Hi.

I'm making a new thread because the other one was getting pushed down
the list and lost in the background, and it has raised some new
questions for me.

I have now decided to zone; 2 zones, 1 upstairs and one down. Many
thanks to the posters who have given advice. The house is too small
and tight to put more pipework in than this. Now my remaining
questions are...

1. Can I use a common return? (There was an answer in the previous
thread but it made no sense to me.) If zone 1 is operating and zone 2
isn't, can there be a problem with using common returns?

2. Can you reccomend a RELIABLE valve to use for just two zones?

3. What about 'primary' rooms and rads without TRV's? As I understand
it, the rad in the primary room (the room with the controls in, yes?
Thats the open plan lounge in my house) should have no TRV. Do I need
a primary room in each zone? What if the controls are in the upstairs
hall which has no rad?

4. Websites? General CH design as well as zoneing.

Again, thanks. It's help from people like you that makes my home
better!

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mike Barnard wrote:

Hi.

I'm making a new thread because the other one was getting pushed down
the list and lost in the background, and it has raised some new
questions for me.

I have now decided to zone; 2 zones, 1 upstairs and one down. Many
thanks to the posters who have given advice. The house is too small
and tight to put more pipework in than this. Now my remaining
questions are...

1. Can I use a common return? (There was an answer in the previous
thread but it made no sense to me.) If zone 1 is operating and zone 2
isn't, can there be a problem with using common returns?

It's good practice to combine the returns from all the rads in each zone
before combining the two composite returns. Otherwise, there's a risk of
reverse circulation through the zone which is supposed to be off.

2. Can you reccomend a RELIABLE valve to use for just two zones?

Is there also a HW zone (although ISTR that it's a combi boiler, in which
case there won't be)? In any case, go for an S-Plan solution, with a
separate 2-port valve for each zone rather than trying to do it with a
single 3-port valve. Any of the well-known makes (Honeywell, Danfoss,
Drayton, etc.) should be ok. Make sure you get ones with secondary contacts
which close when the valve opens - which you will need for switching the
boiler on whenever either or boths zones call for heat.

3. What about 'primary' rooms and rads without TRV's? As I understand
it, the rad in the primary room (the room with the controls in, yes?
Thats the open plan lounge in my house) should have no TRV. Do I need
a primary room in each zone? What if the controls are in the upstairs
hall which has no rad?

You need a room thermostat (preferably programmable if you want to heat the
2 zones at different times) in each zone. Each thermostat controls its
respective zone valve which, in turn, controls the boiler and pump. The
radiator which heats the space whose temperature is sensed by each
thermostat should *not* have a TRV - but should be fitted with two
lockshield valves so that it can never be turned off. If a zone's thermostat
is not very near to a radiator, it must at least be somewhere where the
temperature is *influenced* by that zone - otherwise the control system
won't work.

4. Websites? General CH design as well as zoneing.

You could do a lot worse than starting with the heating section of the DIY
FAQ at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/he...ngsystems.html


--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

"Mike Barnard" wrote


2. Can you reccomend a RELIABLE valve to use for just two zones?

The honeywell 4043H is as good as any.
Check out http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/applicat.htm and click on
the "Yes" next to S plan documentation.
Unfortunately they still haven't created guide for S Plan +.
Agree with other posters about commoning up returns.
The plumbers who recently dual-zoned my system commoned all rads onto their
respective returns, then brought all three return mains (2 heating zones and
one hot water) together at a common point.
(The DIY bit was that I specified the system with help from this group and
also replaced most rads prior to the upgrade)

Phil

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:56:20 +0100 Mike Barnard wrote :
1. Can I use a common return? (There was an answer in the
previous thread but it made no sense to me.) If zone 1 is
operating and zone 2 isn't, can there be a problem with using
common returns?

To stop the possibility of reverse circulation you need to bring all
the zone 1 returns together before linking to the common return, do.
zone 2. If (say) the return from zone 2 passes across two different
returns from zone 1 there will be a pressure difference between these
points and a portion of the flow will go up one return, through the
rads, along the flow (in the reverse direction) to the second rad and
back along its return.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:56:20 +0100, Mike Barnard wrote:

4. Websites? General CH design as well as zoneing.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Heating_Design

(if it doesn't answer your questions please let me know how it could be
improved!)


--
John Stumbles

Women always generalise

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:56:20 +0100, Mike Barnard wrote:

4. Websites? General CH design as well as zoneing.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Heating_Design

(if it doesn't answer your questions please let me know how it could
be
improved!)


