Hi,

I had a conservatory built in 1998 and had existing wooden french
windows between the house and the conservatory. I removed the doors in
2002 but left the frame in place.

I am now selling the house and I obviously need to put wooden french
windows back. I bought exterior grade french windows with toughened
glass panels and hung them myself in the original doorframe. The house
buyers solicitor is now requesting a FENSA certificate for the
installation.

I could get one from the local authority, but it wil take 21 days, and
we are trying to complete the house sale by next week , but my question
is:

Do I need one for wooden single glazed doors that have replaced similar
ones?




--
archie2000

The message m
from archie2000 m
contains these words:

I am now selling the house and I obviously need to put wooden french
windows back. I bought exterior grade french windows with toughened
glass panels and hung them myself in the original doorframe. The house
buyers solicitor is now requesting a FENSA certificate for the
installation.

Just tell him you ain't got one. He's only jumping through hoops. If the
client really wants the house they're not going to let something like
that stand in their way.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Guy King wrote:
The message m
from archie2000 m
contains these words:

I am now selling the house and I obviously need to put wooden french
windows back. I bought exterior grade french windows with toughened
glass panels and hung them myself in the original doorframe. The house
buyers solicitor is now requesting a FENSA certificate for the
installation.

Just tell him you ain't got one. He's only jumping through hoops. If the
client really wants the house they're not going to let something like
that stand in their way.

Agreed. Tell him you will pay 175 quid indemnity insurance to cover any
little lack of documentation that might delay the sale.

I have just been in contact with the firm who supplied the doors and
they say that they never register wooden glazed doors with FENSA, only
double glazed units.

So the certificate is not applicable




--
archie2000

archie2000 wrote:
I have just been in contact with the firm who supplied the doors and
they say that they never register wooden glazed doors with FENSA, only
double glazed units.

So the certificate is not applicable





AFAIK, if the original frame is still there, it counts as a repair and
is not notifiable.

On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 10:20:14 GMT, Stuart Noble wrote:

AFAIK, if the original frame is still there, it counts as a repair and
is not notifiable.

Thats a very good hook. B-)

I was thinking why bother putting any doors back. One assumes the OP was
happy without doors so sell as is (was) and let the new owner worry about
the FENSA "problem". Also doesn't FENSA only apply to external
doors/winows? These french doors are now internal between the house and
conservatory...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 10:20:14 GMT, Stuart Noble wrote:

AFAIK, if the original frame is still there, it counts as a repair and
is not notifiable.

Thats a very good hook. B-)

I was thinking why bother putting any doors back. One assumes the OP was
happy without doors so sell as is (was) and let the new owner worry about
the FENSA "problem". Also doesn't FENSA only apply to external
doors/winows? These french doors are now internal between the house and
conservatory...


Either way it should be enough for the buyer's solicitor

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 10:20:14 GMT, Stuart Noble wrote:

AFAIK, if the original frame is still there, it counts as a repair and
is not notifiable.

Thats a very good hook. B-)

I was thinking why bother putting any doors back. One assumes the OP was
happy without doors so sell as is (was) and let the new owner worry about
the FENSA "problem". Also doesn't FENSA only apply to external
doors/winows? These french doors are now internal between the house and
conservatory...

Do not take this advise! A 'conservatory', to meet the _law_; must be
'closed-off' from the rest of the house - otherwise it's an 'extension'. An
'extension' needs to meet several insulation requirements. Conservatories
obviate some of these requirements but must meet certain others to be
excused. A door -from a house- into a 'conservatory' must be an
external-quality door. If these doors are not extant then I wouldn't be
surprised if other regulation had been over-looked. Why not ask your local
authority's Building Control Officer for their opinion ... ?

