The church heating is not working today (groan) and it appears that the
pump is not circulating the water. On trying to take the cover off the
pump spindle (to check it is free) water spurts out (and it was hot
because the boilers were working!). It is a pressurised system, but is
it normal for water to come out of the pump spindle?

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

In article ,
John writes:
The church heating is not working today (groan) and it appears that the
pump is not circulating the water. On trying to take the cover off the
pump spindle (to check it is free) water spurts out (and it was hot
because the boilers were working!). It is a pressurised system, but is
it normal for water to come out of the pump spindle?

Yes, it's used to bleed air out of the pump in some cases.
Doesn't usually come out very fast. The water also forms
the rotor bearing in most designs.

A good clue for pump not working is that the pump body is
hot, but the pipework isn't. Note that pump might not be
working even if the rotor is spinning -- sometimes all the
impeller blades wear away.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
John writes:
The church heating is not working today (groan) and it appears that the
pump is not circulating the water. On trying to take the cover off the
pump spindle (to check it is free) water spurts out (and it was hot
because the boilers were working!). It is a pressurised system, but is
it normal for water to come out of the pump spindle?

Yes, it's used to bleed air out of the pump in some cases.
Doesn't usually come out very fast. The water also forms
the rotor bearing in most designs.

A good clue for pump not working is that the pump body is
hot, but the pipework isn't. Note that pump might not be
working even if the rotor is spinning -- sometimes all the
impeller blades wear away.

The water spurts out pretty fast!

The pump sounds like it may be working but most of the pipework is cold
except those parts where convection could be providing some heat.

Time for the engineer! :-(
--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

On 18 Feb 2007 12:29:09 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
John writes:
The church heating is not working today (groan) and it appears that the
pump is not circulating the water. On trying to take the cover off the
pump spindle (to check it is free) water spurts out (and it was hot
because the boilers were working!). It is a pressurised system, but is
it normal for water to come out of the pump spindle?

Yes, it's used to bleed air out of the pump in some cases.
Doesn't usually come out very fast. The water also forms
the rotor bearing in most designs.

A good clue for pump not working is that the pump body is
hot, but the pipework isn't. Note that pump might not be
working even if the rotor is spinning -- sometimes all the
impeller blades wear away.


Nice for the church to get a reply from A Gabriel...

On Feb 18, 12:39 pm, John wrote:

The water spurts out pretty fast!

The pump sounds like it may be working but most of the pipework is cold
except those parts where convection could be providing some heat.

Time for the engineer! :-(

Might it be that the pump rotor has seized? I'd switch off pump &
boiler, shut isolating valves before & after the pump. Remove cap at
the middle of the pump and spin the rotor with a small screwdriver.
Ensure it revolves freely. They are usually canned rotor/glandless
pumps and the clearance between can & rotor is small, so they often
get stuck by small bits of debris. Spinning it will often free it up.

Open valves, pump power on, check rotor is spinning, replace cap,
boiler power on.

In article . com, Aidan
writes
On Feb 18, 12:39 pm, John wrote:

The water spurts out pretty fast!

The pump sounds like it may be working but most of the pipework is cold
except those parts where convection could be providing some heat.

Time for the engineer! :-(

Might it be that the pump rotor has seized? I'd switch off pump &
boiler, shut isolating valves before & after the pump. Remove cap at
the middle of the pump and spin the rotor with a small screwdriver.
Ensure it revolves freely. They are usually canned rotor/glandless
pumps and the clearance between can & rotor is small, so they often
get stuck by small bits of debris. Spinning it will often free it up.

Open valves, pump power on, check rotor is spinning, replace cap,
boiler power on.

Minor problem is that there are no valves either side of the pump!
However, I might go down this afternoon and see whether I can isolate a
small enough part of the system to allow me to release the pressure...

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

On 18 Feb, 12:15, John wrote:
The church heating is not working today (groan) and it appears that the
pump is not circulating the water. On trying to take the cover off the
pump spindle (to check it is free) water spurts out (and it was hot
because the boilers were working!). It is a pressurised system, but is
it normal for water to come out of the pump spindle?