If he knew that he wouldn't be asking the question in the first place
! Duh....

In article , Mike Barnard
writes

I have now decided to zone; 2 zones, 1 upstairs and one down. Many
thanks to the posters who have given advice. The house is too small
and tight to put more pipework in than this. Now my remaining
questions are...

1. Can I use a common return? (There was an answer in the previous
thread but it made no sense to me.) If zone 1 is operating and zone 2
isn't, can there be a problem with using common returns?

If you see an answer that you don't understand then the original thread is
the place to query it rather than starting a new thread.

2. Can you reccomend a RELIABLE valve to use for just two zones?

Honeywell 2 port valves (22mm) as they can be obtained at reasonable
cost from discount outlets and replacement parts are readily available in
the event of failure. They can still fail so don't bury them behind nailed
down floorboards.

3. What about 'primary' rooms and rads without TRV's? As I understand
it, the rad in the primary room (the room with the controls in, yes?
Thats the open plan lounge in my house) should have no TRV. Do I need
a primary room in each zone?
Yes

What if the controls are in the upstairs
hall which has no rad?

Controlling upstairs rads from a stat in the hall where there is no rad and
where heat flow could be restricted by closed doors would be a mistake, if
you chose not to split the upstairs then you need the stat to be placed on
the cold side (bed)room and the TRV on the warm side (bed)room.

The general rule is that that the (global) control should be in the slowest
room (area) to heat up and the fastest room (area) to cool down, in that
way the secondary areas should be neither too hot nor too cold.

Don't worry if you have difficulty understanding these concepts as few CH
technicians will have a better grasp.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:17:55 +0100, "Roger Mills"
wrote:

2. Can you reccomend a RELIABLE valve to use for just two zones?

Is there also a HW zone (although ISTR that it's a combi boiler, in which

No, its a combi and I have no HW tank. Saved me the space the
cupboard was taking.

case there won't be)? In any case, go for an S-Plan solution, with a
separate 2-port valve for each zone rather than trying to do it with a
single 3-port valve. Any of the well-known makes (Honeywell, Danfoss,

OK, googleing for S plan now sir!

Drayton, etc.) should be ok. Make sure you get ones with secondary contacts
which close when the valve opens - which you will need for switching the
boiler on whenever either or boths zones call for heat.

OK.

3. What about 'primary' rooms and rads without TRV's? As I understand
it, the rad in the primary room (the room with the controls in, yes?
Thats the open plan lounge in my house) should have no TRV. Do I need
a primary room in each zone? What if the controls are in the upstairs
hall which has no rad?

You need a room thermostat (preferably programmable if you want to heat the
2 zones at different times) in each zone. Each thermostat controls its
respective zone valve which, in turn, controls the boiler and pump. The
radiator which heats the space whose temperature is sensed by each
thermostat should *not* have a TRV - but should be fitted with two
lockshield valves so that it can never be turned off. If a zone's thermostat
is not very near to a radiator, it must at least be somewhere where the
temperature is *influenced* by that zone - otherwise the control system
won't work.

So, yes, I need a primary room in each zone. Thanks.

4. Websites? General CH design as well as zoneing.

You could do a lot worse than starting with the heating section of the DIY
FAQ at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/he...ngsystems.html

Have been there, but little to be found about zoning.

Thanks for taking the time, I really apprecieate it.

Mike.

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:37:34 +0100, "TheScullster"
wrote:

2. Can you reccomend a RELIABLE valve to use for just two zones?

The honeywell 4043H is as good as any.
Check out http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/applicat.htm and click on
the "Yes" next to S plan documentation.

Will do, thanks.

Unfortunately they still haven't created guide for S Plan +.

Oh. Looks around innocently for someone to sidle up and whisper an
explanation. Er, I see.

Agree with other posters about commoning up returns.

Agreement, I like it!

The plumbers who recently dual-zoned my system commoned all rads onto their
respective returns, then brought all three return mains (2 heating zones and
one hot water) together at a common point.
(The DIY bit was that I specified the system with help from this group and
also replaced most rads prior to the upgrade)

Understood. Yes, really.

As before, thanks I really appreciieate the effort you have all given.

Mike.

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:07:54 GMT, Tony Bryer
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:56:20 +0100 Mike Barnard wrote :
1. Can I use a common return? (There was an answer in the
previous thread but it made no sense to me.) If zone 1 is
operating and zone 2 isn't, can there be a problem with using
common returns?

