I have a 1950s German slide projector (anyone remember slides?) which
I have been using with its German mains plug and an adaptor.

I decided to replace the plug with a UK 13A plug. Having removed the
German plug, I cannot remember which wire went were, and the colour
coding is unfamiliar to me.

There are three wires, coloured red, black and light grey. Can anyone
tell me which is which? I guessed at

red = live
black = neutral

but is the grey wire really the earth?

Definitive advice will be very much appreciated!

Tony Polson wrote:

I have a 1950s German slide projector (anyone remember slides?) which
I have been using with its German mains plug and an adaptor.

I decided to replace the plug with a UK 13A plug. Having removed the
German plug, I cannot remember which wire went were, and the colour
coding is unfamiliar to me.

There are three wires, coloured red, black and light grey. Can anyone
tell me which is which? I guessed at

red = live
black = neutral

but is the grey wire really the earth?

Definitive advice will be very much appreciated!

a multimeter will tell you which is which in no time.

NT

In article ,
Tony Polson wrote:
I have a 1950s German slide projector (anyone remember slides?) which
I have been using with its German mains plug and an adaptor.

I decided to replace the plug with a UK 13A plug. Having removed the
German plug, I cannot remember which wire went were, and the colour
coding is unfamiliar to me.

There are three wires, coloured red, black and light grey. Can anyone
tell me which is which? I guessed at

red = live
black = neutral

but is the grey wire really the earth?

Definitive advice will be very much appreciated!

I'd really not guess about this.

Black used to be line on continental stuff with light blue as neutral.

The only safe way is to check with a DVM for a *dead short* between
exposed metalwork and one of the wires which should then be earth. Or
better still, open up the device and check physically. And replace the
flex while you're at it with the correct modern stuff.

The earth should be obvious as it will be connected to the metalwork. The
line will go to the switch if a single pole type.

--
*If all is not lost, where the hell is it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The message
from Tony Polson contains these words:

Definitive advice will be very much appreciated!

Definitely take the projector apart and see where the wires go.

Unless things are very different from my expectation, the live will go
to the switch, the neutral to the other side of the
bulb/fan/transformer/whatever, and the earth to the chassis.

A clear photo of the gizzards macht alles klaar, yah?

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On 4 Oct 2006 16:53:45 -0700, wrote:

|Tony Polson wrote:
|
| I have a 1950s German slide projector (anyone remember slides?) which
| I have been using with its German mains plug and an adaptor.
|
| I decided to replace the plug with a UK 13A plug. Having removed the
| German plug, I cannot remember which wire went were, and the colour
| coding is unfamiliar to me.
|
| There are three wires, coloured red, black and light grey. Can anyone
| tell me which is which? I guessed at
|
| red = live
| black = neutral
|
| but is the grey wire really the earth?
|
| Definitive advice will be very much appreciated!
|
|a multimeter will tell you which is which in no time.

The switch should be in the *live* wire.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

"Tony Polson" wrote in message
...
I have a 1950s German slide projector (anyone remember slides?) which
I have been using with its German mains plug and an adaptor.

I decided to replace the plug with a UK 13A plug. Having removed the
German plug, I cannot remember which wire went were, and the colour
coding is unfamiliar to me.

There are three wires, coloured red, black and light grey. Can anyone
tell me which is which? I guessed at

red = live
black = neutral

DANGER DANGER DANGER
Some german appliances of that era had RED =EARTH and caused death when
imported into the UK and the earth was connected to live. This was one of
many reasons why we now have common wireing colours....

In article ,
James Salisbury wrote:
DANGER DANGER DANGER Some german appliances of that era had RED =EARTH
and caused death when imported into the UK and the earth was connected
to live. This was one of many reasons why we now have common wireing
colours....

Yes. FWIW, some German cars used red for the negative or ground - the
exact opposite of UK practice.

It's what annoys me when the objectors to unified colours throughout the
EU go on about the 'instinctive' old colours. There's no such thing.

