Bit of a long shot this one, but...

I'm looking at designing a spiral staircase (for a new-build). For various
reasons it needs to be possible to separate the floors the staircase links,
so I'm thinking of having a trapdoor that fits into the gap in the ceiling
formed by the staircase. The door would be hinged and counterweighted, on a
pulley controlled by a handle somewhere, tight fitting and fairly heavy (for
sound and thermal insulation), with a bolt to lock it. It wouldn't be moved
very often (once a week maybe), otherwise staying fixed open or fixed closed.

Obviously such a thing could be built from scratch, but does anything like
this already exist? Is there anyone who specialises in the building of
trapdoors or similar, who'd be able to give me advice on whether this is a
silly idea or not, or suppliers of components?

Thanks
Theo

Often spiral stairs have a near full circle handrail on the upper
floor, with a gap where
you step onto the top landing on the spiral.

How would the trapdoor work around the handrail?

wrote:
Often spiral stairs have a near full circle handrail on the upper
floor, with a gap where
you step onto the top landing on the spiral.

I'm not sure I quite follow you... this circle is to prevent people falling
down the stairs which aren't enclosed?

How would the trapdoor work around the handrail?

Do you mean the door is likely to obstruct the handrail when open? I
suppose something could be fitted to the bottom of the door to function as a
handrail when the door is open, assuming it didn't conflict with anything in
the closed position. The door might have to lock open so that it's strong
enough to support someone pulling on this rail.

You raise a good question though... how big does the door need to be to get
enough headroom when ascending? That could make things tricky.

Theo

On 21 Apr 2007 23:31:59 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos
wrote:

wrote:
Often spiral stairs have a near full circle handrail on the upper
floor, with a gap where
you step onto the top landing on the spiral.

I'm not sure I quite follow you... this circle is to prevent people falling
down the stairs which aren't enclosed?

How would the trapdoor work around the handrail?

Do you mean the door is likely to obstruct the handrail when open? I
suppose something could be fitted to the bottom of the door to function as a
handrail when the door is open, assuming it didn't conflict with anything in
the closed position. The door might have to lock open so that it's strong
enough to support someone pulling on this rail.

You raise a good question though... how big does the door need to be to get
enough headroom when ascending? That could make things tricky.

Any sort of a door near the bottom of a staircase could spell a real
disaster (cf Victoria Hall 1883). Seriously.

--
Frank Erskine

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:18:29 +0100, Theo Markettos wrote:

Bit of a long shot this one, but...

I'm looking at designing a spiral staircase (for a new-build). For
various reasons it needs to be possible to separate the floors the
staircase links, so I'm thinking of having a trapdoor that fits into the
gap in the ceiling formed by the staircase. The door would be hinged and
counterweighted, on a pulley controlled by a handle somewhere, tight
fitting and fairly heavy (for sound and thermal insulation), with a bolt
to lock it. It wouldn't be moved very often (once a week maybe),
otherwise staying fixed open or fixed closed.

Obviously such a thing could be built from scratch, but does anything like
this already exist? Is there anyone who specialises in the building of
trapdoors or similar, who'd be able to give me advice on whether this is a
silly idea or not, or suppliers of components?

Thanks
Theo

===============================
Since you're open to the idea of using ropes and pulleys it might be
easier to have a detached trap door something like a manhole cover. Such a
trap door would only need a single centrally placed hook / rope to lift
it vertically and so would not interfere with a surrounding handrail. It
could be operated by an off-the-shelf electric hoist. Look here for hoists:

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/se...r/hoist/page/1

A similar arrangement is sometimes used (I think) on blast furnaces but
you may not need a 6" thick steel plate for your trap door.

Cic.

--
================================
Testing UBUNTU Linux
Windows shown the door
================================

Would this spiral staircase be the sole means of escape from an upper
floor?

In message , Theo Markettos
writes
I'm not sure I quite follow you... this circle is to prevent people falling
down the stairs which aren't enclosed?

How would the trapdoor work around the handrail?

Do you mean the door is likely to obstruct the handrail when open? I


How about a sliding door? As it is a new build could you design in
something to slide across the gap from under the upstairs floor?
--
Bill

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
Bit of a long shot this one, but...

I'm looking at designing a spiral staircase (for a new-build). For
various
reasons it needs to be possible to separate the floors the staircase
links,
so I'm thinking of having a trapdoor that fits into the gap in the ceiling
formed by the staircase. The door would be hinged and counterweighted, on
a
pulley controlled by a handle somewhere, tight fitting and fairly heavy
(for
sound and thermal insulation), with a bolt to lock it. It wouldn't be
moved
very often (once a week maybe), otherwise staying fixed open or fixed
closed.

Obviously such a thing could be built from scratch, but does anything like
this already exist? Is there anyone who specialises in the building of
trapdoors or similar, who'd be able to give me advice on whether this is a
silly idea or not, or suppliers of components?

I staying in a B&B last year that had something similar. Instead of a spiral
staircase, the stairs were straight, but they hinged at the top end. When
up, the underside of the staircase formed the part of the trapdoor you could
see from the ceiling below. When down, there was an entire staircase.

The family slept upstairs during the summer when guests were around, but
during the off-season months, the staircase was left up, with half the house
effectively sealed off until it was needed.

I know that is not exactly what you are looking for, but if this kind of
system is common enough, it may be worthwhile looking into, in case it gives
you any ideas.

-- JJ

Theo Markettos wrote:

I'm looking at designing a spiral staircase (for a new-build). For various
reasons it needs to be possible to separate the floors the staircase links,
so I'm thinking of having a trapdoor that fits into the gap in the ceiling
formed by the staircase. The door would be hinged and counterweighted, on a
pulley controlled by a handle somewhere, tight fitting and fairly heavy (for
sound and thermal insulation), with a bolt to lock it. It wouldn't be moved
very often (once a week maybe), otherwise staying fixed open or fixed closed.

As more than one other poster has hinted, there are big implications for
building regs here.... what are the "various reasons" the floors need to
be separated - can you give more information about the project as a
whole? What accomodation is on these two floors, what access
arrangements and means of escapes etc are there, etc etc?

David

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:51:59 +0000, Lobster wrote:

Theo Markettos wrote:

I'm looking at designing a spiral staircase (for a new-build). For
various reasons it needs to be possible to separate the floors the
staircase links, so I'm thinking of having a trapdoor that fits into the
gap in the ceiling formed by the staircase. The door would be hinged
and counterweighted, on a pulley controlled by a handle somewhere, tight
fitting and fairly heavy (for sound and thermal insulation), with a bolt
to lock it. It wouldn't be moved very often (once a week maybe),
otherwise staying fixed open or fixed closed.

As more than one other poster has hinted, there are big implications for
building regs here.... what are the "various reasons" the floors need to
be separated - can you give more information about the project as a whole?
What accomodation is on these two floors, what access arrangements and
means of escapes etc are there, etc etc?

David

================================
It's probably a cannabis factory. They're very fashionable at the moment.
Or more mundanely, a stellar observatory.

Cic.

--
================================
Testing UBUNTU Linux
Windows shown the door
================================

On 21 Apr 2007 21:18:29 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos
wrote:

Bit of a long shot this one, but...

I'm looking at designing a spiral staircase (for a new-build). For various
reasons it needs to be possible to separate the floors the staircase links,
so I'm thinking of having a trapdoor that fits into the gap in the ceiling
formed by the staircase. The door would be hinged and counterweighted, on a
pulley controlled by a handle somewhere, tight fitting and fairly heavy (for
sound and thermal insulation), with a bolt to lock it. It wouldn't be moved
very often (once a week maybe), otherwise staying fixed open or fixed closed.

Obviously such a thing could be built from scratch, but does anything like
this already exist? Is there anyone who specialises in the building of
trapdoors or similar, who'd be able to give me advice on whether this is a
silly idea or not, or suppliers of components?

The company I work for design, supplies and fits custom spirals and
I've never heard of anyone doing something like this. In a new build I
can see you having major troubles with BC getting it approved. If you
waited until you had your completion cert etc and then installed it I
suppose no-one would be the wiser but can't see you getting it through
on a new build.

I personally hink it's an avoidable accident waiting to happen. Apart
from the risk of your mechanism failing and the door braining the
operator, you have the risk of trapping some poor sod up there in the
event of a fire (other exit or no). It is different to having a door
in that at least a door might be broken down or easily swung open, a
heavy trapdoor which might have debris fallen on it is another matter
entirely. Please think again.

Lobster wrote:
As more than one other poster has hinted, there are big implications for
building regs here.... what are the "various reasons" the floors need to
be separated - can you give more information about the project as a
whole? What accomodation is on these two floors, what access
arrangements and means of escapes etc are there, etc etc?

The idea is there are two small 'flats' on top of each other and a basement,
each which is capable of being used separately. They have separate external
entrances, which would be used in the case of fire. But if a larger space
is required it's possible to connect them together to form one unit. As
space is tight this means a spiral staircase, so I'm trying to come up with
ways that the staircase can be opened or closed off depending on need. Such
a closure isn't going to be used frequently: I'd envisage once a week at the
maximum, more like once a month. Betweentimes it'd be either be locked open
or locked shut. As the two flats would be occupied by different people,
when closed there needs to be soundproofing between them.

An enclosed staircase with doors is an obvious possibility but it feels like
a lift shaft or belltower: claustrophobic. It also doesn't connect the two
living spaces very well when in use. I'm trying to come up with something
better.

As regards building regs go... it's in Greece so UK regs technically don't
apply. However anything that's a silly idea here is probably a silly idea
there so it'd be sensible to pay attention to them. (And I get annoyed with
how slack their regs are, so Doing Things Properly is definitely an
objective).

You're right, though, that careful thought is required regarding the safety
implications... even if something is intended not to be used in emergency it
quite possibly will be.

Theo

Owain wrote:
Jeff wrote:
I personally hink it's an avoidable accident waiting to happen. Apart
from the risk of your mechanism failing and the door braining the
operator, you have the risk of trapping some poor sod up there in the
event of a fire (other exit or no). It is different to having a door
in that at least a door might be broken down or easily swung open, a
heavy trapdoor which might have debris fallen on it is another matter
entirely. Please think again.

Those are good points... am thinking a bit more

I wonder if curved door(s) sliding round the circumference of the spiral
staircase would be an alternative. However, I think Building Regs would
still require a landing area at the top/bottom of the stairs, for
operating the door.

Some new trains have a rather nifty powered curved door on the toilet
compartments.

That's an interesting idea. A landing area isn't a problem. From what I
hear the train doors have difficulty with maintenance, given the beating
they take from passengers. However a flat sliding door, or a pair of
double-leaf doors might work...

Thanks
Theo

Have you considered an "alternating tread stair" :

http://loftcentre.co.uk/SpaceSavers/bergen.htm

these are very compact and can be made by any decent joiner - and
perhaps more suited to a trap door.

A "yacht hatch" type design might be suitable:

http://jp.inmagine.com/pdre019/pdre019074-photo

These use an overhead sliding hatch and and a smaller lift-out
vertical section.

The advantage is that the hatchway stands a foot or two above the
floor (deck) it opens onto, so less danger than of a gaping hole - and
it provides containment for the top of the handrails - without
interfering with the operation of the hatch.

In message , Theo Markettos
writes
Bit of a long shot this one, but...

I'm looking at designing a spiral staircase (for a new-build). For various
reasons it needs to be possible to separate the floors the staircase links,
so I'm thinking of having a trapdoor that fits into the gap in the ceiling
formed by the staircase. The door would be hinged and counterweighted, on a
pulley controlled by a handle somewhere, tight fitting and fairly heavy (for
sound and thermal insulation), with a bolt to lock it. It wouldn't be moved
very often (once a week maybe), otherwise staying fixed open or fixed closed.

Think Bond, sharpen the edges of the staircase, attach multi-horsepower
motor to the top and turn on, staircase augers down into ground opening
up a very attractive 'rustic' well, the addition of a few strategically
placed sharks with lasers and you've achieved not only your objective of
separating the floors, you've also got a nice focal point.

All silliness aside, I *have* seen this sort of thing before with the
trapdoor, I'm sure you'd find similar arrangements in old Windmills and
lighthouses but I think you'd have to build some sort of separate guard
around the top to stop people falling into your shark filled
pit^H^H^H^H^H^H down the stairs. If it's only moved every now and then,
what's up with a removable floor section that can be stored somewhere?
Thanks
Theo

--
Clint Sharp

replying to Clint Sharp, Ren wrote:
I also have this problem but it is an old house. It has the spiral staircase
leading from the kitchen to the basement. Code required we move the oil
furnace to a spot in the basement , so now all you hear is the oil furnace. I
was thinking about a trap door to cover the stairs for the purpose of keeping
some of the furnace noise out.
https://www.homeownershub.com/img/cy

On 02/02/2018 13:44, Ren wrote:
replying to Clint Sharp, Ren wrote:
I also have this problem

What problem?

This might assist you with posting to a newsgroup, albeit through a website:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855

- If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
enough text of the original to give a context.

Unusual post this as it has no link to the actual text just a picture.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Ren" m wrote in message
...
replying to Clint Sharp, Ren wrote:
I also have this problem but it is an old house. It has the spiral
staircase
leading from the kitchen to the basement. Code required we move the oil
furnace to a spot in the basement , so now all you hear is the oil
furnace. I
was thinking about a trap door to cover the stairs for the purpose of
keeping
some of the furnace noise out.
https://www.homeownershub.com/img/cy

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 19:10:17 -0000
"Brian Gaff" wrote:

Unusual post this as it has no link to the actual text just a picture.
Brian


Following the trail back, you land up at:
https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...3-.htm#1266878

which, is surprise, surprise, several years ago, 2007 in fact.

When will they ever learn.

--
Davey.