At the moment I have some points where the cat5 cable emerges into the
same double patress box as mains electricity. Is this going to cause
me problems?

Cat5 cable should not be in the same pattress as mains electricity. Only
cables rated to 500V(?) insulation should be layed next to mains cable.
Alternatives are to separate by 50mm, or to provide extra insulation. The
last possibility might work in your case. I suspect running in plastic
conduit would provide sufficient insulation for your needs.

This is not for interference protection, but for electrical safety. I've
never found mains borne interference to be problematic with 100BaseT
ethernet, although I wouldn't be surprised if it was bad for Gigabit.

Will it really make that much difference if I clip them ever-so-gently?

Depends if you cock it up. If you hit the cable with a hammer, then you have
a substantial chance of breaking the extremely delicate conductors. An
alternative is to hit the clip in without the cable present. Then use cable
ties (mucho cheapo) to tie the entire bundle of cables to the clip.

Christian.

Martin Pentreath wrote:

Finally at the moment I have cat5 cables festooned around the cellar.
I have an itching urge to clip them to the overhead joists but I know
this is a no-no and I should be using trays. Will it really make that
much difference if I clip them ever-so-gently?

If you use loose clips (8mm) and space them fairly close
together (40cm max) they will be fine.

--
Grunff

"Martin Pentreath" wrote in message
om...
I'm in the awkward process of trying to get cat5 cable through my
victorian terrace (seems funny to be laying this stuff alongside
long-defunct gaslight piping). At least the drain rods I bought to
save being ripped off by emergency plumbers are finding a use in
pushing cable through dusty holes.

Anyway, I'm only planning on using the cable for telephony for now -
it's just that it seemed more sensible to lay cat5 just in case rather
then telephone cable. Anyway, bearing in mind that I'm not setting up
as an ISP I'm not sure how strictly I really need to follow the cat5
rules.

At the moment I have some points where the cat5 cable emerges into the
same double patress box as mains electricity. Is this going to cause
me problems? If it does will it only be a problem if I try to shove
several megabits of data down the cable, or will it interfere with
telephones too? I could put in separate patresses, but I'm fed up of
chiselling holes in the wall.

On a similar note there are places where the cable run through a void
will be very difficult unless I run it for a short distance alongside
a mains cable.

Finally at the moment I have cat5 cables festooned around the cellar.
I have an itching urge to clip them to the overhead joists but I know
this is a no-no and I should be using trays. Will it really make that
much difference if I clip them ever-so-gently?

It's been a while since I looked, but last time I checked the IEE wiring
regs prohibited running comms cable in the same trunking or channel as
mains wiring.

Double patress boxes are available with spaces for two single socket
outlet size plates and a separator between them, this would be an option
but you would need to route the cable separately.

Personally I wouldn't use CAT5 cable for telephones anyway, but that's
just me :-)

Ivor

BS 7671 'Requirements for Electrical Installations (IEE Wiring Regulations
16th Edition' prohibits circuits of different voltage bands sharing the same
enclosure, except in special circumstances.

For the purposes of the Regulations, telecommunications circuits are
generally classed as being in Voltage Band I, whilst mains voltage circuits
are classed as Voltage Band II.

If you would like further information on the ways in which you can solve
your problem and still comply with the Regulations, post back.

Cheers,

Ross

"Martin Pentreath" wrote in message
om...
I'm in the awkward process of trying to get cat5 cable through my
victorian terrace (seems funny to be laying this stuff alongside
long-defunct gaslight piping)...

Me too. :-)

At the moment I have some points where the cat5 cable emerges into the
same double patress box as mains electricity...

Personally I wouldn't do this, for safety reasons.

...On a similar note there are places where the cable run through a void
will be very difficult unless I run it for a short distance alongside
a mains cable...

I would even avoid this. I've had to reroute one such cable because of hum
(floorboards up again!).

The problem is, UK phone extensions use three wires and are therefore not
fully "balanced", which makes them susceptible to crosstalk. You can solve
this by running only two wires and fitting a "PBX master" at the end to
generate the third, but this adds extra capacitance which can affect
performance (and be detected at the exchange). Having said all that, such
effects are slight and you won't notice any problems in the majority of
installations.

