Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Such systems are still used for electric water heaters.
Look up elecrode boilers on google.

A friend came back from holidays ans explained that she had showered on
some country where someone had run a nail through the shower head and
connected it to the mains to get warm water. Yuk. Even worse than these
electrode water heaters.

After I explained what could go wrong she decided that on coming travels
she would rather shower cold.


Thomas

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Such systems are still used for electric water heaters.
Look up elecrode boilers on google. They tend to need
3-phase supplies which rules them out for most of the
UK domestic market, but they are used both domestically
and commercially elsewhere.

There's a set of specific requirements in BS 7671 (the UK wiring
regulations) for electrode boilers - see section 554-03-xx. Single
phase ones are mentioned, but unless certain conditions are met
(including the thing not being piped to a water supply) some unusual
provisions would apply - i.e. a linked cct. breaker to interrupt both
live and neutral feed conductors and bonding of the case to both neutral
and protective earth. Since the latter of these would violate other
requirements it's not clear how you would comply, other than by using a
dedicated isolating transformer.

--
Andy

On 10 Dec 2006 12:30:51 -0800 wrote :
Apparently they still use those bare wire cooking rings in Japan, on
110v.

I've used bare element ceramic jug kettles in Australian motels.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On 10 Dec 2006 12:30:51 -0800 wrote :
Apparently they still use those bare wire cooking rings in Japan, on
110v.

I've used bare element ceramic jug kettles in Australian motels.

A colleague used to have one at work.

I always wondered how much of the water heating is due to AC current passing
through the water ..... (though of course the element has a much lower
resistance than the water ..)

"Clive Mitchell" wrote in message
...
In message om, Dave
Liquorice writes
Oh yeah. I took one of those and several similar electric fires to the
dump when clearing out my fathers loft. Can you still get electric
fires with exposed resistance wire wound around a ceramic former? Can't
say I seen any recently, they all seem to be "ceramic", fan, convector
or oil filled these days.

Nah, you need to poke a key or screwdriver through a plastic grill to
get a decent shock these days.


I was fond of my "ACME" ( I kid you not ) manual toaster similar to this
one. :-

http://www.jitterbuzz.com/furn/five_toast_12.jpg

I could toast almost anything in it.

Though with UK voltage being a few volts higher than when it was made, the
element was getting shorter over time ....

Owain wrote:
wrote:

You really need a boiling ring plugged in - one of those made from a
spiral of bare resistance wire in a ceramic former, that came with a
little rack for making toast with.

Perfect! With overload illusion thrown in. For safety you cant beat
liquids boiling over onto those bare elements. And boiling off before
meeting the earthed case,

lady bracknell an *earthed* case? /lb

through a lampholder adapter?

right


thus making the panful of boiling stuff live
at some random proportion of mains voltage. Metal handles anyone?

I only ever used wooden handled pans and plastic utensils with mine.

The non-riveted type I take it.

Seriously, I wonder just how safe a setup like this would be today if
it were run off a CU with RCD or RCBO.

Not safe.

But don't let me stop you trying it if you really want to.

Owain

heh. I gather Russia still uses kettles with 2 metal electrodes, no
element.

NT

wrote:

The system was installed in the 1930s I wonder what current HSE peeps would
think of it.

I remember my first visit to a cinema; the film was Disney's 'The Sword
in the Stone', the date was 1963, and I was six. I kept looking up
behind me, but could only see the beam coming from the port. After
the show I pestered mother to ask if I could go up to the box. After
what seemed like ages of speaking to the manager, and him 'phoning up
to the projectionist, I was somewhat amased to be led up a very narrow
iron staircase, and out onto the roof, to get there. Pre-war
projectors, Kalee, I think, carbon arcs on everything, glass bulb
mercury arc rectifiers for the projectors, motor-generators for spot
and slide lanterns. Houselight dimmers were a tank of brine, with a
solid iron cone in the bottom, and a hollow one which you winched up
and down with a big wheel. There was even a vault on the roof with a
few reels of nitrate film still in it, old newsreels and such like. I
got to strike one of the arcs, and do a changeover.

I still do the odd projection shift, I'm doing a few hours on Thursday
and a full day on Saturday this week, but sadly it's all xenon lamps
and solid state rectifiers these days.

In article ,
"gentlegreen" writes:

I was fond of my "ACME" ( I kid you not ) manual toaster similar to this
one. :-

http://www.jitterbuzz.com/furn/five_toast_12.jpg

I could toast almost anything in it.

