't buy any newspapers.

Do not tell porkies.

It's still a non-issue, though.

You simple people like that would be the case.

Julian wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Indeed. We use to think MG Midgets were marvellous cars.

My wifes ex-car..Fiat Punto - out performed a Midget in *every* respect.

Nah, what about the fun to be had trying to get the rear end to step out of
line on wet roundabouts?

What do you mean *trying*..

Actually that punto was the first FWD car since a mini that really
steered on the throttle.

Sadly I am getting too old for all that..
Julian.

On 2007-07-05 21:13:34 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-05 20:37:55 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


That is why the land issue is suppressed.

That's because it's a non issue.

You have been reading the Torygraph again.

Actually no. I don't buy any newspapers.

Do not tell porkies.

It's true. Sometimes people give them to me - e.g. on aircraft - but
that's it,


It's still a non-issue, though.

You simple people like that would be the case.

Quite.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
There's no such thing as the working class.

Been down the local sink estate? Not many of them go to Eton.

Or work.

Or have class.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-05 21:13:34 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

It's still a non-issue, though.


You simple people like that would be the case.

Quite.


QED.

A sentence without any discernible verb.

Or punctuation.

What DOES he mean?

Let's see..


You! Simple people like that would be the case. Hmm. Not much sense there.

You simple people! Like that *would* be the case..

Thats almost meaningful..

You simple people like that, would be the case.

That's almost grammatically correct, but means nothing without context..
and the available context bears no relation to the sentence.

I think I give up at this point. It's just vain mutterings isn't it?

On 2007-07-05 22:30:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-05 21:13:34 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

It's still a non-issue, though.


You simple people like that would be the case.

Quite.


QED.

A sentence without any discernible verb.

Or punctuation.

What DOES he mean?

Let's see..


You! Simple people like that would be the case. Hmm. Not much sense there.

You simple people! Like that *would* be the case..

Thats almost meaningful..

You simple people like that, would be the case.

That's almost grammatically correct, but means nothing without
context.. and the available context bears no relation to the sentence.

I think I give up at this point. It's just vain mutterings isn't it?

I fear so.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-05 21:13:34 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

It's still a non-issue, though.


You simple people like that would be the case.

Quite.


QED.

A sentence

You are clearly mad.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

I fear so.

Matt, what do you fear.

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...

We've had debates about this sort of thing on uk.rec.cars.maintenance a
couple of times and my opinion FWIW is that much of the 'progress' in cars
over say the last 25 years has been retrograde. I have no doubt that
handling, ergonomics, comfort, safety has generally improved but all the
added complication has added weight and cost and use of resources with no
real net improvement in fuel consumption. Owner servicing and repairing is
almost a thing of the past because no one understands what the hell any of
the bits under the bonnet do anymore.

Neither do the dealers.

Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...

We've had debates about this sort of thing on uk.rec.cars.maintenance
a couple of times and my opinion FWIW is that much of the 'progress'
in cars over say the last 25 years has been retrograde. I have no
doubt that handling, ergonomics, comfort, safety has generally
improved but all the added complication has added weight and cost and
use of resources with no real net improvement in fuel consumption.
Owner servicing and repairing is almost a thing of the past because no
one understands what the hell any of the bits under the bonnet do
anymore.


Neither do the dealers.


So that makes the Prius a bag of **** that does not come up to the
salesmans speel?

Dave

Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

I fear so.


Matt, what do you fear.

Matt's real name is Andy.

Dave

Doctor Drivel wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Andy Hall wrote:

On 2007-07-05 21:13:34 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

It's still a non-issue, though.



You simple people like that would be the case.


Quite.


QED.

A sentence


You are clearly mad.

Not as clearly as you are.

Apologies to those that have mister bean in your kill file.

Dave

"Julian" wrote in message
...

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...



I think low tech cars are just as capable of doing that, maybe more so. I
had an old A reg 1.1 VW Polo briefly as a stop-gap car a few years .
Hardly a fireball but 50 mpg was a considerable compensation.


