I've had a quick look at the faqs, with no joy...

I've been called upon by my sister to replace radiators in her house...
a friend of a friend has installed new CH and Rads from a "conventional
radiator pack". Judging from the size of the rads they're about 1/2 the
size that is required for an old, uninsulated house with tall ceilings
(e.g. I've calc'd main-room, 14ftx12ftx12ft needs 2.3kw, rad is probably
1kw [800x600 twin panel]). [separate issue, we're going to insulate the
loft, don't let that detract from the remainder of the story]

So... idea is to replace two largest rooms/radiators with 1400x600
twins, then progressively move the removed radiators through the rest of
the house, replacing next-largest with newly removed radiators.

In principle, I have no real problem with the work involved.... nice
access below the floors, a bit of modification to pipe runs to take,
what for the most of it are wider radiators. BUT... the question is... I
anticipate replacing sections of 22mm pipework to accomodate the larger
rads... online prices suggest a 20% price differential between
solder-ring fittings and end-feed fittings.

As all pipe-work is new (clean copper), given some wire-wool, would the
20% difference between solder-ring fittings, and the price of
solder/flux mean that one or the other is more economical... for someone
who's not soldered pipes in 20 years, is one quicker/easier than the other?

Basically, with 6/7 rads to replace (/move around), what would be the
generally concensus as to the cheapest method (considering I'm buying
all blow-torches etc. from scratch)

Any advice, as it affects the actual cost to my sister, gratefully received.

Regards

Mike Dodd

Mike Dodd wrote:

Basically, with 6/7 rads to replace (/move around), what would be the
generally concensus as to the cheapest method (considering I'm buying
all blow-torches etc. from scratch)


Sorry, to clarify... what I'm really asking, I suppose is... are
solder-ring tee-pieces / joints generally PREFERRED to end-feed?

I remember from many years ago (dunno where or why?, maybe just a random
read) that solder-rings, you have to make all feeds/outlets, before
applying heat, then wait for the solder to just "wet" the visible
pipe... whereas end-feed, you're applying solder to all ports, with heat
applied, and looking for a clean wetted joint.

Flux required for both?, or are the solder-rings pre-fluxed?

Either product easier / more reliable than the other?

Mike

Mike Dodd wrote:
Mike Dodd wrote:

Basically, with 6/7 rads to replace (/move around), what would be the
generally concensus as to the cheapest method (considering I'm buying
all blow-torches etc. from scratch)


Sorry, to clarify... what I'm really asking, I suppose is... are
solder-ring tee-pieces / joints generally PREFERRED to end-feed?

No.
End feed is more inspectable - you can see the ring of solder around the
edge, and if it's got to the other side of the fitting, it's pretty
certain that it's complete.
However.
With constrained access, solder ring is easier.
Flux (a light smear) should always be used.

Solder ring is certainly the more expensive method - from toolstation -
60p/fitting for 22mm equal t, and 1.40 for solder ring.

End feed is also neater, in many peoples view - especially when no excess
solder is used, and the solder is put on from the back.

Any advice, as it affects the actual cost to my sister, gratefully
received.

Regards

Mike Dodd

Sounds like a lot of potential hassle to me.

I'd be inclined to finish insulating the loft, then await a really cold
spell to judge empirically if the existing rads are adequate or otherwise.

You might find that only 2 or 3 rads (or even none) need attention with
pro-rata hassle reduction.

Oh yes......I'd use end feed all the time.

Of course in this instance one additional complication you may have is
residual water in horizontal pipe runs which could make soldering very
frustrating. Worth havung some compression fittings in your bacl pocket
just in case.


david

Ian Stirling wrote:
Mike Dodd wrote:
Mike Dodd wrote:

Basically, with 6/7 rads to replace (/move around), what would be the
generally concensus as to the cheapest method (considering I'm buying
all blow-torches etc. from scratch)

Sorry, to clarify... what I'm really asking, I suppose is... are
solder-ring tee-pieces / joints generally PREFERRED to end-feed?

End feed is more inspectable - you can see the ring of solder around the
edge, and if it's got to the other side of the fitting, it's pretty
certain that it's complete.

But you also get the ring of solder appearing with solder ring fittings
just the same as with end feed - I don't see any difference between the
two from that point of view.

I've only fairly recently graduated from using end-feed fittings as my
default choice, and did so on cost grounds; but I would say that solder
ring fittings are definitely the easier of the two for an experienced
plumber to fit. Yes, they do cost more, but TBH I think for the OP the
appropriate cost comparison is his DIY work versus professional fitting,
which makes the difference between end feed and solder ring fittings
trivial in comparison.

David

In article 4595c326.0@entanet,
Mike Dodd wrote:
As all pipe-work is new (clean copper), given some wire-wool, would the
20% difference between solder-ring fittings, and the price of
solder/flux mean that one or the other is more economical... for someone
who's not soldered pipes in 20 years, is one quicker/easier than the
other?

Basically, with 6/7 rads to replace (/move around), what would be the
generally concensus as to the cheapest method (considering I'm buying
all blow-torches etc. from scratch)

Any advice, as it affects the actual cost to my sister, gratefully
received.

If you're going for solder fittings, reduce the costs further by using end
feed rather than solder ring. The principles of soldering both are the
same - cleanliness, the correct heat and restricting movement until set.
And of course making quite sure there's no water in the tube.

Practice first on some scraps of tube. It's not a difficult skill to
acquire.

--
*I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't care.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Ian Stirling wrote:
End feed is more inspectable - you can see the ring of solder around the
edge, and if it's got to the other side of the fitting, it's pretty
certain that it's complete.

Same with yorkshires.

However. With constrained access, solder ring is easier.

I don't see how - if you can get a blowlamp in you can also the solder.