--

Brian

Brian Sharrock Wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...-
On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 10:20:14 GMT, Stuart Noble wrote:
-
AFAIK, if the original frame is still there, it counts as a repair
and
is not notifiable.-

Thats a very good hook. B-)

I was thinking why bother putting any doors back. One assumes the OP
was
happy without doors so sell as is (was) and let the new owner worry
about
the FENSA "problem". Also doesn't FENSA only apply to external
doors/winows? These french doors are now internal between the house
and
conservatory...
-
Do not take this advise! A 'conservatory', to meet the _law_; must be
'closed-off' from the rest of the house - otherwise it's an
'extension'. An
'extension' needs to meet several insulation requirements.
Conservatories
obviate some of these requirements but must meet certain others to be
excused. A door -from a house- into a 'conservatory' must be an
external-quality door. If these doors are not extant then I wouldn't be

surprised if other regulation had been over-looked. Why not ask your
local
authority's Building Control Officer for their opinion ... ?

--

Brian

The doors are external grade and I have fitted locks, etc. That has
been deemed ok. The whole issue is around the need for a FENSA
certificate.

Archie




--
archie2000

The message m
from archie2000 m
contains these words:

The doors are external grade and I have fitted locks, etc. That has
been deemed ok. The whole issue is around the need for a FENSA
certificate.

Tell 'em to bugger off.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The doors are external grade and I have fitted locks, etc. That has
been deemed ok. The whole issue is around the need for a FENSA
certificate.

You can't get one, as to be external these days requires double glazing. The
best you can hope for is a letter from the BCO agreeing that it was a
like-for-like repair and not subject to regulation.

Christian.

Well, I had to bite the bullet and arrange for UPVC double glazed doors
to be fitted instead of the wooden french windows.

Spoke to my local provider who I bought the french doors off, and he
was of the opinion that the BCO would deem them as not suitable and
tell me to replace them with FENSA approved doors. Anyway, he has a
frame and doors that got slightly damaged and was turned down by a
customer that will fit into the doorway between my lounge and
conservatory (at a much reduced price). He will also provide the
required FENSA certificate. Damage is barely noticable (fussy
customer) so I am going with that option. Also they can be fitted by
the end of the week rather than waiting 2 weeks for new ones to be
made.

Thanks to everyone who posted on this thread for the advice and
comments.

Archie




--
archie2000

Well, I had to bite the bullet and arrange for UPVC double glazed doors
to be fitted instead of the wooden french windows.

You could always fit DG units to your existing wooden SG doors. If the doors
are too thin for conventional units, you might still get away with stepped
units. Also, check with the BCO as the SG units might be allowed under
"repair".

With both of these options, you aren't left with hideous plastic doors in
your house.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
.. .
Well, I had to bite the bullet and arrange for UPVC double glazed doors
to be fitted instead of the wooden french windows.

You could always fit DG units to your existing wooden SG doors. If the
doors are too thin for conventional units, you might still get away with
stepped units. Also, check with the BCO as the SG units might be allowed
under "repair".

With both of these options, you aren't left with hideous plastic doors in
your house.

Christian.



Christian; the OP stated that s/he had removed the doors between the house
and a conservatory and was querying the requirement for a FENSA certified
'Exterior grade' door to be replaced.
If it's _truly_ a conservatory then it _must_ be totally exterior to the
house - otherwise it's an _extension- . Any BCO and/or solicitor worth
their salt (salary) would require that documentary evidence was provided
that an external-grade door (insulation and security) compliant door was
extant. [FENSA is a self-funding association of 'glazers' that can
self-certify the installation]. The provision may be in your words "hideous
plastic doors "; but it _is_ the law. [you don't _have_ to use a FENSA
organisation - but you must be able to satisfy the BCO].

--

Brian

Christian; the OP stated that s/he had removed the doors between the house
and a conservatory and was querying the requirement for a FENSA certified
'Exterior grade' door to be replaced.

All I'm saying is that the OP may have the right to have an exterior door
that complied with the regulations at the time that the frame was installed,
so the existing wooden door may be OK as it might count as a "repair".

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
.. .
Christian; the OP stated that s/he had removed the doors between the
house and a conservatory and was querying the requirement for a FENSA
certified 'Exterior grade' door to be replaced.

All I'm saying is that the OP may have the right to have an exterior door
that complied with the regulations at the time that the frame was
installed, so the existing wooden door may be OK as it might count as a
"repair".

Christian.


And all I'm saying is that - according to the OP - there wasn't a door there
at all!
Let this be a lesson - don't ignore the Building Regulations (demounting an
external door) and moan about being found out. If the original doors had
been extant the question wouldn't have arisen! Full marks to the purchasers
solicitor for demanding compliance.

I'm slightly sensitive ; having forked out loadsamoney to the Council for
planning permission and Building Control approval fees ... I get upset when
Estate Agents show pictures of non-compliant 'Conservatories' - with open
access to the house - , illicit staircases - no spindles that'd pass the 4"
(aka 100mm) ball test ... etc. etc.
If _I_ have to comply with the reg's (and Two-jags' "Kyoto" requirements) ;
why shouldn't the OP?

--

Brian

The message
from "Brian Sharrock" contains these words:

If _I_ have to comply with the reg's (and Two-jags' "Kyoto" requirements) ;
why shouldn't the OP?

Quite possibly, but I shall be removing the doors between the house and
the conservatory and replacing them with nice wooden draught-proofed
double glazed doors. Because these will be home made they won't get a
FENSA certificate. Unless of course I manufacture my own. Which if I
ever sell this place I might well do.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Brian Sharrock" contains these words:

If _I_ have to comply with the reg's (and Two-jags' "Kyoto" requirements)
;
why shouldn't the OP?

Quite possibly, but I shall be removing the doors between the house and
the conservatory and replacing them with nice wooden draught-proofed
double glazed doors. Because these will be home made they won't get a
FENSA certificate. Unless of course I manufacture my own. Which if I
ever sell this place I might well do.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Why did you not quote the part where I had stated that one doesn't have to
utilise a FENSA fee-paying member ? The requirement is to provide proof that
the 'new' doors meet the Building Regulations. FENSA members are 'trusted'
to provide self-certification services and assure the BCO that the
requirements have been met. You will, presumably, assure the BCO that your
doors meet _all_ the requirements? Will a Building Notice be required?

--

Brian

The message
from "Brian Sharrock" contains these words:

You will, presumably, assure the BCO that your
doors meet _all_ the requirements?

BCO not involved - it's a conservatory.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

And all I'm saying is that - according to the OP - there wasn't a door
there at all!

You have misread the OP. There were doors there originally. They have been
removed. It is my understanding that you may be able to replace them like
for like.

Christian.

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Brian Sharrock" contains these words:

You will, presumably, assure the BCO that your
doors meet _all_ the requirements?

BCO not involved - it's a conservatory.


Hmm ... it's an external door ...
quote

An external window or door is a 'controlled fitting' under the Building
Regulations, and so certain standards need to be met when an external window
or door is replaced.

/quote



Is the door there? Yes/No?

Is the door 'external' [within the meaning of the Act]? Yes/No?



Would you like to re-consider?



--

Brian

[Not paying any attention to the man who advocates paying no attention to
the man behind the curtain - who _may_ be a BCO].

On Oct 11, 7:16 pm, "Brian Sharrock" wrote:
"Christian McArdle" wrote in u.net...

Christian; the OP stated that s/he had removed the doors between the
house and a conservatory and was querying the requirement for a FENSA
certified 'Exterior grade' door to be replaced.

All I'm saying is that the OP may have the right to have an exterior door
that complied with the regulations at the time that the frame was
installed, so the existing wooden door may be OK as it might count as a
"repair".

Christian.

And all I'm saying is that - according to the OP - there wasn't a door there
at all!

Read it again. Quote from the OP "I had a conservatory built in 1998
and had existing wooden french windows between the house and the
conservatory".

All the OP needs to do is tell a little white lie and claim that he's
put the original french windows back as they were. Assuming the
Conservatory met all the relevant regs when it was built (with the
french windows in place) then it still does. Changes are not
retrospective. Taking the doors off for your own convenience/enjoyment
for 4 years does not alter anything. He may have taken them down to
repair them and just not got around to it until now ;-)

If the original situation didn't meet the regs then that's a different
matter.

MBQ

The message
from "Brian Sharrock" contains these words:

Would you like to re-consider?

Nope. I'm buggered if I'm contacting BC just to replace my back door.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:39:36 GMT, Brian Sharrock wrote:

BCO not involved - it's a conservatory.

Hmm ... it's an external door ...
quote
An external window or door is a 'controlled fitting' under the Building
Regulations, and so certain standards need to be met when an external
window or door is replaced.
/quote

Is the door there? Yes/No?

Is the door 'external' [within the meaning of the Act]? Yes/No?

Is the door being replaced or repaired?

ISTR that the OP said that when he took the door down the frame remained
in place. Thus the "door" has been "repaired" not "replaced". As has been
pointed out the current regulations don't apply retrospectivly. The only
gotcha I can see is if the *orginal* installation broke some rules.

Would you like to re-consider?

Would you?

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Christian McArdle Wrote:
And all I'm saying is that - according to the OP - there wasn't a door
-
there at all!-

You have misread the OP. There were doors there originally. They have
been
removed. It is my understanding that you may be able to replace them
like
for like.

Christian.


Yes, I did have external french window style doors in place originally
when the conservatory was built. I removed them 2 years later but left
the frame in place as I intended to put them back in the winter.
However, we never bothered putting them back and a friend purchased
them for his house.

All I needed to do was replace like for like but because they had glass
panels I was told that they had to be FENSA compliant as they were new
doors. If I still had the original doors it wouldn't have been a
problem as they pre-dated the FENSA requirement and I could quite
legitimately put them back.

The problem with the new doors was that the glass, although toughened
safety glass did not meet the FENSA standard for energy saving and if I
had got the BCO involved they would have said as much and told me to
change them. I could have had wooden french windows made with double
glazed panels to comply, but time and finances were against this option
as we need to complete by next week or I may lose the house I am
buying.

Archie




--
archie2000

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:39:36 GMT, Brian Sharrock wrote:

BCO not involved - it's a conservatory.

Hmm ... it's an external door ...
quote
An external window or door is a 'controlled fitting' under the Building
Regulations, and so certain standards need to be met when an external
window or door is replaced.
/quote

Is the door there? Yes/No?

Is the door 'external' [within the meaning of the Act]? Yes/No?

Is the door being replaced or repaired?

ISTR that the OP said that when he took the door down the frame remained
in place. Thus the "door" has been "repaired" not "replaced". As has been
pointed out the current regulations don't apply retrospectivly. The only
gotcha I can see is if the *orginal* installation broke some rules.

Would you like to re-consider?

Would you?

You haven't answered the questions posed; - is there a door and is the door
external.

Can you _prove_ that the original doors are extant, perhaps propped up
behind the sofa, or have they disappeared? If this was truly a 'frames
remained in place' situation and there's frames with hinge cut-outs, an
external door step, door jambs, etc. etc. then IMHO there wouldn't have been
a problem.
As the OP didn't/couldn't 'repair' the doors then s/he seems - in his/hers
words- needed a 'FENSA' certified 'replacement'.

Any: who cares what the OP did/did not get up to living in this house with a
'conservatory' and no external quality door between the glazed area and his
house?
Surely the point about this newsgroup is about learning how ot
'Do-it-Yourself-_properly_' and not how to botch around the regulations?

--

Brian

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:49:43 GMT, Brian Sharrock wrote:

Is the door there? Yes/No?

Is the door 'external' [within the meaning of the Act]? Yes/No?

Is the door being replaced or repaired?

You haven't answered the questions posed; - is there a door and is the
door external.

OK so perhaps for the pedants my question "Is the door being replaced or
repaired?" should have come before the other two. AIUI repair does not
come under BCO or FENSA.

If this was truly a 'frames remained in place' situation and there's
frames with hinge cut-outs, an external door step, door jambs, etc.
etc. then IMHO there wouldn't have been a problem.

Perzackerly.

As the OP didn't/couldn't 'repair' the doors then s/he seems - in
his/hers words- needed a 'FENSA' certified 'replacement'.

It's only the buyers solicitor that is wanting a silly bit of paper, on
being told the the doors in question are "new". This solicitor needs the
regulations explaining to him. Being of the legal profession I doubt he
would have any trouble what so ever understanding the requirement to
examine the minutae carefully to come to the right conclusion. B-)

Surely the point about this newsgroup is about learning how ot
Do-it-Yourself-_properly_' and not how to botch around the regulations?

IMHO the point of the group is the free and frank exchnage of ideas. And
highlighting how daft and ill thought through some of the more recent
regulations are. This is not a botch around the regulations as the new
regulations, IMHO, don't apply as it is a repair. So what that they have
been off for a few years being repaired, there are jobs here I started a
few years back, still to be finished. They will be, one day.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:21:32 +0100, archie2000 wrote:

All I needed to do was replace like for like but because they had glass
panels I was told that they had to be FENSA compliant as they were new
doors.

Is this because the person you talked to interpreted "new doors" to mean
frames the lot? Such an interprtation would mean FENSA/BCO etc.

But you kept the old ones in the garage and the roof leaked and they
rotted a bit and when you oveshot reversing in one night you cracked both
across the middle... SO you had to get "new doors" but they are repairs
not replacements. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Brian Sharrock Wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...-
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:39:36 GMT, Brian Sharrock wrote:
--
BCO not involved - it's a conservatory.-

Hmm ... it's an external door ...
quote
An external window or door is a 'controlled fitting' under the
Building
Regulations, and so certain standards need to be met when an external
window or door is replaced.
/quote

Is the door there? Yes/No?

Is the door 'external' [within the meaning of the Act]? Yes/No?-

Is the door being replaced or repaired?

ISTR that the OP said that when he took the door down the frame
remained
in place. Thus the "door" has been "repaired" not "replaced". As has
been
pointed out the current regulations don't apply retrospectivly. The
only
gotcha I can see is if the *orginal* installation broke some rules.
-
Would you like to re-consider?-

Would you?-

You haven't answered the questions posed; - is there a door and is the
door
external.

Can you _prove_ that the original doors are extant, perhaps propped up

behind the sofa, or have they disappeared? If this was truly a 'frames

remained in place' situation and there's frames with hinge cut-outs, an

external door step, door jambs, etc. etc. then IMHO there wouldn't have
been
a problem.
As the OP didn't/couldn't 'repair' the doors then s/he seems - in
his/hers
words- needed a 'FENSA' certified 'replacement'.

Any: who cares what the OP did/did not get up to living in this house
with a
'conservatory' and no external quality door between the glazed area and
his
house?
Surely the point about this newsgroup is about learning how ot
'Do-it-Yourself-_properly_' and not how to botch around the
regulations?

--

Brian

Guys

Can we put it to bed now please.

I am having FENSA approved doors fitted by a registered company so that
it complies with not only the purchasers solicitors requests but also
with Building Regs. Without them and the FENSA certificate I cannot
sell the house.

I quote from the National Replacement Windows Advisory Service web
site;
"This certificate is vitally important to any future sale of the
property, as without it, sales will be at least held up or at worst
unable to proceed. At the point of pre-sale contract, purchasers
Solicitors will have to include this documentation in their usual
search procedures."

Thanks once again for all replies, both constructive and opinionated.

Cheers
Archie




--
archie2000

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 22:06:04 +0100, archie2000
m wrote:

I quote from the National Replacement Windows Advisory Service web
site;
"This certificate is vitally important to any future sale of the
property, as without it, sales will be at least held up or at worst
unable to proceed. At the point of pre-sale contract, purchasers
Solicitors will have to include this documentation in their usual
search procedures."

"National Replacement Windows Advisory Service"?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Obviously a perfect place to go for an unbiased view, you just wasted
a few more of the earths resources just to get a bleeding bit of paper
that means f*ck all.

Of course, without the dumbass solicitor predicting doom and the end
of life as we know it because of a missing fensa certificate things
could be different.

The buyer might have half a clue and tell his solicitor to **** off
arsing around and tell him to proceed as he couldn't give a flying
f*ck what bleeding windows it has or hasn't got.

The buyer might have the common sense to not insist the vendor gets
some stupid liability insurance that has so many exclusion clauses it
resembles the england manager excuses list crossed with the Tokyo
phone book.

Anyway if the buyer complains this far down the line the vendor just
might leave a 2ft turd on the hot water tank and a dozen ripe kippers
under the floorboards.

The buyer almost certainly won't like the windows you bought and will
rip them off and chuck them into a skip the first week they move in.

Hope you can sleep at night you planet destroyer.


--