To stop the possibility of reverse circulation you need to bring all
the zone 1 returns together before linking to the common return, do.
zone 2. If (say) the return from zone 2 passes across two different
returns from zone 1 there will be a pressure difference between these
points and a portion of the flow will go up one return, through the
rads, along the flow (in the reverse direction) to the second rad and
back along its return.

Got it, thanks. Really apprecieated.

Mike.

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:12:39 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:56:20 +0100, Mike Barnard wrote:

4. Websites? General CH design as well as zoneing.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Heating_Design

(if it doesn't answer your questions please let me know how it could be
improved!)

Looks neat. Haven't had the time to look at it in depth, but thats a
job for the weekend.

Many thanks.

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:23:10 +0100, ":Jerry:"
wrote:


"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:56:20 +0100, Mike Barnard wrote:

4. Websites? General CH design as well as zoneing.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Heating_Design

(if it doesn't answer your questions please let me know how it could
be
improved!)


If he knew that he wouldn't be asking the question in the first place
! Duh....


I'm a fair judge of screen colours. Sometimes.

Mike.

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:56:20 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

I have now decided to zone; 2 zones, 1 upstairs and one down. Many

Been looking at my tight layout. I have NO idea where I'm going to
put the valves.

No, there's no airing cupboard.
The walls in and around the boiler are tight with 'stuff'.
The bedrooms are full of fitted units.

Anyone everput then in the ceiling void with a small trapdoor for
access? It's about all thats left.

Mike.

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:37:34 +0100, "TheScullster"
wrote:


"Mike Barnard" wrote


2. Can you reccomend a RELIABLE valve to use for just two zones?

The honeywell 4043H is as good as any.
Check out http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/applicat.htm and click on
the "Yes" next to S plan documentation.

"For details on Zoning, see
Practical Application Guide
No. 117"

"117 Zoning. Soon"

Heh, just my luck.

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:20:16 +0100, Mike Barnard wrote:

Anyone everput then in the ceiling void with a small trapdoor for
access? It's about all thats left.

I've had to replace one there :-(

--
John Stumbles

I've got nothing against racists - I just wouldn't want my daughter to marry one

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:04:15 GMT, fred wrote:

In article , Mike Barnard
writes

I have now decided to zone; 2 zones, 1 upstairs and one down. Many
thanks to the posters who have given advice. The house is too small
and tight to put more pipework in than this. Now my remaining
questions are...

1. Can I use a common return? (There was an answer in the previous
thread but it made no sense to me.) If zone 1 is operating and zone 2
isn't, can there be a problem with using common returns?

If you see an answer that you don't understand then the original thread is
the place to query it rather than starting a new thread.

Touche.

2. Can you reccomend a RELIABLE valve to use for just two zones?

Honeywell 2 port valves (22mm) as they can be obtained at reasonable
cost from discount outlets and replacement parts are readily available in
the event of failure. They can still fail so don't bury them behind nailed
down floorboards.

Noted, thanks.

3. What about 'primary' rooms and rads without TRV's? As I understand
it, the rad in the primary room (the room with the controls in, yes?
Thats the open plan lounge in my house) should have no TRV. Do I need
a primary room in each zone?
Yes

Also.

What if the controls are in the upstairs
hall which has no rad?

Controlling upstairs rads from a stat in the hall where there is no rad and
where heat flow could be restricted by closed doors would be a mistake, if
you chose not to split the upstairs then you need the stat to be placed on
the cold side (bed)room and the TRV on the warm side (bed)room.

Noted.

The general rule is that that the (global) control should be in the slowest
room (area) to heat up and the fastest room (area) to cool down, in that
way the secondary areas should be neither too hot nor too cold.

Now, these are the sort of rules that never seem to make it into
websites. Massively important bit of info. Heh, maybe it should go
into the DIY Wiki (if it's not already) mentioned above.

Don't worry if you have difficulty understanding these concepts as few CH
technicians will have a better grasp.

Understanding is OK, it's just the working it out to start with. So I
could use either the bathroom or bedroom 2 as the primary room as
they're both north facing and they are very cold rooms.

Bathroom:
Gets visited most often.
Gets wet morning and night.

Bedroom:
5yo Sons room.
Out of use 95% of day.

I presume part P precludes the controls from being bathroom based.
Shame.

Thanks.

Mike.

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 20:20:16 +0100, Mike Barnard
mused:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:56:20 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

I have now decided to zone; 2 zones, 1 upstairs and one down. Many

Been looking at my tight layout. I have NO idea where I'm going to
put the valves.