Yep, my grandparents had one of those, although I thought it was
a Morphy Richards in their case. You had to turn the bread over
half way through to toast the other side.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article , Alex
writes

The way the lampholder is suspended depends on the grip of the actual
screw-fittings on the bare wires.

It doesn't.

There is so much safety in electrical products these days that I just
wonder how this sort of lampholder is not obliged to have a decent
flex grip in it.

It does.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

"Chris J Dixon" wrote in message
news
Owain wrote:

wrote:
David Hansen wrote:
They are amusing if one wants to horrify a "safety" person.
To do that you need the full set, 2-way bulb adaptor & BC plug.

You really need a boiling ring plugged in - one of those made from a
spiral of bare resistance wire in a ceramic former, that came with a
little rack for making toast with.

It was once possible to buy replacement coiled elements for
radiant fires. You simply removed the failed one, used a piece
of string to get the length and stretched the new one to suit.
My dad told me that in his college days (1930s) they heated a
room by suspending such an element from the mantelpiece.

Mind you, his mains electric soil sterilisation kit was a bit of
an eye opener - wooden box, metal plate at each end, fill with
soil, add water until ammeter reaches desired level, leave to
simmer. I can smell it now.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Reminds me of the sausage/hot dog cooker one of the guys made in shop class
in school. Hooked one side of the mains to nails set into a circular piece
of wood. Hooked the other side of the mains to several separately-wired
loose nails. Stuck the sausage into a fixed nail and pluged the loose-wired
nail into the other end (had to be sure the sausage was of a certain length
so the nails didn't touch inside the sausage). Plugged the device in and
waited for steam, sound of cooking or an exploding sausage and then they
were done.

Terry McGowan

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:29:30 GMT someone who may be Tony Bryer
wrote this:-

Apparently they still use those bare wire cooking rings in Japan, on
110v.

I've used bare element ceramic jug kettles in Australian motels.

Electric showers with bare elements are used every day in the UK.
Most people would probably be horrified if they knew that the water
makes contact with the bare element before it goes over their body.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In message . com,
writes
heh. I gather Russia still uses kettles with 2 metal electrodes, no
element.

It used to be an old plasterers trick to heat water by banging a nail in
either side of a bit of wood, wrapping live round one and neutral round
the other, then submersing in a bucket of water. I guess with the
presence of plaster the water would be rather conductive.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

"Clive Mitchell" wrote in message
...
In message , Alex
writes
I have never understood how it is still permitted to have a lampholder
like in the OP http://www.toolstation.com/messages.html?closeUp=27046

The way the lampholder is suspended depends on the grip of the actual
screw-fittings on the bare wires.

It's not just relying on the wire being clamped. When assembled correctly
the wires are looped over strain relief hooks which remove a lot of the
pull force.

If a moderately heavy lampshade is used then the whole thing seems to be
asking for trouble.

Some excessive glass lampshades are just asking for trouble in any
scenario.

Does the US have ceiling pendant lampholders as dodgy as this?

No. ALL their wiring accessories are dodgy.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

Unfortunately, the US stuff usually has a plastic wire clamp that one can't
remove without destroying it so that shortening or lengthening the wire is
impossible. My first wiring book years ago showed something called an
"underwriters knott" that added bulk to the wire above the canopy so the
knott took the strain. The knott was easy to tie and could be put
anywhere in the wire though. I still use it for portable lamp sockets.

Terry McGowan

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Clive Mitchell wrote:
It would be nice if they started phasing the older BC and ES holders out.

It would be nice if the Continentals and Americans would at least phase
their ES holders correctly, with N to ring and L to tip.

Owain

It's supposed to work that way with polarized plugs and lamp cord that's
color coded now. But I don't trust it. Someone wiring the plug or
lampholder can easily reverse the leads. Biggest risk is reaching up
underneath the shade to unscrew the bulb without looking and then touching
the screw part of the bulb as it comes out of the socket.

The new GU-24 socket/plug system now being introduced for CFLs might help
though. Is that showing up in the U.K.? Time to get rid of the screw base
anyway.

Terry McGowan

"Owain" wrote in message
...
wrote:
You really need a boiling ring plugged in - one of those made from a
spiral of bare resistance wire in a ceramic former, that came with a
little rack for making toast with.
Perfect! With overload illusion thrown in. For safety you cant beat
liquids boiling over onto those bare elements. And boiling off before
meeting the earthed case,

lady bracknell an *earthed* case? /lb

Now, that made me laugh.

I can hear Edith Evans delivering this in an upper class accent,
a-quiver with indignation, the tone rising in horror at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1jL-9S-oD8

--
Ron

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:07:48 GMT, "TKM"
wrote:


Reminds me of the sausage/hot dog cooker one of the guys made in shop class
in school. Hooked one side of the mains to nails set into a circular piece
of wood. Hooked the other side of the mains to several separately-wired
loose nails. Stuck the sausage into a fixed nail and pluged the loose-wired
nail into the other end (had to be sure the sausage was of a certain length
so the nails didn't touch inside the sausage). Plugged the device in and
waited for steam, sound of cooking or an exploding sausage and then they
were done.

These were commercially available at one time. The cooker
had a plastic cover with an interlock to prevent people from
touching the electrodes. I purchased a used one when I was
teaching lighting technology at the LRC in 2000. I used it
to demonstrate why the students didn't want to touch live
wires.

It makes good hot dogs.

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.

In message , David Hansen
writes
Electric showers with bare elements are used every day in the UK. Most
people would probably be horrified if they knew that the water makes
contact with the bare element before it goes over their body.

Not so sure about these days, but I do remember seeing a shower panel
that was basically a sheet of glass or plastic with the water channel
zig zagging through it and a bare coiled element in the path of the
water. I guess as long as there's a bit of earthed copper pipe at the
output and perhaps the outlet end is wired to neutral then it should be
OK. Then again, not everyone wires things correctly!!!!!!

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

In message ,
TKM writes
The new GU-24 socket/plug system now being introduced for CFLs might
help though. Is that showing up in the U.K.? Time to get rid of the
screw base anyway.

Oh yeah! Not seen that one yet. Just a larger version of the GU10. I
wonder if these types of connectors were inspired by starter contacts.

http://www.ecpzone.com/article/photo...w6_06what6.jpg

Makes sense from a safety and connection quality aspect too. I guess it
might even be cheaper to make the base and socket too. That should
please the manufacturers.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

In article ,
"TKM" writes:
It's supposed to work that way with polarized plugs and lamp cord that's
color coded now. But I don't trust it. Someone wiring the plug or
lampholder can easily reverse the leads. Biggest risk is reaching up
underneath the shade to unscrew the bulb without looking and then touching
the screw part of the bulb as it comes out of the socket.

The new GU-24 socket/plug system now being introduced for CFLs might help
though. Is that showing up in the U.K.?

No. I've seen one company trying to push it, but with the prices
they are charging and the lamps being single sourced and not
available in stores (and several times the price of regular B22d
equivalents), it won't catch on. I really don't see any point in
introducing a new lampholder for integral ballasted CFL's. They
are, after all, retrofit products. If you are designing a luminare
for CFL's, it makes more sense to use separate ballasts which you
don't chuck out every time you change the lamp, and 2-pin or 4-pin
CFL's, or which there are a wide range of established types already.

Time to get rid of the screw base anyway.

We don't use it a lot in the UK. There was a period when we were
getting a number of ES fittings coming from other European countries,
but now that most manufacture of that type is moving to China,
they're generally reverting back to B22d (which China does use too).
ES was used for older spotlamps and floodlamps, but their use has
dropped quite a lot anyway over last 10 years with more compact
sources becoming more popular.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
(Andrew Gabriel) writes:
In article ,
"TKM" writes:
It's supposed to work that way with polarized plugs and lamp cord that's
color coded now. But I don't trust it. Someone wiring the plug or
lampholder can easily reverse the leads. Biggest risk is reaching up
underneath the shade to unscrew the bulb without looking and then touching
the screw part of the bulb as it comes out of the socket.

The new GU-24 socket/plug system now being introduced for CFLs might help
though. Is that showing up in the U.K.?

No. I've seen one company trying to push it, but with the prices

Actually, the one I've seen is GU-10 with an extra bump in the
middle of the base to stop GU-10 halogen bulbs being fitted.
That is what I thought you were referring to. Now that I've seen
clive's picture, I don't think GU-24 exists here at all.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
Actually, the one I've seen is GU-10 with an extra bump in the middle
of the base to stop GU-10 halogen bulbs being fitted. That is what I
thought you were referring to. Now that I've seen clive's picture, I
don't think GU-24 exists here at all.

I've not seen the GU10 with a bump in the middle.....

The safety aspect is going in the right direction. I hope these
fittings take off.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
No. I've seen one company trying to push it, but with the prices they
are charging and the lamps being single sourced and not available in
stores (and several times the price of regular B22d equivalents), it
won't catch on. I really don't see any point in introducing a new
lampholder for integral ballasted CFL's. They are, after all, retrofit
products. If you are designing a luminare for CFL's, it makes more
sense to use separate ballasts which you don't chuck out every time you
change the lamp, and 2-pin or 4-pin CFL's, or which there are a wide
range of established types already.

I get the feeling the way to promote a new GU24 or GU10 system (GU10
seems fine for home lighting applications) is to make it a safety thing
and sell simple adapters that lock firmly into existing lampholders and
allow the use of the new base. That way kids can remove the lamp but
not get access to live contacts.

I'm sure a few faked pictures of screaming children with burnt fingers
would soon appeal to the baby makers and establish the market.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something
like:

Is it possible to get a "Y" adapter which plugs into the existing
lampsocket and then allows me to plug in two CFLs?

Not any more,

You can... NOS, from Oz.

http://tinyurl.com/y9anmn
--

Dave

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Alex saying
something like:

I have never understood how it is still permitted to have a
lampholder like in the OP
http://www.toolstation.com/messages.html?closeUp=27046

The way the lampholder is suspended depends on the grip of the actual
screw-fittings on the bare wires.

It's been a very long time since that was the case. Mind you, half of
them are installed incorrectly and there are still a lot of older crap
ones in use, so you're right in a way.
--

Dave

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David Hansen
saying something like:

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:45:17 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave
Liquorice" wrote this:-

I wouldn't advise using such a device though,

They are amusing if one wants to horrify a "safety" person.

much better to fit extra
fittings in the right place(s) or up the wattage of your CFL.

Indeed.

There are times where a BC light fitting is the only power source - like
in a shed, boilerhouse, etc and such an adaptor is useful.

Too much bloody safety ******ism around these days.
--

Dave

In article ,
Clive Mitchell writes:
In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
Actually, the one I've seen is GU-10 with an extra bump in the middle
of the base to stop GU-10 halogen bulbs being fitted. That is what I
thought you were referring to. Now that I've seen clive's picture, I
don't think GU-24 exists here at all.

I've not seen the GU10 with a bump in the middle.....

The safety aspect is going in the right direction. I hope these
fittings take off.

I would say no chance as they aren't needed.
(It's different for ES lampholders -- they do actually manage
to kill people occasionally, whereas BC never has done).
And as I said before, why on earth design a new lampholder
exclusively for retrofit compact fluorescents? Just don't use
retrofits with integral ballasts in the first place, and the
problem is completely solved.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In message , Grimly
Curmudgeon writes
Too much bloody safety ******ism around these days.

Absolutely. Are you guys and galls aware that on construction sites in
the UK contractors have effectively been banned from using ladders and
steps in case they fall off them? Instead we have to use "one man
scaffolds" for even something as trivial as running a cable above a
ceiling. As you can guess this is a complete chore and rather bad for
ones back due to the lack of ease in height adjustment and trying to get
these monstrosities through doors.

It's like the HSE said "Ooh! Lots of people fall at work so lets ban
ladders." Well lots of people get knocked down by cars so lets ban them
too. It's the same logic.

While I'm ranting..... A quick reminder for self employed UK
contractors. Unless you have the CSCS certificate you may not be able to
work on construction sites from next year. For electricians this is
particularly grim since we have to get ours through the JIB and they
aren't exactly well organised.

You can look forward to such questions as....

Your work colleague gets an electric shock and doesn't feel well. Do
you:-

A. Get him a nice hot cup of tea.
B. Send him home.
C. Seek medical assistance immediately.
D. Slap him firmly in the face and tell him to pull himself together.

Really. That's the level of questions.

Red tape and unskilled labour is making even the simplest job a chore.
It's time to emigrate.


--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

"Clive Mitchell" wrote in message
...
[snip]

You can look forward to such questions as....

Your work colleague gets an electric shock and doesn't feel well. Do
you:-

A. Get him a nice hot cup of tea.
B. Send him home.
C. Seek medical assistance immediately.
D. Slap him firmly in the face and tell him to pull himself together.

Really. That's the level of questions.

ROTFL!!

Red tape and unskilled labour is making even the simplest job a chore.
It's time to emigrate.

Where to though? This thing is catchy. In a few years nobody will be allowed
to do anything without a Ph.D. in their respective field.

--
Clive Mitchell
--
Ioannis
-------
The best way to predict reality, is to know exactly what you DON'T want.

Clive Mitchell wrote:
In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes

No. I've seen one company trying to push it, but with the prices they
are charging and the lamps being single sourced and not available in
stores (and several times the price of regular B22d equivalents), it
won't catch on. I really don't see any point in introducing a new
lampholder for integral ballasted CFL's. They are, after all, retrofit
products. If you are designing a luminare for CFL's, it makes more
sense to use separate ballasts which you don't chuck out every time you
change the lamp, and 2-pin or 4-pin CFL's, or which there are a wide
range of established types already.

I get the feeling the way to promote a new GU24 or GU10 system (GU10
seems fine for home lighting applications) is to make it a safety thing
and sell simple adapters that lock firmly into existing lampholders and
allow the use of the new base. That way kids can remove the lamp but
not get access to live contacts.

I'm sure a few faked pictures of screaming children with burnt fingers
would soon appeal to the baby makers and establish the market.

Sounds good to me. I'll add one other thing, any new base should be as
material efficient as possible, and theres no base more efficient than
no base at all. That means wedge bulbs and bipins, either of which
would make safer cheaper successors. Obviously the biguns would need to
stay with ES, like the larger hardened PAR lamps.


NT

wrote:
wrote:

The system was installed in the 1930s I wonder what current HSE peeps would
think of it.

I remember my first visit to a cinema; the film was Disney's 'The Sword
in the Stone', the date was 1963, and I was six. I kept looking up
behind me, but could only see the beam coming from the port. After
the show I pestered mother to ask if I could go up to the box. After
what seemed like ages of speaking to the manager, and him 'phoning up
to the projectionist, I was somewhat amased to be led up a very narrow
iron staircase, and out onto the roof, to get there. Pre-war
projectors, Kalee, I think, carbon arcs on everything, glass bulb
mercury arc rectifiers for the projectors, motor-generators for spot
and slide lanterns. Houselight dimmers were a tank of brine, with a
solid iron cone in the bottom, and a hollow one which you winched up
and down with a big wheel. There was even a vault on the roof with a
few reels of nitrate film still in it, old newsreels and such like. I
got to strike one of the arcs, and do a changeover.

Those are the ones I used to work with. Made in 1942, but they looked
older. The arc was 40v at 40A. I remember one day one of us found one
on show in a museum somewhere, we were still using them. Excellent
optics.


I still do the odd projection shift, I'm doing a few hours on Thursday
and a full day on Saturday this week, but sadly it's all xenon lamps
and solid state rectifiers these days.

No tending arcs, no CO from failed vent fans, no temporary blindness
from looking in the back end at the arc, no changeovers, no one-sided
tan from the arc... sounds boring.

The worst film I ever showed we got 2 of the 12 reels round the wrong
way - but it was so bad no-one even noticed!


NT

Ioannis wrote:
"Clive Mitchell" wrote in message
...

You can look forward to such questions as....

Your work colleague gets an electric shock and doesn't feel well. Do
you:-

A. Get him a nice hot cup of tea.
B. Send him home.
C. Seek medical assistance immediately.
D. Slap him firmly in the face and tell him to pull himself together.

Really. That's the level of questions.

ROTFL!!

Red tape and unskilled labour is making even the simplest job a chore.
It's time to emigrate.

Where to though? This thing is catchy. In a few years nobody will be allowed
to do anything without a Ph.D. in their respective field.

But if things keep going the same way, by then most schools leavers
will have a PhD


NT

On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 01:01:30 GMT someone who may be Clive Mitchell
wrote this:-

It's like the HSE said "Ooh! Lots of people fall at work so lets ban
ladders." Well lots of people get knocked down by cars so lets ban them
too. It's the same logic.

After they had expanded their empire to include railways the HSE did
consider grabbing road safety as well. However, they soon decided
not to and later even ran away screaming when asked to look at
workplace health and safety when the person concerned happened to be
in a motor vehicle.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gentlegreen" writes:

I was fond of my "ACME" ( I kid you not ) manual toaster similar to this
one. :-

http://www.jitterbuzz.com/furn/five_toast_12.jpg

I could toast almost anything in it.