So, better than the Prius then? And I bet you didn't pay more for it than
2 months worth of depreciation for the P... I'm sure we live in a land of
make believe reference the 'green' hype surrounding these new vehicles.

I didn't even pay anything for it. It was a 20 year old Polo that a friend
had and although still totally rust free probably only worth a couple of
hundred quid so it sort of floated around as a handy spare car not worth
selling. He gave it to me when my 12 year old Fester XR2i turned out at MOT
time to have a floorpan resembling a colander more than a floorpan and I
needed wheels in a hurry. I used it for a few months until a nice 2.0 Mondeo
Ghia came along for a grand and then gave it back as someone else he knew
now wanted something small and reliable for his teenage daughter. It'll no
doubt still be pottering along somewhere in another 10 or even 20 years,
still rust free and still giving 50 mpg and being passed from person to
person FOC wherever it's needed. Actually the only thing on those old Polos
that ever does rust is the inside of the petrol tank if you don't use them
for a few months hence my fuel filter woes.

In terms of the environment I can't imagine a more effective or efficient
transportation device. Zero depreciation, zero use of new raw materials,
good economy and simple to fix in the unlikely event anything does break
which again on those old Polos it never does. FWIW, once I'd actually fixed
the conking out problem and could drive it for more than 5 miles at a time
my last three tanks of fuel gave me 50.1, 42.3 and 50.6 mpg. The average was
dragged down badly by the previous three tanks of intermittent use to 40 mpg
overall but high 40s would have been more representative. Even low 50s if
your mileage didn't include lots of very short runs with a stone cold engine
like mine does. Plus I caned it of course as it was dreadfully slow compared
to anything I'd had before.

Of course you couldn't build anything remotely similar today. By the time
you've fitted airbags, ABS, a cat and a complicated fuel injection system to
make that work, central locking, electric windows, modern standards of crash
protection you end up with a car that weighs 300 kg more and then needs a
diesel engine to give the same economy as a petrol engine did 20 years
previously.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You simple people like that would be the case.

Isn't it a bit early to be ****ed?

--
*Why is the third hand on the watch called a second hand?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2007-07-06 00:34:27 +0100, Dave said:

Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

I fear so.


Matt, what do you fear.

Matt's real name is Andy.

Dave

Best left. He's in an advanced state of confusion and there comes a
point with them when it's best not to make that worse.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...

We've had debates about this sort of thing on uk.rec.cars.maintenance a
couple of times and my opinion FWIW is that much of the 'progress' in
cars over say the last 25 years has been retrograde. I have no doubt
that handling, ergonomics, comfort, safety has generally improved but
all the added complication has added weight and cost and use of
resources with no real net improvement in fuel consumption. Owner
servicing and repairing is almost a thing of the past because no one
understands what the hell any of the bits under the bonnet do anymore.


Neither do the dealers.

So that makes the Prius a bag of **** that does not come up to the
salesmans speel?

You have a vivid imagination. Over a million of these cars proves they are
the business.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

I fear so.


Matt, what do you fear.

Matt's real name is Andy.

Not really, it is Lord Hall.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Andy Hall wrote:

On 2007-07-05 21:13:34 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

It's still a non-issue, though.



You simple people like that would be the case.


Quite.


QED.

A sentence


You are clearly mad.

Not

Another plantpot.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You simple people like that would be the case.

Isn't it a bit early to be ****ed?

I wonder what time in the morning he is ****ed at. Worthless troll usually
are ****ed.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You have a vivid imagination. Over a million of these cars proves they
are the business.

A poor business. Every one sold at a loss to Toyota. Despite the high
price for a mediocre car.

--
*When you've seen one shopping centre you've seen a mall*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You simple people like that would be the case.

Isn't it a bit early to be ****ed?

I wonder what time in the morning he is ****ed at. Worthless troll
usually are ****ed.

Your hangover hasn't improved your grammar, then?

--
*Failure is not an option. It's bundled with your software.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

You are clearly mad.

Not

Another plantpot.

I suspect he was referring to himself in the second person.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You have a vivid imagination. Over a million of these cars proves they
are the business.

A

Please eff off as you are a worthless idiot troll.

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...

Of course you couldn't build anything remotely similar today. By the time
you've fitted airbags, ABS, a cat and a complicated fuel injection system
to make that work, central locking, electric windows, modern standards of
crash protection you end up with a car that weighs 300 kg more and then
needs a diesel engine to give the same economy as a petrol engine did 20
years previously.


Are you sure about that?
Modern cars have less steel in them so they may well weigh less for the same
trim level.
Of course there is a lot more sound proofing in most modern cars and that
does add to the weight as do bigger tyres.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You simple people like that would be the case.

Isn't it a bit early to be ****ed?

I wonder what time in the morning he is ****ed at. Worthless troll
usually are ****ed.

Your

Please eff off as you are worthless idiot troll.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

You have a vivid imagination. Over a million of these cars proves they are
the business.

There are plenty of cars about that have sold a million that are still cr@p.

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 245.131...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

You are clearly mad.

Not

Another plantpot.

I suspect

....another idiot troll....

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...

Of course you couldn't build anything remotely similar today. By the time
you've fitted airbags, ABS, a cat and a complicated fuel injection system
to make that work, central locking, electric windows, modern standards of
crash protection you end up with a car that weighs 300 kg more and then
needs a diesel engine to give the same economy as a petrol engine did 20
years previously.


Are you sure about that?
Modern cars have less steel in them so they may well weigh less for the
same trim level.
Of course there is a lot more sound proofing in most modern cars and that
does add to the weight as do bigger tyres.

Having the engine transmission a naturally quiet unit (electric for e.g.)
soundproofing is not required, although thermal insulation maybe to reduce
the electric heater needs, if all EV of course.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

You have a vivid imagination. Over a million of these cars proves they
are the business.

There are plenty of cars about that have sold a million that are still
cr@p.

The Prius is not one of them. It is a big success and they are building
more plant to make them. And another improved version on the way. As soon as
a model is built the new one is in R&D at Toyota. A new Avensis is on the
way too. Toyota pride themselves in the quietness of their cars - a big
selling point of the Avensis.

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

Indeed. We use to think MG Midgets were marvellous cars.

That surely would depend where in your car sequence they came. :-) Both
of mine came after better cars. The second was a stop gap between a
Lotus Elan Sprint and a Fiat X 1-9. They all had one thing in common - a
rust problem - but if my memory is to be trusted of the 3 only the Lotus
would be able to do much more than hold its own against the typical
modern shopping trolley most of which had at least comparable
acceleration times to the Fiat and were much better than the Spridget.

My wifes ex-car..Fiat Punto - out performed a Midget in *every* respect.

So will almost any modern car if you accept the limitations of front
wheel drive.

FWIW Donald Healey used to say you needed a power to weight ratio of 100
bhp per ton (gave 0 - 60 times in the order of 10 seconds) for a proper
sports car. The Spridget like most of the Healeys before the A/H 3000
(including the 100/4), failed in that respect.

--
Roger Chapman

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Are you sure about that? Modern cars have less steel in them so they
may well weigh less for the same trim level. Of course there is a lot
more sound proofing in most modern cars and that does add to the
weight as do bigger tyres.

Having the engine transmission a naturally quiet unit (electric for
e.g.) soundproofing is not required, although thermal insulation maybe
to reduce the electric heater needs, if all EV of course.

Much of the noise in a modern car is caused by the tyre/road combination.
And the road noise in the Prius is much higher than the class norm. That
you don't know this proves yet again you've never driven one. The engine
noise is also unpleasant when that engine is working hard - as it has to
on the open road.

--
*If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is he homeless or naked?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.