Flux (a light smear) should always be used.

I wouldn't worry about it being only a light smear. It's more important
to use enough. Excess can be wiped off afterwards with a damp cloth. I
favour an aggressive type like EverFlux, so keep it off your skin as much
as possible. Being water based any excess inside the tube can be flushed
out before commissioning.

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Vortex wrote:
Of course in this instance one additional complication you may have is
residual water in horizontal pipe runs which could make soldering very
frustrating. Worth havung some compression fittings in your bacl pocket
just in case.

One trick is to use a vacuum cleaner etc on blow to dry out a pipe run -
assuming you can disconnect the other end.

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Ian Stirling wrote:
Mike Dodd wrote:
Mike Dodd wrote:

Basically, with 6/7 rads to replace (/move around), what would be the
generally concensus as to the cheapest method (considering I'm buying
all blow-torches etc. from scratch)

Sorry, to clarify... what I'm really asking, I suppose is... are
solder-ring tee-pieces / joints generally PREFERRED to end-feed?

No.
End feed is more inspectable - you can see the ring of solder around the
edge, and if it's got to the other side of the fitting, it's pretty
certain that it's complete.
However.
With constrained access, solder ring is easier.
Flux (a light smear) should always be used.

Solder ring is certainly the more expensive method - from toolstation -
60p/fitting for 22mm equal t, and 1.40 for solder ring.

End feed is also neater, in many peoples view - especially when no excess
solder is used, and the solder is put on from the back.

My first end feeds were blobby, but sound.

Now they are pretty good.

Always clean pipe with wire wool, and inside fittings as well, and
always use flux.

All the pre-loaded ones do is get solder in. Can't see the point mainly.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 01:15:04 +0000, Mike Dodd wrote:

is one quicker/easier than the other?

I'm not a fan of solder ring, principally from the looks but having had
to use some 22mm recently they are less fuss than end fed. Clean
pipe ends, flux, insert pipe rotate to spread flux, heat until solder
shows around joint. Job done.

Having said that push fit is much, much, quicker. There is a certain
satisfaction in neatly bent and solder joined copper but it's terribly
slow compared to the same pipe work and push fit joints and even slower
than plastic pipe and pushfit. I have a feeling that my next plumbing job
may well use pushfit and possibly plastic pipe, provided it is hidden. In
view will still use proper bends in copper and end fed.

As you are gearing up from scratch with blowlamp, flux, solder,
protective mat, pipe cleaner, pipe cutter, half round file to deburr
ends, etc I'd look very hard pushfit all you need is a pipe cutter and
deburrer (appropiate for the pipe in use). Plastic pipe is also cheaper
than copper...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 01:15:04 +0000, Mike Dodd
wrote:

I've had a quick look at the faqs, with no joy...

I've been called upon by my sister to replace radiators in her house...
a friend of a friend has installed new CH and Rads from a "conventional
radiator pack". Judging from the size of the rads they're about 1/2 the
size that is required for an old, uninsulated house with tall ceilings
(e.g. I've calc'd main-room, 14ftx12ftx12ft needs 2.3kw, rad is probably
1kw [800x600 twin panel]). [separate issue, we're going to insulate the
loft, don't let that detract from the remainder of the story]

So... idea is to replace two largest rooms/radiators with 1400x600
twins, then progressively move the removed radiators through the rest of
the house, replacing next-largest with newly removed radiators.

In principle, I have no real problem with the work involved.... nice
access below the floors, a bit of modification to pipe runs to take,
what for the most of it are wider radiators. BUT... the question is... I
anticipate replacing sections of 22mm pipework to accomodate the larger
rads... online prices suggest a 20% price differential between
solder-ring fittings and end-feed fittings.

As all pipe-work is new (clean copper), given some wire-wool, would the
20% difference between solder-ring fittings, and the price of
solder/flux mean that one or the other is more economical... for someone
who's not soldered pipes in 20 years, is one quicker/easier than the other?

Basically, with 6/7 rads to replace (/move around), what would be the
generally concensus as to the cheapest method (considering I'm buying
all blow-torches etc. from scratch)

Any advice, as it affects the actual cost to my sister, gratefully received.

Regards

Mike Dodd

I always used solder ring but having watched trade doing it with end
feed, will always use end feed now.

Apply heat for one-two-three seconds, apply flux on a spatula, apply
solder. Inspect, job done and quickly.

Mike Dodd wrote:

As all pipe-work is new (clean copper), given some wire-wool, would the
20% difference between solder-ring fittings, and the price of
solder/flux mean that one or the other is more economical... for someone
who's not soldered pipes in 20 years, is one quicker/easier than the other?

My choice is end feed for a few reasons:

Cheaper, look nicer, and they heat faster so you can finish the joint
quicker.

Basically, with 6/7 rads to replace (/move around), what would be the
generally concensus as to the cheapest method (considering I'm buying
all blow-torches etc. from scratch)

Get a decent blowtorch with a well focussed flame. I have a Bernzomatic
Quickfire which works well for me, but have used a wickes one in the
past that was OK although a bit on the large size.

Get a good pipe cleaner - Wickes do a nice pipe cleaner that will deburr
the end and clean the outer of a pipe in one action. Its blue, and
cylindrical - costs about a fiver and well worth it. It does 22mm one
end and 15mm the other, much easier than wire wool.

For clean new copper a mildly active flux will do fine. I usually use
Fry Powerflow.



--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

EricP wrote:

Apply heat for one-two-three seconds, apply flux on a spatula, apply
solder. Inspect, job done and quickly.

With most fluxes it is more normal to apply it to the cold joint during
asembly - rotating the parts to get a good even distribution. The amount
of heating will depend a litte on your torch, and the type of jont being
made (e.g. an equal tee will take more heat than a straight).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/