--
*Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tony Polson wrote:

red = live

NO, NO, NO. RED was EARTH - definitely. Obvious danger lurks...
Now you see why harmonisation of colours was such a good idea.

black = neutral

Black is live, I think.

but is the grey wire really the earth?

Grey for neutral

Definitive advice will be very much appreciated!

I'm not 100% sure about the last two, but RED IS DEFINITELY EARTH.

--
Andy

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tony Polson wrote:
I have a 1950s German slide projector (anyone remember slides?) which
I have been using with its German mains plug and an adaptor.

I decided to replace the plug with a UK 13A plug. Having removed the
German plug, I cannot remember which wire went were, and the colour
coding is unfamiliar to me.

There are three wires, coloured red, black and light grey. Can anyone
tell me which is which? I guessed at

red = live
black = neutral

but is the grey wire really the earth?

Definitive advice will be very much appreciated!

I'd really not guess about this.

Black used to be line on continental stuff with light blue as neutral.

The only safe way is to check with a DVM for a *dead short* between
exposed metalwork and one of the wires which should then be earth. Or
better still, open up the device and check physically. And replace the
flex while you're at it with the correct modern stuff.

The earth should be obvious as it will be connected to the metalwork. The
line will go to the switch if a single pole type.


My advice also.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
James Salisbury wrote:
DANGER DANGER DANGER Some german appliances of that era had RED =EARTH
and caused death when imported into the UK and the earth was connected
to live. This was one of many reasons why we now have common wireing
colours....

Yes. FWIW, some German cars used red for the negative or ground - the
exact opposite of UK practice.

It's what annoys me when the objectors to unified colours throughout the
EU go on about the 'instinctive' old colours. There's no such thing.

OTOH: 'Human Factor Engineers/industrial Physiologists do know about what is
'instinctive', or at least inculturated, for the 'majority' of people.
'Righty-Tighty ~ Lefty-Loosey'; Red -danger ; Clockwise-more,
Anti-Clockwise~less;
works for we acculturated folks in the UK. Having to bow-down to the
dictates of an unelected bunch of Eurocrats dreaming up directives 'to work
towards a more integrated Europe' is really 'what annoys me' (to quote your
words).

BTW; AIUI the EU bureaucracy will not employ people born _before_ the
establishment of its predecessor(s) [Application forms bear a statement to
that effect].
"It's what annoys me" that people with a earlier date-of-birth are presumed
to be objectors "throughout the EU"

--

Brian

"James Salisbury" wrote in message
...

"Tony Polson" wrote in message
...
I have a 1950s German slide projector (anyone remember slides?) which
I have been using with its German mains plug and an adaptor.

I decided to replace the plug with a UK 13A plug. Having removed the
German plug, I cannot remember which wire went were, and the colour
coding is unfamiliar to me.

There are three wires, coloured red, black and light grey. Can anyone
tell me which is which? I guessed at

red = live
black = neutral

DANGER DANGER DANGER
Some german appliances of that era had RED =EARTH and caused death when
imported into the UK and the earth was connected to live. This was one of
many reasons why we now have common wireing colours....

Yes - I recall in my teens I had probably the closest call when I had wired
up a radio and whilst wondering why it wasn't working I touched the case and
a metal socket on a wander lead. RCDs weren't heard of then!

Owain wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Yes. FWIW, some German cars used red for the negative or ground - the
exact opposite of UK practice.
It's what annoys me when the objectors to unified colours throughout the
EU go on about the 'instinctive' old colours. There's no such thing.

I think those people mean that *our* colours were "instinctive". What
those Jerries think is another thing entirely.

Owain


well are they?

Ive seen plenty of red earth in my time, and brown. Don't even have to
go further than Devon. Most earth is brown or black. Never seen any
green earth.

And as far as blue being a neutral colour. Not anywhere I've ever been.
Its usually the colour of some political faction or other.

The message
from "Brian Sharrock" contains these words:

Clockwise-more, Anti-Clockwise~less;

The opposite of taps then.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The message
from "Brian Sharrock" contains these words:

BTW; AIUI the EU bureaucracy will not employ people born _before_ the
establishment of its predecessor(s) [Application forms bear a statement to
that effect].

I'd doubt that'd stand up in court.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On 2006-10-05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ive seen plenty of red earth in my time, and brown. Don't even have to
go further than Devon. Most earth is brown or black. Never seen any
green earth.

But the *covering* is green.

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
James Salisbury wrote:
DANGER DANGER DANGER Some german appliances of that era had RED =EARTH
and caused death when imported into the UK and the earth was connected
to live. This was one of many reasons why we now have common wireing
colours....

Yes. FWIW, some German cars used red for the negative or ground - the
exact opposite of UK practice.

It's what annoys me when the objectors to unified colours throughout the
EU go on about the 'instinctive' old colours. There's no such thing.

OTOH: 'Human Factor Engineers/industrial Physiologists do know about what
is 'instinctive', or at least inculturated, for the 'majority' of people.
'Righty-Tighty ~ Lefty-Loosey'; Red -danger ; Clockwise-more,
Anti-Clockwise~less;
works for we acculturated folks in the UK. Having to bow-down to the
dictates of an unelected bunch of Eurocrats dreaming up directives 'to
work towards a more integrated Europe' is really 'what annoys me' (to
quote your words).

BTW; AIUI the EU bureaucracy will not employ people born _before_ the
establishment of its predecessor(s) [Application forms bear a statement to
that effect].
"It's what annoys me" that people with a earlier date-of-birth are
presumed to be objectors "throughout the EU"

Where on earth do people get stuff like this from - I have in the past
looked at EU job application forms, and no such statement was made. No such
statement is made on current forms, and any such practice would contradict
EU's own regulations on discrimination. Just because you read it in the
Daily Mail doesn't make it true.

Bureauocracies of all sorts do all sorts of dumb things. Harmonising colours
in potentially lethal electrical wiring would seem to be one of their more
sensible activities

Andy

I have a 1993 German book for d-i-y that shows a table for wire colors of
old and new wiring. Black was and is always live. Neutral and earth weren't
always a specific color-- they could have been light grey, beige, white or
red. Our house was built in 1961 and has all of them.

Today black is live, blue is neutral and green-yellow striped is earth.

Andy Wade wrote:

Tony Polson wrote:

red = live

NO, NO, NO. RED was EARTH - definitely. Obvious danger lurks...
Now you see why harmonisation of colours was such a good idea.

black = neutral

Black is live, I think.

but is the grey wire really the earth?

Grey for neutral

Definitive advice will be very much appreciated!

I'm not 100% sure about the last two, but RED IS DEFINITELY EARTH.


Thanks Andy. You're right, the red is definitely the earth. The red
wire is clearly earthed to the metal chassis of the projector.

There is an in-line switch in the cable so I thought I would open it
up to see which of the other colour wires was switched, implying that
it would be the live wire. The good news was that the red wire was
connected to a chromed brass plate around the bakelite switch, further
confirming that it is the earth, and that one conductor was switched
and the other not. So far so good.

Unfortunately the bad news is that the unswitched conductor is
connected to the black wire at one end of the switch and the grey wire
at the other. wry grin This presumably didn't matter in Germany as
the plug could be inserted either way up. But it matters here, so I
will borrow a multimeter and check which colour wire is the live feed
to the lamp.

Thanks to everyone who replied.

In article ,
Brian Sharrock wrote:
It's what annoys me when the objectors to unified colours throughout
the EU go on about the 'instinctive' old colours. There's no such
thing.

OTOH: 'Human Factor Engineers/industrial Physiologists do know about
what is 'instinctive', or at least inculturated, for the 'majority' of
people. 'Righty-Tighty ~ Lefty-Loosey'; Red -danger ; Clockwise-more,
Anti-Clockwise~less; works for we acculturated folks in the UK. Having
to bow-down to the dictates of an unelected bunch of Eurocrats dreaming
up directives 'to work towards a more integrated Europe' is really
'what annoys me' (to quote your words).

So you don't think unified wiring colours throughout the EU a good idea?

But if you did how then do you get round the fact the that Germany
apparently thought red the best colour for a safety wire while the UK
chose green? Red may mean danger in most countries, but then the
'dangerous' wire to get wrong on a three wire appliance is the earth - not
the other two. And don't let's forget red is the least visible colour to
man in general - and even more so if you're partially colour blind. So it
wasn't chosen with science but merely became the convention - why, I don't
know. And I'd guess the same with threads and clocks.

BTW; AIUI the EU bureaucracy will not employ people born _before_ the
establishment of its predecessor(s) [Application forms bear a statement
to that effect]. "It's what annoys me" that people with a earlier
date-of-birth are presumed to be objectors "throughout the EU"

Strange, given the main idea of the original 'common market' was to
prevent wars between the likely members which had occurred rather too
frequently in the past.

--
*A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy McKenzie wrote:
Harmonising colours in potentially lethal electrical wiring would seem
to be one of their more sensible activities

As would a unified currency - if it weren't for big business making money
out of different ones.

--
*7up is good for you, signed snow white*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Adam Funk wrote:
Ive seen plenty of red earth in my time, and brown. Don't even have to
go further than Devon. Most earth is brown or black. Never seen any
green earth.

But the *covering* is green.

There you go. What's 'logical' to one isn't to another.

Most earth varies around the brown end of the colour scale - certainly not
green. Of course other English speaking countries call the safety
connection 'ground'. Dunno what it's called in other languages.

--
*I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...
On 2006-10-05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ive seen plenty of red earth in my time, and brown. Don't even have to
go further than Devon. Most earth is brown or black. Never seen any
green earth.

But the *covering* is green.

Well in that case the terminal should be marked "Grass" (to be instictive).
Had not brown been snaffled for live it would have been just as instinctive
for earth. Black is more instinctive for neutral and red is for danger
innit?


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Brian Sharrock" contains these words:

Clockwise-more, Anti-Clockwise~less;

The opposite of taps then.

Ah he did say "righty-tighty, lefty loosey" which (sort of) covers taps but
just shows that the reminders are contradictory so it's all bockolls.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"MB" wrote in
:

I have a 1993 German book for d-i-y that shows a table for wire colors
of old and new wiring. Black was and is always live. Neutral and
earth weren't always a specific color-- they could have been light
grey, beige, white or red. Our house was built in 1961 and has all of
them.

Today black is live, blue is neutral and green-yellow striped is
earth.

How come the Germans haven't joined in the "unified" colour coding then?

Are all European nations not so equal?

mike

The message
from Tony Polson contains these words:

Thanks Andy. You're right, the red is definitely the earth. The red
wire is clearly earthed to the metal chassis of the projector.

If you're not doing a museum quality restoration I'd be tempted to
replace the mains lead completely with a modern standard one so some
other poor sod doesn't come unstuck at a later date.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On 2006-10-05 14:39:56 +0100, Huge said:

On 2006-10-05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy McKenzie wrote:
Harmonising colours in potentially lethal electrical wiring would seem
to be one of their more sensible activities

As would a unified currency - if it weren't for big business making money
out of different ones.

That is wrong in *so* many ways ...

The main resisters were National Governments who didn't want to lose
control of their economies.

Most multinationals would be glad to see the back of national currencies.

Mainly true apart from currency traders and the exchange places in the
airports.

Still, there's always John 2: 13-16.......

In article ,
Huge wrote:
As would a unified currency - if it weren't for big business making
money out of different ones.

That is wrong in *so* many ways ...

The main resisters were National Governments who didn't want to lose
control of their economies.

Most multinationals would be glad to see the back of national currencies.

They might be - but in the UK big business means the financial
institutions.

--
*Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
mike wrote:
I have a 1993 German book for d-i-y that shows a table for wire colors
of old and new wiring. Black was and is always live. Neutral and
earth weren't always a specific color-- they could have been light
grey, beige, white or red. Our house was built in 1961 and has all of
them.

Today black is live, blue is neutral and green-yellow striped is
earth.

How come the Germans haven't joined in the "unified" colour coding then?

Are all European nations not so equal?

For permanent wiring I'd guess they have recently - same as us.

--
*Never test the depth of the water with both feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2006-10-05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Ive seen plenty of red earth in my time, and brown. Don't even have to
go further than Devon. Most earth is brown or black. Never seen any
green earth.

But the *covering* is green.

There you go. What's 'logical' to one isn't to another.

Most earth varies around the brown end of the colour scale - certainly not
green.

Copper-coloured wire with a green cover and reddish-brown dirt with a
green cover --- the comparison makes sense to me.

Of course 2/3 of the earth is covered with water, but I don't
recommend this as an electrical technique.


Of course other English speaking countries call the safety
connection 'ground'. Dunno what it's called in other languages.

Green, grass, ground.

;-)

mike wrote:

How come the Germans haven't joined in the "unified" colour coding then?

The have so far as flexible cord colours are concerned. TTBOMK that's
been fully harmonised since around 1970. Harmonisation of colours for
fixed wiring has taken much longer and until earlier this year the UK
was odd-man-out in allowing black for neutral. The situation now is
that all EU member states use blue for neutral and green/yellow for
protective earth. The colours for the three "live" phases varies, with
some states using three browns, some three blacks and some brown for L1
and two blacks for L2 and L3. Rather oddly Germany uses black, brown,
black for L1, L2, L3 respectively and thus black for the "live" in
single-phase installations.

One reason for the delay in the UK coming into line was that our
national standards committee wanted to preserve the use of three
distinct phase colours, so that the phase sequence was clear from the
wiring colours alone. As we all know they succeeded and BS 7671 now
requires brown, black, grey.

There's a summary of phase colours by country in this document:
http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/Impact_2004.pdf

--
Andy

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2006-10-05, Brian Sharrock wrote:


BTW; AIUI the EU bureaucracy will not employ people born _before_ the
establishment of its predecessor(s) [Application forms bear a statement
to
that effect].

Surely this is against the EU's own legislation?

It might be, it might not be .... however it's policy. {I recall, dimly,
seeing an advert for a Brussels job for which I (IMHO) was qualified ... the
application form had a statement to the effect ; "Applicants born before
dd/mm/yyyy will not be considered", I mentioned it en-passant to my MP who
shrugged with a 'c'est le vie', some might say Gallic, gesture!}

Votre ami

--

Brian

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Owain wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Yes. FWIW, some German cars used red for the negative or ground - the
exact opposite of UK practice.
It's what annoys me when the objectors to unified colours throughout the
EU go on about the 'instinctive' old colours. There's no such thing.

I think those people mean that *our* colours were "instinctive". What
those Jerries think is another thing entirely.

Owain


well are they?

Ive seen plenty of red earth in my time, and brown. Don't even have to go
further than Devon. Most earth is brown or black. Never seen any green
earth.

And as far as blue being a neutral colour. Not anywhere I've ever been.
Its usually the colour of some political faction or other.

Consider; the UNO (or as the francophone say; ONU) utilises blue as the
ground for its flag; signifying neutrality. Can one assume that the
significance eluded you?

--

Brian

Andy Wade wrote in
:

mike wrote:

How come the Germans haven't joined in the "unified" colour coding then?

The have so far as flexible cord colours are concerned. TTBOMK that's
been fully harmonised since around 1970. Harmonisation of colours for
fixed wiring has taken much longer and until earlier this year the UK
was odd-man-out in allowing black for neutral.

snip info

Ow - a bit more to it than I'd realised Thanx

mike