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

I noticed our radiators were not getting as hot downstairs as they
used to. The pump was running and was set on the minimum speed of 3
settings. I turned the pump up to max and left it running for 5
minutes before resetting to it's original setting after which the
radiators heated OK.

In article ,
blackbat writes:
On 18 Feb 2007 12:29:09 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
John writes:
The church heating is not working today (groan) and it appears that the
pump is not circulating the water. On trying to take the cover off the
pump spindle (to check it is free) water spurts out (and it was hot
because the boilers were working!). It is a pressurised system, but is
it normal for water to come out of the pump spindle?

Yes, it's used to bleed air out of the pump in some cases.
Doesn't usually come out very fast. The water also forms
the rotor bearing in most designs.

A good clue for pump not working is that the pump body is
hot, but the pipework isn't. Note that pump might not be
working even if the rotor is spinning -- sometimes all the
impeller blades wear away.

Nice for the church to get a reply from A Gabriel...

I think they really wanted a miricle...

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:25:19 +0000, John mused:

Minor problem is that there are no valves either side of the pump!
However, I might go down this afternoon and see whether I can isolate a
small enough part of the system to allow me to release the pressure...

Just spin the pump then. I've not isolated one yet before taking the
centre cap out and spinning it.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

On 2007-02-18 13:26:43 +0000, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:


Nice for the church to get a reply from A Gabriel...

I think they really wanted a miricle...

Don't you do those on Sundays? ;-)

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:25:19 +0000, John wrote:

Minor problem is that there are no valves either side of the pump!

Are you sure? The valves are usually built into the flanges that connect
the pump into the pipe work. Somewhere on each brass flange there should be
what looks like a small slotted screw. This is shaft of the ball valve in
each flange. Turn each 90 degrees using a screw driver to isolate the pump.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:11:13 +0000, Steve Firth
mused:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:25:19 +0000, John wrote:

Minor problem is that there are no valves either side of the pump!

Are you sure? The valves are usually built into the flanges that connect
the pump into the pipe work. Somewhere on each brass flange there should be
what looks like a small slotted screw. This is shaft of the ball valve in
each flange. Turn each 90 degrees using a screw driver to isolate the pump.

You can get pump flanges with no valves built in, uncommon, but not
unheard of.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

In article , Lurch
writes
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:11:13 +0000, Steve Firth
mused:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:25:19 +0000, John wrote:

Minor problem is that there are no valves either side of the pump!

Are you sure? The valves are usually built into the flanges that connect
the pump into the pipe work. Somewhere on each brass flange there should be
what looks like a small slotted screw. This is shaft of the ball valve in
each flange. Turn each 90 degrees using a screw driver to isolate the pump.

You can get pump flanges with no valves built in, uncommon, but not
unheard of.

This is a large pump which goes onto about 40mm pipe with bolted glands
- I couldn't see a valve.


--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:11:43 +0000, Lurch wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:11:13 +0000, Steve Firth
mused:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:25:19 +0000, John wrote:

Minor problem is that there are no valves either side of the pump!

Are you sure? The valves are usually built into the flanges that connect
the pump into the pipe work. Somewhere on each brass flange there should be
what looks like a small slotted screw. This is shaft of the ball valve in
each flange. Turn each 90 degrees using a screw driver to isolate the pump.

You can get pump flanges with no valves built in, uncommon, but not
unheard of.

Yes, I realise, hence "are you sure?"

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:39:54 +0000, Steve Firth
mused:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:11:43 +0000, Lurch wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:11:13 +0000, Steve Firth
mused:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:25:19 +0000, John wrote:

Minor problem is that there are no valves either side of the pump!

Are you sure? The valves are usually built into the flanges that connect
the pump into the pipe work. Somewhere on each brass flange there should be
what looks like a small slotted screw. This is shaft of the ball valve in
each flange. Turn each 90 degrees using a screw driver to isolate the pump.

You can get pump flanges with no valves built in, uncommon, but not
unheard of.

Yes, I realise, hence "are you sure?"

Just clarifying.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:21:33 +0000 someone who may be John
wrote this:-

This is a large pump which goes onto about 40mm pipe with bolted glands
- I couldn't see a valve.

Then get some fitted. Saves time and water treatment chemicals when
the pump is replaced (which is generally more frequently than the
pipework).


