I would be very grateful for feedback on a quote we have received from
British Gas. We are a family of 4 (2 kids under 5) who live in an
average sized semi. Virtually every day we have a couple of showers and
a small bath for the kids. We have a cold feed dishwasher and washing
mashing so have little need for hot water throughout the day.

We have an 'Ideal Mexico' boiler which is (I think) coming to the end
of it's life (needs a new pump at least). The boiler is in the kitchen
with a vent on the outside wall at waist height - British Gas told us
this was now illegal as it should be head height or above. The position
of this vent is a pain - it's ugly and exhausts back into the kitchen
via the only window we can open.

British Gas have tested our water pressure and told us it is very good
(can't remember the stat). Based on all we have told them they have
recommended replacing the boiler with a Bosch combination which they
would put in the airing cupboard (1st floor, which has gas to it due to
concrete floors on ground level). They would remove the hot water tank
and make good. This sounds good to us as it will give us an extra
cupboard and get rid of this vent which they would brick up and make
good. A combination boiler also appeals as it should reduce our bills
and not having to worry about 'putting the water on' will be a bonus.

The quote includes 9 thermostatic valves for radiators as we have a
nightmare balancing temperatures round the house. It also includes a
Mira gravity feed shower and fitting (our existing power shower is
broken anyway).

The quote is just under £4,000 including one year of care. I would be
very grateful for a sanity check on the above and a comment on the
value for money (or otherwise!) of the quote.

We have accepted as their £400 discount deal (e.g. quote was £4,400)
expired on the day the salesman came round (bonus!), but we still have
the right to cancel.

Thank you very much.

James

JAmes,

The £400 discount never ends, they are just trying to suck you. Get an
alternative quote from a local gas engineer for a comparison and then make
you mind up.

Regards

Steve

"James" wrote in message
oups.com...

snip

The quote is just under £4,000 including one year of care. I would be
very grateful for a sanity check on the above and a comment on the
value for money (or otherwise!) of the quote.

To compare - same work as you are suggesting minus the shower, but including
the fitting of 4 new radiators, but using a Baxi Platinum boiler with 5yr
warranty - and some anciallry works elsewhere came in at £2500 for us. The
other places quote £3300-3600.

Cheers
Dan.

"James" wrote in message
oups.com...
I would be very grateful for feedback on a quote we have received from
British Gas. We are a family of 4 (2 kids under 5) who live in an
average sized semi. Virtually every day we have a couple of showers and
a small bath for the kids. We have a cold feed dishwasher and washing
mashing so have little need for hot water throughout the day.

We have an 'Ideal Mexico' boiler which is (I think) coming to the end
of it's life (needs a new pump at least). The boiler is in the kitchen
with a vent on the outside wall at waist height - British Gas told us
this was now illegal as it should be head height or above. The position
of this vent is a pain - it's ugly and exhausts back into the kitchen
via the only window we can open.

British Gas have tested our water pressure and told us it is very good
(can't remember the stat). Based on all we have told them they have
recommended replacing the boiler with a Bosch combination which they
would put in the airing cupboard (1st floor, which has gas to it due to
concrete floors on ground level). They would remove the hot water tank
and make good. This sounds good to us as it will give us an extra
cupboard and get rid of this vent which they would brick up and make
good. A combination boiler also appeals as it should reduce our bills
and not having to worry about 'putting the water on' will be a bonus.

The quote includes 9 thermostatic valves for radiators as we have a
nightmare balancing temperatures round the house. It also includes a
Mira gravity feed shower and fitting (our existing power shower is
broken anyway).

The quote is just under £4,000 including one year of care. I would be
very grateful for a sanity check on the above and a comment on the
value for money (or otherwise!) of the quote.

We have accepted as their £400 discount deal (e.g. quote was £4,400)
expired on the day the salesman came round (bonus!), but we still have
the right to cancel.

Thank you very much.

James

You can pick up a top spec, fantastically economical Greenstar 35CDi
Worcester bosch combi boiler for around a grand-

http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/s...tar_35CDI.html

Shouldn't take a plumber more that 3 days tops(if he's very slow) to do the
work. So in all I'd be looking at £1600 tops all in.

Steve

"James" wrote in message
oups.com...
I would be very grateful for feedback on a quote we have received from
British Gas. We are a family of 4 (2 kids under 5) who live in an
average sized semi. Virtually every day we have a couple of showers and
a small bath for the kids. We have a cold feed dishwasher and washing
mashing so have little need for hot water throughout the day.

We have an 'Ideal Mexico' boiler which is (I think) coming to the end
of it's life (needs a new pump at least). The boiler is in the kitchen
with a vent on the outside wall at waist height - British Gas told us
this was now illegal as it should be head height or above. The position
of this vent is a pain - it's ugly and exhausts back into the kitchen
via the only window we can open.

British Gas have tested our water pressure and told us it is very good
(can't remember the stat). Based on all we have told them they have
recommended replacing the boiler with a Bosch combination which they
would put in the airing cupboard (1st floor, which has gas to it due to
concrete floors on ground level). They would remove the hot water tank
and make good. This sounds good to us as it will give us an extra
cupboard and get rid of this vent which they would brick up and make
good. A combination boiler also appeals as it should reduce our bills
and not having to worry about 'putting the water on' will be a bonus.

The quote includes 9 thermostatic valves for radiators as we have a
nightmare balancing temperatures round the house. It also includes a
Mira gravity feed shower and fitting (our existing power shower is
broken anyway).

The quote is just under £4,000 including one year of care. I would be
very grateful for a sanity check on the above and a comment on the
value for money (or otherwise!) of the quote.

We have accepted as their £400 discount deal (e.g. quote was £4,400)
expired on the day the salesman came round (bonus!), but we still have
the right to cancel.

Thank you very much.

James

__________________________________________________ ____________

We had (last year) an Alpha CD32C condensing combi and 7 rads with
thermostatic valves and a 7-day Wireless EasyStat installed. Along with that
the guy also installed a gas hob (that we provided) and did the "wet"
plumbing in the litchen.

He also removed and made good three old gas fires and supplied and fitted 2
new ones, as well as supplying and fitting a new toilet and basin and
plumbing in a new electric shower and piping an existing bath - total cost
£3612.

That was at my mothers house - we've just had a new central heating system
fitted (same boiler and stat) with 7 rads and thermostatic valves and a
Myson KickSpace heater in the kitchen. Cost £3500 - apparently because of
the price of copper now.

John.

Think about the components of the job:

New Boiler less than £1K
Radstats less than £10 each

Labour, locally arranged - say £200 a day,
certainly max outside London.

Misc pipes/pumps/etc

£2000 to £3000 top wack...

When I challenged a BG salesrep over his £2.5k (post "disacount")
for a straight-foward boiler replace quote, he said,
"Well, we're very big company with huge overheads, lots of directors
etc.
that's why we have to charge so much".

(Fat lot of good all that stuff is to Jo-punter!)

Don't touch them. Ask around, find a local, decent Corgi-reg'd
bloke or blokette who comes with warm recommendations from folks you
trust.
Discuss options, ask for how the costs build up and how you can get
best value by choosing the right options.
(If you can't have a grown up discuss, then your local man is as
bad a tosser than the BG-rep).

The saddest thing is that if BG get your business, they
will sub to local chaps, (nothing wrong with that), except, they'll
add their mega margin on top, hence their mega-prices.

Why are BG the most expensive suppiers of Gas, too?
Overheads, as well, perhaps?

EP

On 2006-08-27 21:58:55 +0100, said:

Think about the components of the job:

New Boiler less than £1K
Radstats less than £10 each

Labour, locally arranged - say £200 a day,
certainly max outside London.

Misc pipes/pumps/etc

£2000 to £3000 top wack...

When I challenged a BG salesrep over his £2.5k (post "disacount")
for a straight-foward boiler replace quote, he said,
"Well, we're very big company with huge overheads, lots of directors
etc.
that's why we have to charge so much".

Well at least he was honest.




(Fat lot of good all that stuff is to Jo-punter!)

Don't touch them. Ask around, find a local, decent Corgi-reg'd
bloke or blokette who comes with warm recommendations from folks you
trust.
Discuss options, ask for how the costs build up and how you can get
best value by choosing the right options.
(If you can't have a grown up discuss, then your local man is as
bad a tosser than the BG-rep).

The saddest thing is that if BG get your business, they
will sub to local chaps, (nothing wrong with that), except, they'll
add their mega margin on top, hence their mega-prices.

Why are BG the most expensive suppiers of Gas, too?
Overheads, as well, perhaps?

Why does a dog lick its balls?

The point is that there are still a lot of people who feel a degree of
security from dealing with "the gas board"

This is called branding by the marketeers.

If they can can make a good margin with this, do you imagine that they
would walk away angst-ridden with guilt?

It's "free" money until enough customers realise that they can obtain
the same things elsewhere. Nice while you can get it.

Of course the challenge will come when people do realise that they are
being taken for a ride. Then the advertising campaigns like "Mrs.
Jones' Pump" will be run more often on the TV. Some will feel cosy
again for a while. So it goes on.

In responce to the original poster.
It's just a question of taking the time and shopping around.
A relative has been looking for a new boiler to relace his old back
boiler,One plumber wanted to install a combi, in a new position, at
the cost of a grand for labour only. Others sugested an open vented
system boiler. Some of the plumbers just didn't turn up.
In the end he found a guy to fit a megaflow with a sytem boiler. Run
22mm to the front door, change 8 radiators and supply a hot and cold
feed only for the bathroom, and hot to the sink. This is labour only,
but in London.£1100.
One thing though is that the place is vacant and all making good is to
be done by him. This is ok cause it will make for a neater job, i.e no
visible external pipes anywhere but muggins (me) will have to make
good.

In responce to the original poster.
It's just a question of taking the time and shopping around.
A relative has been looking for a new boiler to relace his old back
boiler,One plumber wanted to install a combi, in a new position, at
the cost of a grand for labour only. Others sugested an open vented
system boiler. Some of the plumbers just didn't turn up.
In the end he found a guy to fit a megaflow with a sytem boiler. Run
22mm to the front door, change 8 radiators and supply a hot and cold
feed only for the bathroom, and hot to the sink. This is labour only,
but in London.£1100.
One thing though is that the place is vacant and all making good is to
be done by him. This is ok cause it will make for a neater job, i.e no
visible external pipes anywhere but muggins (me) will have to make
good.

James wrote:
I would be very grateful for feedback on a quote we have received from
British Gas. We are a family of 4 (2 kids under 5) who live in an
average sized semi. Virtually every day we have a couple of showers and
a small bath for the kids. We have a cold feed dishwasher and washing
mashing so have little need for hot water throughout the day.

We have an 'Ideal Mexico' boiler which is (I think) coming to the end
of it's life (needs a new pump at least). The boiler is in the kitchen
with a vent on the outside wall at waist height - British Gas told us
this was now illegal as it should be head height or above. The position
of this vent is a pain - it's ugly and exhausts back into the kitchen
via the only window we can open.

British Gas have tested our water pressure and told us it is very good
(can't remember the stat). Based on all we have told them they have
recommended replacing the boiler with a Bosch combination which they
would put in the airing cupboard (1st floor, which has gas to it due to
concrete floors on ground level). They would remove the hot water tank
and make good. This sounds good to us as it will give us an extra
cupboard and get rid of this vent which they would brick up and make
good. A combination boiler also appeals as it should reduce our bills
and not having to worry about 'putting the water on' will be a bonus.

The quote includes 9 thermostatic valves for radiators as we have a
nightmare balancing temperatures round the house. It also includes a
Mira gravity feed shower and fitting (our existing power shower is
broken anyway).

The quote is just under £4,000 including one year of care. I would be
very grateful for a sanity check on the above and a comment on the
value for money (or otherwise!) of the quote.

We have accepted as their £400 discount deal (e.g. quote was £4,400)
expired on the day the salesman came round (bonus!), but we still have
the right to cancel.

Thank you very much.

James

we quoted for (and got the job) a chap we were recomended to. he wanted
a back boiler out and new combi in loft. no probs we said `anything
else??? rads he said, no probs. so he will be getting 4 new rads, new
trv's new boiler, old one out and all clean and tidy for when he returns
from hols. then when he does some other work we will be moving the pipes
we have installed in a cupboard to the new location for free. BG,
without rads came in at £4600, we have come in just shy of £3000 with
rads! and the boiler we are putting in exceeds BG's spec! worcester
bosch too!

Owain wrote:
James wrote:
We are a family of 4 (2 kids under 5) who live in an
average sized semi. Virtually every day we have a couple of showers and
a small bath for the kids. We have a cold feed dishwasher and washing
mashing so have little need for hot water throughout the day. ...
A combination boiler also appeals as it should reduce our bills
and not having to worry about 'putting the water on' will be a bonus.

I don't see that a combi will be *much* cheaper to run than a
well-insulated storage system and with proper controls you shouldn't
have to worry about 'putting the water on' anyway.

The quote includes 9 thermostatic valves for radiators as we have a
nightmare balancing temperatures round the house. It also includes a
Mira gravity feed shower and fitting (our existing power shower is
broken anyway).

If it's a comb it should be a mains pressure shower. Especially with
small children in the house you should ask specific questions about the
anti-scalding provisions of the proposed product.

The quote is just under £4,000 including one year of care. I would be
very grateful for a sanity check on the above and a comment on the
value for money (or otherwise!) of the quote.
We have accepted as their £400 discount deal (e.g. quote was £4,400)
expired on the day the salesman came round (bonus!), but we still have
the right to cancel.

BG are *always* expensive.

Owain

new condensers are around 90% efficient compared with older boilers,
especially open flued boilers which are around 60%

James wrote:

We have an 'Ideal Mexico' boiler which is (I think) coming to the end
of it's life (needs a new pump at least). The boiler is in the kitchen
with a vent on the outside wall at waist height - British Gas told us
this was now illegal as it should be head height or above. The position

Not sure it is illegal. It wil need to be guarded to make sure people
can't touch it and get burnt. It will also need to be far enough away
from opening windows.

British Gas have tested our water pressure and told us it is very good

Having enough pressure is only half the equation. You also need enough
flow rate and the two are not the same. If you time filling a bucket
from yout kitchen cold tap you should get a better idea. Anything less
than 20 litres per minute will start to be marginal with a combi boiler.

good. A combination boiler also appeals as it should reduce our bills
and not having to worry about 'putting the water on' will be a bonus.

*any* correctly installed system with decent controls, insulation and
timers will ensure the water is hot whenever you need it.

The quote includes 9 thermostatic valves for radiators as we have a
nightmare balancing temperatures round the house. It also includes a
Mira gravity feed shower and fitting (our existing power shower is
broken anyway).

You don't want a gravity fed shower on a mains pressure water system.

The quote is just under £4,000 including one year of care. I would be
very grateful for a sanity check on the above and a comment on the
value for money (or otherwise!) of the quote.

The system suggested sounds fine (except the shower) if you have the
cold water flow rate. The Price as ever with BG is well over the top.

However make sure the boiler has enough power to deliver a decent flow
rate of hot water. 35kW would be a good starting point. Stay well away
from the small 24kW units as these will make filling even a small bath
for the kids tedious.

We have accepted as their £400 discount deal (e.g. quote was £4,400)
expired on the day the salesman came round (bonus!),

Gosh that was a coincidense! Pity the poor soul the salesman goes to
see tommorow having to pay £400 more.... NOT!

but we still have
the right to cancel.

Get some other quotes PDQ, and be prepared to use that right!

(the work you have described is no more than five man days tops. The
hardware supplied will be less than £1500 (in fact probably less!) so a
total in the region of £2000 to £2750 does not sound unreasonable -
perhaps a few hundred more in London etc)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

James wrote:

I would be very grateful for feedback on a quote we have received from
British Gas. We are a family of 4 (2 kids under 5) who live in an
average sized semi. Virtually every day we have a couple of showers
and a small bath for the kids. We have a cold feed dishwasher and
washing mashing so have little need for hot water throughout the day.

We have an 'Ideal Mexico' boiler which is (I think) coming to the end
of it's life (needs a new pump at least). The boiler is in the kitchen
with a vent on the outside wall at waist height - British Gas told us
this was now illegal as it should be head height or above. The
position of this vent is a pain - it's ugly and exhausts back into
the kitchen via the only window we can open.

British Gas have tested our water pressure and told us it is very good
(can't remember the stat). Based on all we have told them they have
recommended replacing the boiler with a Bosch combination which they
would put in the airing cupboard (1st floor, which has gas to it due
to concrete floors on ground level). They would remove the hot water
tank and make good. This sounds good to us as it will give us an extra
cupboard and get rid of this vent which they would brick up and make
good. A combination boiler also appeals as it should reduce our bills
and not having to worry about 'putting the water on' will be a bonus.

The quote includes 9 thermostatic valves for radiators as we have a
nightmare balancing temperatures round the house. It also includes a
Mira gravity feed shower and fitting (our existing power shower is
broken anyway).

The quote is just under £4,000 including one year of care. I would be
very grateful for a sanity check on the above and a comment on the
value for money (or otherwise!) of the quote.

We have accepted as their £400 discount deal (e.g. quote was £4,400)
expired on the day the salesman came round (bonus!), but we still have
the right to cancel.

Thank you very much.

James

I've just a Baxi Combi Instant 105HE installed for £2400 including all
the pipe work

--
zaax

James wrote:

We have an 'Ideal Mexico' boiler which is (I think) coming to the end
of it's life (needs a new pump at least). The boiler is in the kitchen
...
recommended replacing the boiler with a Bosch combination which they
would put in the airing cupboard (1st floor, which has gas to it due to
...
The quote includes 9 thermostatic valves for radiators as we have a
nightmare balancing temperatures round the house. It also includes a
Mira gravity feed shower and fitting (our existing power shower is
broken anyway).
...
The quote is just under £4,000 including one year of care. I would be
very grateful for a sanity check on the above and a comment on the
value for money (or otherwise!) of the quote.

It's british gas, run away.
A year ago I had an Ideal Mexico replace by a Worcester-Bosch combi.
That was in a 2nd floor flat with very awkward acess to fit the flue, it
also required and upgrade of the gas pipe and more awkward work to
remove tanks and fit new radiators. Even in a central London location
the cost was significantly less than 3,000.

"James" wrote:
I would be very grateful for feedback on a quote we have received from
British Gas. We are a family of 4 (2 kids under 5) who live in an
average sized semi. Virtually every day we have a couple of showers and
a small bath for the kids. We have a cold feed dishwasher and washing
mashing so have little need for hot water throughout the day.

We have an 'Ideal Mexico' boiler which is (I think) coming to the end
of it's life (needs a new pump at least). The boiler is in the kitchen
with a vent on the outside wall at waist height - British Gas told us
this was now illegal as it should be head height or above. The position
of this vent is a pain - it's ugly and exhausts back into the kitchen
via the only window we can open.

British Gas have tested our water pressure and told us it is very good
(can't remember the stat). Based on all we have told them they have
recommended replacing the boiler with a Bosch combination which they
would put in the airing cupboard (1st floor, which has gas to it due to
concrete floors on ground level). They would remove the hot water tank
and make good. This sounds good to us as it will give us an extra
cupboard and get rid of this vent which they would brick up and make
good. A combination boiler also appeals as it should reduce our bills
and not having to worry about 'putting the water on' will be a bonus.

The quote includes 9 thermostatic valves for radiators as we have a
nightmare balancing temperatures round the house. It also includes a
Mira gravity feed shower and fitting (our existing power shower is
broken anyway).

The quote is just under £4,000 including one year of care. I would be
very grateful for a sanity check on the above and a comment on the
value for money (or otherwise!) of the quote.

We have accepted as their £400 discount deal (e.g. quote was £4,400)
expired on the day the salesman came round (bonus!), but we still have
the right to cancel.

Thank you very much.

James

[===================================]

It's incredible how these discount deals always expire on the day the
salesman comes round. A sprat to catch a mackerel springs to mind. The £400
for discount will have been added on to be knocked off later. Be aware that
of the 4 grand the salesman will be getting up to one grand. As with any
major item of household expenditure you should always get SEVERAL QUOTES. A
good plumbing/central heating firm will not have salesmen on fat commission,
will not indulge in sham discounts and will probably have a waiting list due
to the volume of work. Are you aware that much BG work is sub-contracted to
local plumbing firms?

On 2006-08-28 07:38:27 +0100, "Phil Anthropist"
said:



It's incredible how these discount deals always expire on the day the
salesman comes round. A sprat to catch a mackerel springs to mind. The
£400 for discount will have been added on to be knocked off later. Be
aware that of the 4 grand the salesman will be getting up to one grand.
As with any major item of household expenditure you should always get
SEVERAL QUOTES. A good plumbing/central heating firm will not have
salesmen on fat commission, will not indulge in sham discounts and will
probably have a waiting list due to the volume of work. Are you aware
that much BG work is sub-contracted to local plumbing firms?


While I don't hold any candle at all for BG or would suggest ever
buying anything from them, I think that your analysis is a little
extreme....

- Discount deals are the same as any other offer, such as three for the
price of two in the supermarket, January sales, ...... They are there
to incent the customer to buy.

- If they are there 100% of the time, it would be legitimate to say
that the discount amount was added on in the first place. If it's not
then the amount is in effect taken from gross margin on the deal.

- Having deals that are only available on the day is a way of getting
the customer to take an action on the day. It's rather naff in
concept, but it works. If the customer can be closed, he is less
likely to look at the competition and the salesman can move on to the
next opportunity. In principle this is not any different to any
other promotional pricing or sale - only the timescale is different.

- Do you have specific knowledge of BG's commission plans? It is
highly unlikely that the salesman would make £1000 on a £4000 sale
unless he is on commission only or an extremely small basic salary.Even
so, the figures don't stand scrutiny. The market price with a small
installer for this job appears to be in the £2500 to £3000 range. BG
is an enormous corporation with overheads to match. I think it is
highly unlikely that almost all the incremental amount over the market
rate would find its way into the salesman's pocket.

- A commission of 5-10% of the deal is much more typical for a part
salaried salesman in the consumer products and services sector.
Work out the numbers. Let's say the salesman makes 4 visits a day
with an average sale value of £3000. A 30% conversion rate is probably
about right for a branded service company like BG. At 48 working
weeks a year, this amounts to a revenue of £864000. A commission
rate of 25% would result in earnings of £216000 per annum. Somehow, I
think that's unlikely and an OTE of £50k or perhaps a little more is
much more likely, and hence the lower commission rate in tghe 5-10%
range - hardly fat.

- Now contrast with the sole trader. He also has to visit customers,
do quotes and win only a certain percentage of the business he quotes
for. His time is not free for doing this - it comes out of his gross
margin. In terms of proportion of time taken, and hence cost, it is
also likely to be in the 5-10% range. The customer pays for that just
in the same way as for a salesman's commission.

- I would agree with you that the good sole trader has plenty of work
and probably doesn't need to offer special deals to make business
happen at certain times.

So really, the reality of the comparison is that BG is a large
corporation which buys and sells services and makes a margin for doing
so. The difference in the price is all about feeding that.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2006-08-28 07:38:27 +0100, "Phil Anthropist"
said:



It's incredible how these discount deals always expire on the day the
salesman comes round. A sprat to catch a mackerel springs to mind. The
£400 for discount will have been added on to be knocked off later. Be
aware that of the 4 grand the salesman will be getting up to one
grand. As with any major item of household expenditure you should
always get SEVERAL QUOTES. A good plumbing/central heating firm will
not have salesmen on fat commission, will not indulge in sham
discounts and will probably have a waiting list due to the volume of
work. Are you aware that much BG work is sub-contracted to local
plumbing firms?


While I don't hold any candle at all for BG or would suggest ever buying
anything from them, I think that your analysis is a little extreme....

- Discount deals are the same as any other offer, such as three for the
price of two in the supermarket, January sales, ...... They are there
to incent the customer to buy.

- If they are there 100% of the time, it would be legitimate to say that
the discount amount was added on in the first place. If it's not then
the amount is in effect taken from gross margin on the deal.

- Having deals that are only available on the day is a way of getting
the customer to take an action on the day. It's rather naff in
concept, but it works. If the customer can be closed, he is less
likely to look at the competition and the salesman can move on to the
next opportunity. In principle this is not any different to any
other promotional pricing or sale - only the timescale is different.

- Do you have specific knowledge of BG's commission plans? It is
highly unlikely that the salesman would make £1000 on a £4000 sale
unless he is on commission only or an extremely small basic salary.Even
so, the figures don't stand scrutiny. The market price with a small
installer for this job appears to be in the £2500 to £3000 range. BG
is an enormous corporation with overheads to match. I think it is
highly unlikely that almost all the incremental amount over the market
rate would find its way into the salesman's pocket.

- A commission of 5-10% of the deal is much more typical for a part
salaried salesman in the consumer products and services sector. Work
out the numbers. Let's say the salesman makes 4 visits a day with an
average sale value of £3000. A 30% conversion rate is probably about
right for a branded service company like BG. At 48 working weeks a
year, this amounts to a revenue of £864000. A commission rate of 25%
would result in earnings of £216000 per annum. Somehow, I think that's
unlikely and an OTE of £50k or perhaps a little more is much more
likely, and hence the lower commission rate in tghe 5-10% range - hardly
fat.

- Now contrast with the sole trader. He also has to visit customers,
do quotes and win only a certain percentage of the business he quotes
for. His time is not free for doing this - it comes out of his gross
margin. In terms of proportion of time taken, and hence cost, it is
also likely to be in the 5-10% range. The customer pays for that just
in the same way as for a salesman's commission.

- I would agree with you that the good sole trader has plenty of work
and probably doesn't need to offer special deals to make business happen
at certain times.

So really, the reality of the comparison is that BG is a large
corporation which buys and sells services and makes a margin for doing
so. The difference in the price is all about feeding that.


Some years ago I had a number of quotes for a complete central heating
installation, BG were the highest by a fair margin. I subsequently had
it installed by a large local firm. Over the next YEAR I kept receiving
revised quotes from BG until they were the cheapest. If they still do
this and you want BG perhaps you should just wait a while.

"Andy Hall" wrote:
While I don't hold any candle at all for BG or would suggest ever buying
anything from them, I think that your analysis is a little extreme....

- Discount deals are the same as any other offer, such as three for the
price of two in the supermarket, January sales, ...... They are there to
incent the customer to buy.

- If they are there 100% of the time, it would be legitimate to say that
the discount amount was added on in the first place. If it's not then the
amount is in effect taken from gross margin on the deal.

- Having deals that are only available on the day is a way of getting the
customer to take an action on the day. It's rather naff in concept, but
it works. If the customer can be closed, he is less likely to look at
the competition and the salesman can move on to the next opportunity.
In principle this is not any different to any other promotional pricing
or sale - only the timescale is different.

- Do you have specific knowledge of BG's commission plans? It is highly
unlikely that the salesman would make £1000 on a £4000 sale unless he is
on commission only or an extremely small basic salary.Even so, the figures
don't stand scrutiny. The market price with a small installer for this
job appears to be in the £2500 to £3000 range. BG is an enormous
corporation with overheads to match. I think it is highly unlikely that
almost all the incremental amount over the market rate would find its way
into the salesman's pocket.

- A commission of 5-10% of the deal is much more typical for a part
salaried salesman in the consumer products and services sector. Work
out the numbers. Let's say the salesman makes 4 visits a day with an
average sale value of £3000. A 30% conversion rate is probably about
right for a branded service company like BG. At 48 working weeks a year,
this amounts to a revenue of £864000. A commission rate of 25% would
result in earnings of £216000 per annum. Somehow, I think that's
unlikely and an OTE of £50k or perhaps a little more is much more likely,
and hence the lower commission rate in tghe 5-10% range - hardly fat.

- Now contrast with the sole trader. He also has to visit customers, do
quotes and win only a certain percentage of the business he quotes for.
His time is not free for doing this - it comes out of his gross margin.
In terms of proportion of time taken, and hence cost, it is also likely to
be in the 5-10% range. The customer pays for that just in the same way as
for a salesman's commission.

- I would agree with you that the good sole trader has plenty of work and
probably doesn't need to offer special deals to make business happen at
certain times.

So really, the reality of the comparison is that BG is a large corporation
which buys and sells services and makes a margin for doing so. The
difference in the price is all about feeding that.

I wrote up to one grand. Your analysis might also be rather extreme if you
had been shafted by BG. I won't bore you with the details, but when I was
much younger and much more naive I foolishly got BG to install central
heating. Every plumber who has seen it has asked who installed this pile of
****e.

On 2006-08-28 08:41:16 +0100, "Phil Anthropist"
said:

"Andy Hall" wrote:
While I don't hold any candle at all for BG or would suggest ever
buying anything from them, I think that your analysis is a little
extreme....

- Discount deals are the same as any other offer, such as three for the
price of two in the supermarket, January sales, ...... They are there
to incent the customer to buy.

- If they are there 100% of the time, it would be legitimate to say
that the discount amount was added on in the first place. If it's not
then the amount is in effect taken from gross margin on the deal.

- Having deals that are only available on the day is a way of getting
the customer to take an action on the day. It's rather naff in
concept, but it works. If the customer can be closed, he is less
likely to look at the competition and the salesman can move on to the
next opportunity. In principle this is not any different to any other
promotional pricing or sale - only the timescale is different.

- Do you have specific knowledge of BG's commission plans? It is
highly unlikely that the salesman would make £1000 on a £4000 sale
unless he is on commission only or an extremely small basic salary.Even
so, the figures don't stand scrutiny. The market price with a small
installer for this job appears to be in the £2500 to £3000 range. BG
is an enormous corporation with overheads to match. I think it is
highly unlikely that almost all the incremental amount over the market
rate would find its way into the salesman's pocket.

- A commission of 5-10% of the deal is much more typical for a part
salaried salesman in the consumer products and services sector.
Work out the numbers. Let's say the salesman makes 4 visits a day
with an average sale value of £3000. A 30% conversion rate is probably
about right for a branded service company like BG. At 48 working
weeks a year, this amounts to a revenue of £864000. A commission
rate of 25% would result in earnings of £216000 per annum. Somehow, I
think that's unlikely and an OTE of £50k or perhaps a little more is
much more likely, and hence the lower commission rate in tghe 5-10%
range - hardly fat.

- Now contrast with the sole trader. He also has to visit customers,
do quotes and win only a certain percentage of the business he quotes
for. His time is not free for doing this - it comes out of his gross
margin. In terms of proportion of time taken, and hence cost, it is
also likely to be in the 5-10% range. The customer pays for that just
in the same way as for a salesman's commission.

- I would agree with you that the good sole trader has plenty of work
and probably doesn't need to offer special deals to make business
happen at certain times.

So really, the reality of the comparison is that BG is a large
corporation which buys and sells services and makes a margin for doing
so. The difference in the price is all about feeding that.

I wrote up to one grand. Your analysis might also be rather extreme if
you had been shafted by BG. I won't bore you with the details, but when
I was much younger and much more naive I foolishly got BG to install
central heating. Every plumber who has seen it has asked who installed
this pile of ****e.

I completely sympathise. I was simply pointing out that the issue is
with the company and it's ways of doing business, not with the salesman.

About 18 months ago I had 3 quotes for a completely new CH system. The first
quote was from BG and at £6k seemed huge for what I wanted. After I picked
myself up off the floor I thought never mind, the other quotes will be a lot
better. I turned out they were better but disappointly only by 5% & 10%, I
ended up doing the work (+ a lot extra) myself except for the new boiler
install. Saved about 40% (only a guess because the end result was radically
different) but it took ages!.

Egremont.

The message
from Andy Hall contains these words:

- If they are there 100% of the time, it would be legitimate to say
that the discount amount was added on in the first place. If it's not
then the amount is in effect taken from gross margin on the deal.

Which shows how extrordinarily large their profit margins are then.
We've just bought some carpet for our son's bedroom. Nice stuff, 3mx4m,
£95. Had we bought it outside the sales it'd have been nearly £240.

Either they're selling it at a loss during the sales and someone
somewhere must have subsidised our purchase by paying full whack, or
they're still making a profit and making vastly more profit the rest of
the time.

I know which I'd believe.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

in 563795 20060828 123520 Guy King wrote:

Either they're selling it at a loss during the sales and someone
somewhere must have subsidised our purchase by paying full whack, or
they're still making a profit and making vastly more profit the rest of
the time.

I know which I'd believe.

Yes, like Holland & Barrett's "better than half-price sale".

The message
from Bob Martin contains these words:

Yes, like Holland & Barrett's "better than half-price sale".

Better for whom?

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Andy Hall wrote:

While I don't hold any candle at all for BG or would suggest ever buying
anything from them, I think that your analysis is a little extreme....

- Discount deals are the same as any other offer, such as three for the
price of two in the supermarket, January sales, ...... They are there
to incent the customer to buy.

- If they are there 100% of the time, it would be legitimate to say that
the discount amount was added on in the first place. If it's not then
the amount is in effect taken from gross margin on the deal.

- Having deals that are only available on the day is a way of getting
the customer to take an action on the day. It's rather naff in
concept, but it works. If the customer can be closed, he is less
likely to look at the competition and the salesman can move on to the
next opportunity. In principle this is not any different to any
other promotional pricing or sale - only the timescale is different.

- Do you have specific knowledge of BG's commission plans? It is
highly unlikely that the salesman would make £1000 on a £4000 sale
unless he is on commission only or an extremely small basic salary.Even
so, the figures don't stand scrutiny. The market price with a small
installer for this job appears to be in the £2500 to £3000 range. BG
is an enormous corporation with overheads to match. I think it is
highly unlikely that almost all the incremental amount over the market
rate would find its way into the salesman's pocket.

- A commission of 5-10% of the deal is much more typical for a part
salaried salesman in the consumer products and services sector. Work
out the numbers. Let's say the salesman makes 4 visits a day with an
average sale value of £3000. A 30% conversion rate is probably about
right for a branded service company like BG. At 48 working weeks a
year, this amounts to a revenue of £864000. A commission rate of 25%
would result in earnings of £216000 per annum. Somehow, I think that's
unlikely and an OTE of £50k or perhaps a little more is much more
likely, and hence the lower commission rate in tghe 5-10% range - hardly
fat.

- Now contrast with the sole trader. He also has to visit customers,
do quotes and win only a certain percentage of the business he quotes
for. His time is not free for doing this - it comes out of his gross
margin. In terms of proportion of time taken, and hence cost, it is
also likely to be in the 5-10% range. The customer pays for that just
in the same way as for a salesman's commission.

- I would agree with you that the good sole trader has plenty of work
and probably doesn't need to offer special deals to make business happen
at certain times.

So really, the reality of the comparison is that BG is a large
corporation which buys and sells services and makes a margin for doing
so. The difference in the price is all about feeding that.


I like your comparison and that it highlights that it is not the
salesman, however much of a weasel he may be, and these guys usually are.

There is one more thing to add to eh comparison, this may in some cases
be relevant and in some not, not in the case where work is carried out
properly and components of a decent quality is being used.

I must stress that nor do I hold any incendiary lighting devices for BG,
or for that matter any megacorps.

But an interesting aspect of it is the "feeling of safety" I may
inadvertently be referring to the sense of security derived from
"Dealing with the gas board" here but it occurred to me after a recent
discussion with my father in law about the subject of who should carry
out our forthcoming (as in within the next 20 months or so) boiler
replacement that big companies like BG, or indeed in my father in laws
own words "The fuel supplier" (I take it from his statement that other
gas suppliers offer a similar service?) also offer a combined guarantee.

Now in the private I.T sector one often hears of "one supplier, one
guarantee" this equates to in the currently discussed scenario that the
device in question (the boiler) along with any other active devices and
also the installation of said devices has been, at least at a fiscal
viewpoint carried out by the same company, I can see how that can be a
good thing were something to go wrong, in which case one would have a
central point of reference to go back to and demand satisfaction, where
with another solution one might end up with the manufacturer of the
boiler blaming the installer and vice versa. However I am completely
unaware about weather this would be likely to happen just as well with
an installation carried out by BG.

Also I can understand that such an "assurance" may be of a lesser value
to some, surely where I always home to deal with anything it would seem
less attractive to myself but as my father in law put it "Think about it
Jan, you are away on an op in December, no means for your wife to
contact you and the boiler breaks, what will happen?" The way he made it
out a large supplier would be obligated within the period of guarantee
to fix a problem or provide adequate accommodation.

I must admit I have not investigated this much further, I just thought
of it reading this post and indeed this may not correspond to reality,
but I suppose it's worth a thought.

//J

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from Andy Hall contains these words:

- If they are there 100% of the time, it would be legitimate to say
that the discount amount was added on in the first place. If it's not
then the amount is in effect taken from gross margin on the deal.

Which shows how extrordinarily large their profit margins are then.
We've just bought some carpet for our son's bedroom. Nice stuff, 3mx4m,
£95. Had we bought it outside the sales it'd have been nearly £240.

Either they're selling it at a loss during the sales and someone
somewhere must have subsidised our purchase by paying full whack, or
they're still making a profit and making vastly more profit the rest of
the time.


Retailers, typically 'mark-up' their _costs_ by 50%. A two pound article ,
from the wholesaler, will be offered for sale at three pound. The One pound
difference goes to pay wages, insurance, floor rental, lighting, heating,
marketing etc. etc. ... after all this (know to Accountants as 'Cost of
Sales') has been entered into the 'books' the retailer might make eight
_pence_ 'profit'. That is the excess of sales minus costs.
Most retailers will operate on a ninety day 'free loan' from their
wholesalers ... the goods will be delivered against an invoice which should
be settled within ninety days. Most retailers will work on the assumption
that they'll get the three quid _sale_ into their tills before the two quid
bill they're sitting on is due. In this (ideal) circumstance the 'cost' of
the goods they're retailing isn't of real concern; it's the 'Cost of Sales'
that is a metric of their efficiency. .... But; if they haven't _sold_ the
goods for three quid at the ninety day point; things start to go wrong,
horribly quickly ... they've got to pay the wholesaler or they'll not get
any more stock. They'll borrow from a Bank - now they'll have to pay
interest on the overdraft: they haven't got the one quid 'surplus' from the
sale but have still to pay rent, fuel, taxes and wages ... ooh, ooh, that
eight pence profit is now a loss of 92 pence! Solution, mark the sale price
down to two quid! { At least they'll be able to pay the wholesaler.. or the
Bank ... or the Taxman ... but they'r still not making any surplus to pay
the wages. etc.

I know which I'd believe.

Can you educate the readers on your dynamic retailing experience... ?
How the Boss of ,say, BHS; tried to lure you to run Marks and Sparks?

--
Skipweasel

--

Brian

Brian Sharrock wrote:
"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from Andy Hall contains these words:

- If they are there 100% of the time, it would be legitimate to say
that the discount amount was added on in the first place. If it's not
then the amount is in effect taken from gross margin on the deal.
Which shows how extrordinarily large their profit margins are then.
We've just bought some carpet for our son's bedroom. Nice stuff, 3mx4m,
£95. Had we bought it outside the sales it'd have been nearly £240.

Either they're selling it at a loss during the sales and someone
somewhere must have subsidised our purchase by paying full whack, or
they're still making a profit and making vastly more profit the rest of
the time.


Retailers, typically 'mark-up' their _costs_ by 50%. A two pound article ,
from the wholesaler, will be offered for sale at three pound. The One pound
difference goes to pay wages, insurance, floor rental, lighting, heating,
marketing etc. etc. ... after all this (know to Accountants as 'Cost of
Sales') has been entered into the 'books' the retailer might make eight
_pence_ 'profit'. That is the excess of sales minus costs.
Most retailers will operate on a ninety day 'free loan' from their
wholesalers ... the goods will be delivered against an invoice which should
be settled within ninety days. Most retailers will work on the assumption
that they'll get the three quid _sale_ into their tills before the two quid
bill they're sitting on is due. In this (ideal) circumstance the 'cost' of
the goods they're retailing isn't of real concern; it's the 'Cost of Sales'
that is a metric of their efficiency. .... But; if they haven't _sold_ the
goods for three quid at the ninety day point; things start to go wrong,
horribly quickly ... they've got to pay the wholesaler or they'll not get
any more stock. They'll borrow from a Bank - now they'll have to pay
interest on the overdraft: they haven't got the one quid 'surplus' from the
sale but have still to pay rent, fuel, taxes and wages ... ooh, ooh, that
eight pence profit is now a loss of 92 pence! Solution, mark the sale price
down to two quid! { At least they'll be able to pay the wholesaler.. or the
Bank ... or the Taxman ... but they'r still not making any surplus to pay
the wages. etc.

I know which I'd believe.

Can you educate the readers on your dynamic retailing experience... ?
How the Boss of ,say, BHS; tried to lure you to run Marks and Sparks?

--
Skipweasel


Why go all silly when choosing a ch installer? You shop around for
everything else, so do the same with this. I guarantee the £400 discount
won't go away.
As an aside, I was in a cafe the other with a group of BG blokes whose
vans were all parked up outside, and a bigger bunch of oiks I have never
had the misfortune to sit next to. Not that they do the installing of
course. That's left to a sub contractor, who probably has to cut corners
to make a profit but, as the face of BG, this lot were seriously lacking.

The message
from "Brian Sharrock" contains these words:

Retailers, typically 'mark-up' their _costs_ by 50%. A two pound article ,
from the wholesaler, will be offered for sale at three pound.

I may have mentioned before that I have a nephew who works for a large
shipping company. They move, amonst other things, sofas for a big
leather sofa barn. When damage occurs they pay the cost price of the
item, not the retail price. He reckons that sofas that sell in the £800
area are often under £40 to the supplier.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

OP & others,
This discussion serves well to warn those folks who look at
and subscribe to "DIY" that BG is a very greedy Co. for installation
of new boilers and other stuff.
Long time appenders/watchers have known this for years.

We've had such warnings many times before and it doesn't seem to get
better.

FACT:
Nobody has ever come onto this site with a message which said that BG
was the best they could get with a combination of price & quality,
(i.e. value).

SO:
How do we, get the message out?

That is commonsense from a reasonably well informed group of
DIY enthusiasts, who, while amateurs, welcome and use
good professional input.

I really do worry about the decent old person/pensioner
who calls in BG because he/she thinks it's the company that they've
known for generations and think that it's something to do with the
Public Sector,

(NO, please, don't go into a rant about Public Sector and the
rights/wrongs of privtisation , please!)

I live in a part of a somewhat prosperous major UK City with lots of
flats
around me, mainly occupied by older people.

All these good folks are vulnerable to BG's greed.

They need better.
They need good/keen/honest tradesmen, fully registered and insured who
can do what these folks need safely and at a fair profit?

Rant over.... sorry, I feel very keenly about this, I really hate
fraud!

EP

On 2006-08-28 12:35:20 +0100, Guy King said:

The message
from Andy Hall contains these words:

- If they are there 100% of the time, it would be legitimate to say
that the discount amount was added on in the first place. If it's not
then the amount is in effect taken from gross margin on the deal.

Which shows how extrordinarily large their profit margins are then.
We've just bought some carpet for our son's bedroom. Nice stuff, 3mx4m,
£95. Had we bought it outside the sales it'd have been nearly £240.

Either they're selling it at a loss during the sales and someone
somewhere must have subsidised our purchase by paying full whack, or
they're still making a profit and making vastly more profit the rest of
the time.

I know which I'd believe.

Or they are overstocked on a line and want to shift the product rather
than dumping it....

The message
from Andy Hall contains these words:

I know which I'd believe.

Or they are overstocked on a line and want to shift the product rather
than dumping it....

In the case of the carpet place we went to today that'd be most of their
range then. There were some 40% reductions, but mostly 60%.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Thank you so much for your feedback - I have cancelled! Note that
despite section 17 of the t&cs stating that you must send a registered
form to cancel, sending a fax (ring them first) was sufficient in my
case. I was worried I would miss the 7 day cooling off period.

Thanks again.

James wrote:
Thank you so much for your feedback - I have cancelled! Note that
despite section 17 of the t&cs stating that you must send a registered
form to cancel, sending a fax (ring them first) was sufficient in my
case. I was worried I would miss the 7 day cooling off period.

Thanks again.


You'll probably find the best deal overall from a local CORGI. Heating
"firms" are often just mini versions of BG, jobbing everything out and
skimming the profits. You can get a list of local CORGIs here

http://www.corgi-gas-safety.com/sect..._installer.asp

"James" wrote in message
ups.com...
Thank you so much for your feedback - I have cancelled! Note that
despite section 17 of the t&cs stating that you must send a registered
form to cancel, sending a fax (ring them first) was sufficient in my
case. I was worried I would miss the 7 day cooling off period.

Thanks again.


Gud on ya. Let us know how much you get it done for.

Steve