Will CORGI investigate a complaint when a new boiler is installed and TRVs
have been used on every radiator with no room stat or boiler interlock. I am
sick of seeing these installations and today a friend of mine was suckered
(*) and had TRVs installed on every rad

Adam

(*)My friend and his wife were given all the details I could get for them
about stats and interlocks (mostly from uk.d-i-y) but only she was at home
when the work was done. The plumber asked how dare she question his work and
told her that a modulating boiler with TRVs on all rads is fine. She was
quite scared by his attitude and allowed the work.

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:28:25 +0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

Will CORGI investigate a complaint when a new boiler is installed and TRVs
have been used on every radiator with no room stat or boiler interlock. I am
sick of seeing these installations and today a friend of mine was suckered
(*) and had TRVs installed on every rad

I doubt it, as it's not a gas safety issue, 'just' a Building Regs/Energy
Efficiency issue.

(*)My friend and his wife were given all the details I could get for them
about stats and interlocks (mostly from uk.d-i-y) but only she was at home
when the work was done. The plumber asked how dare she question his work and
told her that a modulating boiler with TRVs on all rads is fine. She was
quite scared by his attitude and allowed the work.

A few boilers (some Pottertons and Baxis at least) have built-in diverter
valves arranged to allow all-TRV installations. In other cases it would be
"interesting" to see what the installer has put in the various boxes of
the Benchmark certificate that they filled in (didn't they?!)

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:32:46 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:28:25 +0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

Will CORGI investigate a complaint when a new boiler is installed and TRVs
have been used on every radiator with no room stat or boiler interlock. I am
sick of seeing these installations and today a friend of mine was suckered
(*) and had TRVs installed on every rad

I doubt it, as it's not a gas safety issue, 'just' a Building Regs/Energy
Efficiency issue.

(*)My friend and his wife were given all the details I could get for them
about stats and interlocks (mostly from uk.d-i-y) but only she was at home
when the work was done. The plumber asked how dare she question his work and
told her that a modulating boiler with TRVs on all rads is fine. She was
quite scared by his attitude and allowed the work.

A few boilers (some Pottertons and Baxis at least) have built-in diverter
valves arranged to allow all-TRV installations. In other cases it would be
"interesting" to see what the installer has put in the various boxes of
the Benchmark certificate that they filled in (didn't they?!)

The inspector told me that they will investigate all complaints even ones
that are not apparently gas safety related. This is because invariably
infringements in (say) the building regs will be matched by other less
obvious corner cutting.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

ARWadsworth wrote:
Will CORGI investigate a complaint when a new boiler is installed and
TRVs have been used on every radiator with no room stat or boiler
interlock. I am sick of seeing these installations and today a friend
of mine was suckered (*) and had TRVs installed on every rad

Adam

(*)My friend and his wife were given all the details I could get for
them about stats and interlocks (mostly from uk.d-i-y) but only she
was at home when the work was done. The plumber asked how dare she
question his work and told her that a modulating boiler with TRVs on
all rads is fine. She was quite scared by his attitude and allowed
the work.

Interestingly, I had a call from a lady who has the room stat in an upstairs
bed room and TRV's on all other rads. Small terraced house so she doesn't
have a hall.

Upstairs like a sauna, downstairs freesing cold. She was told the room stat
had to go upstairs because of the TRV's.

Don't know what boiler it is.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:
Interestingly, I had a call from a lady who has the room stat in an upstairs
bed room and TRV's on all other rads. Small terraced house so she doesn't
have a hall.

Upstairs like a sauna, downstairs freesing cold. She was told the room stat
had to go upstairs because of the TRV's.

I've had dealings with 4 CORGI's over heating systems in the last
2 years, in friends houses. None of them had any real understanding
of heating systems, and absoultely no clue about the controls or
the electrics or the internal workings of the boilers. I presumed
they understood the gas side, but CORGI came and inspected one of
the installations afterwards and said they guy obviously never
measured the gas pressure as the Transco regulator was miles out,
resulting in an emergency Transco callout there and then. I
therefore presume he can't even have done a soundness test either,
since it would have been impossible to miss this.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 19 Mar, 23:10, Ed Sirett wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:32:46 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:28:25 +0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

Will CORGI investigate a complaint when a new boiler is installed and TRVs
have been used on every radiator with no room stat or boiler interlock. I am
sick of seeing these installations and today a friend of mine was suckered
(*) and had TRVs installed on every rad

I doubt it, as it's not a gas safety issue, 'just' a Building Regs/Energy
Efficiency issue.

(*)My friend and his wife were given all the details I could get for them
about stats and interlocks (mostly from uk.d-i-y) but only she was at home
when the work was done. The plumber asked how dare she question his work and
told her that a modulating boiler with TRVs on all rads is fine. She was
quite scared by his attitude and allowed the work.

A few boilers (some Pottertons and Baxis at least) have built-in diverter
valves arranged to allow all-TRV installations. In other cases it would be
"interesting" to see what the installer has put in the various boxes of
the Benchmark certificate that they filled in (didn't they?!)

The inspector told me that they will investigate all complaints even ones
that are not apparently gas safety related. This is because invariably
infringements in (say) the building regs will be matched by other less
obvious corner cutting.


Possibly even more so now that there is a a franchise tender for this
role coming up. Of course, we all know that it's a done deal, but
perhaps a letter or two to appropriate places in CORGI wouldn't go
amiss. Then if there's no response, we can be certain it's a done
deal.

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
k...
Will CORGI investigate a complaint when a new boiler is installed and TRVs
have been used on every radiator with no room stat or boiler interlock. I
am sick of seeing these installations and today a friend of mine was
suckered (*) and had TRVs installed on every rad


Is this just a boiler replacement with existing TRVs on existing rads with
no existing room stat or a new installation or something in between? Yes
its a badly spec'd system but if just a boiler change on an existing system
not sure its reasonable to expect a room stat unless that was included in
the offer. What did the installer propose, more importantly was nothing
learned from unsuccessful installers proposals?

Jim A

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:46:17 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

... CORGI came and inspected one of
the installations afterwards and said they guy obviously never
measured the gas pressure as the Transco regulator was miles out,
resulting in an emergency Transco callout there and then. I
therefore presume he can't even have done a soundness test either,
since it would have been impossible to miss this.

He could have done a tightness (as well call it :-)) test without noticing
the full pressure because you don't apply full pressure when testing the
system (see Ed's Gas Fitting FAQ). Of course he should also have checked
the working pressure. Seems a bit unfair to say the installer missed the
dodgy regulator: presumably when the meter and/or regulator was installed
it was working OK and had gone wrong since, so it could have gone bad
after the installer had done the boiler.

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:10:53 +0000, Ed Sirett wrote:

The inspector told me that they will investigate all complaints even
ones that are not apparently gas safety related. This is because
invariably infringements in (say) the building regs will be matched by
other less obvious corner cutting.

When I rang Basingstoke about a dodgy-sounding installation (flue
gases entering neighbouring living accomodation) that came up in this
group a while back they didn't want to know.

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:46:09 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

ARWadsworth wrote:
Will CORGI investigate a complaint when a new boiler is installed and
TRVs have been used on every radiator with no room stat or boiler
interlock. I am sick of seeing these installations and today a friend
of mine was suckered (*) and had TRVs installed on every rad

Adam

(*)My friend and his wife were given all the details I could get for
them about stats and interlocks (mostly from uk.d-i-y) but only she
was at home when the work was done. The plumber asked how dare she
question his work and told her that a modulating boiler with TRVs on
all rads is fine. She was quite scared by his attitude and allowed
the work.

Interestingly, I had a call from a lady who has the room stat in an upstairs
bed room and TRV's on all other rads. Small terraced house so she doesn't
have a hall.

Upstairs like a sauna, downstairs freesing cold. She was told the room stat
had to go upstairs because of the TRV's.

Don't know what boiler it is.


There is an excellent product for this, assuming that the upstairs
thermostat has a neutral as well as live and switched live (by no means a
certainty). The Horstmann wireless thermostat: the receiver unit can be
fitted in the bedroom and the sender unit can be placed on the wall or on
a side shelf elsewhere as needed until the best point is discovered.

The upstairs TRVs sound like they will all need setting to a low value.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:16:41 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:46:17 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

... CORGI came and inspected one of
the installations afterwards and said they guy obviously never
measured the gas pressure as the Transco regulator was miles out,
resulting in an emergency Transco callout there and then. I
therefore presume he can't even have done a soundness test either,
since it would have been impossible to miss this.

He could have done a tightness (as well call it :-)) test without noticing
the full pressure because you don't apply full pressure when testing the
system (see Ed's Gas Fitting FAQ). Of course he should also have checked
the working pressure. Seems a bit unfair to say the installer missed the
dodgy regulator: presumably when the meter and/or regulator was installed
it was working OK and had gone wrong since, so it could have gone bad
after the installer had done the boiler.

Whilst the guy could easily have missed the meter running pressure, the
problem would have shown up as abnormal boiler inlet pressure and I have
yet to see any boiler instructions which don't include the inlet pressure
as part of the full commissioning tests. (for some, Ideal Isar, it's the
only test they require!).




--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:20:09 +0000, Jim Alexander wrote:

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
k...
Will CORGI investigate a complaint when a new boiler is installed and TRVs
have been used on every radiator with no room stat or boiler interlock. I
am sick of seeing these installations and today a friend of mine was
suckered (*) and had TRVs installed on every rad


Is this just a boiler replacement with existing TRVs on existing rads with
no existing room stat or a new installation or something in between? Yes
its a badly spec'd system but if just a boiler change on an existing system
not sure its reasonable to expect a room stat unless that was included in
the offer. What did the installer propose, more importantly was nothing
learned from unsuccessful installers proposals?


There is no such thing as just a 'boiler replacement' unless it's being
done under warranty and the original install was before 1/Apr/5. Part L
is not just about condensing boilers. See the Boiler choice FAQ.




--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:46:17 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:
Interestingly, I had a call from a lady who has the room stat in an upstairs
bed room and TRV's on all other rads. Small terraced house so she doesn't
have a hall.

Upstairs like a sauna, downstairs freesing cold. She was told the room stat
had to go upstairs because of the TRV's.

I've had dealings with 4 CORGI's over heating systems in the last
2 years, in friends houses. None of them had any real understanding
of heating systems, and absoultely no clue about the controls or
the electrics or the internal workings of the boilers. I presumed
they understood the gas side, but CORGI came and inspected one of
the installations afterwards and said they guy obviously never
measured the gas pressure as the Transco regulator was miles out,
resulting in an emergency Transco callout there and then. I
therefore presume he can't even have done a soundness test either,
since it would have been impossible to miss this.


To be a pro you need to have ACS qualifications these are about gas safety
not about heating systems. However you also need a certified
record of supervised gas work. During this time you may or may
not have being instructed in the finer points heating system design,
installation, diagnosis & repair.

To self-certify Part L compliance you need a C&G 6083 (IIRC) which is
energy efficiency. Again some experience and knowledge is needed but
nowhere near what it takes in practice to sort out real world systems.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

In article , The
Medway Handyman writes

Interestingly, I had a call from a lady who has the room stat in an upstairs
bed room and TRV's on all other rads. Small terraced house so she doesn't
have a hall.

Upstairs like a sauna, downstairs freesing cold. She was told the room stat
had to go upstairs because of the TRV's.

Don't know what boiler it is.

It should be possible to make this work but Ed's wireless stat would be
tidier.

I bet the system isn't balanced:
a) balance it (with TRVs open).
b) set stat & TRVs to desired temps
The area with the thermostat needs to be the last to heat up and the first
to cool down:
c) if the bedroom reaches demand temp before the rest of the house is to
temp then throttle its rad to slow it down.
d) if the rest of the house cools down before the bedroom, leave the
bedroom door open a bit to let the heat leak out more quickly and get the
boiler on again.

Job done.

Not the most sophisticated of solutions but TRV control really isn't that
sophisticated.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
k...

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
k...
Will CORGI investigate a complaint when a new boiler is installed and
TRVs have been used on every radiator with no room stat or boiler
interlock. I am sick of seeing these installations and today a friend of
mine was suckered (*) and had TRVs installed on every rad


Is this just a boiler replacement with existing TRVs on existing rads with
no existing room stat or a new installation or something in between?

It is a new boiler replacing an old one and is in a new location. It was
internal with a flue through the chimney but is now on an external wall, the
existing system had no TRVs but did have a room stat. It was an S Plan and
until I get time to call and see the system I have no idea what it is now.

Yes
its a badly spec'd system but if just a boiler change on an existing
system not sure its reasonable to expect a room stat unless that was
included in the offer.

Building regs state quite clearly that a room thermostat or some sort of
boiler interlock is required when you change a boiler.

What did the installer propose, more importantly was nothing
learned from unsuccessful installers proposals?

I was not there when the plumber called. I would guess that he has lied or
is incompetent.

Adam

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
k...

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
k...

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
k...
Will CORGI investigate a complaint when a new boiler is installed and
TRVs have been used on every radiator with no room stat or boiler
interlock. I am sick of seeing these installations and today a friend of
mine was suckered (*) and had TRVs installed on every rad


Is this just a boiler replacement with existing TRVs on existing rads
with no existing room stat or a new installation or something in between?

It is a new boiler replacing an old one and is in a new location. It was
internal with a flue through the chimney but is now on an external wall,
the existing system had no TRVs but did have a room stat. It was an S Plan
and until I get time to call and see the system I have no idea what it is
now.

Yes
its a badly spec'd system but if just a boiler change on an existing
system not sure its reasonable to expect a room stat unless that was
included in the offer.

Building regs state quite clearly that a room thermostat or some sort of
boiler interlock is required when you change a boiler.

I confess when I said that, while I would never have installed a system
without a room stat, I wasn't sure just how clear the regs were on that.
Thanks to Ed for the clarification. However I stand by the words I used.
Was the offer clear on the scope? Again I ask were there any other quotes?
Were they all silent on the subject? The quote process is not just about
the lowest number. I fear this hasn't been well handled by your friend.

I was not there when the plumber called. I would guess that he has lied or
is incompetent.

Maybe, but if the system is otherwise properly installed I doubt a single
non-compliance will prove incompetence. As far as the other charge, well as
you said you weren't there and are just guessing.

My suggestion - help out your friend by connecting the room stat, with our
help if necessary.

Jim A

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
o.uk...
It is a new boiler replacing an old one and is in a new location. It was
internal with a flue through the chimney but is now on an external wall,
the existing system had no TRVs but did have a room stat. It was an S
Plan and until I get time to call and see the system I have no idea what
it is now.

Yes
its a badly spec'd system but if just a boiler change on an existing
system not sure its reasonable to expect a room stat unless that was
included in the offer.

But removing one? The new boiler is also a S plan. I called round today for
a look.

Building regs state quite clearly that a room thermostat or some sort of
boiler interlock is required when you change a boiler.

I confess when I said that, while I would never have installed a system
without a room stat, I wasn't sure just how clear the regs were on that.
Thanks to Ed for the clarification. However I stand by the words I used.
Was the offer clear on the scope? Again I ask were there any other
quotes? Were they all silent on the subject?

My friend has had the job organised by a builder who is doing lots of other
work. He did not shop around. His fault I know.

The quote process is not just about
the lowest number. I fear this hasn't been well handled by your friend.

This friend, unlike most of my friends need not worry about money.


I was not there when the plumber called. I would guess that he has lied
or is incompetent.

Maybe, but if the system is otherwise properly installed I doubt a single
non-compliance will prove incompetence. As far as the other charge, well
as you said you weren't there and are just guessing.

It has to be one of the two.

My suggestion - help out your friend by connecting the room stat, with our
help if necessary.

I do believe I can manage a room stat And yes that is what I will be
doing as well as trying to get my friend to take things further

I think my main complaint is that if a competent DIYer had done the job it
would have been done properly. It stinks that if you pay someone (I cannot
use the words a professional) to do a job that should meet building regs and
fails to do so there is no easy way to get is corrected.

It is not just my friend's installation I am angry about, I see this setup
with no roomstat on lots of houses with new boilers.

Cheers

Adam

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:32:46 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:28:25 +0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

Will CORGI investigate a complaint when a new boiler is installed and
TRVs
have been used on every radiator with no room stat or boiler interlock.
I am
sick of seeing these installations and today a friend of mine was
suckered
(*) and had TRVs installed on every rad

I doubt it, as it's not a gas safety issue, 'just' a Building Regs/Energy
Efficiency issue.

(*)My friend and his wife were given all the details I could get for
them
about stats and interlocks (mostly from uk.d-i-y) but only she was at
home
when the work was done. The plumber asked how dare she question his work
and
told her that a modulating boiler with TRVs on all rads is fine. She was
quite scared by his attitude and allowed the work.

A few boilers (some Pottertons and Baxis at least) have built-in diverter
valves arranged to allow all-TRV installations. In other cases it would
be
"interesting" to see what the installer has put in the various boxes of
the Benchmark certificate that they filled in (didn't they?!)

The inspector told me that they will investigate all complaints even ones
that are not apparently gas safety related. This is because invariably
infringements in (say) the building regs will be matched by other less
obvious corner cutting.

Could be a job for trading standards then if I can get my friend to call
them.
What is it with the English and complaining, can we only complain about the
weather and not about **** poor services and workmanship?

I have no idea how the Welsh and N.Irish make a complaint but I would never
cross a Scot. They do not mess about.

Adam