No, there's no airing cupboard.
The walls in and around the boiler are tight with 'stuff'.
The bedrooms are full of fitted units.

Anyone everput then in the ceiling void with a small trapdoor for
access? It's about all thats left.

Loads of people have, but i'd usually call it under the floor rather
than above the ceiling.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

In article ,
Mike Barnard writes:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:56:20 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote:

I have now decided to zone; 2 zones, 1 upstairs and one down. Many

Been looking at my tight layout. I have NO idea where I'm going to
put the valves.

No, there's no airing cupboard.
The walls in and around the boiler are tight with 'stuff'.
The bedrooms are full of fitted units.

Anyone everput then in the ceiling void with a small trapdoor for
access? It's about all thats left.

I've put one on top of a kitchen cupboard, which is not visible
unless you are 7' tall. I've seen them installed in kitchen
cupbards too (more often, the cupboard is fitted around the
plumbing, and can be completely removed for servicing).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article , Mike Barnard
writes
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:04:15 GMT, fred wrote:

Sorry for the delayed reply.

Understanding is OK, it's just the working it out to start with. So I
could use either the bathroom or bedroom 2 as the primary room as
they're both north facing and they are very cold rooms.

Bathroom:
Gets visited most often.
Gets wet morning and night.

Bedroom:
5yo Sons room.
Out of use 95% of day.

In this case I'd probably run the bathroom off the live backbone so that it
comes on whenever the boiler fires ie any heating or hot water demand.
Use a TRV to limit the temperature and turn it off completely in summer as
required. Although it doesn't appear to make sense to control from your
young son's room, if that is the cold side of the house then it is probably
the way to go (for the upstairs)

I presume part P precludes the controls from being bathroom based.
Shame.

Even if it doesn't, it's unlikely they'd last long in a humid environment. The
ones I have looked at preclude that kind of placement.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 14:11:43 GMT, fred wrote:

Sorry for the delayed reply.

Heh, no one waiting. Just grateful for any help.

Understanding is OK, it's just the working it out to start with. So I
could use either the bathroom or bedroom 2 as the primary room as
they're both north facing and they are very cold rooms.

Bathroom:
Gets visited most often.
Gets wet morning and night.

Bedroom:
5yo Sons room.
Out of use 95% of day.

In this case I'd probably run the bathroom off the live backbone so that it
comes on whenever the boiler fires ie any heating or hot water demand.
Use a TRV to limit the temperature and turn it off completely in summer as
required.

What a splendiferous idea. I think I can mix that into the plan.

Although it doesn't appear to make sense to control from your
young son's room, if that is the cold side of the house then it is probably
the way to go (for the upstairs)

Why not? As you say, its the coldest bit. Also it's over the kitchen
so closer to the boiler for cable running.

I presume part P precludes the controls from being bathroom based.
Shame.

Even if it doesn't, it's unlikely they'd last long in a humid environment. The
ones I have looked at preclude that kind of placement.

And the varying tempratures switching it off and on at odd times I
suppose. Shower on and windows closed or loo used and window open!

Thanks for the ideas.

In article , Mike Barnard
writes
On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 14:11:43 GMT, fred wrote:

In this case I'd probably run the bathroom off the live backbone so that it
comes on whenever the boiler fires ie any heating or hot water demand.
Use a TRV to limit the temperature and turn it off completely in summer as
required.

What a splendiferous idea. I think I can mix that into the plan.

Although it doesn't appear to make sense to control from your
young son's room, if that is the cold side of the house then it is probably
the way to go (for the upstairs)

Why not? As you say, its the coldest bit. Also it's over the kitchen
so closer to the boiler for cable running.

1. 'cos it's a room not in use for 95% of the day.

2. 'cos (parental pride excepted) he'll be an ungrateful little **** and not
thank you for it :-)

3. At that age (or any other for that matter) he'll probably dick around with
the settings.

4. The next would be owner will not see the logic of the situation and
expect the control to be in the master bedroom.

That said it does seem to be the best on offer.

I presume part P precludes the controls from being bathroom based.
Shame.

Even if it doesn't, it's unlikely they'd last long in a humid environment. The
ones I have looked at preclude that kind of placement.

And the varying tempratures switching it off and on at odd times I
suppose. Shower on and windows closed or loo used and window open!

Good point.

Thanks for the ideas.
Welcome, let us know how it goes.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla