My missus has decided that the kitchen gets too cold in winter and as we're
in the middle of the kitchen refurb we've got a Myson Kickspace heater to go
in there. It has to be fed from an FCU (fused, according to the installation
manual at 2A - never seen a domestic 2A fuse so may have to be 3A unless you
tell me otherwise) which will be behind the unit.

Because the FCU isn't going to be easily accessible in case of an emergency,
commonsense (and maybe even the regs, I don't know) would dictate that I put
in an isolator switch and the best place for it in my particular situation
would be fairly close to the sink. Would someone have a look at
http://www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/switch.jpg please and confirm for me (or
otherwise, of course) that it's OK to put a switch in that location.

I happen to have a 45A double-pole switch surplus to requirements at the
moment so it may be overkill but I intend to use that as the isolator.

Cheers,

John.

John wrote:
My missus has decided that the kitchen gets too cold in winter and as we're
in the middle of the kitchen refurb we've got a Myson Kickspace heater to go
in there. It has to be fed from an FCU (fused, according to the installation
manual at 2A - never seen a domestic 2A fuse so may have to be 3A unless you
tell me otherwise) which will be behind the unit.

Because the FCU isn't going to be easily accessible in case of an emergency,
commonsense (and maybe even the regs, I don't know) would dictate that I put
in an isolator switch and the best place for it in my particular situation
would be fairly close to the sink. Would someone have a look at
http://www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/switch.jpg please and confirm for me (or
otherwise, of course) that it's OK to put a switch in that location.

I happen to have a 45A double-pole switch surplus to requirements at the
moment so it may be overkill but I intend to use that as the isolator.

Cheers,

I would put it a bit further to the left just clear of the sink but
well away from any potential spray or splash. otherwise its ok on the
wall there.
If that is the feed cable I would keep it in line with that and a foot
higher than you indicated. Err on the safe side.



John.

John wrote:
My missus has decided that the kitchen gets too cold in winter and as we're
in the middle of the kitchen refurb we've got a Myson Kickspace heater to go
in there. It has to be fed from an FCU (fused, according to the installation
manual at 2A - never seen a domestic 2A fuse so may have to be 3A unless you
tell me otherwise) which will be behind the unit.

Because the FCU isn't going to be easily accessible in case of an emergency,
commonsense (and maybe even the regs, I don't know) would dictate that I put
in an isolator switch and the best place for it in my particular situation
would be fairly close to the sink. Would someone have a look at
http://www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/switch.jpg please and confirm for me (or
otherwise, of course) that it's OK to put a switch in that location.

I happen to have a 45A double-pole switch surplus to requirements at the
moment so it may be overkill but I intend to use that as the isolator.

Cheers,

I would put it a bit further to the left just clear of the sink but
well away from any potential spray or splash. otherwise its ok on the
wall there.
If that is the feed cable I would keep it in line with that and a foot
higher than you indicated. Err on the safe side.

Because the FCU isn't going to be easily accessible in case of an
emergency,
commonsense (and maybe even the regs, I don't know) would dictate that I
put
in an isolator switch and the best place for it in my particular situation
would be fairly close to the sink.

I wouldn't bother. There is no need for emergency switching. I would just
use the switch on the FCU, mounted on the floor or wall behind the plinth,
next to the Kickspace unit. If there is an electrical fire (extraordinarily
unlikely), there's always the CU main switch, which will usually be safer to
access than a local switch.

Christian.

In article ,
John wrote:
It has to be fed from an FCU (fused, according to the installation
manual at 2A - never seen a domestic 2A fuse

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...ses/index.html

--
*I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote in message
oups.com...

John wrote:
My missus has decided that the kitchen gets too cold in winter and as
we're
in the middle of the kitchen refurb we've got a Myson Kickspace heater to
go
in there. It has to be fed from an FCU (fused, according to the
installation
manual at 2A - never seen a domestic 2A fuse so may have to be 3A unless
you
tell me otherwise) which will be behind the unit.

Because the FCU isn't going to be easily accessible in case of an
emergency,
commonsense (and maybe even the regs, I don't know) would dictate that I
put
in an isolator switch and the best place for it in my particular
situation
would be fairly close to the sink. Would someone have a look at
http://www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/switch.jpg please and confirm for me (or
otherwise, of course) that it's OK to put a switch in that location.

I happen to have a 45A double-pole switch surplus to requirements at the
moment so it may be overkill but I intend to use that as the isolator.

Cheers,

I would put it a bit further to the left just clear of the sink but
well away from any potential spray or splash. otherwise its ok on the
wall there.
If that is the feed cable I would keep it in line with that and a foot
higher than you indicated. Err on the safe side.

Thanks Noel, but if I go any further to the left it'll be in the window )

I'm actually going to take Christian's advice on this one because if I don't
have to do it then it's obviously less work for me )

Cheers.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
...
Because the FCU isn't going to be easily accessible in case of an
emergency,
commonsense (and maybe even the regs, I don't know) would dictate that I
put
in an isolator switch and the best place for it in my particular
situation
would be fairly close to the sink.

I wouldn't bother. There is no need for emergency switching. I would just
use the switch on the FCU, mounted on the floor or wall behind the plinth,
next to the Kickspace unit. If there is an electrical fire
(extraordinarily
unlikely), there's always the CU main switch, which will usually be safer
to
access than a local switch.

Christian.

That's brilliant Christian, thanks.

John.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John wrote:
It has to be fed from an FCU (fused, according to the installation
manual at 2A - never seen a domestic 2A fuse

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...ses/index.html

Well, I'll go t't foot of our stairs! Never knew they existed - I thought 3A
was the lowest. Cheers Dave

John.

Christian McArdle wrote:

I wouldn't bother. There is no need for emergency switching.

No, but there is a need for "switching off for mechanical maintenance"
[Reg 462-01-01] and because it's a motor circuit there needs to be "a
readily accessible device to switch off the motor and all associated
equipment including any automatic circuit breaker" [131-14-02].

use the switch on the FCU, mounted on the floor or wall behind the plinth,
next to the Kickspace unit.

That's not readily accessible and fails to meet regs, IMHO. The OP
should stick to Plan A, but note that it's recommended that accessories
should be at least 300 mm away from the edge of a sink or draining
board, which is clearly not met by the proposed location. Can it be
moved to the right of the sink unit?

2 A 'plug' fuses (BS 1362) but I'm sure a 3 A would be fine in this case
- it's only to protect the flexible cord to the appliance.

--
Andy

No, but there is a need for "switching off for mechanical maintenance"
[Reg 462-01-01]

Behind the plinth is no problem here. You need to remove it anyway to
maintain the unit.

and because it's a motor circuit there needs to be "a readily
accessible device to switch off the motor and all associated
equipment including any automatic circuit breaker" [131-14-02].

I wasn't aware of this applying to small domestic fans. I thought it was
intended to cover industrial machinery. If it does cover domestic fans, then
you might get away with fitting the KickSpace with a plug and just providing
a socket nearby.

Christian.

I wrote:

2 A 'plug' fuses (BS 1362) but I'm sure [...]

Oops, that was meant to be "2 A 'plug' fuses (BS 1362) are available but
...."


--
Andy

Christian McArdle wrote:

No, but there is a need for "switching off for mechanical maintenance"
[Reg 462-01-01]

Behind the plinth is no problem here. You need to remove it anyway to
maintain the unit.

True.

and because it's a motor circuit there needs to be "a readily
accessible device to switch off the motor and all associated
equipment including any automatic circuit breaker" [131-14-02].

I wasn't aware of this applying to small domestic fans. I thought it was
intended to cover industrial machinery. If it does cover domestic fans, then
you might get away with fitting the KickSpace with a plug and just providing
a socket nearby.

_Every_motor_ is what it says (c.f. bathroom fan isolators). I don't
see what you'd gain by using a plug & socket - it would still need to
be in a readily accessible position, so why not use a wall-mounted
isolator switch?

--
Andy

John wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John wrote:
It has to be fed from an FCU (fused, according to the installation
manual at 2A - never seen a domestic 2A fuse

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...ses/index.html

Well, I'll go t't foot of our stairs! Never knew they existed - I thought 3A
was the lowest. Cheers Dave

John.

Isnt that a 1000 w heater John? How could a 2 amp fuse supply that?
i would imagine you will just connect it to your power circuit which
is on a 32amp fuse unit.
the 2 amp fuse is only for the Christmas lights.

I don't see what you'd gain by using a plug & socket

Simply that it might circumvent the rule, as the regs stop at the socket.
Unfortunately, the device is physically plumbed in, so it might not count.

I was not aware that a bathroom fan isolator was intended for emergency
switching. I thought it was purely for maintenance isolation.

Christian.

wrote:

Isnt that a 1000 w heater John? How could a 2 amp fuse supply that?
i would imagine you will just connect it to your power circuit which
is on a 32amp fuse unit.
the 2 amp fuse is only for the Christmas lights.

hint: Google "Myson Kickspace Heater" and don't assume so much.

MBQ

Isnt that a 1000 w heater John? How could a 2 amp fuse supply that?

The KickSpace is available in many forms. Only the electric and duo (dual
fuel) models have heating elements. I presumed that the OP had the hydronic
type that only requires power to operate the fan.

The electric model range goes up to 3kW.

Christian.

_Every_motor_ is what it says (c.f. bathroom fan isolators). I don't
see what you'd gain by using a plug & socket - it would still need to
be in a readily accessible position, so why not use a wall-mounted
isolator switch?

Personally, if I did have to have a switch for this, I'd use a flat plate
switch mounted next to the heater on the plinth. I don't think I'd want such
an unnecessary switch mounted so close to the sink.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:

Simply that it might circumvent the rule, as the regs stop at the socket.

Not in this case. The heater is fixed electrical equipment and as such
is part of the electrical installation within the scope of BS 7671. The
regs stop at the point at which the flexible cord enters the appliance
(or perhaps at the point where the flexible cord is connected the the
FCU or flex outlet, etc. - discuss).

I was not aware that a bathroom fan isolator was intended for emergency
switching. I thought it was purely for maintenance isolation.

No, we agreed that emergency switching isn't relevant here. The fan
isolator is required to comply with 462-01-01 (switching off for
mechanical maintenance) and with 131-14-02, i.e. the fundamental
requirement for an accessible and safe means of switching off a motor
and any associated control gear (run-on timer, humidistat, etc.).

--
Andy

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:05:36 +0100, John wrote:
My missus has decided that the kitchen gets too cold in winter and as we're
in the middle of the kitchen refurb we've got a Myson Kickspace heater to go
in there.

Forgive me if I'm thinking about this the wrong way. But, if your
kitchen gets cold in the winter, can't you just turn the oven on
for a little while?
Or is more about style than substance?

Pete

--
.................................................. .........................
.. never trust a man who, when left alone ...... Pete Lynch .
.. in a room with a tea cosy ...... Marlow, England .
.. doesn't try it on (Billy Connolly) .....................................

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...

Can it be moved to the right of the sink unit?

Not really Andy. The space to the right of the sink unit is the only place
for our cooker to go. We have a free-standing gas cooker with eye-level
grill there, so really the only place for the switch is where I hoped it
could go. Any ideas?

John.

"Peter Lynch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:05:36 +0100, John wrote:
My missus has decided that the kitchen gets too cold in winter and as
we're
in the middle of the kitchen refurb we've got a Myson Kickspace heater to
go
in there.

Forgive me if I'm thinking about this the wrong way. But, if your
kitchen gets cold in the winter, can't you just turn the oven on
for a little while?
Or is more about style than substance?

Pete

You, Sir, are my kind of man )

She has actually done that for the last 18 years (no heating in the kitchen
in our last house either) but has now decided that enough is enough and that
she wants a proper heater in there. I can't cook (48 years old and just
mastered the art of beans on toast) and so the kitchen is her domain - if
she wants a heater, I will provide a heater. I'm just grateful that she is a
superb cook )

John.

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:05:36 +0100 someone who may be "John"
wrote this:-

My missus has decided that the kitchen gets too cold in winter and as we're
in the middle of the kitchen refurb we've got a Myson Kickspace heater to go
in there. It has to be fed from an FCU (fused, according to the installation
manual at 2A - never seen a domestic 2A fuse so may have to be 3A unless you
tell me otherwise) which will be behind the unit.

Why not put the switched fused connection unit at high level and
just put a cord outlet at low level behind the unit?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:00:35 +0100, John wrote:

"Peter Lynch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:05:36 +0100, John wrote:
My missus has decided that the kitchen gets too cold in winter and as
we're
in the middle of the kitchen refurb we've got a Myson Kickspace heater to
go
in there.

Forgive me if I'm thinking about this the wrong way. But, if your
kitchen gets cold in the winter, can't you just turn the oven on
for a little while?
Or is more about style than substance?

Pete

You, Sir, are my kind of man )

She has actually done that for the last 18 years (no heating in the kitchen
in our last house either) but has now decided that enough is enough and that
she wants a proper heater in there. I can't cook (48 years old and just
mastered the art of beans on toast) and so the kitchen is her domain - if
she wants a heater, I will provide a heater. I'm just grateful that she is a
superb cook )

John.


Sounds like you've got a sweet deal there. All your meals cooked
for the cost of a £200 heater. Has your wife got a sister?

Pete
--
.................................................. .........................
.. never trust a man who, when left alone ...... Pete Lynch .
.. in a room with a tea cosy ...... Marlow, England .
.. doesn't try it on (Billy Connolly) .....................................

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:05:36 +0100 someone who may be "John"
wrote this:-

My missus has decided that the kitchen gets too cold in winter and as
we're
in the middle of the kitchen refurb we've got a Myson Kickspace heater to
go
in there. It has to be fed from an FCU (fused, according to the
installation
manual at 2A - never seen a domestic 2A fuse so may have to be 3A unless
you
tell me otherwise) which will be behind the unit.

Why not put the switched fused connection unit at high level and
just put a cord outlet at low level behind the unit?

Good point David but it would still have to be in the same area, ie, near
the sink, so my original query still stands - could it go where I've marked
it in the photo?

Or maybe you mean *very* high level such as halfway up the wall or near the
ceiling? Maybe I need to take another photo showing the layout of the
kitchen because I know rules and regulations are there for safety and
everything but sometimes I just wonder if the rule makers have to put these
things into practice )

Hang on everyone while I take a piccy or two......

John.

"John" wrote in message
...

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:05:36 +0100 someone who may be "John"
wrote this:-

My missus has decided that the kitchen gets too cold in winter and as
we're
in the middle of the kitchen refurb we've got a Myson Kickspace heater to
go
in there. It has to be fed from an FCU (fused, according to the
installation
manual at 2A - never seen a domestic 2A fuse so may have to be 3A unless
you
tell me otherwise) which will be behind the unit.

Why not put the switched fused connection unit at high level and
just put a cord outlet at low level behind the unit?

Good point David but it would still have to be in the same area, ie, near
the sink, so my original query still stands - could it go where I've
marked it in the photo?

Or maybe you mean *very* high level such as halfway up the wall or near
the ceiling? Maybe I need to take another photo showing the layout of the
kitchen because I know rules and regulations are there for safety and
everything but sometimes I just wonder if the rule makers have to put
these things into practice )

Hang on everyone while I take a piccy or two......

John.

Right, here's some photos of the layout of the kitchen so that someone may
be able to suggest a suitable position for this switch. For your delectation
and enjoyment www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/kitchen9.jpg shows some of the
original wiring from when the house was built in 1971. How the hell it
passed I don't know - and I'm no electrician.

www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/kitchen10.jpg shows the route of another original
cable and an addition by the previous owner when he wanted a cooker point.