Finally at the moment I have cat5 cables festooned around the cellar.
I have an itching urge to clip them to the overhead joists but I know
this is a no-no and I should be using trays. Will it really make that
much difference if I clip them ever-so-gently?

Not as long as you avoid compressing the cable. Also remember to avoid sharp
bends.

My final tip is to pull plenty of cables now so you won't have to do the job
again (even if you don't provide sockets for them all). I've pulled three
CAT5 (one for phone, one for ethernet, one spare) and TV coax to each room
in the house that might get used as a "study" and de-squeaked floorboards
while I was at it. Oh, and don't put the pattresses too close together - I
bought some brass TV and phone faceplates and found they were bigger than
the normal plastic ones and wouldn't fit!

--
Phil McKerracher
www.mckerracher.org

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I hadn't even thought of the
electrical safety angle, I was more concerned about mains hum. Just as
well I posted.

I have been using 'dual' pattress boxes from Screwfix (ref 18949)
which take two 1-gang faceplates and have a metal 'partition'
screening each half from the other. However, to make it easier to get
the cables in I've fed them both through one hole and knocked out the
partition, doh.

I guess these pattresses used properly would comply with the regs, is
that right Ross? Do you have other cunning plans which would help me
out?(Incidentally the other cables belong to a 5 amp, round-pin, mains
lighting circuit controlled from the light switch by the door and fed
from a FCU on the ring which I thought I may as well put in while I
was messing about with the floorboads).

Phil, I'm a bit worried about your reported mains hum. All the cat5
cables from the ground floor go up to the attic via a convenient shaft
I found which takes the soil stack up through the building. Between
two floors there is a length of 2.5mm T&E mains cable sharing the
shaft. I can't think of another convenient way of routing the cat5 up
through the building, so I think I'll have to risk it. If anything it
would be easier to find another route for the mains cable. All these
cables are dangling loosely in the vertical shaft, so they shouldn't
be in very close proximity. I think it's just going to be fingers
crossed (no, I can't hear a bee on the line dear).

Ivor, why wouldn't you use cat5 for telephones, am I missing
something?

And as for clipping the things the consensus seems to be that it'll be
alright if I'm very careful, so I think I'll be having another evening
in the cellar very soon.

Martin

In article ,
"Ivor Jones" writes:

It's been a while since I looked, but last time I checked the IEE wiring
regs prohibited running comms cable in the same trunking or channel as
mains wiring.

Double patress boxes are available with spaces for two single socket
outlet size plates and a separator between them, this would be an option
but you would need to route the cable separately.

There's a telephony regulation for telephony circuits connected
to the public telephone network which requires phone outlets to
be at least 50mm from mains outlets. Sorry I don't know the
reference for this.

Also, the separator in Double patress boxes does not seal the
two compartments if the box is recessed behind the plaster
surface any distance. (Indeed, I often end up passing earth
wires over the separator, making use of just this 'feature'.)

--
Andrew Gabriel

Martin Ktech wrote:
Cat5 is yesterday!! Why not get into the 21st Century with Dect &
WiFi? No wires, & great for the woman in your life who just has to
move that furniture!

No it's not I have had DECT since the start but a Tivo requires a socketed
connection unless you want to spend a fortune on a wi-fi adaptation that
invalidates the unit warranty.

"Martin Pentreath" wrote in message
om...

Ivor, why wouldn't you use cat5 for telephones, am I missing
something?

CAT5 is stranded conductor whereas normal phone cable is solid. Stranded
cores (at least in my experience) don't make as good a contact with the
displacement type terminations on a standard telephone socket.

Just my view, your mileage and/or experience may vary.

Ivor

In message , Ivor Jones wrote


"Martin Pentreath" wrote in message
. com...

Ivor, why wouldn't you use cat5 for telephones, am I missing
something?

CAT5 is stranded conductor whereas normal phone cable is solid. Stranded
cores (at least in my experience) don't make as good a contact with the
displacement type terminations on a standard telephone socket.


AFAIK Cat5 installation cable is solid core, it's only the patch cable
that's stranded (stranded being more flexible but having higher
attenuation).

--
Dave Cunningham dave at upsilon org uk
PGP KEY ID: 0xA78636DC

In message , Ivor Jones
writes

"Martin Pentreath" wrote in message
. com...

Ivor, why wouldn't you use cat5 for telephones, am I missing
something?

CAT5 is stranded conductor

No it's not

--
geoff

Martin Pentreath wrote:
[snip]
Phil, I'm a bit worried about your reported mains hum. All the cat5
cables from the ground floor go up to the attic via a convenient shaft
I found which takes the soil stack up through the building. Between
two floors there is a length of 2.5mm T&E mains cable sharing the
shaft. I can't think of another convenient way of routing the cat5 up
through the building, so I think I'll have to risk it. If anything it
would be easier to find another route for the mains cable. All these
cables are dangling loosely in the vertical shaft, so they shouldn't
be in very close proximity. I think it's just going to be fingers
crossed (no, I can't hear a bee on the line dear).

It might be worth you looking at FTP Cat5 cable which contains a foil
shielding to reduces interference. It's more expensive than the normal
UTP stuff, but you may find the extra shielding reduces the potential
interference from the mains cabling.

-Duncan

In article ,
Jim Ley wrote:

Ignoring the fact that I agree wired's appropriate, but a single
ethernet to wireless bridge wouldn't cost a fortune, and wouldn't need
anything that invalidated your TiVo warranty.

It would.

By default TiVos (well, UK series 1 models anyway) do not have any sort of
ethernet connection. They rely on a modem that does not work well over
cordless phone extensions.

TiVonet/TurboNet hacks are hardware based and give the TiVo an RJ45 ethernet
port. AirNet provides WiFi by using a pc card on a small adaptor. Both
require the box to be opened (and therefore kill any warranty). A ethernet
to wireless bridge wouldn't help as there would be nowhere on the TiVo to
plug it :-(

http://www.9thtee.net/turbonet.htm
http://www.9thtee.net/tivoairnet.htm

for more info.

Darren - this got slightly off topic really :-)

In article ,
Phil McKerracher wrote:

"Martin Ktech" wrote in message
...

Cat5 is yesterday!! Why not get into the 21st Century with Dect & WiFi?
No wires, & great for the woman in your life who just has to move that
furniture!

Well, because CAT5 is ten times as cheap, ten times as fast, ten times more

If you do Cat 5e it can be twenty times as fast.

reliable and ten times more secure than DECT and WiFi. And in a Victorian

As the custodian of several thousand runs of Cat 5, I'd question
`reliable'. If a base station fails, chuck it and buy another one.
Diagnosing faults in Cat 5 is a real pain. Of course, in a res
environment you'll have plenty of margin for error, but one the cables
get over 50m long you need to be confident they're well terminated.

ian

"Phil McKerracher" wrote in
:


"Martin Ktech" wrote in message
...

Cat5 is yesterday!! Why not get into the 21st Century with Dect &
WiFi? No wires, & great for the woman in your life who just has to
move that furniture!

Well, because CAT5 is ten times as cheap, ten times as fast, ten times
more reliable and ten times more secure than DECT and WiFi. And in a
Victorian (actually Edwardian in my case) house it's relatively easy
to get wires under the floor and through walls.

Wireless is great in the many situations where wires aren't practical,
but not as a first choice.


Well I am sure you said the same thing about a cellphone 10 years ago and
look where we are now!!!

"Martin Ktech" wrote in message
...
"Phil McKerracher" wrote in
:


"Martin Ktech" wrote in message
...

Cat5 is yesterday!! Why not get into the 21st Century with Dect &
WiFi? No wires, & great for the woman in your life who just has to
move that furniture!

Well, because CAT5 is ten times as cheap, ten times as fast, ten times
more reliable and ten times more secure than DECT and WiFi. And in a
Victorian (actually Edwardian in my case) house it's relatively easy
to get wires under the floor and through walls.

Wireless is great in the many situations where wires aren't practical,
but not as a first choice.


Well I am sure you said the same thing about a cellphone 10 years ago and
look where we are now!!!


cellphones are not secure though, and forever dropping calls or failure to
connect - in a house CAT5 is a more logical choice.

Rick

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...
cellphones are not secure though, and forever dropping calls or failure to
connect - in a house CAT5 is a more logical choice.

My DECT cordless phone never drops a call (unless i walk off 200 metres down
the road with it) & its as secure as it needs to be. Whoever bothers to hack
its encryption is going to be mighty disappointed with the information the
manage to hear!!

Paul

Martin Pentreath wrote:

At the moment I have some points where the cat5 cable emerges into the
same double patress box as mains electricity. Is this going to cause
me problems? If it does will it only be a problem if I try to shove
several megabits of data down the cable, or will it interfere with

The problem is that if you manage to feed mains into low
voltage cabling things will get both dangerous and expensive.
Connect mains to the public telephone network and you'd best
consider yourself lucky if all you get is a large bill.

telephones too? I could put in separate patresses, but I'm fed up of
chiselling holes in the wall.

Either get used to it or use some surface mount boxes for
the data outlets.

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes

None at all. Loasd of installations use cable ties to whatever is handy.

But a word of warning. When using cable ties to secure Cat5 cable, pull
the ties tight *gently* - not so hard that the cable is crushed.

--
A. Top posters.
Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

Re-usable velcro type cable ties are good for Cat5. Coupled with cable tie
bases screwed to the approriate building surfaces thay are handy for running
Cat5 without having to resort to conduit or trunking.

In article , Phil McKerracher
URL:mailto
My final tip is to pull plenty of cables now so you won't have to do the job
again (even if you don't provide sockets for them all). I've pulled three
CAT5 (one for phone, one for ethernet, one spare) and TV coax

You did use EN50117 double screened co-ax didn't you Phil?

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"Andy Luckman" wrote in message
...
In article , Phil
McKerracher
URL:mailto
My final tip is to pull plenty of cables now so you won't have to do the
job
again (even if you don't provide sockets for them all). I've pulled
three
CAT5 (one for phone, one for ethernet, one spare) and TV coax

You did use EN50117 double screened co-ax didn't you Phil?

No. Should I have?

It's a mishmash of whatever was to hand, to be honest. From memory none of
it looked as if it had two screens though. Seems to work fine anyway.

--
Phil McKerracher
www.mckerracher.org

In article ,
Phil McKerracher URL:mailto
You did use EN50117 double screened co-ax didn't you Phil?

No. Should I have?

You will have to replace it then at some point.

It's a mishmash of whatever was to hand, to be honest. From memory none of
it looked as if it had two screens though. Seems to work fine anyway.

The correct, approved cable is branded every metre down its length,
regardless of manufacturer. You will find that when the great analogue
closedown happens, or you want digital terrestrial beforehand, your
screening will be very likely inadequte. This will result in picture freeze
/ breakup every time your 'fridge' thermostat switches etc. Approved cable
also has better loss and tilt specifications than conventional run of the
mill cables.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"Andy Luckman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Phil McKerracher URL:mailto
You did use EN50117 double screened co-ax didn't you Phil?

No. Should I have?

You will have to replace it then at some point.

It's a mishmash of whatever was to hand, to be honest. From memory none
of
it looked as if it had two screens though. Seems to work fine anyway.

The correct, approved cable is branded every metre down its length,
regardless of manufacturer. You will find that when the great analogue
closedown happens, or you want digital terrestrial beforehand, your
screening will be very likely inadequte. This will result in picture
freeze
/ breakup every time your 'fridge' thermostat switches etc. Approved cable
also has better loss and tilt specifications than conventional run of the
mill cables.

I believe you, but at the moment single shielded coax comes from an antenna
in the roofspace to the lounge, the satellite and VCR carriers are added, it
goes to a distribution system under the stairs then back up to a bedroom
(sharing a cable duct with active 100 Mbit/s ethernet and three-wire phone
extensions), where it's decoded without any problems by a digital
terrestrial receiver. Touch wood. So it's not that bad. Admittedly we're
almost line of sight from Crystal Palace.

A good point to bear in mind if I have to lift the floorboards again though.

--
Phil McKerracher
www.mckerracher.org