Yep, my grandparents had one of those, although I thought it was
a Morphy Richards in their case. You had to turn the bread over
half way through to toast the other side.

I'm fairly sure mine said "automatic" on it - there was apparently a way of
opening the sides that caused the bread to flip over when you closed them
again ;-)

In message 1165886427.708645@athnrd02, Ioannis
writes
Really. That's the level of questions.

ROTFL!!

(And you probably thought I was joking.)

Red tape and unskilled labour is making even the simplest job a chore.
It's time to emigrate.

Where to though? This thing is catchy. In a few years nobody will be
allowed to do anything without a Ph.D. in their respective field.

Anywhere that's not populated so densely that they have to invent
fictitious jobs just to keep wasters busy. A job on a site where the
technical labour wasn't matched man for man by an office worker would be
a good start.

I'm even thinking of dropping my trade. After 25 years as an
electrician in the more industrial side of electrical and electronic
engineering I'm just sick of red tape. Maybe I'll get a job as a safety
officer.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

In message . com,
writes
Where to though? This thing is catchy. In a few years nobody will be allowed
to do anything without a Ph.D. in their respective field.

But if things keep going the same way, by then most schools leavers
will have a PhD

But still no real technical skills whatsoever.

I just discovered that in Norway they teach electronics at primary
school, including soldering!

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

Clive Mitchell wrote...
Are you guys and galls aware that on construction sites in the UK
contractors have effectively been banned from using ladders and steps in
case they fall off them? Instead we have to use "one man scaffolds" for
even something as trivial as running a cable above a ceiling. As you can
guess this is a complete chore and rather bad for ones back due to the
lack of ease in height adjustment and trying to get these monstrosities
through doors.

It's like the HSE said "Ooh! Lots of people fall at work so lets ban
ladders." Well lots of people get knocked down by cars so lets ban them
too. It's the same logic.

I don't believe that it's quite as bad as that - AFAIK the guidelines are
that ladders are not suitable for long-term access and are supposed to be
for jobs that are not anticipated to take more than about 20minutes.

Only second-hand info though so I may be wrong - however it does make sense,
since I do find that I feel safer the longer I spend up a ladder and so
would probably become less aware of safety issues after a long period and
more likely to take unnecessary risks.

Just been out inspecting 120 bat boxes in a woodland and the idea of having
to set up scaffolding around every tree is outrageous!

David

The message
from "David Lee"
contains these words:

I don't believe that it's quite as bad as that - AFAIK the guidelines are
that ladders are not suitable for long-term access and are supposed to be
for jobs that are not anticipated to take more than about 20minutes.

I saw a bloke putting up a Sky dish no higher than the top of the door
lintel wearing a bash hat the other day.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

In message , David Lee
writes
I don't believe that it's quite as bad as that - AFAIK the guidelines
are that ladders are not suitable for long-term access and are supposed
to be for jobs that are not anticipated to take more than about
20minutes.

Try taking a pair of steps near one of the larger contractors sites and
see what happens. It seems that the contractors with the highest amount
of deaths on their sites are "stricter" on their safety rules. This
isn't because they care. It's because they want a way to blame any
accident on the worker involved.

One in particular inadvertently admitted that the highest number of
fatal accidents involved workers new on their jobs. Or in other words
if you bring in unskilled labour off the street they are more likely to
be killed on a site. Strangely enough that's why you don't let children
play on building sites too.

It's not about proper training any more. It's just about shifting
liability away from management. We'd be safer without the HSE.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

In message , Guy King
writes
I don't believe that it's quite as bad as that - AFAIK the guidelines are
that ladders are not suitable for long-term access and are supposed to be
for jobs that are not anticipated to take more than about 20minutes.

I saw a bloke putting up a Sky dish no higher than the top of the door
lintel wearing a bash hat the other day.

I'm surprised he wasn't forced to wear a safety harness as well. The
weirdest thing is seeing the traffic light guys being forced to wear
fall arrest harnesses. If they fall and the shock absorber in the
lanyard deploys they will still hit the ground.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

The message
from Clive Mitchell contains these words:

I'm surprised he wasn't forced to wear a safety harness as well.

He was - but it wasn't clipped to anything as there wasn't anything to
which to clip it.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.