Now back to the current problem. www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/kitchen11.jpg
shows the problem I would have in moving the switch to the right as Andy
Wade suggested. The kitchen is small and so when the new sink goes in it'll
be going in the same place as the old one. On the other side of the cooker
will sit the dishwasher with a freezer on top of it. I know it's a bad place
for a freezer but it's the only place.

www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/kitchen12.jpg shows the layout the other way. When
the new worktop is in place, the washing machine will be where you see the
steps at the moment.

And while I'm at it, I may as well ask you what the hell I can do on the
opposite wall. Looking at www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/kitchen13.jpg I want to
put another double socket between these two sockets and another double at
the far side of the existing double but what sort of wall is this?
www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/kitchen14.jpg shows it's like some sort of
"egg-box" type construction. You'll see the existing grey T&E cable going
horizontally between the sockets but how the hell did they get it there?
Having taken off the sockets I know that they've used metal back-boxes and
(presumably) plastered them in place.

I've never seen anything like this before. How do I deal with the regs in
this case? I can't get a capping on the cables so what's the technique for
dealing with this?

All help gratefully received. Cheers,

John.

John wrote:

Not really Andy. The space to the right of the sink unit is the only place
for our cooker to go. We have a free-standing gas cooker with eye-level
grill there, so really the only place for the switch is where I hoped it
could go. Any ideas?

Well the "300 mm from sink" is only a recommendation. Your switch will
be rarely used and if you can put it up high enough no to get splashed
from the drainer I'd argue it's OK.

Are you going for a Part P application here? If so it's worth
discussing any potentially grey areas with whoever will inspect and test.

--
Andy

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:18:56 +0100 someone who may be "John"
wrote this:-

my original query still stands - could it go where I've marked
it in the photo?

I don't have anything to add to what others have said.

Or maybe you mean *very* high level such as halfway up the wall or near the
ceiling?

The question is, what is the switch for? My understanding, which may
be wrong, is that the controls of these units can be set so that the
fan will come on when the water temperature rises, the fan will then
go off and on via the room thermostat and when the water cools after
the boiler switches off the fan will go off again. The fan can also
be switched on "permanently" via the controls on the unit, for
summer use.

If my understanding is correct then the switch is not a functional
one, but one for maintenance which will usually be left on. It could
then be placed higher up the wall, or even by the ceiling, possibly
out of reach of someone standing by the drainer. It should be
labelled to indicate what it controls and the appliance should be
labelled to say where the switch is.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

John wrote:

8-----

Screwfix sell a battery powered radio control switch for waste
disposers. The press button sender is little bigger than a door bell
push and can be put almost anywhere. You might like to consider
something like that.

Edgar

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:05:28 +0100 someone who may be "John"
wrote this:-

Looking at www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/kitchen13.jpg I want to
put another double socket between these two sockets and another double at
the far side of the existing double but what sort of wall is this?
www.prestoncwu.co.uk/dvd/kitchen14.jpg shows it's like some sort of
"egg-box" type construction. You'll see the existing grey T&E cable going
horizontally between the sockets but how the hell did they get it there?
Having taken off the sockets I know that they've used metal back-boxes and
(presumably) plastered them in place.

I've never seen anything like this before. How do I deal with the regs in
this case? I can't get a capping on the cables so what's the technique for
dealing with this?

If the cables are to run horizontally between visible fittings
simply dig a bit of the cardboard out and insert cable, with
something thin over the top of it and a bit of filler. I presume the
wall is to be tiled.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Owain wrote:

Edgar Iredale wrote:
Screwfix sell a battery powered radio control switch for waste
disposers. The press button sender is little bigger than a door bell
push and can be put almost anywhere. You might like to consider
something like that.

But is it suitable for isolation?

Most electronic switches aren't.

Owain

The other bit plugs in. Unplug to isolate.
E.