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 05:29:05 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:21:33 +0000 someone who may be John
wrote this:-

This is a large pump which goes onto about 40mm pipe with bolted glands
- I couldn't see a valve.

Then get some fitted.

On 40mm threaded steel pipework?!

In article , John Stumbles
writes
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 05:29:05 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:21:33 +0000 someone who may be John
wrote this:-

This is a large pump which goes onto about 40mm pipe with bolted glands
- I couldn't see a valve.

Then get some fitted.

On 40mm threaded steel pipework?!


Copper actually - but yes it would be a good idea to get some valves
fitted!

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

On 2007-02-19 18:48:08 +0000, John said:

In article , John Stumbles
writes
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 05:29:05 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:21:33 +0000 someone who may be John
wrote this:-

This is a large pump which goes onto about 40mm pipe with bolted glands
- I couldn't see a valve.

Then get some fitted.

On 40mm threaded steel pipework?!


Copper actually - but yes it would be a good idea to get some valves
fitted!

Did the engineer visit?

How about the angel Gabriel?

In article , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-02-19 18:48:08 +0000, John said:

In article , John Stumbles
writes
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 05:29:05 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:21:33 +0000 someone who may be John
wrote this:-

This is a large pump which goes onto about 40mm pipe with bolted glands
- I couldn't see a valve.

Then get some fitted.

On 40mm threaded steel pipework?!


Copper actually - but yes it would be a good idea to get some valves
fitted!

Did the engineer visit?

How about the angel Gabriel?


The engineer has yet to descend with his harp and angel wings - I will
let you know the outcome!
--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

On 2007-02-19 21:41:54 +0000, John said:

In article , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-02-19 18:48:08 +0000, John said:

In article , John Stumbles
writes
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 05:29:05 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:21:33 +0000 someone who may be John
wrote this:-

This is a large pump which goes onto about 40mm pipe with bolted glands
- I couldn't see a valve.

Then get some fitted.

On 40mm threaded steel pipework?!


Copper actually - but yes it would be a good idea to get some valves
fitted!

Did the engineer visit?

How about the angel Gabriel?


The engineer has yet to descend with his harp and angel wings - I will
let you know the outcome!

I don't know - can't get the staff these days :-)

In article , John
writes
In article , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-02-19 18:48:08 +0000, John said:

In article , John Stumbles
writes
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 05:29:05 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:21:33 +0000 someone who may be John
wrote this:-

This is a large pump which goes onto about 40mm pipe with bolted glands
- I couldn't see a valve.

Then get some fitted.

On 40mm threaded steel pipework?!


Copper actually - but yes it would be a good idea to get some valves
fitted!

Did the engineer visit?

How about the angel Gabriel?


The engineer has yet to descend with his harp and angel wings - I will
let you know the outcome!
No progress yet (although a careful look at the pipework shows that the
pump can be isolated by closing four valves (two on each side - there
are two boilers with their own isolating valves and two rings with their
valves).

Anyway, the home boiler has come out in sympathy! It is an old Potterton
80 and the fan starts but it fails to try and ignite. I have cleaned the
fan and blown through the tubes to the air pressure switch but after a
period of intermittent firing it is now sulking big time!

Is it possible for the fan to get slower (i.e. not create sufficient
draft) so that the APS will not detect sufficient change of pressure? Is
it more likely the APS has finally given up the ghost?

Ho hum shiver!

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:08:22 +0000, John wrote:

In article , John
writes
In article , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-02-19 18:48:08 +0000, John said:

In article , John Stumbles
writes
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 05:29:05 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:21:33 +0000 someone who may be John
wrote this:-

This is a large pump which goes onto about 40mm pipe with bolted glands
- I couldn't see a valve.

Then get some fitted.

On 40mm threaded steel pipework?!


Copper actually - but yes it would be a good idea to get some valves
fitted!

Did the engineer visit?

How about the angel Gabriel?


The engineer has yet to descend with his harp and angel wings - I will
let you know the outcome!
No progress yet (although a careful look at the pipework shows that the
pump can be isolated by closing four valves (two on each side - there
are two boilers with their own isolating valves and two rings with their
valves).

Anyway, the home boiler has come out in sympathy! It is an old Potterton
80 and the fan starts but it fails to try and ignite. I have cleaned the
fan and blown through the tubes to the air pressure switch but after a
period of intermittent firing it is now sulking big time!

Is it possible for the fan to get slower (i.e. not create sufficient
draft) so that the APS will not detect sufficient change of pressure? Is
it more likely the APS has finally given up the ghost?

Ho hum shiver!


Yes the bearings can get sticky and slow the fan down.
You can check the APS by blowing _very_ gently into the correct tube.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:08:22 +0000, John wrote:

Anyway, the home boiler has come out in sympathy! It is an old Potterton
80 and the fan starts but it fails to try and ignite. I have cleaned the
fan and blown through the tubes to the air pressure switch but after a
period of intermittent firing it is now sulking big time!

Is it possible for the fan to get slower (i.e. not create sufficient
draft) so that the APS will not detect sufficient change of pressure? Is
it more likely the APS has finally given up the ghost?

If the fan's running at all it's propably OK. It the pressure switch isn't
clicking over check the plastic tubes: they can split.

In article , John Stumbles
writes
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:08:22 +0000, John wrote:

Anyway, the home boiler has come out in sympathy! It is an old Potterton
80 and the fan starts but it fails to try and ignite. I have cleaned the
fan and blown through the tubes to the air pressure switch but after a
period of intermittent firing it is now sulking big time!

Is it possible for the fan to get slower (i.e. not create sufficient
draft) so that the APS will not detect sufficient change of pressure? Is
it more likely the APS has finally given up the ghost?

If the fan's running at all it's propably OK. It the pressure switch isn't
clicking over check the plastic tubes: they can split.

Just to make it more confusing, it has stopped sulking and is working
again - that is partly what makes me think it is the fan running slow.

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:33:40 +0000, me9 wrote:

On 22 Feb,
John wrote:

In article , John Stumbles
writes
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:08:22 +0000, John wrote:

Anyway, the home boiler has come out in sympathy! It is an old Potterton
80 and the fan starts but it fails to try and ignite. I have cleaned the
fan and blown through the tubes to the air pressure switch but after a
period of intermittent firing it is now sulking big time!

Is it possible for the fan to get slower (i.e. not create sufficient
draft) so that the APS will not detect sufficient change of pressure? Is
it more likely the APS has finally given up the ghost?

If the fan's running at all it's propably OK. It the pressure switch isn't
clicking over check the plastic tubes: they can split.

Just to make it more confusing, it has stopped sulking and is working
again - that is partly what makes me think it is the fan running slow.

Does the fan spin freely? if not clean and lube the bearings. That is the
usual cause of slow running fans.

That is also a _lot_ easier to say than to do. Most of the bearings are
very inaccessible within the fan unit, and any lube that can be got in
tends not to work for very long.




--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

In article , Ed Sirett
writes
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:33:40 +0000, me9 wrote:

On 22 Feb,
John wrote:

In article , John Stumbles
writes
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:08:22 +0000, John wrote:

Anyway, the home boiler has come out in sympathy! It is an old Potterton
80 and the fan starts but it fails to try and ignite. I have cleaned the
fan and blown through the tubes to the air pressure switch but after a
period of intermittent firing it is now sulking big time!

Is it possible for the fan to get slower (i.e. not create sufficient
draft) so that the APS will not detect sufficient change of pressure? Is
it more likely the APS has finally given up the ghost?

If the fan's running at all it's propably OK. It the pressure switch isn't
clicking over check the plastic tubes: they can split.

Just to make it more confusing, it has stopped sulking and is working
again - that is partly what makes me think it is the fan running slow.

Does the fan spin freely? if not clean and lube the bearings. That is the
usual cause of slow running fans.

That is also a _lot_ easier to say than to do. Most of the bearings are
very inaccessible within the fan unit, and any lube that can be got in
tends not to work for very long.

I will take the fan out at the weekend and have a good look - when I
gave it a brief check there did appear to be some lubricant around one
of the bearings and attendant fluff.

Fingers crossed it seems to be running OK at the moment - I half
wondered whether the direction of the wind (across the outlet) could
cause pressure/flow fluctuations.

--
John Alexander,

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail