Hi All,

Ok so we are going to go for a heatbank type hot water system.
Ive found the Pandora systems online, they sound professional.
Has anybody any other recommendations for manufacturers
that are worth investigating?

Thanks,
Matthew

Ok so we are going to go for a heatbank type hot water system.
Ive found the Pandora systems online, they sound professional.
Has anybody any other recommendations for manufacturers
that are worth investigating?

Gledhill also do them.

They also do one box solutions with the boiler built in, which means you can
run the heating at low temp, whilst heating the store to high temp.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
Ok so we are going to go for a heatbank type hot water system.
Ive found the Pandora systems online, they sound professional.
Has anybody any other recommendations for manufacturers
that are worth investigating?

Gledhill also do them.

They also do one box solutions with the boiler built in, which means you can
run the heating at low temp, whilst heating the store to high temp.

Christian.

You can do that with the pandora - the heating can run through a plate
heat exchanger and a thermostatic mixer, so the heating system
temperature is only heated to the set level.

A

wrote:

They also do one box solutions with the boiler built in, which means you can
run the heating at low temp, whilst heating the store to high temp.

You can do that with the pandora - the heating can run through a plate
heat exchanger and a thermostatic mixer, so the heating system
temperature is only heated to the set level.

But the boiler would still be running at a high temp so not operating at
max. efficiency (I presume that is the difference)

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You can do that with the pandora - the heating can run through a plate
heat exchanger and a thermostatic mixer, so the heating system
temperature is only heated to the set level.

But that doesn't provide the best efficiency from the boiler, although it
would improve things, as the return temp would still be lower.

Christian.

Matthew wrote:
Ok so we are going to go for a heatbank type hot water system.
Ive found the Pandora systems online, they sound professional.
Has anybody any other recommendations for manufacturers
that are worth investigating?

I have an Albion Mainsflow which works superbly. It's much cheaper than
the equivalent Pandora as it uses an internal coil to heat the DHW
rather than an external plate heat exchanger and pump. It cost me about
£650 (for a 140 litre direct, cased version). DPS quoted me over a
grand (from memory) for the Pandora.

-Antony

Antony wrote:
I have an Albion Mainsflow which works superbly. It's much cheaper than
the equivalent Pandora as it uses an internal coil to heat the DHW
rather than an external plate heat exchanger and pump. It cost me about
£650 (for a 140 litre direct, cased version). DPS quoted me over a
grand (from memory) for the Pandora.

Hi Antony,

I had a look at the Albion website
and then phoned them up. It sounds
as though this may be our preferred
option. The Pandora system from DPS
is a lot more expensive along with the
mains system from Gledhill.
The nice thing about the Albion unit is
that it will retrofit straight into our
current Honeywell Y plan system
without too much fuss. Were did you
buy the Mainsflow from and did you get
any discount?

Although I could fit it myself I will
probably get a plumber to fit it for speed.
Maybe a days work?

We have 3 bathrooms with the potential
to have 3 showers in use at once. Initially
I was thinking of buying 3 booster pumps
which for decent pumps works out to about
400 to 500. It is probably better to pay a bit
more and go for a high pressure cylinder.
I did think about the megaflow option but
I have been put off those for a number of
reasons (servicing, hard water etc).

I have to check our mains pressure and
flow rate before I progress. If there is a
problem with that then I suppose
its game off unfortunately.

Thanks for any advice,
Matthew

Matthew wrote:
Antony wrote:
I have an Albion Mainsflow which works superbly. It's much cheaper than
the equivalent Pandora as it uses an internal coil to heat the DHW
rather than an external plate heat exchanger and pump. It cost me about
£650 (for a 140 litre direct, cased version). DPS quoted me over a
grand (from memory) for the Pandora.

Hi Antony,

I had a look at the Albion website
and then phoned them up. It sounds
as though this may be our preferred
option. The Pandora system from DPS
is a lot more expensive along with the
mains system from Gledhill.
The nice thing about the Albion unit is
that it will retrofit straight into our
current Honeywell Y plan system
without too much fuss. Were did you
buy the Mainsflow from and did you get
any discount?

Although I could fit it myself I will
probably get a plumber to fit it for speed.
Maybe a days work?

We have 3 bathrooms with the potential
to have 3 showers in use at once. Initially
I was thinking of buying 3 booster pumps
which for decent pumps works out to about
400 to 500. It is probably better to pay a bit
more and go for a high pressure cylinder.
I did think about the megaflow option but
I have been put off those for a number of
reasons (servicing, hard water etc).

I have to check our mains pressure and
flow rate before I progress. If there is a
problem with that then I suppose
its game off unfortunately.

Matthew,
I bought it from www.theheatingshop.co.uk (though it was delivered by
my local Plumb Center, so I guess they just have an account). Checking
their site, it looks like the price has gone up a fair bit over the
last 12 months (higher copper prices?). My model is an "MFT25/140
Direct Cased Contractor", but from your description it looks like you
want an Indirect model. There are other suppliers, so check around for
the best price (I Googled, and one came up on eBay). www.bhl.co.uk
looked cheaper, and they probably just use Plumb Center like most
internet-based plumbing sites.

Finding a plumber who is familiar with these types of systems could be
difficult. I installed mine myself. It was certainly more than a days
work, but then I completely replaced my entire CH/DHW system (the
thermal store sits in the loft above the airing cupboard on the "raft"
that used to support the 50 gallon water tank).

As you're moving from stored water to mains pressure, I'm sure you'll
need to do some fairly extensive replumbing to get a 22mm mains water
feed to the store. Also the store comes with a pressure reducing valve,
preset to 3.5bar that needs to be fitted somewhere upstream of the unit
to protect it.

You mention having hard water as a reason not to go unvented. Actually,
due to the higher temperature in a thermal store, and the heat
exchanger coil (4 long 10mm copper coils in the Albion) it is more
prone to scaling than an unvented cylinder. I live in a hard water
area, but I'd already installed a water softener (a Monarch "Midi")
prior to getting the thermal store. One reason for going for an
external heat exchanger (e.g. Pandora) is so you can remove it for
periodic descaling. I'd highly recommend getting a water softener
whatever your decision as it's so much nicer.

As far as water flow goes if you want to run 3 showers at once you want
around 30 litres/minute. The static pressure needs to be decent - the
usual test is to hold your thumb over the kitchen tap - if you can stop
the flow the pressure is too low.

-Antony

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:18:56 +0100, Christian McArdle wrote:

Ok so we are going to go for a heatbank type hot water system.
Ive found the Pandora systems online, they sound professional.
Has anybody any other recommendations for manufacturers
that are worth investigating?

Gledhill also do them.

Also McDonald engineering do coil-in-cylinder (rather than external plate
heat exchanger + pump) types. If you have an open rather than sealed
primary system then you can get very good recovery rates and lower
temperature drops between primary and DHW (and thus better efficiency from
a condensing boiler) by having a thermal store in which the stored water
is part of the boiler primary circuit. McDonald seem quite keen on this
arrangement.

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:18:56 +0100, Christian McArdle wrote:

Ok so we are going to go for a heatbank type hot water system.
Ive found the Pandora systems online, they sound professional.
Has anybody any other recommendations for manufacturers
that are worth investigating?

Gledhill also do them.

Also McDonald engineering do coil-in-cylinder (rather than external plate
heat exchanger + pump) types. If you have an open rather than sealed
primary system then you can get very good recovery rates and lower
temperature drops between primary and DHW (and thus better efficiency from
a condensing boiler) by having a thermal store in which the stored water
is part of the boiler primary circuit. McDonald seem quite keen on this
arrangement.

Fit a Magnaclean filter on the CH return to the thermal store.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Christian McArdle wrote:
Ok so we are going to go for a heatbank type hot water system.
Ive found the Pandora systems online, they sound professional.
Has anybody any other recommendations for manufacturers
that are worth investigating?

Gledhill also do them.

They also do one box solutions with the boiler built in, which means you
can
run the heating at low temp, whilst heating the store to high temp.

Christian.

You can do that with the pandora - the heating can run through a plate
heat exchanger and a thermostatic mixer, so the heating system
temperature is only heated to the set level.

Best have DHW priority system. The boiler set to max and when CH is called
DHW switched out when up to temp, and then the boiler temp is floated in
line with the outside temperature by a weather compensator. The Danfoss
model is quite cheap.

""Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬)"" wrote in message
...
wrote:

They also do one box solutions with the boiler built in, which means you
can
run the heating at low temp, whilst heating the store to high temp.

You can do that with the pandora - the heating can run through a plate
heat exchanger and a thermostatic mixer, so the heating system
temperature is only heated to the set level.

But the boiler would still be running at a high temp so not operating at
max. efficiency (I presume that is the difference)

I think he means take the CH water via the plate which is heated from the
hot water in the cylinder.

"Matthew" wrote in message
oups.com...
Antony wrote:
I have an Albion Mainsflow which works superbly. It's much cheaper than
the equivalent Pandora as it uses an internal coil to heat the DHW
rather than an external plate heat exchanger and pump. It cost me about
£650 (for a 140 litre direct, cased version). DPS quoted me over a
grand (from memory) for the Pandora.

Hi Antony,

I had a look at the Albion website
and then phoned them up. It sounds
as though this may be our preferred
option. The Pandora system from DPS
is a lot more expensive along with the
mains system from Gledhill.
The nice thing about the Albion unit is
that it will retrofit straight into our
current Honeywell Y plan system
without too much fuss. Were did you
buy the Mainsflow from and did you get
any discount?

Although I could fit it myself I will
probably get a plumber to fit it for speed.
Maybe a days work?

We have 3 bathrooms with the potential
to have 3 showers in use at once. Initially
I was thinking of buying 3 booster pumps
which for decent pumps works out to about
400 to 500. It is probably better to pay a bit
more and go for a high pressure cylinder.
I did think about the megaflow option but
I have been put off those for a number of
reasons (servicing, hard water etc).

I have to check our mains pressure and
flow rate before I progress. If there is a
problem with that then I suppose
its game off unfortunately.

Thanks for any advice,
Matthew


You can fit an accumulator quite cheaply. Google on my name and
accumulator. I explain how to do it. Cheaper than all those pumps, but you
need a place to put it. The loft would do. I had one fitted in the attic
of a garage. The cold water came in, inside the garage, so quite easy.

Thanks for all the useful info as ever.
At least Im now primed for when I talk to a plumber.
The Albion Mainsflow looks to be the favourite option
due to cost. The info on the accumulator is useful to
know if we did have future problems. I would probably
fit that myself. BTW how much does something like that cost?

The only issue to be resolved at the moment is placement....
Obviously it could replace the existing cylinder in the airing
cupboard. The pipework would be very straightforward.
Potentially, it could also go in the loft in place of the existing
gravity feed header tank with a little bit more
pipework. This would free up a large cupboard to give us
extra storage space upstairs. I presume the small CH header
tank would need to be lifted above the new cylinder on a small
platform? Has anybody any advice on the pros and cons here.

In terms of the incoming mains feed, it is reduced down
to 15mm in the kitchen. I think this could all be replaced with
22mm when we do put in a new kitchen. For the near future
we would make do with the existing 15mm feed for ease.

Thanks,
Matthew

"Matthew" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for all the useful info as ever.
At least Im now primed for when I talk to a plumber.
The Albion Mainsflow looks to be the favourite option
due to cost. The info on the accumulator is useful to
know if we did have future problems. I would probably
fit that myself. BTW how much does something like that cost?

Cut from Google

The Reliance 200L accumulator is ~£300.
http://www.rwc.co.uk/Product.aspx?page=CAT6
No. 2.

So the controls and all can be fitted for a fraction of the price of the
Dual Stream (link below). About £400 inc controls for a 200 litre which
effectively will store about 100 litres of cold water, which is fine for a
one bathroom house. It gives the static mains pressure but lots of volume.
If the mains is cut off there is a store of cold water.

I would say minimum 1 bar mains pressure to operate and a pressure relief
valve.

You need on the mains pipe.

- A double check valve on the mains pressure reducing valve set to what
Reliance recommend (maybe around 3 to 3.5 bar). They tend to specify a
pressure reducer, in case the mains spikes and ruins the accumulator
diaphragm.
- line strainer
- Full bore maintap
- Pressure relief valve set above the PRV (if a PRV needed)
- tundish

If using a heat bank then that will be OK. If the cold is supplying a volume
of water that will be heated (unvented cylinder), then a double check valve
on the cylinder supply.

Some Reliance accumulator models may have the diaphragms replaced too.
Look at this to give an idea of where components fit:
http://www.gah.co.uk/GAH_Dualstream/frameset.htm



The only issue to be resolved at the moment is placement....
Obviously it could replace the existing cylinder in the airing
cupboard. The pipework would be very straightforward.
Potentially, it could also go in the loft in place of the existing
gravity feed header tank with a little bit more
pipework. This would free up a large cupboard to give us
extra storage space upstairs. I presume the small CH header
tank would need to be lifted above the new cylinder on a small
platform? Has anybody any advice on the pros and cons here.

The header is incorporated within the Albion cylinder (they have with and
without models). Look at the Range FlowMax thermal store/heat bank with a
plate heat exchanger and usually well priced.
http://www.range-cylidners.co.uk

In terms of the incoming mains feed, it is reduced down
to 15mm in the kitchen. I think this could all be replaced with
22mm when we do put in a new kitchen. For the near future
we would make do with the existing 15mm feed for ease.

In any mains pressure system, have a 22mm dedicated line to the cylinder
direct from a full bore stoptap. No tee-offs from this line, except the
cold to the showers which should be teed off just before the cylinder. A
separate 15mm line for each shower

Matthew wrote:
Thanks for all the useful info as ever.
At least Im now primed for when I talk to a plumber.
The Albion Mainsflow looks to be the favourite option
due to cost.

The only issue to be resolved at the moment is placement....
Obviously it could replace the existing cylinder in the airing
cupboard. The pipework would be very straightforward.
Potentially, it could also go in the loft in place of the existing
gravity feed header tank with a little bit more
pipework. This would free up a large cupboard to give us
extra storage space upstairs. I presume the small CH header
tank would need to be lifted above the new cylinder on a small
platform? Has anybody any advice on the pros and cons here.

As I said before, in my case I installed a Direct version of the
Mainsflow in the loft directly above the airing cupboard (I installed
the boiler is in the airing cupboard). With this model it *is* the feed
& expansion tank for the system. There's a ballcock at the top of the
cylinder to fill it (just like in a F&E tank). If you use the airing
cupboard to dry clothes, then you'll need to include a very small
radiator (or some exposed pipework) to replace the heat that would have
come from the cylinder.

Note that you need to think about how you'd get the store into the loft
- is your hatch big enough? I'd wanted to replace my tiny hatch with a
larger combined hatch/ladder, so did that at the same time - I rigged
up a simple pulley system to haul the store up (with a lot of help from
my Dad).

The water in the store is the Primary water and there are two
pumps/connections - one pumps water to the boiler (I used a standard
Grundfos Selectric fixed speed type) under the control of the boiler.
The boiler is controlled (i.e. "call for heat") by the
programmer+cylinder thermostat.

The second pump supplies the radiators (I used a Grundfos Alpha
self-modulating type for this) and is controlled by the programmer+room
thermostat. This eliminates the need for zone/diverter valves. The
instructions with the store tell you how to set up the wiring, which is
very simple.

You are looking at some quite significant work here to make all these
plumbing, electrical (and carpentry for that matter) changes, but you
should be very pleased with the end result.

-Antony

"Antony" wrote in message
ups.com...

Matthew wrote:
Thanks for all the useful info as ever.
At least Im now primed for when I talk to a plumber.
The Albion Mainsflow looks to be the favourite option
due to cost.

The only issue to be resolved at the moment is placement....
Obviously it could replace the existing cylinder in the airing
cupboard. The pipework would be very straightforward.
Potentially, it could also go in the loft in place of the existing
gravity feed header tank with a little bit more
pipework. This would free up a large cupboard to give us
extra storage space upstairs. I presume the small CH header
tank would need to be lifted above the new cylinder on a small
platform? Has anybody any advice on the pros and cons here.

As I said before, in my case I installed a Direct version of the
Mainsflow in the loft directly above the airing cupboard (I installed
the boiler is in the airing cupboard). With this model it *is* the feed
& expansion tank for the system. There's a ballcock at the top of the
cylinder to fill it (just like in a F&E tank). If you use the airing
cupboard to dry clothes, then you'll need to include a very small
radiator (or some exposed pipework) to replace the heat that would have
come from the cylinder.

Note that you need to think about how you'd get the store into the loft
- is your hatch big enough? I'd wanted to replace my tiny hatch with a
larger combined hatch/ladder, so did that at the same time - I rigged
up a simple pulley system to haul the store up (with a lot of help from
my Dad).

The water in the store is the Primary water and there are two
pumps/connections - one pumps water to the boiler (I used a standard
Grundfos Selectric fixed speed type) under the control of the boiler.
The boiler is controlled (i.e. "call for heat") by the
programmer+cylinder thermostat.

The second pump supplies the radiators (I used a Grundfos Alpha
self-modulating type for this) and is controlled by the programmer+room
thermostat. This eliminates the need for zone/diverter valves. The
instructions with the store tell you how to set up the wiring, which is
very simple.

How does the Alpha perform? Have you TRVs on all rads?

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Antony" wrote in message
ups.com...

Matthew wrote:
Thanks for all the useful info as ever.
At least Im now primed for when I talk to a plumber.
The Albion Mainsflow looks to be the favourite option
due to cost.

The only issue to be resolved at the moment is placement....
Obviously it could replace the existing cylinder in the airing
cupboard. The pipework would be very straightforward.
Potentially, it could also go in the loft in place of the existing
gravity feed header tank with a little bit more
pipework. This would free up a large cupboard to give us
extra storage space upstairs. I presume the small CH header
tank would need to be lifted above the new cylinder on a small
platform? Has anybody any advice on the pros and cons here.

As I said before, in my case I installed a Direct version of the
Mainsflow in the loft directly above the airing cupboard (I installed
the boiler is in the airing cupboard). With this model it *is* the feed
& expansion tank for the system. There's a ballcock at the top of the
cylinder to fill it (just like in a F&E tank). If you use the airing
cupboard to dry clothes, then you'll need to include a very small
radiator (or some exposed pipework) to replace the heat that would have
come from the cylinder.

Note that you need to think about how you'd get the store into the loft
- is your hatch big enough? I'd wanted to replace my tiny hatch with a
larger combined hatch/ladder, so did that at the same time - I rigged
up a simple pulley system to haul the store up (with a lot of help from
my Dad).

The water in the store is the Primary water and there are two
pumps/connections - one pumps water to the boiler (I used a standard
Grundfos Selectric fixed speed type) under the control of the boiler.
The boiler is controlled (i.e. "call for heat") by the
programmer+cylinder thermostat.

The second pump supplies the radiators (I used a Grundfos Alpha
self-modulating type for this) and is controlled by the programmer+room
thermostat. This eliminates the need for zone/diverter valves. The
instructions with the store tell you how to set up the wiring, which is
very simple.

How does the Alpha perform? Have you TRVs on all rads?

It seems to work as intended. You can hear it changing speed, and I
don't have any problems with hammering pipes or whistling TRVs, etc. I
have TRVs on all the upstairs rads plus the hallway. The rest of the
downstairs is open plan and I have a Honeywell CM67RF in the lounge, so
no TRVs there.

-Antony